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I'm aware of a contest in the PFRPG that was for ranged weapons of all kinds.

I am specifically interested in Bows (as in bows and arrows) only and specifically NOT cross bows.

I am open to anything in the official megaverse that is NOT magic.

Modern, compound, high tech, pulleys, special materials, special weapon-smithing, all good.

NOTE: It seems that there is some sort of price fixing type scam in the Palladium system that no Bow does more than 2D6 damage. What the heck is that about?

PLEASE be sure to list source and page number.

Thanks for the help.

tsh77769

From Rifts:
-Laser Bow (Spirit West, WB15 pg215), effectively you carry 500 arrows before needing servicing (how many can carry that in weight/volume), superior range (base, I'm not sure if archery skill would enhance the effective range), you lose versatility though since you can't fire arrows normally (a potential issue). An easy to reach PS score is required to use the weapon
-SN PS powered bows (Larhold RCCs in SA2 pg186 & 190, Spirit West pg203), the bow from Spirit West can be handled w/o SN PS, but requires a very high regular PS
-Steeltree Bow (Dinosaur Swamp, WB26 pg79), requires a high PS score to use

If you are looking for the best non-magic bow, it depends on a few factors:
-what your PS looks like
-what you consider "magical" in this case
-how versatile you want the bow to be

NOTE: It seems that there is some sort of price fixing type scam in the Palladium system that no Bow does more than 2D6 damage. What the heck is that about?

2d6? Steeltree bows can do 4d6 SDC when using non-MDC materials (in Rifts), the Larhold bows do damage based on users SN PS score, the Spirit west bow adds 3d6 damage if made of non-MDC materials (arrow is only good for one shot though). That also ignores some of the trick Arrow options (in HU2E pg134 you can get explosive arrows x3 more powerful, Rifts are even more powerful and they are C&Ped in various books)

EDIT: corrected an incorrect page assignment and tried to make a statement a bit clearer

The best non-magical bow in the Megaverse is a tall order. Once you open this up to all books there's a LOT of options to mix and match. When you say "best," what is the criteria by which the bow and arrows will be judged?

The spirit bow from Spirit West is not eligible as it is magic.

SELECTION CRITERIA REFINEMENT: I'm thinking SDC bows. That's why I put this in HU instead of Rifts. My first desire would be for something that does more than 2D6. My second desire would be for strike bonuses. My third desire would be for long range.

It actually looks like the Heroes Unlimited game line has pretty much everything you need.

Check out the SC Penetrator III on page 181 of Aliens Unlimited Revised: 1,000 foot range, 4D6 base damage. That's good, but we're going to make it better. You don't want to just buy that Alien bow off of the Alien Department Store shelf and start using it. Instead just visit your friendly neighborhood Alien Ancient Weapon Master (Powers Unlimited 2, pages 90-93) and ask her very nicely to make you one. For a -60% penalty she can create a bow from scratch to increase the damage by 1d6 and the range by 100%. For an additional -35%, the Weapons Master can apply the "Penalties for Ancient Weapons" in the Hardware: Weapons power category of HU2 page 132, which allow the weapon forged from scratch to have superior balance and damage (+1 to strike, +2 to parry, and +4 to damage).

You may note we now have a -95% penalty to make a weapon with a skill which is only 84% +1% per additional level of experience. There is a +12% bonus when making the weapon from scratch, bringing the skill up to 96% + 1% per additional level. A slim chance for success at level 1, but with I.Q. bonus and levels the percentage can get slightly better. But it you have money and time, eventually the skill roll will be successful and you'll have your bow. But what will you shoot from it?

Kisentite Explosive Arrows, that's what.

Kisentite adds 1D6 to ancient weapon damage per the paragraph above the weapon chart on page 175 of Aliens Unlimited Revised (since the bow has its own arrow damage rating I'm ignoring the damage listing for a Kisentite arrow and instead using the guidelines noted). And page 134 of Heroes Unlimited 2nd Edition offers explosive arrowheads which can do up to 6D6 damage to a blast radius of only 2 feet (and a -10% to range, which is actually fairly significant for this weapon).

