End of Tattoo Debate

[Razorwing]

Well... since the thread where I was trying to explain the insights I had with tattoo warriors was locked because people couldn't engage in civil discourse, I will reveal a passage I just read in SotA that should end the debate over whether or not ALL T-Men get Supernatural Strength and Endurance or not.

This passage is in The section on Tattoo Magic on Page 142... 3rd Paragraph... 1st sentence.

The magic tattoos augment the recipient and when seven or more are applied, make him into a superhuman with Supernatural Strength and Endurance and an MDC body.

The rest of the paragraph goes on to state how T-Men acted historically in both Atlantean culture and in the various Splugorth Empires.

Now, I am sure that some will try to suggest that this section is trying to explain how Tattoo Magic works for Atlanteans alone, since it is being printed in a book about Atlanteans. However, at this point in the Tattoo Magic discription, the magic is only being referenced in general terms. The sentence above doesn't specify JUST Atlanteans... it states that recipients of magic tattoos are all transformed in this way... when the magic works for a given species (of which, only humans, elves and orges are known to have this magic work for them... and Atlanteans are still fundamentally human).

This means that the slave T-men OCCs presented in World Book 2 will also get Supernatural Strength and Endurance when they recieve their seventh tattoo... and that both write ups of the Tattoo Warriors in Conversion Book 2 (Endiku Longhair on Page 64 and Ares the Renegade on Page 104) are in error since neither was given the Supernatural Strength that both should receive.

As for the other observation I made about what happens to the Hit Points and SDC of these Tattoo Men when they become MDC beings, I will admit that I am basing it off of the MDC information presented in the Atlantean racial discription on Page 47 of SotA... namely the the section that deals with MDC for Atlanteans. While this might be a unique case exclusive to Atlanteans (since it is in their racial discription), it is not in the Natural Ablity section where one would expect unique abilities that ONLY apply to Atlanteans to be. No... it is instead in a section that confirms that Atlanteans are NOT normally MDC beings and explains how the magic transforms them from normal SDC mortals into MDC superhumans.

To recap this process, it appears that Hit Points and SDC (from physical skills) skills are also converted into MDC and added to what is provided by the Tattoos, plus 1d6 MDC per level. Healing damage taken for MDC beings in this manner seems to be at the normal rate for their species (same rate at which they heal Hit Points/SDC).

Since the Atlantean race is still fundamentally human (numerous places within numerous books keeps saying that Atlanteans are still human, even if they are more advanced), it is reasonable to conclude that if the Tattoos function in this manner for Atlanteans, it should function in the same way for the less advanced humans that are the prefered reipients used by the Splugorth. Furthermore, since humans and Ogres seem to be related (with Ogres being less advanced as the Atlanteans are more advanced), then logically the interaction should also behave the same for them as well. Finally, by referencing the above passage from SotA where it states that all who recieve magical tattoos are tranformed in the same way, it would suggest that the traformation is more or less the same for all who use the magic, which would include the rare Elves forced to use this magic (due to the rather severe penalties, it seems unlikely that any elf would willingly get this magic).

I am hoping that this time people will be more civil when discussing all of this, but I do believe that at least as far as the first part is concerned... ALL T-Men O.C.C.s (whether Atlantean or Splugorth Slave) have Supernatural Strength and Endurance. That debate seems definitively ended.

[Shark_Force]

if it doesn't explicitly say they heal at their rate for HP/SDC, they should heal at the standard for MDC monsters (as i recall, that's 2d6 per 24 hours, though it might be 1d6. though it's hidden away somewhere... can't remember if it's in the conversion book or another one).

anyways, there is a standard for MDC beings, and if the various tattoo OCCs are not specified to be different (i don't know if they are in the book you're quoting or not), that would be their rate.

[Greyaxe]

Personally I like the idea of Humans becoming MDC supernatural beings when receiving more than 6 tattoos. It makes the magic more coveted than other magics in my opinion. Also. based on your argument i would agree that Atlanteans, Ogers and Humans would all receive this benefit, but not other races.

[Razorwing]

I am basing my rate of healing on the fact that Atlanteans heal MDC at the same rate as they do for Hit Points/SDC. this is in the natural abilities area, since they heal faster than normal... 2d6+10 per 24 hours.

