Forums of the Megaverse®

Let's talk about Palladium's foremost river, and what it might be like if players were to traverse it's length from the Inland Sea to the Great Falls in the OK Mountains.

Firstly, we have to presume that the River really behaves like real-world rivers and thus flows from the mountains and out into the Sea (let us also presume that there is a portion of it that originates in the Mountains and flows over the Falls towards the dry interior, thus not ignoring/negating some established facts). So... journeying from the Inland Sea to the Falls would involve going upstream.

What I'm mostly curious about though is the geography. This is a very old river (no pun intended... its course is evidently unchanged for the past several millennia), so do we think it might look like the Colorado (running through a deep gorge carved out of the rock) or the Mississippi (wide, flat, with flood-able banks on either side), or combinations of the two? Where might we encounter rapids, or other falls? What is the flow like?

Is there a potamologist in the house?

I'm writing up a piece on the river now; I decided that the section of the OK in the 'curve of the mountains' was about 1500 ft higher than the "lowlands" to the north & east. After i'd done that, I was pointed to the Great Waterfall mentioned in a Rifter and I feel justified in my idea.

Braden Campbell wrote:Let's talk about Palladium's foremost river, and what it might be like if players were to traverse it's length from the Inland Sea to the Great Falls in the OK Mountains.

Firstly, we have to presume that the River really behaves like real-world rivers and thus flows from the mountains and out into the Sea (let us also presume that there is a portion of it that originates in the Mountains and flows over the Falls towards the dry interior, thus not ignoring/negating some established facts). So... journeying from the Inland Sea to the Falls would involve going upstream.

What I'm mostly curious about though is the geography. This is a very old river (no pun intended... its course is evidently unchanged for the past several millennia), so do we think it might look like the Colorado (running through a deep gorge carved out of the rock) or the Mississippi (wide, flat, with flood-able banks on either side), or combinations of the two? Where might we encounter rapids, or other falls? What is the flow like?

Is there a potamologist in the house?

I have a somewhat unique familiarity of this river, having mapped the Old Kingdom River for my Eastern Territory map, my Timiro Kingdom map, and my unreleased Inland Sea map. I can personally attest to how unnatural its path is. In my most-recent map, it took me something like six tries to get my erosion software to make it follow its canon course.

The Old Kingdom River flows toward and through two mountain ranges, and in between it bends away from a nearby coast and crosses over to one much further away. Rivers don't do that in real life. In order to make the erosion program do so, I had to cut deep ravines through the foothills and mountain ranges, allowing the river to pass through. Much of the Eastern Territory had to have an elevated terrain next to the Old Kingdom River to prevent it cutting through and into the ocean.

Its canon description in Eastern Territories is wide and pretty gentle, with fertile land on both sides until it reaches the Shattered Mountains, whereupon it forms the southern border of the barren Howling Lands. After that, it seems to be pretty wide and flat up to where it dumps into the Inland Sea. This final section is fortified by Llorn, with stone towers every 20 miles, but there's no description of what this section of the river is like. There is regular trade all along its length, though, from the Inland Sea through Wisdom and further up-river to the Peningshir lands.

The upstream limit of navigation is difficult to pinpoint, but both banks seem to get less civilized the closer one gets to the Old Kingdom Mountains. Where it crosses this mountain range, there is a canon waterfall. There are a couple of small lakes along its course north of Timiro, and another small lake on the upstream side of the Old Kingdom Mountains.

All of this is canon up to this point, and if you need the references, I can probably dig them up. Farther upstream from the Old Kingdom Mountains, I haven't done much research, but if/when I map the Nimro area, I'll be studying this river some more.

Excellent help. Thanks.

I just wanted to have a rough idea of things should my players decided to take the river-route as opposed to the OK overland route.

Unnatural path might suggest geoenginerring. Perhaps the elves or dwarves dug out those passages through the mountains in order to redirect the river to a more useful course.

glitterboy2098 wrote:Unnatural path might suggest geoenginerring. Perhaps the elves or dwarves dug out those passages through the mountains in order to redirect the river to a more useful course.