Bottom line, this is what you end up with: A custom SC Penetrator III that fires explosive tipped Kissentite arrows. Damage is 12D6+4 (with 6D6 of that damage being done to everything within a 2 foot blast radius), a range of 1,800 feet, +1 to strike, and +2 to parry.

If for some reason you're not trying to make something explode, the weapon without explosive tipped arrows only does 6D6+4 damage to a range of 2,000 feet.

OMG!! I think I love you!!

I thought there was some bows in AU but had misplaced my book (also my AU is the original, not the revised version, how are they different?). I totally did have PU2 available but didn't even think about the Ancient Weapons Master. By RAW, the HU pg 132 "penalties for ancient weapons" certainly could include bows. Never thought about that.

I think you just won, big time.

I have just a couple questions or nit picks.

HU pg 121 shows that Hardware characters can have a skill go over 100%. My PU2 1st printing shows no such provision for the AWM. Logically and by house rule it certainly should apply to the AWM for the same reason as the Hardware Weapons guy. However, by RAW, at least in the 1st printing, it isn't there. Likewise I don't see anything, by RAW, allowing an AWM from PU2 to use the "penalties for ancient weapons" from HU 132.

Is the 6D6 damage for the explosive arrows in addition to the regular arrow damage or instead of it? I ask because 1D6 or @d6 would be equal to or less than regular longbow/compound bow damage of 2D6.

tsh77769

tsh77769 wrote:OMG!! I think I love you!!

I thought there was some bows in AU but had misplaced my book (also my AU is the original, not the revised version, how are they different?).

AU revised updates the aliens to HU2 versions. Not sure if the weapon info is changed.

tsh77769 wrote:I totally did have PU2 available but didn't even think about the Ancient Weapons Master. By RAW, the HU pg 132 "penalties for ancient weapons" certainly could include bows. Never thought about that.

I think you just won, big time.

I have just a couple questions or nit picks.

HU pg 121 shows that Hardware characters can have a skill go over 100%. My PU2 1st printing shows no such provision for the AWM. Logically and by house rule it certainly should apply to the AWM for the same reason as the Hardware Weapons guy. However, by RAW, at least in the 1st printing, it isn't there.

I noticed that too, which is why the Ancient Weapons Master is an alien, so the additional penalties of working on alien gear/tech won't apply.

tsh77769 wrote:Likewise I don't see anything, by RAW, allowing an AWM from PU2 to use the "penalties for ancient weapons" from HU 132.

At the beginning of the HU2 Hardware section it says the penalties of their special skills apply to anyone trying to do those things, not just the Hardware characters. It also says that other skills can be used to do that stuff.

tsh77769 wrote:Is the 6D6 damage for the explosive arrows in addition to the regular arrow damage or instead of it? I ask because 1D6 or @d6 would be equal to or less than regular longbow/compound bow damage of 2D6.

tsh77769

In my write-up it was in addition, which is how the damage made it to 12D6+4.The built from scratch bow with a regular arrow does 5D6+4 per shot. Using a Kissentite arrow that becomes 6D6+4 damage per shot. Since Kissentite is so durable (same AU section as the other Kissentite reference) I figured the arrow would get to do it's damage even if it was tipped with an explosive arrowhead. This the reason for the two numbers combined.

BTW, a question on a matter of opinion.

IIRC the bow you referred to from AU specifically says that the string alone is the source of propulsion and that it can be used as a blunt weapon.

So, why could this thing not have the appearance and form of a staff with a grip in the center (if that would even be needed) and be used as a staff, including WP staff bonuses?

I don't think it would be right to try to apply craft based bonuses to both the bow and the blunt weapon element. That is of course, beyond the +2 to parry from HU 132 (applying the +1 to strike and +4 to damage to the bow, obviously).

Tsh77769

This thing looks to be incredibly versatile. Imagine this...

