Ley Line Walkers & Psionics
Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:26 pm
Hey guys,
How would Psionics (Minor) mesh with being a L.L.W. ??
Thx in advance,
D69
How would Psionics (Minor) mesh with being a L.L.W. ??
Thx in advance,
D69
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say652 wrote:Perfectly, major would wipe out most of the skill slots for a LLW.
Deathknight69 wrote:Hey guys,
How would Psionics (Minor) mesh with being a L.L.W. ??
Thx in advance,
D69
Deathknight69 wrote:Hey guys,
How would Psionics (Minor) mesh with being a L.L.W. ??
Thx in advance,
D69
say652 wrote:Perfectly, major would wipe out most of the skill slots for a LLW.
eliakon wrote:As of RUE there is no penalty for psionics.
Nekira Sudacne wrote:As Elakon said, RUE removed penalties for being a major psychic. it's now merely a matter of random dice.
glitterboy2098 wrote:page 289, Character Creation, under Step 4: Determine psionics.
for comparison, look at the old RMMB, pg 12, which is also step 4 of character creation.
Axelmania wrote:glitterboy2098 wrote:page 289, Character Creation, under Step 4: Determine psionics.
for comparison, look at the old RMMB, pg 12, which is also step 4 of character creation.
Thanks for pointing this out. I believe it is plausible this was just removed for space considerations though. Page 289 mentions taking a peek at Psyscape, and Psyscape has the "OCC modification" notes on page 33. Those would still hold. Unless we're explicitly told that there is no longer a skill reduction for majors, I would not take the omitted re-mention of that as the erasure of the content's existence.
Axelmania wrote:Rules in core books can be supplemented by additional rules in supplementary books. Psyscape is the go-to psionics book so it has additional rules on limiting skills to consider.
Willy Elektrix wrote:I have a question about random psionic powers. If a character is randomly a minor or major psionic, how many powers and how much ISP do they have?
The Arkon in SA2 have a high probability of random psychic powers, but no indicator of what those powers should be. I thought there was a chart for this in RUE, but I can’t seem find it.
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:In my opinion is that the removing of the skill penalties for being a major and minor psychic were a bad move, if you wanted a realistic rules set. This is because it removes the 'I spent TIME developing these powers' idea from the equation.
ShadowLogan wrote:drewkitty ~..~ wrote:In my opinion is that the removing of the skill penalties for being a major and minor psychic were a bad move, if you wanted a realistic rules set. This is because it removes the 'I spent TIME developing these powers' idea from the equation.
Major Psychics DO get penalized in terms of skills as you described, but NOT Minor Psychics (Rifts Main Book, Palladium Fantasy 2E) as part of the standard character creation process (ignoring OCC/RCCs that handle it on their own).
I can agree on removing it from Majors in RUE was a bad move, but Minors haven't been penalized AFAIK (if ever as I don't have PF1E/R or other applicable settings). Granted I can also see why Palladium did it given that OCCs (and RCCs) that roll for Psychic level don't use those modifiers in the past (ex: Cyber-Knight), so for greater consistency seems a likely explanation.
dreicunan wrote:The groups that I played with always scrapped the penalty anyways, specifically because the penalty was so uneven based on how many skills you got. We also found it kind of laughable that having a few extra psionic powers somehow magically made you worse at math or speaking or reading one's native language than someone of the same intelligence and class without psionic powers or with a few less. A strange attempt at "balance" in a game that can have a vagabond without super powers, a dragon hatchling, and an immortal demi-god mega-hero in the same party.
I should probably clarify: it wasn't the concept in itself, but the execution. That was why I cited those specific skills (native language, math), although I should have specified basic math to make it more clear. The idea that having 4-6 more powers than someone with minor meant ALL your OCC and OCC Related skill bonuses got halved, as though that extra effort to develop those powers took away from everything else equally, and that you ALSO lost half the OCC related skills, just seemed over the top, especially since this permanent sacrifice keeps affecting you but you have no more opportunity for growth on the psychic side of things (apart from a bit of ISP per level, IIRC).Shark_Force wrote:dreicunan wrote:The groups that I played with always scrapped the penalty anyways, specifically because the penalty was so uneven based on how many skills you got. We also found it kind of laughable that having a few extra psionic powers somehow magically made you worse at math or speaking or reading one's native language than someone of the same intelligence and class without psionic powers or with a few less. A strange attempt at "balance" in a game that can have a vagabond without super powers, a dragon hatchling, and an immortal demi-god mega-hero in the same party.
it makes perfect sense if you presume that training psychic powers takes time, in much the same way that training skills takes time.
or, more specifically, if you presume that the main difference between major and minor psionic categories is that the major psionics character has worked to develop their talent in place of developing other things (specifically, skills), while a minor psionics character did not. certainly, we know that master psionic characters are noted as having worked to develop their psionic powers, and typically have fewer regular skills in their OCCs.
of course, the new version doesn't really support that interpretation, but it isn't like there was never a reasonable explanation for why you might have fewer skills. (the oddness of the number of lost skills being so wildly different is certainly something i'd consider odd, but just losing skills not so much).
