Sanctum assault on the CS

[flatline]

Does knowing the author help get better search results? The post about flooding the burbs with magic pigeons was probably mine from several years ago.

Here are some other ideas worth considering that, while more contrived and more difficult to accomplish, have some advantages over the simplicity of the magic pigeon strategy.

Eternal Flame is impervious to everything (even Negate Magic). You just have to figure out how to get it where you want it without getting caught.

Making sawdust from wood enchanted with Ironwood (or wood created via Create Wood if house rules say the resulting wood counts as magic), packing it around a small explosive, and air-bursting it above the burbs (aka, magical "dirty" bomb?). Delivery methods could be telescope + Teleport Lesser, mundane medium or long range missiles, a fast flyer (e.g. Cosmic Armor combined with Invisibility Superior perhaps?), or simply grinding it really fine and releasing it high up in the atmosphere a couple hundred miles upwind of Chi-Town (made more difficult due to the absence of weather satellites, but an Air Warlock might be able to help with that).

Find some way to cast Memory Bank on CS personnel. They don't benefit in any way, but until it expires (3 months per level), they'll probably be quarantined since their presence will foul the senses of dog boys and psi stalkers. CS treatment of these personnel might even be worse since the CS might not be able to identify the spell and might assume that it's something worse. In an ancient campaign, we had a TW gun that implanted memories into targets who failed their save (we used it for advertising, but it would work for this, too). Your mileage may vary. Can also be put in a talisman.

None of these have the simplicity of the magic pigeon strategy, but depending on the circumstances (and the resources available), might yield interesting results.

--flatline

[flatline]

http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/foru ... 0#p2735274

Here's a post from 2013 that's part of another thread where we discuss it a bit, but I seem to remember a dedicated thread. I'll keep searching.

--flatline

[flatline]

http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/foru ... 8&t=141972

Here's another thread where it's discussed in depth. Created by Killer Cyborg in 2014.

Edit: nevermind. this thread was inspired by the idea, but was actually looking for other ideas. Sorry.

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

I like the pigeon spamming idea. It's a neat thought exercise, and it could be a nifty basis for an adventure, series of adventures, a campaign, or simply background flavor.

My only objections are when people make claims such as "the only reason why nobody has done this is because the CS has plot armor," or "this attack would work according to canon," or "the only way to stop the pigeons would be Negate magic," and so forth, because such an attack would necessarily include a LOT of factors which are not adequately addressed in canon.
Claiming absoluteness in a situation where there are a large number of unknown factors is something that does not logically work.
Might a magic pigeon attack work to distract the CS?
Sure.
But would it definitely?
Nope.

In any case, if I was going to attempt to distract the CS with this kind of magical attack, I'd go with spamming Magic Pigeon over Sanctum. The low casting level of Magic Pigeon would make it easier to find casters able to cast it, the range is better, and so on and so forth.

Or I might go with Anti-Magic Cloud, since that's got a massive area of effect. You wouldn't be able to get as many casters, but you'd only really need the one. Of course, the utility of this would depend on what kind of attack you had planned.

Or, if I wanted to get really fancy and high-budget, I'd consider drawing an enormous magic circle around all of CS territory, activating it, and making it indestructible via the permanence ward.

[Axelmania]

The attraction of sanctum is the longer duration and range.

I figure people try both things but the CS has BTS Nega-psychica on staff from "the past" using their spell equivalent powers to destroy them.

[HWalsh]

The attraction of sanctum is the longer duration and range.

I figure people try both things but the CS has BTS Nega-psychica on staff from "the past" using their spell equivalent powers to destroy them.

I assume the CS doesn't use anything that originates from outside Rifts Earth. No BTS, no NB, no Wormwood, etc.

[Killer Cyborg]

The attraction of sanctum is the longer duration and range.

I figure people try both things but the CS has BTS Nega-psychica on staff from "the past" using their spell equivalent powers to destroy them.

I assume the CS doesn't use anything that originates from outside Rifts Earth. No BTS, no NB, no Wormwood, etc.

They'd have to know where it originated, though.

[HWalsh]

The attraction of sanctum is the longer duration and range.

I figure people try both things but the CS has BTS Nega-psychica on staff from "the past" using their spell equivalent powers to destroy them.

I assume the CS doesn't use anything that originates from outside Rifts Earth. No BTS, no NB, no Wormwood, etc.

They'd have to know where it originated, though.

While that's true I'm not sure that they can't find out. Also I'd find it really convenient that the CS can tell the difference between Rifts Earth humans and Heroes Unlimited humans (with no powers) but can't figure out BTS Psychics from Rifts Earth Psychics.

Alternatively it would seem convenient that they never found out that it's an alien discipline when they're anti-anything not of Rifts Earth.

Seems like a series of very lucky coincidences that culminate to giving the CS an extra layer of defense.

[Eagle]

Hi guys, I'm new here.

I'd suggest one reason why the Coalition isn't completely destroyed is because most of the people with the mentality and desire to attack them, start off with dumb moves like the pigeon attack. You've got some know-it-all mage who thinks he's come up with an absolutely brilliant idea, and he fires off a dozen pigeon spells, laughing to himself the whole time. He thinks this is fun, and he's going to keep doing this for the next few days. The next morning he goes out and does it again.

Two hours later he gets his head blown off by a Coalition sniper.

How, you ask? Because he ignored the clearly-defined advantages the CS has. Not plot armor, but stuff that has been on paper for years and years. Sadly, the mage suffers from a big limitation -- he isn't allowed to read the GM section of the game books. He doesn't know what the Coalition can do, because he's operating from rumors and half-truths. The mage has never read the books at all.

This is basically the inverse of the old "hey guard, he's sick" trick. One guy pretends to be sick, so the guard comes in and the other guy whacks him on the back of the head. The ploy works, so presumably the guard doesn't survive (or has a concussion and doesn't remember what happened), so he can't tell the other guards, so the ploy keeps working. This is the same thing in reverse. The mage tries the attack, gets killed, and so never tells anybody else about his great idea. The next guy who thinks of it therefore has no warning, and he tries it too, with the same result.

So how does the CS know? What is their defense against endless magic pigeon spam? Psi-Stalkers, spies, and psychics with Clairvoyance and Object Read.

So somebody detects a source of magic coming from inside a random guy's apartment. The poor sap left his window open and a magic pigeon flew in. A CS kill team busts in the door, ready to blast anybody they see. The only thing there is this little bird. The Psi-Stalker points at it and goes "magic!" Thinking it's a shape-changed wizard or something, everybody opens fire full-auto. The poor apartment is blown to smithereens, but the bird is just fine. Eventually they stop shooting, and stand around wondering what to do. All across Chi Town, this happens a dozen times or so within like a 10 minute span. Then somebody realizes "hey this is just a magic spell, it's not a creature."

At that point, you bring in your psionic investigations team. We'll say that Chi Town has at least a dozen 4th or 5th level psy sensitives that they can bring in to investigate crap like this. They all come in, see the bird, and use Clairvoyance. "I'm thinking of the person who cast this spell..." They'll have about a 2/3 chance of getting some info. If you have a dozen people doing it, about 8 of them should get some information regarding the person who cast it. One guy sees an image of a man around 20 years old, he's scruffy and unshaven, and wearing the gear of a ley line walker. He's sitting in a chair in a darkened room, drinking a beer. Another psychic sees the same man walking down a cobblestone street, having had too much to drink. There is a blonde woman with him. Another psychic sees the man on a hoverbike, zipping past an area thick with trees, etc, etc. After their visions, they share their information and begin to get a picture of who they're after. And so begins another episode of the long-running television series, CSI: Chi Town.

They're going to piece together who he is and where he is (generally) over the course of a few hours to a few days. They're going to put together a profile on him like the FBI tracking down Buffalo Bill. They'll look at photos of towns that are known to have cobblestone streets, looking for any identifying marks or buildings that look familiar. They'll look at towns near forests. Once they've got a pretty good idea of his location, they'll contact their spies in the area to see if there are any young line walkers who ride a hoverbike and have a taste for trashy blondes. "Oh yeah, there's a guy like that here." Twenty minutes later and you've got 5 Coalition kill teams moving in. Psi-Stalkers who have seen the birds will know this guy's "scent". When they pick him up, everybody moves in for the kill. They'll just blow him away when he steps outside his front door.

This isn't plot armor. It's just the fact that it's a major city that has a lot of resources. And for a cheesy distraction like this to have any effect, you have to do it A LOT. One magic pigeon isn't going to do anything. You have to hit them with hundreds for it really become more than a minor annoyance. At that point, the odds swing against the mage. They're going to find a clue as to where you are, and they will send someone to kill you. This dramatically reduces the life expectancy of the guys who are inclined to pull this sort of thing. The mages who end up surviving are the ones who don't throw rocks at the hornet's nest.

And that's why the plan wouldn't work.

[Blue_Lion]

The attraction of sanctum is the longer duration and range.