W.P. Bow/Archery PLUS W.P. Targeting PLUS W.P. Sharpshooting

W.P. Staff PLUS W.P. Blunt

VERY EXCITED!!!

Earlier I reasoned..."So, why could this thing not have the appearance and form of a staff with a grip in the center (if that would even be needed) and be used as a staff, including WP staff bonuses?"

For that matter, by that same logic it could be a spear. I would never throw the thing, but spears are not just for throwing. An advantage over the staff would be the blood loss damage.

tsh77769

As a G.M. a player could convince me to use W.P. Blunt or W.P. Staff with a bow when using a suitably durable bow for melee. Those W.P. bonuses wouldn't stack nor would they apply when firing arrows. Those are my calls as a G.M., but others may allow it.

The spirit bow from Spirit West is not eligible as it is magic.

I wasn't referring to the Spirit Bow in Spirit West (pg93 correct), I was referring to the NA-SW4 Bow on pg203 (not sure why pg215 was cited I'll correct the post) which is not a magic bow. It is constructed of MDC materials (this is Rifts) and fire arrows of similar construction. It does require a SN PS or a very high regular PS due to the string pull is said to be 1000lb. It is found right after the Laser Bow.

EDIT: corrected to quote the proper post.

To ShadowLogan:

My mistake and my apologies on the mix up on my end.

Glistam wrote:As a G.M. a player could convince me to use W.P. Blunt or W.P. Staff with a bow when using a suitably durable bow for melee. Those W.P. bonuses wouldn't stack nor would they apply when firing arrows. Those are my calls as a G.M., but others may allow it.

Of course W.P. Blunt or W.P. Staff bonuses would not apply when firing arrows.

AU (found my copy) does say the bow can be used as a blunt weapon doing 1D8 IIRC. That's not horrible. Plus, since teh string alone is teh sole source of propulsion you would not have to worry about damaging the limbs so it could be made pretty stout. Hence, my idea about the staff.

tsh77769

The Larhold Bow, Supernatural Ps Damage plus 1D6! In Heroes Unlimited that's quite a punch for any ranged weapon.

I'm generally against magic. However, IF you were going to use magic to enhance the aforementioned SC Penetrator III, check out Rifts Africa Pg 88 Dance of Blessing weapons.

+200' range, +1 to strike, double the SDC damage but MDC when going for MDC targets, and double taht dmg to witches.

Almost enough to make me a convert.

tsh77769

Check out the Nightbane weapon enchantment spells (Charm Weapon, Enchant Weapon, and I forget the 3rd). The Level 13 spell can be made permanent!

I suddenly feel compelled to check what the range is for Palladium siege weapons like an arbalest ...if my character is oversized and wants to use one as a crossbow(okay, yes, great shades of Discworld's Sergeant Detritus and his supersonic incendiary crossbow...)

Let's not forget, no matter what bow is used, make sure you put it in the hands of an Ancient Weapons Master. They can fire multiple arrows simultaneously. Also they get to add their strength bonus to each arrow's damage, therefore a min-maxed non-human Ancient Weapon Master using one of these power bows can make the damage insane.

For a bow I would say the Pinaak Longbow from Rifter 37 combined with the Rifter 0 enhancements is the best non-magic bow you will find.

But if you are willing to put all your skills into it I would suggest checking out the Archery Hand to Hand and Archery Proficiencies in Rifter 45, and Weapon Mastery and Weapon Specialization skills in Rifter 30.

Glistam wrote:It actually looks like the Heroes Unlimited game line has pretty much everything you need.

Check out the SC Penetrator III on page 181 of Aliens Unlimited Revised: 1,000 foot range, 4D6 base damage. That's good, but we're going to make it better. You don't want to just buy that Alien bow off of the Alien Department Store shelf and start using it. Instead just visit your friendly neighborhood Alien Ancient Weapon Master (Powers Unlimited 2, pages 90-93) and ask her very nicely to make you one. For a -60% penalty she can create a bow from scratch to increase the damage by 1d6 and the range by 100%. For an additional -35%, the Weapons Master can apply the "Penalties for Ancient Weapons" in the Hardware: Weapons power category of HU2 page 132, which allow the weapon forged from scratch to have superior balance and damage (+1 to strike, +2 to parry, and +4 to damage).