I had a similar thought, but my mind went more to its strange course having had something yo do with the effort to subdue the old ones.

I wonder if the Elves and/or Dwarves did any engineering upon the river that might help explain its unusual course. Both Empires existed peacefully for thousands of years... before going to war for nearly two thousand years near the end of their empires... surely they have used the river as a source of water for aqueducts and such... engineering portions of it (magically and with more mundane means) to better provide for their cities and villages along its banks.

Already it has been mentioned in the Eastern Territories book that a portion of the river has already begun to move some distance to the east than it used to be near the Old City Ruins, suggesting that the course it currently has isn't as natural as it seems (and whatever kept it where it was has since faded or weakened allowing the river to start carving a proper path towards the eastern coast.

Just speculations mind you... there is no way to know for sure until we get an Old Kingdom book... or Palladium decides to explore some of the other rich time periods of the world's past (perhaps a Palladium Fantasy equivalent to Chaos Earth?).

Situated along the far western reaches of the Old Kingdom River, Gaal-lunt City was once a great Elven metropolis with an estimated populace of nearly 1 million inhabitants. It never fell to the Dwarves during the Great War, but its populace was depleted by the war effort. After the war ended, Gaal-lunt City was taken over by Kobolds from the fledgling Kobold Empire where it served as their eastern capital for a time before their empire collapsed. After the collapse of the Kobold Empire, survivors of all races came to the city, bringing its population up to close to 72’000 where it has remained to this day.
Gaal-Lunt City controls about 100 miles of river with extensive farmland on both shores. Two dozen small towns & farming villages are under the protection of the city & its rulers. They operate several forts along the river, charge taxes & generally operate like a functional city-state. Population; 72’000; 26% Kobold, 14% Goblin, 10 % Orc, 20% Human, 16% Eandroth, 7% Ogre, 7% other.
While any of the Human nations would certainly brand Gaal-lunt City as a monster city, it has been ruled by many races over the years, including dozens of humans, a dragon, and two sphinxes. While the transfer of power is often quite bloody, the general citizens are not affected overmuch, and life continues as it had. Kobolds still make up a large portion of Gaal-Lunt City; they are city elders, merchants, priests and other members of the city’s elite. Few Kobolds are labourers and most of those are apprentice armourers who will in turn go on to become members of the entrenched Kobold elite. Goblins, Hob-goblins and Orcs make up the vast bulk of the unskilled labour force; they work as farmers, porters, and perform jobs none of the other races will do. Goblins, Hob-Goblins & Orcs are not officially lower class citizens, but they have little clout to wield in the city. Humans and Eandroth comprise a noticeable segments of the city’s population. Humans are merchants, civic leaders, and mercenaries. The Eandroth mostly confine themselves to trade, with the odd Rogue serving as a mercenary.
Gaal-Lunt City controls a number of fine vineyards on the north shore, and vast farms and textile plantations along the south shore. The city itself is mostly a trade center, although there are a number of Kobold-run foundries & blacksmith collectives that churn out weapons for the area. As a result of the strong Kobold presence, the town militia is equipped with the very best Kobold weapons & armour; armour has +1 AR + 30 SDC, all weapons are +2 to dam & + 2 to st/pr. Kobold weapons and armour are also 20% cheaper than book price.
The current ruler of Gaal-Lut City is a sphinx who is known as The Acacepth Fehumma Tiss. He has ruled Gaal-Lunt for 75 years, since the untimely demise of the last ruler for whom Fehumma served as city treasurer.

If we go by the description of the Goron (Monsters & Animals, pg 93), which lives all along the river's banks, then the Old Kingdom river is flanked by swamps and marshlands.

But I also appreciate Hotrod's geographical thoughts, especially that the the Eastern Territory is at a significantly higher elevation than the Old Kingdom.

Also... what do we make of the river's end? does it simply peter out or might it plunge underground?

Plunge underground and then goes to the great rift.

Braden Campbell wrote:If we go by the description of the Goron (Monsters & Animals, pg 93), which lives all along the river's banks, then the Old Kingdom river is flanked by swamps and marshlands.