Axelmania wrote:Psyscape is not canon to the new dimension called Ultimate Rifts Earth, I guess, if we're ignoring that it reinforces the skill penalties just because, like many things, it was omitted from the Ultimate Edition for space.
Spells present in the Rifts Main Book / Federation of Magic / Book of Magic must also not exist in Ultimate Rifts Earth if they were not reprinted in Ultimate Edition. If a spell was not printed in Ultimate Edition, this means Siembieda was telling us that the spell is no longer canon.
Reminder to everyone that since the "2 ISP for sleep or rest" rule and "all psychics can meditate" rule is from the original Rifts, that per Rifts Ultimate Edition a psychic must spend a lesser psionic power on Meditation to be able to regenerate ISP.
This would mean that the usual minor psychics would be limited to 1 power (meditation is listed under sensitive/physical/healing), Crazies to 2 powers (RUE 55) and major psychics to 5 (mixed) or 7 (single category) other powers, in addition to meditation, if they opted for it (as I imagine most players would do when designing the character, if the necessity occurred to them)
It would be possible for psychics to abstain from selecting meditation, but that would mean they would have no obvious means of restoring ISP, like if you brought over the 'Restore ISP' power from Nightbane: Between the Shadows so that other psychics could help you, which would be pretty interesting.
One in-book example would be the 'Group Trance' power on RUE 179. It doesn't regenerate your ISP but does allow you to power your abilities using the ISP of others in the group. Given it is a super psionic power, of the Ultimate classs, that's only going to be a concern of Mind Melters (pg 151) and 4th/8th level Mystics (pg 119).
Mystics and Mind Melters both have plenty of lesser power selections at 1st level to be able to select Meditation though.
If you want to bring Mind Melters back up to their 12 per hour glory they had in Rifts originally, that would require allowing the selection of Super Psionics from Heroes Unlimited 2nd Edition page 309, the "Advanced Trance State" power which costs 10 to activate lets you regenerate 12/hour, so after 2 hours (24-10=14) you have already surpassed basic meditation (12 per 2 hours) speeds.
That also has the benefit of doubling the rate of healing. You also hover, which can be bad if you don't want people to know your psychic, but good if there are rats scurrying about on the floors. The power also gives you the option of doing a stasis for 1/10 metabolism negating the need to eat or drink and requiring 1/10 the air and stopping toxins/drugs/disease until your meditation ends (by 6th level you can meditate a full 2 days which cures them) and it lets you sense danger.
This power would fit conceptually with Mystics too, and is more independent than relying on Group Trances with other psychics to power your abilities. Another huge benefit is since this is a super psionic power, if you were from Psyscape then a Mind Melter could select this as their super psionic power to receive double effect, which should let you regenerate 24 ISP per hour using it. Mystics can't do that since they're only major psychics.
Even if I had Group Trance I would still want to get normal Meditation though, because it costs 0 to use, so if you were down to 9 or fewer, using GT would not be an option. Plus if you only had 1 hour breaks to meditate, would only net you 2 ISP.
Dog Boys (pg 146) usually only get a single psychic sensitive power, but since they regenerate 2 per hour of activity and 12 per hour of sleep (which a Mind Melter apparently no longer does, unless you are open to inheriting the original Rifts rules, which conflicts with "if it's not in Ultimate it was intentionally left out" assumptions) they don't need it.
I believe it may be necessary for them to select the power to access the superior 12/hour rate listed without sleeping, thus the "rate as indicated under each psychic O.C.C., otherwise six" notation on RUE 165. If you got the hourly meditation rate listed under psychic OCCs for free then there would be no point in selecting the power.
Bursters (pg 141) have to select their initial 3 minor psionic powers from a list, which does not include Meditation, so they would not be able to select it until 3rd level.
For psychics who do not buy the meditation power and do not have a "per hour of activity" or "per hour of sleep" rate to fall back on to restore their base, an additional option exists via the Protection Circle: Superior spell on RUE 224. If they can manage the 20 PPE it costs to activate it, that will give them 10 ISP. Obviously the Mystic is the best-off in this respect since they have a large enough base to do that in one go, and can supplement their hourly rates with PPE drawn from ley lines or other people.
Since a Mind Melter has at most 8 points, they're obviously going to need to get help from someone else to do this.
RUE 227 mentions the Talisman spell on page 150 of the Book of Magic, so a mage could possibly lend you that. The initial 50 PPE charge is 2 potential activations of a protection circle (though if a Melter had 8, they would only need to draw 12 from the battery each time, allowing 4 possible activations) and 30 after a recharge (costing creator mage, Demon Lord or god 60) is 1 potential activation (or 2 if, as above, you supplement it with at least 5 PPE each time).