I figure people try both things but the CS has BTS Nega-psychica on staff from "the past" using their spell equivalent powers to destroy them.

I assume the CS doesn't use anything that originates from outside Rifts Earth. No BTS, no NB, no Wormwood, etc.

They'd have to know where it originated, though.

While that's true I'm not sure that they can't find out. Also I'd find it really convenient that the CS can tell the difference between Rifts Earth humans and Heroes Unlimited humans (with no powers) but can't figure out BTS Psychics from Rifts Earth Psychics.

Alternatively it would seem convenient that they never found out that it's an alien discipline when they're anti-anything not of Rifts Earth.

Seems like a series of very lucky coincidences that culminate to giving the CS an extra layer of defense.

Wait where does it say they can tell a human is from HU and not rifts?

[Eagle]

Presumably the guy from the parallel Earth shows up and says something about it without knowing any better. "Hey I'm from an Earth, but not this one." "Oh really? Come with me..."

[HWalsh]

Hi guys, I'm new here.

I'd suggest one reason why the Coalition isn't completely destroyed is because most of the people with the mentality and desire to attack them, start off with dumb moves like the pigeon attack. You've got some know-it-all mage who thinks he's come up with an absolutely brilliant idea, and he fires off a dozen pigeon spells, laughing to himself the whole time. He thinks this is fun, and he's going to keep doing this for the next few days. The next morning he goes out and does it again.

Two hours later he gets his head blown off by a Coalition sniper.

How, you ask? Because he ignored the clearly-defined advantages the CS has. Not plot armor, but stuff that has been on paper for years and years. Sadly, the mage suffers from a big limitation -- he isn't allowed to read the GM section of the game books. He doesn't know what the Coalition can do, because he's operating from rumors and half-truths. The mage has never read the books at all.

This is basically the inverse of the old "hey guard, he's sick" trick. One guy pretends to be sick, so the guard comes in and the other guy whacks him on the back of the head. The ploy works, so presumably the guard doesn't survive (or has a concussion and doesn't remember what happened), so he can't tell the other guards, so the ploy keeps working. This is the same thing in reverse. The mage tries the attack, gets killed, and so never tells anybody else about his great idea. The next guy who thinks of it therefore has no warning, and he tries it too, with the same result.

So how does the CS know? What is their defense against endless magic pigeon spam? Psi-Stalkers, spies, and psychics with Clairvoyance and Object Read.

So somebody detects a source of magic coming from inside a random guy's apartment. The poor sap left his window open and a magic pigeon flew in. A CS kill team busts in the door, ready to blast anybody they see. The only thing there is this little bird. The Psi-Stalker points at it and goes "magic!" Thinking it's a shape-changed wizard or something, everybody opens fire full-auto. The poor apartment is blown to smithereens, but the bird is just fine. Eventually they stop shooting, and stand around wondering what to do. All across Chi Town, this happens a dozen times or so within like a 10 minute span. Then somebody realizes "hey this is just a magic spell, it's not a creature."

At that point, you bring in your psionic investigations team. We'll say that Chi Town has at least a dozen 4th or 5th level psy sensitives that they can bring in to investigate crap like this. They all come in, see the bird, and use Clairvoyance. "I'm thinking of the person who cast this spell..." They'll have about a 2/3 chance of getting some info. If you have a dozen people doing it, about 8 of them should get some information regarding the person who cast it. One guy sees an image of a man around 20 years old, he's scruffy and unshaven, and wearing the gear of a ley line walker. He's sitting in a chair in a darkened room, drinking a beer. Another psychic sees the same man walking down a cobblestone street, having had too much to drink. There is a blonde woman with him. Another psychic sees the man on a hoverbike, zipping past an area thick with trees, etc, etc. After their visions, they share their information and begin to get a picture of who they're after. And so begins another episode of the long-running television series, CSI: Chi Town.

They're going to piece together who he is and where he is (generally) over the course of a few hours to a few days. They're going to put together a profile on him like the FBI tracking down Buffalo Bill. They'll look at photos of towns that are known to have cobblestone streets, looking for any identifying marks or buildings that look familiar. They'll look at towns near forests. Once they've got a pretty good idea of his location, they'll contact their spies in the area to see if there are any young line walkers who ride a hoverbike and have a taste for trashy blondes. "Oh yeah, there's a guy like that here." Twenty minutes later and you've got 5 Coalition kill teams moving in. Psi-Stalkers who have seen the birds will know this guy's "scent". When they pick him up, everybody moves in for the kill. They'll just blow him away when he steps outside his front door.

This isn't plot armor. It's just the fact that it's a major city that has a lot of resources. And for a cheesy distraction like this to have any effect, you have to do it A LOT. One magic pigeon isn't going to do anything. You have to hit them with hundreds for it really become more than a minor annoyance. At that point, the odds swing against the mage. They're going to find a clue as to where you are, and they will send someone to kill you. This dramatically reduces the life expectancy of the guys who are inclined to pull this sort of thing. The mages who end up surviving are the ones who don't throw rocks at the hornet's nest.

And that's why the plan wouldn't work.

Meanwhile the CS kill teams are entering into hostile territory. They are spied by FoM mages who want to know why the CS is looking for someone outside their territory. The CS kills the Mage but the FoM investigates.

They learn about the mage and find out he never did anything in CS territory and wasn't an accomplished battle mage. There was no reason for the CS to react as they did.

After digging they find out he was bragging about his "pigeon trick" to his buddies in the bar. They put two and two together and come up with four. The FoM puts together a team. 200 mages and teaches them the spell

Each mage, when the operation is green lit, casts 40 magic pigeons from a ley line. 8000 magic pigeons descend on Chi-Town causing panic.

-----

Two can play the what if game.

[Eagle]

Meanwhile the CS kill teams are entering into hostile territory. They are spied by FoM mages who want to know why the CS is looking for someone outside their territory. The CS kills the Mage but the FoM investigates.

They learn about the mage and find out he never did anything in CS territory and wasn't an accomplished battle mage. There was no reason for the CS to react as they did.

After digging they find out he was bragging about his "pigeon trick" to his buddies in the bar. They put two and two together and come up with four. The FoM puts together a team. 200 mages and teaches them the spell

Each mage, when the operation is green lit, casts 40 magic pigeons from a ley line. 8000 magic pigeons descend on Chi-Town causing panic.

-----

Two can play the what if game.

Sorry, I don't buy it at all. And you've quickly gone from "this is something I can do that the Coalition can't stop" to "let's start a war with the Coalition". Because that's exactly what you're talking about.

The magic pigeon plot (and the related sanctum plot, and presumably other similar "I cast this a bunch" plots) involves a mage or group of mages who are able to operate for a long period of time, spamming the Coalition with long-lasting utility spells. But there are a lot of problems with that. I've already pointed out that you are poking the hornet's nest. That's the first problem. You can't do that and not expect the CS to respond.

The second problem is that I don't think the pigeons are really going to do anything. Most of the "detect magic" type abilities that the CS has are actually PPE detectors. The bird doesn't have any PPE in it. Yes, there is a psychic power that detects magic, but the range is fairly limited and there's no indication that the the Coalition relies on it to any real degree. They may have a few psychics scanning people who walk into Chi-Town, looking for magic weapons, and they probably have some security checkpoints within the city as well doing the same thing. But it appears to be a secondary or tertiary method of detection at best. Most of the time they rely upon Dog Boys sniffing out high concentrations of PPE. It's the use of magic that Dog Boys detect, not the presence of it. A regular old +1 sword just looks like a sword to them. The magic pigeon will probably just look like a normal pigeon. I don't think they're even going to know that it's there.

I played in a superhero game once where the PCs were the first superpowered beings to appear on the planet. I had a flying superstrong guy. An evil scientist (having recently gained superhuman intelligence) decided to challenge me to stop him, and he borrowed the idea that Gene Hackman used in the first Superman movie. A super high-pitched message telling me where to meet him was broadcast throughout the city, causing dogs to howl in pain. It was intended to lure me back to his underground base. Unfortunately for his plan, my character didn't have any sort of super-hearing. I went around blissfully unaware that anything was happening, except those damn dogs kept barking for no reason. I'm afraid that the "pigeon plan" is going to do the same thing. All these magic pigeons are going to be wandering around and no one is going to know it.

The third problem is that most of the inhabitants of Chi-Town (or other CS cities) don't have any of those abilities at all. To them, the pigeon is just a pigeon. 8000 pigeons fly in and they're worried about the birds crapping all over the place. They will not jump to the conclusion that these birds are somehow magical. The CS is notoriously tight-lipped about that sort of thing anyway. Even if the CS government knows about it, they sure aren't going to tell any of the people who live there. It would be a state secret.