[eliakon]

Well... since the thread where I was trying to explain the insights I had with tattoo warriors was locked because people couldn't engage in civil discourse, I will reveal a passage I just read in SotA that should end the debate over whether or not ALL T-Men get Supernatural Strength and Endurance or not.

This passage is in The section on Tattoo Magic on Page 142... 3rd Paragraph... 1st sentence.

The magic tattoos augment the recipient and when seven or more are applied, make him into a superhuman with Supernatural Strength and Endurance and an MDC body.

The rest of the paragraph goes on to state how T-Men acted historically in both Atlantean culture and in the various Splugorth Empires.

<major Snip>

I am hoping that this time people will be more civil when discussing all of this, but I do believe that at least as far as the first part is concerned... ALL T-Men O.C.C.s (whether Atlantean or Splugorth Slave) have Supernatural Strength and Endurance. That debate seems definitively ended.

I would say that yes, indeed you have found the long sought after book quote on the issue.
Especially since it is in a section that is talking about T-men in the Splugorth Empires, as they preferentially use Ogres and regular Humans.

[Shark_Force]

I am basing my rate of healing on the fact that Atlanteans heal MDC at the same rate as they do for Hit Points/SDC. this is in the natural abilities area, since they heal faster than normal... 2d6+10 per 24 hours.

hmmm... pretty much GM's call then. it could be argued that the atlanteans heal at their normal rate because it is an improvement... and it could be argued that they don't. i'm certainly not going to get into it.

[Axelmania]

I thought the CB had established a 2D6/day MDC regen baseline when we lacked specifics.

[Shark_Force]

I thought the CB had established a 2D6/day MDC regen baseline when we lacked specifics.

read above. the book apparently gives specifics, but only for true atlanteans... and the specifics make it unclear whether we use that baseline or not. thus, as i said, making it more or less the GM's call; do they think that's supposed to be a general rule that all tattoo OCCs use the base healing rate for their race, or do they use their natural healing rate except in MDC only when it is greater?

really, it shouldn't be *that* surprising that the rules are unclear...

[Razorwing]

I am curious as to where this standard healing rate for Supernatural beings is... I've looked through Conversion Book 1 (which I am admittedly assuming was where it was), but I seem to be missing it. Anyone know what book and page number it is on?

[The Beast]

In the original CB it's on page 22, first paragraph under the Converting an SDC creature into a mega-damage structure bullet. I'm not sure where it is in the revised version.

[Shark_Force]

revised has it on page 56, second paragraph of "Monster M.D.C.[sup]TM[/sup] Conversions"

[shadrak]

Well... since the thread where I was trying to explain the insights I had with tattoo warriors was locked because people couldn't engage in civil discourse, I will reveal a passage I just read in SotA that should end the debate over whether or not ALL T-Men get Supernatural Strength and Endurance or not.

This passage is in The section on Tattoo Magic on Page 142... 3rd Paragraph... 1st sentence.

The magic tattoos augment the recipient and when seven or more are applied, make him into a superhuman with Supernatural Strength and Endurance and an MDC body.

The rest of the paragraph goes on to state how T-Men acted historically in both Atlantean culture and in the various Splugorth Empires.

Now, I am sure that some will try to suggest that this section is trying to explain how Tattoo Magic works for Atlanteans alone, since it is being printed in a book about Atlanteans. However, at this point in the Tattoo Magic discription, the magic is only being referenced in general terms. The sentence above doesn't specify JUST Atlanteans... it states that recipients of magic tattoos are all transformed in this way... when the magic works for a given species (of which, only humans, elves and orges are known to have this magic work for them... and Atlanteans are still fundamentally human).

This means that the slave T-men OCCs presented in World Book 2 will also get Supernatural Strength and Endurance when they recieve their seventh tattoo... and that both write ups of the Tattoo Warriors in Conversion Book 2 (Endiku Longhair on Page 64 and Ares the Renegade on Page 104) are in error since neither was given the Supernatural Strength that both should receive.