Since a Talisman can store 3 spells instead of 50/30 PPE, the option also exists to have it store the 3rd level spell Life Source (FoM 132, BoM 97). It is intended to provide PPE for spellcasting, but I think it would remain within the spirit to allow PPE generated from it to power a protection circle.
The damage it does to you can't be healed with bio-regeneration or magic, but I can't see anything preventing other psychics from using healing touch / increased healing to help.
Of course, to compete with a 30 PPE battery, you'd need to be able to get more than 10 PPE per go. Since it inflicts penalties for an unknown duration (I would figure they should go away when you heal the damage, but it doesn't say that) if you reach 10 SDC or 5 HP, that means (for 8 SDC and 4 HP) you can only get 8 PPE from it before incurring penalties.
A third trick would be a techno-wizard device that can store PPE (RUE 131) where they could pump in 5 PPE, rest or sleep an hour, repeat 4 times.
Interesting, when RUE 186 mentions this, the wording is broad enough that you might be able to weedle this into an interpretation of how to regain ISP without meditation...Like psionic I.S.P., the loss of P.P.E. points is temporary, and they will replenish themselves naturally at a rate of about five points for every hour of rest or sleep (or as indicated under the specific O.C.C.)
I'm pretty sure "they" and "themselves" is intended just to refer to PPE points and not both ISP and PPE, but given the glaring absence of ISP regeneration without the meditation power for the Minor/Major/Mystic/Melter someone who really wanted to give them a power boost could opt to interpret this as referring to both, to give a 5 per hour of rest/sleep rate.
That would still retain incentive to select the Meditation power, since that would increase it to 6 per hour if you meditated.
Arguably, since meditation can be viewed as a form of rest, you could add them together to get 11 per hour.
Lack of ISP regeneration wouldn't be utterly crippling if a minor psychic opted to not select meditation. There's a couple mitigators for sensitives:Someone with Astral Projection can go to the Astral Plane, which is populated by creatures from the Nightbane RPG who would have access to the Restore ISP power to help you out, and plenty of time to do so.
Someone with Sense Evil (RUE 176) works without spending ISP, ISP is only spend to get a clearer picture.
Someone with Telepathy (RUE 177) is open to access with longer-range 2-way communications. It doesn't clearly say that both telepaths need to spend ISP to do this, so it might well allow a Telepath at 0 ISP to have a telepathic conversation so long as the other Telepath spends the ISP to activate the channel.
Plus, if a Mystic or Mind Melter didn't have a means of regenerating ISP, might as well get Mind-Block Auto-Defense and sacrifice some of their base in exchange for not having any activation cost.
Minor/Major Psychics who don't start out with meditation and don't get new powers as they increase in experience levels would be unique candidates for Coalition States Psi-Implants. Since meditation is now a power under all 3 lesser categories (when Nightbane listed it, like Mind Block it was only a Sensitive or Physical choice, though I don't know why they bothered since the Psychic PCC started with it... maybe so Guardians RCC / Mystic OCC could get it, since they could get sensitive or healer... not sure point of listing it physical then) that would (WB 12 pg 152) allow the Booster, Actuator, Sensitive, Physical or Eruptor implants to all have a chance of instilling it.
The CS Psi-Weapon Gauntlet (Psyscape pg 154) doesn't have a listed cost for its Electrokinetic Punches/Blasts, so that could also be an option for a minor psychic at 0 ISP unable to regenerate it. This could be an important weapon in battling Astral Travelers invading the Coalition States. Sure, Power Armor is usually a better investment for 1.6 million, but that can't deal with ghosts!
Simply being able to used charged telekinetic Techno-Wizard items (even if others do the charging) would also be a major benefit of being a minor psychic stuck at 0 ISP. Especially since as above, they might be able to spend their PPE, which restores 5/rest for everyone. Unless I missed something about only mages being able to spend PPE to charge TW.
Unfortunately, while mages can retrieve PPE from TW devices as of RUE, I don't think that works for if you charge it with ISP.
RockJock wrote:If you interpret that RUE requires the original main book, or even Psycape to fill in holes regarding basic character creation then Palladium needs to scrap the entire book, or issue an online "fix" for RUE at the very least.
J_cobbers wrote:Also you are wrongy-wrong-wrong on mediation being the only way for ISP recovery, it is still 2 per hour of sleep, 6 per hour of standard meditation (per the power if the Character has it and mind you even randomly minor psychic characters get 2 powers under RUE pg 289) and 12 or more for some psychic OCC's see pg 366 RUE. I'm guessing you just missed it cause RUE moved rules around haphazardly compared to the RMB.