The fourth problem is that I don't think mages react as you are describing them. I don't recall any sort of "all for one and one for all" mentality among line walkers or other practitioners of magic. In fact, they all seem to be incredibly independent. The CS has the advantage that they follow a very rigid command structure. They're going to have a psionic investigations team. But we've never seen any indication that the Federation of Magic gives a crap about some random mage who gets killed while poking the hornet's nest. Your description of them is completely out of character based on everything we know about them. The FOM book describes people within the Federation laughing about the Tolkeen war with the CS, saying it serves them right (page 14). This doesn't sound like a group of friends who stick together through thick and thin. It sounds like a bunch of self-righteous jerks who turn on each other at the drop of a hat.

[flatline]

There have been lots of arguments over how detailed the results of Clairvoyance can be.

I happen to be of the opinion that that no amount of using Clairvoyance will give you the location of a mage 300 miles away.

I'd have to think about object read a bit. It doesn't work on living things. The pigeon is a magical construct rather than a living thing, but I'm still not comfortable calling it an object either. I think that I'd rule against it since the intention of Object Read is that you're reading the psychic impressions left on the object by the owner over time and the magic pigeon was only in the presence of the mage for a short time. Might be an interesting topic for a new thread, though.

--flatline

[HWalsh]

Meanwhile the CS kill teams are entering into hostile territory. They are spied by FoM mages who want to know why the CS is looking for someone outside their territory. The CS kills the Mage but the FoM investigates.

They learn about the mage and find out he never did anything in CS territory and wasn't an accomplished battle mage. There was no reason for the CS to react as they did.

After digging they find out he was bragging about his "pigeon trick" to his buddies in the bar. They put two and two together and come up with four. The FoM puts together a team. 200 mages and teaches them the spell

Each mage, when the operation is green lit, casts 40 magic pigeons from a ley line. 8000 magic pigeons descend on Chi-Town causing panic.

-----

Two can play the what if game.

Sorry, I don't buy it at all. And you've quickly gone from "this is something I can do that the Coalition can't stop" to "let's start a war with the Coalition". Because that's exactly what you're talking about.

The magic pigeon plot (and the related sanctum plot, and presumably other similar "I cast this a bunch" plots) involves a mage or group of mages who are able to operate for a long period of time, spamming the Coalition with long-lasting utility spells. But there are a lot of problems with that. I've already pointed out that you are poking the hornet's nest. That's the first problem. You can't do that and not expect the CS to respond.

The second problem is that I don't think the pigeons are really going to do anything. Most of the "detect magic" type abilities that the CS has are actually PPE detectors. The bird doesn't have any PPE in it. Yes, there is a psychic power that detects magic, but the range is fairly limited and there's no indication that the the Coalition relies on it to any real degree. They may have a few psychics scanning people who walk into Chi-Town, looking for magic weapons, and they probably have some security checkpoints within the city as well doing the same thing. But it appears to be a secondary or tertiary method of detection at best. Most of the time they rely upon Dog Boys sniffing out high concentrations of PPE. It's the use of magic that Dog Boys detect, not the presence of it. A regular old +1 sword just looks like a sword to them. The magic pigeon will probably just look like a normal pigeon. I don't think they're even going to know that it's there.

I played in a superhero game once where the PCs were the first superpowered beings to appear on the planet. I had a flying superstrong guy. An evil scientist (having recently gained superhuman intelligence) decided to challenge me to stop him, and he borrowed the idea that Gene Hackman used in the first Superman movie. A super high-pitched message telling me where to meet him was broadcast throughout the city, causing dogs to howl in pain. It was intended to lure me back to his underground base. Unfortunately for his plan, my character didn't have any sort of super-hearing. I went around blissfully unaware that anything was happening, except those damn dogs kept barking for no reason. I'm afraid that the "pigeon plan" is going to do the same thing. All these magic pigeons are going to be wandering around and no one is going to know it.

The third problem is that most of the inhabitants of Chi-Town (or other CS cities) don't have any of those abilities at all. To them, the pigeon is just a pigeon. 8000 pigeons fly in and they're worried about the birds crapping all over the place. They will not jump to the conclusion that these birds are somehow magical. The CS is notoriously tight-lipped about that sort of thing anyway. Even if the CS government knows about it, they sure aren't going to tell any of the people who live there. It would be a state secret.

The fourth problem is that I don't think mages react as you are describing them. I don't recall any sort of "all for one and one for all" mentality among line walkers or other practitioners of magic. In fact, they all seem to be incredibly independent. The CS has the advantage that they follow a very rigid command structure. They're going to have a psionic investigations team. But we've never seen any indication that the Federation of Magic gives a crap about some random mage who gets killed while poking the hornet's nest. Your description of them is completely out of character based on everything we know about them. The FOM book describes people within the Federation laughing about the Tolkeen war with the CS, saying it serves them right (page 14). This doesn't sound like a group of friends who stick together through thick and thin. It sounds like a bunch of self-righteous jerks who turn on each other at the drop of a hat.

Its not about a bunch of friends who stick together through thick and thin.

This is about gauging the reaction of an enemy. You're talking about the CS instigating a full on CSI investigation of something "not causing much of a problem" to the point of hiring spies and agents that are operating outside of the CS. Then putting together a full on assassination hit.

That is going to get the attention of groups like the FoM because if the CS is going through that much effort then there has to be a reason. The FoM hates the CS, this is pretty well established, and if the CS is going to react that heavily then there has to be a reason for it. The FoM is going to assume that this attack had some kind of effect and are going to assume that it was successful enough to warrant the kind of resources, as was listed, that they don't even use when tracking enemies of the state.

I'm not kidding. The CSI CS react more efficiently than they do against some of the NPCs in the Mercenary Adventures book. I'm talking that they were depicted in the post I responded to putting more effort into the manhunt of a mage who cast magic pigeons than they did against a CS Soldier that they operated on, implanted psionic powers into, that they drove insane, and now is attempting to actively destroy the CS and has sensitive operational knowledge with how to do so. If they are going to do that, then, in universe, the other groups are going to sit back and want to know why they are putting forth that much effort.

So, yeah, they will assume that the guy was onto something big. Which is going to make the CS's problem worse.

[Killer Cyborg]

There have been lots of arguments over how detailed the results of Clairvoyance can be.

I happen to be of the opinion that that no amount of using Clairvoyance will give you the location of a mage 300 miles away.

I think it depends a lot on all the other factors.
I mean, if you're 300 miles away in the Dinosaur Swamp, that a pretty recognizable region. It'd be pretty easy for somebody to collect a large number of visions involving dinosaurs and swamps, and to say, "Hey, I know the general area this guy is in!"
If the person goes outside, that is.
If they're in an underground cave somewhere deep beneath the swamps, and there aren't any distinguishing characteristics, that's a different matter. In that case, tracking the person would have to involve something other than a million visions of this guy in his nondescript cave.
In that kind of case, it would depend on when the visions start kicking in.
(And don't get me wrong--I don't think that a plan consisting solely of spamming pigeons would be likely to set off Clairvoyance automatically. If it got to be a big problem, CS psychics could actively seek out the perp, but that's generally not the kind of scenario that I envisioned when I originally came up with the point about the implications of Clairvoyance.)

This is an area that's entirely up to the GM, as far as I can tell. The description of the power mentions that the psychic in the example doesn't know if his glimpse of Janet is 20 minutes, 8 hours, a day, or a week away, but that doesn't exclude the possibility that some psychics might get glimpses months or years into the future.
Likewise, the GM decides how useful the vision is, what the content is and how clear it is.
If somebody has a Really Devastating Evil Plan against the CS, something that will kill millions of people, and the GM in question decides that absolutely nobody has any visions about the Really Devastating Evil Plan until a week before it culminates, then that would mean that the CS would only have a week to try to track the planner and/or stop the plan.
But if the GM decides that psychics can potentially pick up on the plan as soon as it starts getting put into motion--or any time along the way--then with a long term plan, the CS might be aware of the devastating potential results of the plan for roughly as long as the planners, and might have roughly as much time to thwart the plan as the planners have to put it into action.

In that case, the possibility of finding somebody 300 miles away--even in a nondescript location--would depend on what they were doing, what the plan was and how it was being implemented.

I'd have to think about object read a bit. It doesn't work on living things. The pigeon is a magical construct rather than a living thing, but I'm still not comfortable calling it an object either. I think that I'd rule against it since the intention of Object Read is that you're reading the psychic impressions left on the object by the owner over time and the magic pigeon was only in the presence of the mage for a short time. Might be an interesting topic for a new thread, though.

--flatline

I'd say that because the mage created the pigeon by manifesting his/her own Potential Psychic Energy, that reading psychic impressions of the mage using Object Read would work.

Unless I ruled that Magic Pigeons counted as creatures, in which case a whole big can of worms would be opened.

[flatline]

Having re-read the description for Object Read, I don't think I'd allow it to work on a Magic Pigeon. The magic pigeon isn't technically a living thing, but as an animated construct made up of PPE, I think it's closer to a living thing than an inanimate object.