As for the other observation I made about what happens to the Hit Points and SDC of these Tattoo Men when they become MDC beings, I will admit that I am basing it off of the MDC information presented in the Atlantean racial discription on Page 47 of SotA... namely the the section that deals with MDC for Atlanteans. While this might be a unique case exclusive to Atlanteans (since it is in their racial discription), it is not in the Natural Ablity section where one would expect unique abilities that ONLY apply to Atlanteans to be. No... it is instead in a section that confirms that Atlanteans are NOT normally MDC beings and explains how the magic transforms them from normal SDC mortals into MDC superhumans.

To recap this process, it appears that Hit Points and SDC (from physical skills) skills are also converted into MDC and added to what is provided by the Tattoos, plus 1d6 MDC per level. Healing damage taken for MDC beings in this manner seems to be at the normal rate for their species (same rate at which they heal Hit Points/SDC).

Since the Atlantean race is still fundamentally human (numerous places within numerous books keeps saying that Atlanteans are still human, even if they are more advanced), it is reasonable to conclude that if the Tattoos function in this manner for Atlanteans, it should function in the same way for the less advanced humans that are the prefered reipients used by the Splugorth. Furthermore, since humans and Ogres seem to be related (with Ogres being less advanced as the Atlanteans are more advanced), then logically the interaction should also behave the same for them as well. Finally, by referencing the above passage from SotA where it states that all who recieve magical tattoos are tranformed in the same way, it would suggest that the traformation is more or less the same for all who use the magic, which would include the rare Elves forced to use this magic (due to the rather severe penalties, it seems unlikely that any elf would willingly get this magic).

I am hoping that this time people will be more civil when discussing all of this, but I do believe that at least as far as the first part is concerned... ALL T-Men O.C.C.s (whether Atlantean or Splugorth Slave) have Supernatural Strength and Endurance. That debate seems definitively ended.

i need to get secrets of the atlanteans...

it always annoyed me that an undead slayer got SN strength and endurance but a T-man did not in the original Atlantis book.

[Razorwing]

i need to get secrets of the atlanteans...

it always annoyed me that an undead slayer got SN strength and endurance but a T-man did not in the original Atlantis book.

In all fairness... it doesn't exactly say they do in their OOC write ups... and even Conversion Book 2 failed to give an Undead Slayer such strength. To be perfectly blunt, the early works in the Rifts setting haven't aged that well compared to the new material being produced. Look at how Cyber-Knights were first portrayed and how they are now with RUE... a very stark difference. This can be seen with many of the revisted OCCs presented in RUE and now with SotA... which is one of the reasons I would like to see a revisit of other older O.C.C.s from the early years of the setting and have them updated. Even if this is just a serialized article in the Rifter, seeing these older OCCs being brought up to date with current material can help reinvigorate interest in many of the older O.C.C.s like the T-Man slaves.

One thing I think would help players of various T-Man slave O.C.C.s would be something similar to the Family Skills presented for Knights and Paladins in Palladium Fantasy. For Knights and Paladins, they get some skills that reflect the interests of their family line, helping to flesh out such details for players who have little idea who their character is. For a T-Man Slave, such tables and skills could reflect a little of the life they had before they were captured... and even have a chart for when they were captured so there is an idea of how long the character has been a slave.

Maybe the T-Man was an apprentice wizard who has had his connection to magic overwritten by the tattoos he has now... surely he still has some knowledge of his apprenticeship... some skills and maybe even spell knowledge (which he can't use, but might be able to teach to others). Maybe he was a farmer... or a tribal warrior... or a woodsman... or even a Coalition Soldier/Civilian. With Atlantis located in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean, it can send slavers to both Americas, Europe and even Africa with little difficulty... so maybe the T-Man slave you are playing is from a very different land. It is even possible that the T-Man slave is from another world or dimension (humans are not unique to Earth alone)… and it is even suggested in SotA that there are some True Atlanteans enslaved by the Splugorth (almost an entire clan was captured during the exodus from Atlantis millennia ago). So many ways for these O.C.C.s to be fleshed out into more than just a slave T-Man. Of course, such tables and options will be most useful to those who like to let chance and fate decide what their character's background is like (and even then, only paints in broad strokes... the details are still for the player to decide).

In short, there is still so much more that these OCCs can provide... if they got a little attention and some much needed updating.