J_cobbers wrote:So yes it is a rule from RMB, but is reprinted and still exists in RUE. Which means your whole analysis is interesting for alternate means of ISP, but unneeded for ISP recovery in general. Every psychic Character recovers at a rate of 2 ISP per hour of sleep as a base line, and some who elect to take the meditation power get it back faster, and others have a better natural recovery rate than others.
J_cobbers wrote:Your are right totally about Mind Melters, they got nerfed on ISP recovery either intentionally or by oversight, so they better pick up mediation for the 6 per hour recovery rate! Does it suck and seem like a glaring mistake, yep, but thems the RUE RAW, and part of the reason lots of us use house rules.
J_cobbers wrote:Importantly IMHO Meditation does not = sleep. Meditation is an conscious activity
J_cobbers wrote:Psi-stalkers have it best and get ISP back at a rate of 12 per hour of sleep or meditation (so if they can't sleep they can meditate too) RUE Pg 154.
Axelmania wrote:Don't they? They're so versatile... having crud meditation compared to the specialists is kinda cool.
Axelmania wrote:This has me interested in how you'd classify the super psionics you didn't mention, RCO / IOP / IIE
Electrokinesis seems pretty useful even in RMB when it did SDC, as of RUE when it gives MD attacks even moreso.
Empathic Transmission has manipulative potential in cases where you don't want to talk to the people you're pushing.
Hydrokinesis would be pretty important if you lacked the gear to test for decent water while adventuring.
Assuming you left out Mentally Possess Others / Mind Wipe / Psi-Sword due to the 3rd level req?
Mind Bond is an amazing interrogative tool if you have a prisoner.
Pyrokinesis would be great for if you smell smoke but are not sure where a fire is in your house, or if you want to survive in a cold outdoor environment, I think it got an MD boost in RUE too like Electro.
Telekinetic Force Field is just plain amazing protection which could save a lot of repair fees and help in rescuing others.
Recovering ISP slowly doesn't mean they suck... perhaps specialists like the Burster/Stalker can regain faster because of their narrow focus. I think they have smaller ISP pools too, so they'd need to use it often for it to make a difference, but the lack of versatility means fewer opportunities to do that.
I wouldn't say most versatile psionic EVER but they're a top contender. What others do you refer to? Natural mind melters like The Dreamer or Neo-Humans or the Mind Mage / Mind Master from PF/NB?
Shark_Force wrote:electrokinesis as an attack suffers from the same thing as everything else that isn't super telekinesis. way less damage per ISP spent combine with way worse range. the rest of it isn't useless... but it is highly situational.
Shark_Force wrote:empathic transmission has very little impact against someone you're not going to talk to most of the time. also, kinda niche.
Shark_Force wrote:i left out mentally possess others/mind wipe/psi-sword because they're not that great. mentally possess others is short duration, requires you to touch the target, costs a lot of ISP, and leaves you vulnerable to any random schmuck who wanders by your own body.
Shark_Force wrote:mind wipe is probably one of the more useful options when you need it... which shouldn't come up that often. very niche.
Shark_Force wrote:psi-sword takes a full melee round to activate, and the damage quite frankly isn't even that impressive until very high levels. you can do similar damage, at range, with a laser rifle. and you don't need to spend 15 seconds watching your friends get killed to use it.
Shark_Force wrote:but again, i must stress: RANGE. it's kinda important. if you want to do damage with psionics, use super telekinesis. it lets you do respectable damage (with a bit of preparation and by investing some money, *very* respectable damage), and it lets you do it without running up right next to someone.
Shark_Force wrote:mind bond if you're interrogating a prisoner, first of all a decent skill (which you could probably have if you weren't a mind melter and severely starved for skills) can be used for interrogations. secondly, telepathy lets you do quite a bit in interrogation too.
Shark_Force wrote:thirdly, mind bond turns the other person into a gigantic liability because now they also know everything you know, too.
Shark_Force wrote:and when the majority of those things you're trying to sell me on cost 20-30 ISP (or sometimes more), then quite frankly, having a terrible ISP regen rate *does* make you pretty bad at psionics.
Shark_Force wrote:you're not very versatile if you blow your load in 5 seconds and then you need a full day of not doing anything to be able to do anything at all;
Axelmania wrote:Has Psyscape had another print run since 2005?
Did they remove the major skill penalties?
Axelmania wrote:If the original printing date is what matters, then Rifts came out in 1990.
If you want to treat RUE as a separate game then you can go with 2005.
If you believe the omission of these rules in RUE was intentional even though it doesn't say not to apply penalties, then I can also believe the retention of these penalties in Psyscape was also intentional.
Axelmania wrote:Denials are changes. Omissions are different. RUE had limited space so some canon was cut but remains canon. Spells, dragons, vehicles, attacks, penalties.