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

Having re-read the description for Object Read, I don't think I'd allow it to work on a Magic Pigeon. The magic pigeon isn't technically a living thing, but as an animated construct made up of PPE, I think it's closer to a living thing than an inanimate object.

--flatline

[Shark_Force]

i dunno. reading clairvoyance, i realize it doesn't explicitly state that only major events can be seen, but it doesn't ever seem to imply that, for example, you would expect it to reveal "the next time mrs forrest goes on a shopping trip" or "which of this basket full of muffins will be the tastiest".

for something as comparatively unremarkable as a magic pigeon... i'm not particularly convinced clairvoyance, even a deliberately triggered one, is going to get you much information, if indeed it gets you anything at all. you aren't even guaranteed to get an image at all, really... for something as comparatively minor as this, i'd expect at most a feeling that the next pigeon will be arriving soon, and that it will be headed for the east tower or something like that.

i mean, if we're talking about a planned raid to use magic pigeons generated by a TW device that turns the pigeons into homing missiles, then yeah... clairvoyance will give you some information about that. maybe. but it will probably tell you where the attack is going to happen, not so much about where the attack is coming from.

(on the other hand, if you at least get to see the pigeon arrive, you can probably get a general direction that the pigeon is coming from. i don't see why you'd need clairvoyance to track this back to an individual who is spamming magic pigeon all by themselves... just keep going in the direction you see the pigeons coming from. i mean, it isn't like they arrive by teleportation. now, that isn't necessarily going to help, of course. if this is an organized effort, it isn't too hard to spot a SAMAS patrol coming, use superior invisibilty enhanced TW vehicles, and get out of there, possibly leaving behind any number of traps, and the location the pigeons are coming from could easily be some random spot 50 miles into the magic zone where there isn't even a notable landmark, but again, if there's a steady stream of pigeons flying in, clairvoyance is pretty irrelevant. just backtrack the line of pigeons).

[Killer Cyborg]

for something as comparatively unremarkable as a magic pigeon... i'm not particularly convinced clairvoyance, even a deliberately triggered one, is going to get you much information, if indeed it gets you anything at all. you aren't even guaranteed to get an image at all, really... for something as comparatively minor as this, i'd expect at most a feeling that the next pigeon will be arriving soon, and that it will be headed for the east tower or something like that.

Clairvoyance provides a glimpse of the possible future, by thinking about a particular person, event, or place.
So they could think about "who is making these pigeons," or "When does the next pigeon arrive," or even possibly "Where are these pigeons being sent from?"

Whether or not it netted anything useful or interesting would be up to the GM and the dice.

(on the other hand, if you at least get to see the pigeon arrive, you can probably get a general direction that the pigeon is coming from. i don't see why you'd need clairvoyance to track this back to an individual who is spamming magic pigeon all by themselves... just keep going in the direction you see the pigeons coming from. i mean, it isn't like they arrive by teleportation. now, that isn't necessarily going to help, of course. if this is an organized effort, it isn't too hard to spot a SAMAS patrol coming, use superior invisibilty enhanced TW vehicles, and get out of there, possibly leaving behind any number of traps, and the location the pigeons are coming from could easily be some random spot 50 miles into the magic zone where there isn't even a notable landmark, but again, if there's a steady stream of pigeons flying in, clairvoyance is pretty irrelevant. just backtrack the line of pigeons).

I think the easiest way, depending as always on the GM, would be to have psi-stalkers & dog boys trail the pigeon's back to the source.
Clairvoyance would not be my go-to for dealing with pigeons.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Hi guys, I'm new here.

I'd suggest one reason why the Coalition isn't completely destroyed is because most of the people with the mentality and desire to attack them, start off with dumb moves like the pigeon attack. You've got some know-it-all mage who thinks he's come up with an absolutely brilliant idea, and he fires off a dozen pigeon spells, laughing to himself the whole time. He thinks this is fun, and he's going to keep doing this for the next few days. The next morning he goes out and does it again.

Two hours later he gets his head blown off by a Coalition sniper.

How, you ask? Because he ignored the clearly-defined advantages the CS has. Not plot armor, but stuff that has been on paper for years and years. Sadly, the mage suffers from a big limitation -- he isn't allowed to read the GM section of the game books. He doesn't know what the Coalition can do, because he's operating from rumors and half-truths. The mage has never read the books at all.

This is basically the inverse of the old "hey guard, he's sick" trick. One guy pretends to be sick, so the guard comes in and the other guy whacks him on the back of the head. The ploy works, so presumably the guard doesn't survive (or has a concussion and doesn't remember what happened), so he can't tell the other guards, so the ploy keeps working. This is the same thing in reverse. The mage tries the attack, gets killed, and so never tells anybody else about his great idea. The next guy who thinks of it therefore has no warning, and he tries it too, with the same result.

So how does the CS know? What is their defense against endless magic pigeon spam? Psi-Stalkers, spies, and psychics with Clairvoyance and Object Read.

So somebody detects a source of magic coming from inside a random guy's apartment. The poor sap left his window open and a magic pigeon flew in. A CS kill team busts in the door, ready to blast anybody they see. The only thing there is this little bird. The Psi-Stalker points at it and goes "magic!" Thinking it's a shape-changed wizard or something, everybody opens fire full-auto. The poor apartment is blown to smithereens, but the bird is just fine. Eventually they stop shooting, and stand around wondering what to do. All across Chi Town, this happens a dozen times or so within like a 10 minute span. Then somebody realizes "hey this is just a magic spell, it's not a creature."

At that point, you bring in your psionic investigations team. We'll say that Chi Town has at least a dozen 4th or 5th level psy sensitives that they can bring in to investigate crap like this. They all come in, see the bird, and use Clairvoyance. "I'm thinking of the person who cast this spell..." They'll have about a 2/3 chance of getting some info. If you have a dozen people doing it, about 8 of them should get some information regarding the person who cast it. One guy sees an image of a man around 20 years old, he's scruffy and unshaven, and wearing the gear of a ley line walker. He's sitting in a chair in a darkened room, drinking a beer. Another psychic sees the same man walking down a cobblestone street, having had too much to drink. There is a blonde woman with him. Another psychic sees the man on a hoverbike, zipping past an area thick with trees, etc, etc. After their visions, they share their information and begin to get a picture of who they're after. And so begins another episode of the long-running television series, CSI: Chi Town.

They're going to piece together who he is and where he is (generally) over the course of a few hours to a few days. They're going to put together a profile on him like the FBI tracking down Buffalo Bill. They'll look at photos of towns that are known to have cobblestone streets, looking for any identifying marks or buildings that look familiar. They'll look at towns near forests. Once they've got a pretty good idea of his location, they'll contact their spies in the area to see if there are any young line walkers who ride a hoverbike and have a taste for trashy blondes. "Oh yeah, there's a guy like that here." Twenty minutes later and you've got 5 Coalition kill teams moving in. Psi-Stalkers who have seen the birds will know this guy's "scent". When they pick him up, everybody moves in for the kill. They'll just blow him away when he steps outside his front door.

This isn't plot armor. It's just the fact that it's a major city that has a lot of resources. And for a cheesy distraction like this to have any effect, you have to do it A LOT. One magic pigeon isn't going to do anything. You have to hit them with hundreds for it really become more than a minor annoyance. At that point, the odds swing against the mage. They're going to find a clue as to where you are, and they will send someone to kill you. This dramatically reduces the life expectancy of the guys who are inclined to pull this sort of thing. The mages who end up surviving are the ones who don't throw rocks at the hornet's nest.

And that's why the plan wouldn't work.

I like this guy.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Hi guys, I'm new here.

I'd suggest one reason why the Coalition isn't completely destroyed is because most of the people with the mentality and desire to attack them, start off with dumb moves like the pigeon attack. You've got some know-it-all mage who thinks he's come up with an absolutely brilliant idea, and he fires off a dozen pigeon spells, laughing to himself the whole time. He thinks this is fun, and he's going to keep doing this for the next few days. The next morning he goes out and does it again.

Two hours later he gets his head blown off by a Coalition sniper.

How, you ask? Because he ignored the clearly-defined advantages the CS has. Not plot armor, but stuff that has been on paper for years and years. Sadly, the mage suffers from a big limitation -- he isn't allowed to read the GM section of the game books. He doesn't know what the Coalition can do, because he's operating from rumors and half-truths. The mage has never read the books at all.

This is basically the inverse of the old "hey guard, he's sick" trick. One guy pretends to be sick, so the guard comes in and the other guy whacks him on the back of the head. The ploy works, so presumably the guard doesn't survive (or has a concussion and doesn't remember what happened), so he can't tell the other guards, so the ploy keeps working. This is the same thing in reverse. The mage tries the attack, gets killed, and so never tells anybody else about his great idea. The next guy who thinks of it therefore has no warning, and he tries it too, with the same result.

So how does the CS know? What is their defense against endless magic pigeon spam? Psi-Stalkers, spies, and psychics with Clairvoyance and Object Read.