But I also appreciate Hotrod's geographical thoughts, especially that the the Eastern Territory is at a significantly higher elevation than the Old Kingdom.

Also... what do we make of the river's end? does it simply peter out or might it plunge underground?

Well, the river itself feeds into the Great Inland Sea, so that's where it ends. I think I didn't precisely talk about the relative elevations. The river itself, right where it goes through the Old Kingdom Mountains, goes through a waterfall. I interpret this to mean that it falls from west to east, and that the Eastern Territory and the Old Kingdom lowlands are at a lower elevation than the headwaters of the Old Kingdom river, which are in the vicinity of Nimiro.

Funny, as I see the Great Falls as falling east to west (based sorely on the map illustration). This would mean that the Old Kingdom River originates in the mountains and then flows in two directions: one arm going eastward and the other running westward...

Braden Campbell wrote:Funny, as I see the Great Falls as falling east to west (based sorely on the map illustration). This would mean that the Old Kingdom River originates in the mountains and then flows in two directions: one arm going eastward and the other running westward...

Such an interpretation would make it two rivers, not one. It's theoretically possible for something like a lake to have two separate outlets going to two different destinations, but the physics of erosion over time will make one outlet win and the other outlet peter out.

Of course, if you go with a supernatural interpretation of the river, it could make for some interesting scenarios where river travel is concerned.

Or... the Great Falls go backwards, because... fantasy realm

If that's not the case though, this gigantic river originates in the middle of dry savanah?

Braden Campbell wrote:Or... the Great Falls go backwards, because... fantasy realm

If that's not the case though, this gigantic river originates in the middle of dry savanah?

Well the main book says that area is now a warm, humid land so it's not exactly dry.

I had this thought last night: perhaps the source of the Old Kingdom River is currently unknown. A campaign could be set up where the PC's are trying to secure their place in history by located and documenting the source (Burton & Speke's adventures in discovering the source of the Nile is the first example that pops to mind).

This might also be of some relevance. It's a look at the humble beginnings of the world's great rivers.

http://www.amusingplanet.com/2015/04/th ... ivers.html

I have magical rivers that have different parts travelling different directions in the GNW, just like the great river. I don't explain it or I just blame it on the faeries. This usually amuses the players, especially if they were heading upstream.

Braden Campbell wrote:I had this thought last night: perhaps the source of the Old Kingdom River is currently unknown. A campaign could be set up where the PC's are trying to secure their place in history by located and documenting the source (Burton & Speke's adventures in discovering the source of the Nile is the first example that pops to mind).

This might also be of some relevance. It's a look at the humble beginnings of the world's great rivers.

http://www.amusingplanet.com/2015/04/th ... ivers.html

My recent Rifter article on the city of Khemennu includes a Hook, Line & Sinker about searching for the source of the Old Kingdom River. In that adventure it is thought to be located somewhere in the 'Khnumian Hills' north of Mount Nimro.

Are there any known deities that take special interest in rivers? Maybe it’s Ippotomi‘s will that guides its course?

acreRake wrote:Are there any known deities that take special interest in rivers? Maybe it’s Ippotomi‘s will that guides its course?

She's more of a southern deity. I'd lean more towards the Church of Light and Dark... though, hey, you might also have some of Aco and the Juggernaut's former pantheonmates laying out the course in ages gone by and maintaining it from their current state.

For whatever reason I always went with the old, slow, meandering with wide flood valleys and fertile soil. More Mississippi or Nile.

RockJock wrote:For whatever reason I always went with the old, slow, meandering with wide flood valleys and fertile soil. More Mississippi or Nile.

I have a feeling that was the intention for this river based on some examples listed above but with little thought put into things like erosion and river migrations.

UPDATE: I have solved the mystery of how the Old Kingdom River can apparently flow in two directions at once: we are actually looking at two rivers!