So somebody detects a source of magic coming from inside a random guy's apartment. The poor sap left his window open and a magic pigeon flew in. A CS kill team busts in the door, ready to blast anybody they see. The only thing there is this little bird. The Psi-Stalker points at it and goes "magic!" Thinking it's a shape-changed wizard or something, everybody opens fire full-auto. The poor apartment is blown to smithereens, but the bird is just fine. Eventually they stop shooting, and stand around wondering what to do. All across Chi Town, this happens a dozen times or so within like a 10 minute span. Then somebody realizes "hey this is just a magic spell, it's not a creature."

At that point, you bring in your psionic investigations team. We'll say that Chi Town has at least a dozen 4th or 5th level psy sensitives that they can bring in to investigate crap like this. They all come in, see the bird, and use Clairvoyance. "I'm thinking of the person who cast this spell..." They'll have about a 2/3 chance of getting some info. If you have a dozen people doing it, about 8 of them should get some information regarding the person who cast it. One guy sees an image of a man around 20 years old, he's scruffy and unshaven, and wearing the gear of a ley line walker. He's sitting in a chair in a darkened room, drinking a beer. Another psychic sees the same man walking down a cobblestone street, having had too much to drink. There is a blonde woman with him. Another psychic sees the man on a hoverbike, zipping past an area thick with trees, etc, etc. After their visions, they share their information and begin to get a picture of who they're after. And so begins another episode of the long-running television series, CSI: Chi Town.

They're going to piece together who he is and where he is (generally) over the course of a few hours to a few days. They're going to put together a profile on him like the FBI tracking down Buffalo Bill. They'll look at photos of towns that are known to have cobblestone streets, looking for any identifying marks or buildings that look familiar. They'll look at towns near forests. Once they've got a pretty good idea of his location, they'll contact their spies in the area to see if there are any young line walkers who ride a hoverbike and have a taste for trashy blondes. "Oh yeah, there's a guy like that here." Twenty minutes later and you've got 5 Coalition kill teams moving in. Psi-Stalkers who have seen the birds will know this guy's "scent". When they pick him up, everybody moves in for the kill. They'll just blow him away when he steps outside his front door.

This isn't plot armor. It's just the fact that it's a major city that has a lot of resources. And for a cheesy distraction like this to have any effect, you have to do it A LOT. One magic pigeon isn't going to do anything. You have to hit them with hundreds for it really become more than a minor annoyance. At that point, the odds swing against the mage. They're going to find a clue as to where you are, and they will send someone to kill you. This dramatically reduces the life expectancy of the guys who are inclined to pull this sort of thing. The mages who end up surviving are the ones who don't throw rocks at the hornet's nest.

And that's why the plan wouldn't work.

Meanwhile the CS kill teams are entering into hostile territory. They are spied by FoM mages who want to know why the CS is looking for someone outside their territory. The CS kills the Mage but the FoM investigates.

They learn about the mage and find out he never did anything in CS territory and wasn't an accomplished battle mage. There was no reason for the CS to react as they did.

After digging they find out he was bragging about his "pigeon trick" to his buddies in the bar. They put two and two together and come up with four. The FoM puts together a team. 200 mages and teaches them the spell

Each mage, when the operation is green lit, casts 40 magic pigeons from a ley line. 8000 magic pigeons descend on Chi-Town causing panic.

-----

Two can play the what if game.

You're forgetting a huge huge limitation the mages have and a benifit that the CS Has.

You have to be a special person, born to it, to have the CHANCE to become a mage. You can't just teach anyone walking own the street. You need the PPE. Then learning to be a mage takes years and years. Some of the mage classes require appritenceships that go into decades. There's few formal training centers, and those that 'are' tend to stay hidden for their own self preservation. Out side those few centers, mages are few and far between on the ground and you have to prove to your mentor over years of work, that he can trust you not to use the spells you want to learn, against HIM, or he won't teach you the spells.

So all in all you're looking at years minimum to make one lone mage.

The CS can (and has) Literally recruited MILLIONS of troops in a couple of months. But even with out that dramatic upswing they can take average farm boys and girls off the farm. Put them through a few weeks of basic and have deployable troops with mega damage capacity. More over their armies are so large (As they've DONE this) You're looking at -literal- 1000s to 10,000s to one odds in the CS's favor.

on top of all that, the Magic Kingdoms might not like the CS (For good reason) But they know better than to .... throw rocks at that hornets nest. The learned leaders of Lazlo said it straight out in the SoT books. ___EVEN IF ALL THE MAGIC KINGDOMS TEAMED UP, THE CS WOULD STILL WIN____. So they don't kick the tiger's tail. They don't waste people to go and frankly "Play practical jokes on the CS" when the result would be mega damage retaliation on a scale that could and likely would crush dozens of towns when the CS tracks down those mages, if not draw attention to the Magic Kingdoms themselves.

It's a thought process "The pigeon tactic" but in reality it boils down to "Dur her, magic joke" that would get tanks and aircraft called out after you. That's just stupid.

[Eagle]

There have been lots of arguments over how detailed the results of Clairvoyance can be.

I happen to be of the opinion that that no amount of using Clairvoyance will give you the location of a mage 300 miles away.

I'd have to think about object read a bit. It doesn't work on living things. The pigeon is a magical construct rather than a living thing, but I'm still not comfortable calling it an object either. I think that I'd rule against it since the intention of Object Read is that you're reading the psychic impressions left on the object by the owner over time and the magic pigeon was only in the presence of the mage for a short time. Might be an interesting topic for a new thread, though.

--flatline

Well, I think you're reading Clairvoyance in a way that is more limited than the book describes. While the book uses an example of a psychic detecting danger, the power isn't actually limited to that. By ruling that Clairvoyance will never allow you to track down a mage far away (despite the fact that the range of the power indicates it can show you images of people thousands of miles away), you're basically giving the line walker the same sort of plot armor that you say the Coalition has.

Its not about a bunch of friends who stick together through thick and thin.

This is about gauging the reaction of an enemy. You're talking about the CS instigating a full on CSI investigation of something "not causing much of a problem" to the point of hiring spies and agents that are operating outside of the CS. Then putting together a full on assassination hit.

That is going to get the attention of groups like the FoM because if the CS is going through that much effort then there has to be a reason. The FoM hates the CS, this is pretty well established, and if the CS is going to react that heavily then there has to be a reason for it. The FoM is going to assume that this attack had some kind of effect and are going to assume that it was successful enough to warrant the kind of resources, as was listed, that they don't even use when tracking enemies of the state.

I'm not kidding. The CSI CS react more efficiently than they do against some of the NPCs in the Mercenary Adventures book. I'm talking that they were depicted in the post I responded to putting more effort into the manhunt of a mage who cast magic pigeons than they did against a CS Soldier that they operated on, implanted psionic powers into, that they drove insane, and now is attempting to actively destroy the CS and has sensitive operational knowledge with how to do so. If they are going to do that, then, in universe, the other groups are going to sit back and want to know why they are putting forth that much effort.

So, yeah, they will assume that the guy was onto something big. Which is going to make the CS's problem worse.

Well, I think you're playing both sides of the argument here a little bit, and that's unfair.

The thread takes the position that the "pigeon plan" will be a debilitating attack on the Coalition. It sounds ridiculous, but we've got 3 pages of discussion about how a handful of mages can use this spell over and over again to cause serious harm to Chi-Town and other fortress cities and how they have no way to respond. Now while I disagree, and as a GM I would rule that the pigeons simply caused no effect at all (the CS's magic detection won't really pick it up, so it's not a problem), my initial post was responding to the "they don't have a way to deal with it" portion of the argument. Clearly they do.

Now obviously the CS isn't going to send out multiple hit squads to find some Lloyd Christmas-looking Ley Line Walker who is spending his days pointlessly casting spells that don't do anything at Chi-Town. The only reason they're going to respond like that is if it's actually screwing with their magic detection in some way. Or unless he was just really that irritating.

No one would be surprised if the CS sent out fifty SAMAS to drop some guy who summoned a big demon every day and sent it tearing at the gates of Chi-Town. Even the craziest people in the Federation of Magic would be like "okay that moron was asking for it, what did he think was going to happen". If the pigeon plan causes the level of harm that its proponents say it will cause, then of course the CS will act that way. And every mage out there will understand exactly why the CS acted the way it did. If it causes no harm at all, then obviously the CS doesn't do anything. It's a failed plan either way.

The plan relies on the idea that you can cast this one spell endlessly, and over time it will have a harmful effect on the CS that they can't stop. But that presumes the existence of a CS that won't react to an attack on its capital city. I think it's relatively easy to stop the attack. The only real question then is what level of response is warranted?

[Axelmania]

I'd find it really convenient that the CS can tell the difference between Rifts Earth humans and Heroes Unlimited humans (with no powers) but can't figure out BTS Psychics from Rifts Earth Psychics.

Alternatively it would seem convenient that they never found out that it's an alien discipline when they're anti-anything not of Rifts Earth.

Seems like a series of very lucky coincidences that culminate to giving the CS an extra layer of defense.

Where do you get the idea the CS can do this regarding normal HU chars? CB 36 identifies the two threats as literacy+freedoms. This is also a more general statement also talking about "Earth-like dimensions".

The "alien invaders" bit at the end would only seem like something that would come up if you had a reason to think it.

If you knew it was another dimension then CS psychics might sniff it out. If you didn't... well the best example is Victor Lazlo. He just thinks he time traveled.

BS style nega psychics called an "alien discipline" sounds off. It would be viewed as a variation among Negas.

Presumably the guy from the parallel Earth shows up and says something about it without knowing any better. "Hey I'm from an Earth, but not this one." "Oh really? Come with me..."

He wouldn't day that unless he knew. A lot of people would just assume they got sent to a dystopian future than being in an alternate earth.

For any watchers of Sleepy Hollow on TV, Ichabod didn't assume he was in an alien dimension when he awoke in the future, for example. Nor did Rita Rapunzel or Night Mare Moon when freed from their prisons.

[Eagle]

I'd find it really convenient that the CS can tell the difference between Rifts Earth humans and Heroes Unlimited humans (with no powers) but can't figure out BTS Psychics from Rifts Earth Psychics.

Alternatively it would seem convenient that they never found out that it's an alien discipline when they're anti-anything not of Rifts Earth.

Seems like a series of very lucky coincidences that culminate to giving the CS an extra layer of defense.

Where do you get the idea the CS can do this regarding normal HU chars? CB 36 identifies the two threats as literacy+freedoms. This is also a more general statement also talking about "Earth-like dimensions".

The "alien invaders" bit at the end would only seem like something that would come up if you had a reason to think it.

If you knew it was another dimension then CS psychics might sniff it out. If you didn't... well the best example is Victor Lazlo. He just thinks he time traveled.

BS style nega psychics called an "alien discipline" sounds off. It would be viewed as a variation among Negas.

Presumably the guy from the parallel Earth shows up and says something about it without knowing any better. "Hey I'm from an Earth, but not this one." "Oh really? Come with me..."

He wouldn't day that unless he knew. A lot of people would just assume they got sent to a dystopian future than being in an alternate earth.

For any watchers of Sleepy Hollow on TV, Ichabod didn't assume he was in an alien dimension when he awoke in the future, for example. Nor did Rita Rapunzel or Night Mare Moon when freed from their prisons.

I don't think they have anything that can detect which parallel Earth you came from. As far as I know it's just a "what if" that was included in one of the books somewhere. I don't even remember exactly where I read it. Conversion Book maybe? However it's quite possible that somebody who traveled from another Earth could reach the correct conclusion that they weren't in their own future.

Someone from HU Earth might be the most likely to give it away. Let's say he's in a bar telling people about his home, and he goes into that story about how Dr. Deathbeam and Captain Freedom trashed three city blocks in their big showdown last week. While your average Joe on Rifts Earth doesn't know pre-Rifts history well at all, he probably knows that there weren't superheroes flying around in real life back then. And CS higher-ups certainly know that. At that point, it's just a matter of whether the CS thinks this guy is really from where he says he's from, or is he just telling stories in a bar trying to impress people?

[Axelmania]

I don't think CS higher ups know the specifics of what superheroes existed during the golden age. Looking at the published NPCs, none necessarily seem like they would dominate history books.

The Centurions of Century Station for example, could have existed during the Golden Age.

[Killer Cyborg]

I think that the main issue with old-style BtS Nega-Psychics is that the CS might consider the to be mages.

[Shark_Force]

The thread takes the position that the "pigeon plan" will be a debilitating attack on the Coalition. It sounds ridiculous, but we've got 3 pages of discussion about how a handful of mages can use this spell over and over again to cause serious harm to Chi-Town and other fortress cities and how they have no way to respond. Now while I disagree, and as a GM I would rule that the pigeons simply caused no effect at all (the CS's magic detection won't really pick it up, so it's not a problem), my initial post was responding to the "they don't have a way to deal with it" portion of the argument. Clearly they do.

Now obviously the CS isn't going to send out multiple hit squads to find some Lloyd Christmas-looking Ley Line Walker who is spending his days pointlessly casting spells that don't do anything at Chi-Town. The only reason they're going to respond like that is if it's actually screwing with their magic detection in some way. Or unless he was just really that irritating.

No one would be surprised if the CS sent out fifty SAMAS to drop some guy who summoned a big demon every day and sent it tearing at the gates of Chi-Town. Even the craziest people in the Federation of Magic would be like "okay that moron was asking for it, what did he think was going to happen". If the pigeon plan causes the level of harm that its proponents say it will cause, then of course the CS will act that way. And every mage out there will understand exactly why the CS acted the way it did. If it causes no harm at all, then obviously the CS doesn't do anything. It's a failed plan either way.

The plan relies on the idea that you can cast this one spell endlessly, and over time it will have a harmful effect on the CS that they can't stop. But that presumes the existence of a CS that won't react to an attack on its capital city. I think it's relatively easy to stop the attack. The only real question then is what level of response is warranted?

i don't know that the pigeons would be debilitating. they would make it harder to deal with other things that people might try later, because any ability to sense magic is going to run into a lot of false positives.

and honestly, i'm really not sure the CS does have the tools to do a lot about it. i mean, they can temporarily stop the numbers from increasing by sending out a SAMAS squad, which may or may not be able to accomplish anything (SAMAS can be detected a fairly long way out, and it shouldn't be too hard for a group of mages to evacuate an area before the CS can get there, particularly since there's basically no equipment required so something like a ley line walker can literally just teleport around a ley line network to escape with no chance of stopping them).

the simple fact is that it doesn't make much sense for the CS to not be controlling the magic zone if they think they can control the territory. any troops they send out that way, they are sending into hostile territory which, as far as they know, is under someone else's control, and that someone is probably already hostile to them and is unlikely to just allow random SAMAS patrols to pass through unmolested.

anything less than a full-scale invasion (which, as far as we can tell, the CS is not prepared for) is running the risk of getting ambushed and completely crushed by their enemies. one thing the CS learned from tolkeen is that magic can be used to set up rather devastating ambushes, and every time the CS sends someone into the magic zone they have to accept that there is a very real chance for those ambushes to happen, and it is entirely possible that they simply won't be able to detect them in time. if they send in 50 SAMAS, maybe there's nothing ready and waiting... and maybe the enemy have hidden a battery of TW anti-air guns along the way. or maybe they will just teleport them into place once they realize the SAMAS are coming. or maybe there are hundreds of air elementals waiting in ambush. or maybe there's an invisible force field in the air at the exact height that a SAMAS would typically fly at. maybe someone has hundreds of TW magic net guns and will simply disable the entire force, or maybe there are hundreds of mind melters waiting to take over those SAMAS suits, eject the pilots in the middle of hostile territory with no equipment, and sell the suits for a good profit (or even use them against the CS directly - you can bet there are non-magical d-bees that would be willing to fight against the CS, and 50 SAMAS could be quite a windfall in terms of arming them).

frankly, i don't think the CS is going to be terribly gung-ho about sending off random squads into the magic zone. or, alternately, they will... but they'll be skelebot squads that just kill everything they come across indiscriminately, and likely won't do much of anything in terms of stopping the magic pigeons.

in any event, i would expect the pigeons to prove to be quite annoying. they wouldn't be anything like a killing blow by themselves, but they certainly could interfere with the ability to deal with other plans, and as written, the CS doesn't have much ability to do anything about it (that doesn't mean they don't have anything that isn't written, as killer cyborg has pointed out, but if they do have some way of dealing with it then we don't know what it is).

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Re: telling what version of earth "humans" are from.

A simple blood and genetic screening will be enough. We can already tell what part of our current earth people come from simply from measuring levels of radiation and other exposure in their bodies. Its relatively trivial.

There is a lot more background radiation and other emanations that would affect anyone who actually was born on Rifts Earth and lived there their entire life. Someone from BTS or Heroes Earth will not have these markers.

[Killer Cyborg]

frankly, i don't think the CS is going to be terribly gung-ho about sending off random squads into the magic zone. or, alternately, they will... but they'll be skelebot squads that just kill everything they come across indiscriminately, and likely won't do much of anything in terms of stopping the magic pigeons.

IIRC, they already do send squads into the Magic Zone.
The FoM book I believe mentions them not being able to find Dweomer, and being vexed because Stormspire moves to evade their attacks.

[Axelmania]

I think that the main issue with old-style BtS Nega-Psychics is that the CS might consider the to be mages.

Doubtful. Their powers which have the same effects as the spell are done by concentrating.

Even with Underseas adding silent cast rules, they still involve mental chanting which CS telepaths could pick up on.