The source for both is the area of the Great Falls (flowing down from the Old Kingdom Mountains). Flowing easterly from that source is the Old Kingdom River... but flowing westwards from there is the Dragon River (this is taken from Mount Nimro, page 118; the Kingdom of Giants is preparing an invasion of "the Old Kingdom west of the Dragon River, where they hope to secure a route to the Sea of Scarlet Waters")

See also, "the Dragon River (which forms the Western border of the Eastern Territory and bisects the Old Kingdom)." [Nimro, 115]

Therefore, I propose that the Old Kingdom River begins in the mountains and eventually empties into the Inland Sea... while the Dragon River begins in the mountains and flows westward until it empties.... well... we don't know yet.

Braden Campbell wrote:UPDATE: I have solved the mystery of how the Old Kingdom River can apparently flow in two directions at once: we are actually looking at two rivers!

The source for both is the area of the Great Falls (flowing down from the Old Kingdom Mountains). Flowing easterly from that source is the Old Kingdom River... but flowing westwards from there is the Dragon River (this is taken from Mount Nimro, page 118; the Kingdom of Giants is preparing an invasion of "the Old Kingdom west of the Dragon River, where they hope to secure a route to the Sea of Scarlet Waters")

See also, "the Dragon River (which forms the Western border of the Eastern Territory and bisects the Old Kingdom)." [Nimro, 115]

Therefore, I propose that the Old Kingdom River begins in the mountains and eventually empties into the Inland Sea... while the Dragon River begins in the mountains and flows westward until it empties.... well... we don't know yet.

However, Island at the Edge of the World refers to it as the Old Kingdom River before it reaches the falls. Could it also be
the river's original name was the Dragon River? I doubt during the Age of Elves it was called the New Kingdom River. As for it
source water, it doesn't have to start from the mountains, perhaps it started underground or from several springs/streams
merging together.

"No, no, no! The mystery is solved! Solved I tell you...."

:runs naked from the scholastic debate:

Braden Campbell wrote:UPDATE: I have solved the mystery of how the Old Kingdom River can apparently flow in two directions at once: we are actually looking at two rivers!

The source for both is the area of the Great Falls (flowing down from the Old Kingdom Mountains). Flowing easterly from that source is the Old Kingdom River... but flowing westwards from there is the Dragon River (this is taken from Mount Nimro, page 118; the Kingdom of Giants is preparing an invasion of "the Old Kingdom west of the Dragon River, where they hope to secure a route to the Sea of Scarlet Waters")

See also, "the Dragon River (which forms the Western border of the Eastern Territory and bisects the Old Kingdom)." [Nimro, 115]

Therefore, I propose that the Old Kingdom River begins in the mountains and eventually empties into the Inland Sea... while the Dragon River begins in the mountains and flows westward until it empties.... well... we don't know yet.

Sorry to be a nay-sayer, but if the Dragon River specifically covers the bit that forms the border of the Eastern Territory and the bit that is near Mount Nimro then it must be all one river! I always figured that the Dragon River was the old name for the Old Kingdom River, as Reagren Wright says, and that the giants (and presumably many of the other monster races throughout the Old Kingdom) still know it by that name.

I still think that it flows from Mount Nimro and into the Inland Sea, just as it appears on the map. The falls don't flow backwards, it is just a misinterpretation of the map in Island at the Edge of the World - the falls are located on a part of the river that flows North-easterly, and have been represented on the map by some parallel lines. Because of the angle, it looks similar to how one might draw a waterfall if it were being represented 3-dimensionally. But it's not - think of it as just looking from above. It's just kind of optical illusion. It's more confusing because the mountains are drawn as if they are side on, which is just a common way of representing mountains on many fantasy maps. Its just a matter of the limitation of this kind of map.

I figure that the whole area around Mount Nimro and the southern 'lowlands' is much higher than the rest of the Old Kingdom due to volcanic stuff (technical term there), and that's why the river can flow that way. At Mount Nimro the river might be relatively small, but is fed by the run-off from the Old Kingdom mountains at it passes alongside them until it grows into a major waterway and plunges through a gap in the mountains and over the falls into the much lower eastern lowlands. That's good enough for me!