Nega Psychics wouldn't have that chanting if magic words so it would clearly be a different process.

I don't think they would register as magic either. Much like the healer OCC abilities in Palladium RPG (not Psi healer in 2nd ed) wouldn't register as psychic even though some copied the effects.

[Killer Cyborg]

I think that the main issue with old-style BtS Nega-Psychics is that the CS might consider the to be mages.

Doubtful. Their powers which have the same effects as the spell are done by concentrating.

IIRC, their powers are done subconsciously and automatically.

Even with Underseas adding silent cast rules, they still involve mental chanting which CS telepaths could pick up on.

Nega Psychics wouldn't have that chanting if magic words so it would clearly be a different process.

The question isn't how the spell is cast, but whether or not it's a spell.
I don't have my book handy, but it Nega-Psychics use magic, then the CS would see them as mages of some kind.
If they replicate spells using psychic abilities, then the CS would likely be cool with them.
It all comes down to if they'd pass the Dog Boy sniff test.

[eliakon]

frankly, i don't think the CS is going to be terribly gung-ho about sending off random squads into the magic zone. or, alternately, they will... but they'll be skelebot squads that just kill everything they come across indiscriminately, and likely won't do much of anything in terms of stopping the magic pigeons.

IIRC, they already do send squads into the Magic Zone.
The FoM book I believe mentions them not being able to find Dweomer, and being vexed because Stormspire moves to evade their attacks.

So they are unable to find the capitol cities of the Federation (as the City of Brass is also hidden)...
...but they will some how manage to unerringly find and kill any mage that even thinks of sending a pigeon at the Burbs before they can cast their spell.
Rrriiiiiiigggggghhhhht
I got a bridge I can sell ya too.

[Killer Cyborg]

frankly, i don't think the CS is going to be terribly gung-ho about sending off random squads into the magic zone. or, alternately, they will... but they'll be skelebot squads that just kill everything they come across indiscriminately, and likely won't do much of anything in terms of stopping the magic pigeons.

IIRC, they already do send squads into the Magic Zone.
The FoM book I believe mentions them not being able to find Dweomer, and being vexed because Stormspire moves to evade their attacks.

So they are unable to find the capitol cities of the Federation (as the City of Brass is also hidden)...
...but they will some how manage to unerringly find and kill any mage that even thinks of sending a pigeon at the Burbs before they can cast their spell.
Rrriiiiiiigggggghhhhht
I got a bridge I can sell ya too.

Apparently the bridge comes with a free strawman.
Neat!

[Axelmania]

I think that the main issue with old-style BtS Nega-Psychics is that the CS might consider the to be mages.

Doubtful. Their powers which have the same effects as the spell are done by concentrating.

IIRC, their powers are done subconsciously and automatically.

Even with Underseas adding silent cast rules, they still involve mental chanting which CS telepaths could pick up on.

Nega Psychics wouldn't have that chanting if magic words so it would clearly be a different process.

The question isn't how the spell is cast, but whether or not it's a spell.
I don't have my book handy, but it Nega-Psychics use magic, then the CS would see them as mages of some kind.
If they replicate spells using psychic abilities, then the CS would likely be cool with them.
It all comes down to if they'd pass the Dog Boy sniff test.

CB37 "the power to negate magic by concentrating (same as the negate magic spell)"

Subconscious is like they don't believe they are psychic but might think they are hallucinating a pigeon "this can't be real this can't be real" concentration to clear their thoughts (but actually clearing the air)

So it is not automatic. That was psi nullifiers in psyscape. 2nd edition nega psychics might've been changed to automatic though.

The "powers automatically manifest themselves when the time is right (and without the psychic realizing it)" part is probably referring to their new psionic powers.

"Same as" must be.taken in context. Their power of concentration negates magic like the spell but is a power, not a spell. It is lost when they leave Rifts Earth, unlike inborn spells by mystics.

I don't know if these would register as magic or psychic. It could be something else. I'm not even sure dog boys power can discern between magic and psi. It is lumped together. I figure they zero in on something odd and use additional powers like "sense magic" or "detect psionics" which does distinguish to learn more

[Blue_Lion]

frankly, i don't think the CS is going to be terribly gung-ho about sending off random squads into the magic zone. or, alternately, they will... but they'll be skelebot squads that just kill everything they come across indiscriminately, and likely won't do much of anything in terms of stopping the magic pigeons.

IIRC, they already do send squads into the Magic Zone.
The FoM book I believe mentions them not being able to find Dweomer, and being vexed because Stormspire moves to evade their attacks.

So they are unable to find the capitol cities of the Federation (as the City of Brass is also hidden)...
...but they will some how manage to unerringly find and kill any mage that even thinks of sending a pigeon at the Burbs before they can cast their spell.
Rrriiiiiiigggggghhhhht
I got a bridge I can sell ya too.

Apparently the bridge comes with a free strawman.
Neat!

Detecting an attempt to under mine your security is not the same as finding a hidden city.
Odds are the hidden cities are not the launching point of such attacks.
In addition most hidden cities use defenders to kill those that might discover them that they do not want to.
Hidden cities also would likely see such and action as an attempt to lead the CS or other enemy to the city and may kill the person for attempting to undermine the security if you did so from inside them.

So if lets say a Psi was fallowing clues to find the city, and the normal hiding method would not stop him from finding it the defenders kill them and make it look like bandits or monsters attacked or just plain hide the evidence. If it happens sufficient and area might have a reputation of being high risk, but that is still along way from finding the location of a city.

[Shark_Force]

if the CS can't find the cities, and the cities are full of spellcasters, why *wouldn't* the cities be the starting point for (at least some of) these attacks?

and incidentally, the fact that the CS can't use clairvoyance parties to discover the location of those cities doesn't bode well for their ability to discover the location of a random place in the wilderness

[Blue_Lion]

if the CS can't find the cities, and the cities are full of spellcasters, why *wouldn't* the cities be the starting point for (at least some of) these attacks?

and incidentally, the fact that the CS can't use clairvoyance parties to discover the location of those cities doesn't bode well for their ability to discover the location of a random place in the wilderness

Because doing so leaves a trail that would undermine the security the city, the defenders of the city would have the same ability to detect that threat before it happens as the CS does.

Like I said it is not the same thing. The spirit of clavoince is detecting something and trying to stop it. Not finding something that you do not know about, or its location.

So the spirit of the power would lead you to stop an active attempt to undermine the security of your city, the reverse is true it can be used to stop you from undermining the security of another city.


So finding a group doing something that is a threat in the woods is well within the scope of the power while finding a place people hide that they have active defenses in place is a whole other can of worms. To maintain the hidden city they would have to avoid being the point that people take a direct action to undermine the security or attack another city.

The power is about stopping something by getting clues from the future. IE if you concentration on your girl friend it will provide clues to stop something from happening. It provides guide post to help you prevent something it is not a X on the map.

Concentrating on a unknown city that you are not friends with might provide information about something that happens in the city such as a party or the death of a leader but will not lead you to the city.

(The problem with all these sure fire ideas people seam to have is they are not looking at a larger picture. They do not look for the counter and how different things interact.)

Making me defend the evil CS shame on you guys. Can I go back to playing a mage now?

[Killer Cyborg]

if the CS can't find the cities, and the cities are full of spellcasters, why *wouldn't* the cities be the starting point for (at least some of) these attacks?

and incidentally, the fact that the CS can't use clairvoyance parties to discover the location of those cities doesn't bode well for their ability to discover the location of a random place in the wilderness

Because they can't find magically protected cities, they can't find random places in the wilderness?

[flatline]

Clairvoyance is a tool for the GM, not the players.

It's a way for the GM to feed the player characters information. The information is not guaranteed to be factual or even useful, but most characters (and players) will assume that knowing this information will help them somehow (which also isn't guaranteed and I've known GMs to purposely mislead players via clairvoyance).

It's a way for the GM to set the mood of the game.

It's a way for the GM to explain how opponents might know something that they have no other way of knowing.

Any player who expects to be able to use clairvoyance for their own gain is fooling themselves. Any GM that allows NPCs to routinely gain actionable information from clairvoyance will break their own setting. And if NPCs can't do it, then any consistent GM will rule that PCs can't do it either.

So don't waste a slot on it.

--flatline

[Eagle]

Clairvoyance is a tool for the GM, not the players.

It's a way for the GM to feed the player characters information. The information is not guaranteed to be factual or even useful, but most characters (and players) will assume that knowing this information will help them somehow (which also isn't guaranteed and I've known GMs to purposely mislead players via clairvoyance).

It's a way for the GM to set the mood of the game.

It's a way for the GM to explain how opponents might know something that they have no other way of knowing.

Any player who expects to be able to use clairvoyance for their own gain is fooling themselves. Any GM that allows NPCs to routinely gain actionable information from clairvoyance will break their own setting. And if NPCs can't do it, then any consistent GM will rule that PCs can't do it either.

So don't waste a slot on it.

--flatline

Let's be honest about what Clairvoyance is. It's Luke Skywalker saying "Han and Leia are in trouble! I must go to them!" It's Danny Torrance seeing his father carrying an axe, and shouting "Redrum!"

It's supposed to be useful without forcing the GM to reveal the entire plot to the PCs. It lets the players have information that they wouldn't otherwise be able to obtain. It's a great power to use when you're stuck and you don't know what to do next. The GM can just feed you some information and let you move on to the next part of the story. It's a wonderful power, definitely use a slot for it.

As far as NPCs using it? It's a great way to prevent a powerful and threatening NPC from falling prey to a stupid cheap shot.

[Killer Cyborg]

Any GM that allows NPCs to routinely gain actionable information from clairvoyance will break their own setting.

Care to elaborate?
I don't follow your meaning.

[flatline]

Any GM that allows NPCs to routinely gain actionable information from clairvoyance will break their own setting.

Care to elaborate?
I don't follow your meaning.

Reliably gaining actionable information via Clairvoyance means that any organization with a relatively large number of psychics (Atlantis, CS, etc) can never be blind-sided or, in the worst case, would be effectively omniscient (aka Clairvoyance-net).

Having a regional power that always knows the right move (or at least is always aware of everyone else's moves) ruins the game.

--flatline

[Axelmania]

Seeing the future may leave out context and cause bad interpretations. TV series spinoff Minority Report has that as a running theme.

[Shark_Force]

if the CS can't find the cities, and the cities are full of spellcasters, why *wouldn't* the cities be the starting point for (at least some of) these attacks?

and incidentally, the fact that the CS can't use clairvoyance parties to discover the location of those cities doesn't bode well for their ability to discover the location of a random place in the wilderness

Because they can't find magically protected cities, they can't find random places in the wilderness?

well, probably not. i mean, it's not guaranteed. if you pick a random place in the wilderness that has a large sign with your precise longitude and latitude, you may be in trouble. likewise, you should probably not choose a random place in the wilderness that is right next to a large and obvious landmark. but in my experience, the location of a city is far more likely to yield usable landmarks than "some place in the forest that has lots of trees and a pretty big grey rock". unless the psychic in question has literally lived in that location, even if clairvoyance *does* give them an image of the location, they're simply not likely to be able to recognize it, and even if the CS *does* have an image library of every single part of the wilderness from multiple angles, you're not going to be able to sort through them all in anything like a reasonable amount of time, and if you were to try to do so, they would probably all blur into an indiscernable mass of vaguely-similar places.

and also, the fact that the CS has an incredibly large amount of motivation to find the location of those cities and yet has not done so with clairvoyance kind of implies that it isn't very good at answering that sort of question. because if it was as simple as asking "where is [city name here]" and then you get a vision that answers the question, i have to presume that the CS are not so incompetent that they can't follow decent instructions on where to go to find something. in much the same way that i suspect "how can i defeat the xiticix" or "what is the most important secret the CS is keeping from me" are not going to get you something you can expect to get a useful answer out of.

[Killer Cyborg]

Any GM that allows NPCs to routinely gain actionable information from clairvoyance will break their own setting.

Care to elaborate?
I don't follow your meaning.

Reliably gaining actionable information via Clairvoyance means that any organization with a relatively large number of psychics (Atlantis, CS, etc) can never be blind-sided or, in the worst case, would be effectively omniscient (aka Clairvoyance-net).

That sounds kind of like saying, "reliably gaining actionable information via wiretaps means that any organization with the ability to wiretap can never be blind-sided, and would be effectively omniscient."

A tool being fairly reliable, and providing actionable information, is not the same as never being able to be surprised, nor as being omniscient.

[flatline]

Any GM that allows NPCs to routinely gain actionable information from clairvoyance will break their own setting.

Care to elaborate?
I don't follow your meaning.

Reliably gaining actionable information via Clairvoyance means that any organization with a relatively large number of psychics (Atlantis, CS, etc) can never be blind-sided or, in the worst case, would be effectively omniscient (aka Clairvoyance-net).

That sounds kind of like saying, "reliably gaining actionable information via wiretaps means that any organization with the ability to wiretap can never be blind-sided, and would be effectively omniscient."

A tool being fairly reliable, and providing actionable information, is not the same as never being able to be surprised, nor as being omniscient.

It's a poor comparison since precautions can be taken by folks who are worried about their phones being tapped. What precautions can be taken against Clairvoyance?

--flatline

[HWalsh]

Any GM that allows NPCs to routinely gain actionable information from clairvoyance will break their own setting.

Care to elaborate?
I don't follow your meaning.

Reliably gaining actionable information via Clairvoyance means that any organization with a relatively large number of psychics (Atlantis, CS, etc) can never be blind-sided or, in the worst case, would be effectively omniscient (aka Clairvoyance-net).

That sounds kind of like saying, "reliably gaining actionable information via wiretaps means that any organization with the ability to wiretap can never be blind-sided, and would be effectively omniscient."

A tool being fairly reliable, and providing actionable information, is not the same as never being able to be surprised, nor as being omniscient.

It's a poor comparison since precautions can be taken by folks who are worried about their phones being tapped. What precautions can be taken against Clairvoyance?

--flatline

The problem is this... If we assume that it is as accurate as it is... How the bloody heck did Tolkeen get blindsided by the CS forces coming out of the Xitcitix territory? How did they not know Free Quebec was going to jump in on the side of the CS? What happens if we start applying these across the board?

So Tolkeen knows that the CS troopers are alive in Xitcitix territory, they send someone in wearing deadboy armor to take pot shots at the nests near where the CS is. Suddenly that whole squad never intervenes. The Tolkeen forces know that the CS is massing a counter assault and so teleport atomic bombs into their ranks while they are en-route towards Tolkeen destroying the bulk of the CS reinforcements.

I mean, that is the problem with it, why do these powers always seem to work for the CS but never anyone else? I mean, heck the CS are babies compared to the other groups when it comes to their understanding of Psionics and Magic.

[Eagle]

The problem is this... If we assume that it is as accurate as it is... How the bloody heck did Tolkeen get blindsided by the CS forces coming out of the Xitcitix territory? How did they not know Free Quebec was going to jump in on the side of the CS? What happens if we start applying these across the board?

So Tolkeen knows that the CS troopers are alive in Xitcitix territory, they send someone in wearing deadboy armor to take pot shots at the nests near where the CS is. Suddenly that whole squad never intervenes. The Tolkeen forces know that the CS is massing a counter assault and so teleport atomic bombs into their ranks while they are en-route towards Tolkeen destroying the bulk of the CS reinforcements.

I mean, that is the problem with it, why do these powers always seem to work for the CS but never anyone else? I mean, heck the CS are babies compared to the other groups when it comes to their understanding of Psionics and Magic.

Everything happens because of the needs of the plot. That's the answer. And some people are going to say "Aha! Plot armor for the Coalition!" But it's plot armor for everybody. RIFTS is not a balanced enough game for most of the things in it to actually survive living there. The Empire of the Sun in South America has 10,000 demigods living in it. They could wipe out the vampire empire that sits on their border in like one afternoon of effort. And yet, for some reason they don't.

This thread started with the idea that, going purely by the book, there was this unbeatable cheap shot that a sorcerer could use against the Coalition. I think it's been shown that there's a perfectly valid, by the book counter to it. Why doesn't the Coalition do that sort of thing more often? Because of the other guy's plot armor.

[eliakon]

Clairvoyance is a tool for the GM, not the players.

It's a way for the GM to feed the player characters information. The information is not guaranteed to be factual or even useful, but most characters (and players) will assume that knowing this information will help them somehow (which also isn't guaranteed and I've known GMs to purposely mislead players via clairvoyance).

It's a way for the GM to set the mood of the game.

It's a way for the GM to explain how opponents might know something that they have no other way of knowing.

Any player who expects to be able to use clairvoyance for their own gain is fooling themselves. Any GM that allows NPCs to routinely gain actionable information from clairvoyance will break their own setting. And if NPCs can't do it, then any consistent GM will rule that PCs can't do it either.

So don't waste a slot on it.

--flatline

Let's be honest about what Clairvoyance is. It's Luke Skywalker saying "Han and Leia are in trouble! I must go to them!" It's Danny Torrance seeing his father carrying an axe, and shouting "Redrum!"

It's supposed to be useful without forcing the GM to reveal the entire plot to the PCs. It lets the players have information that they wouldn't otherwise be able to obtain. It's a great power to use when you're stuck and you don't know what to do next. The GM can just feed you some information and let you move on to the next part of the story. It's a wonderful power, definitely use a slot for it.

As far as NPCs using it? It's a great way to prevent a powerful and threatening NPC from falling prey to a stupid cheap shot.

This is good.
And remember Clairvoyance is NOT the Spaceballs sitting around fast forwarding the tape of the plot to find out what happens next.