You may note we now have a -95% penalty to make a weapon with a skill which is only 84% +1% per additional level of experience. There is a +12% bonus when making the weapon from scratch, bringing the skill up to 96% + 1% per additional level. A slim chance for success at level 1, but with I.Q. bonus and levels the percentage can get slightly better. But it you have money and time, eventually the skill roll will be successful and you'll have your bow. But what will you shoot from it?

Kisentite Explosive Arrows, that's what.

Kisentite adds 1D6 to ancient weapon damage per the paragraph above the weapon chart on page 175 of Aliens Unlimited Revised (since the bow has its own arrow damage rating I'm ignoring the damage listing for a Kisentite arrow and instead using the guidelines noted). And page 134 of Heroes Unlimited 2nd Edition offers explosive arrowheads which can do up to 6D6 damage to a blast radius of only 2 feet (and a -10% to range, which is actually fairly significant for this weapon).

Bottom line, this is what you end up with: A custom SC Penetrator III that fires explosive tipped Kissentite arrows. Damage is 12D6+4 (with 6D6 of that damage being done to everything within a 2 foot blast radius), a range of 1,800 feet, +1 to strike, and +2 to parry.

If for some reason you're not trying to make something explode, the weapon without explosive tipped arrows only does 6D6+4 damage to a range of 2,000 feet.

This doesn't work for a number of reasons.
1) The bow in question is created not 'by hand' but via hyper advanced tech. Namely the string, which you aren't whipping up in your basement. The bow in question is also compound, which wouldn't fall under the category.

You're basically going 'Oh well you're looking for a nice sword? Have an ancient weapons master make you... A LIGHT SABER!!! YEAAAAH!! AND ADD THE BONUSES FOR IT BEING HAND MADE!"

2) Then you're trying to stack "Sharp" (kisentite") with "explosive" and that doesn't work either. explosive arrows explode on impact. You don't impale them with a razor sharp arrow head and just happen to have that arrow head some how holding all the explosive inside it and have it explode at the same time.

long story short you're stacking non stackable things and shattering rules meant for one thing to 'build' another and call it 'same same' to stack damage.

I explained my reasoning for all the decisions I made and I stand behind them.

And I point out that it doesn't work, unless you some how deputize an 'ancient' weapons master, being able to build the equivilent of a light saber to stand in for the 'sword' he's trained with because 'rules', that clearly don't give him the ability to some how do so.

Nor can you stack direct damage and explosive damage in the way you're trying to stipulate.

You're just going "ok the guy with the long flowing beard that's really good with a sword can now suddenly with out the technology to do so, build a light saber, because hey, a light saber is a 'sword', and wilks makes a 'laser sword' Sure that's another planet but 'aliens'.. so yeah he can do it, and... because he can perfectly balance a katana, I'll let him do so with the light saber to add in more damage.... and oh yeah. It's got an exploding blade too because you can create explosive knives via those other rules in the other books. So I'll stack all that.
Sword damage
Plus light saber damage because hey... it's in the other book
Plus extra damage because I 'hand made' the light saber. Sure i had a 2% chance of doing it just by the rules but my guy just tried 500 times till I actually managed to roll the 1 or 2 that I needed
oh and because there's exploding knives in the book. I'm making the light saber explosive as well "Radius of 2 feet" I'm not going to get hit.. and stack that on top!


Oh.. all that.. but except for a bow instead.

It's silly, and doesn't work that way.

There are several modern bows in the AU books (HU:AU & HU:AUr).
In the equipment section at the back of the books.
There are also kisentite, vibro, and energy arrow(-heads) in those respective lists at the beginning of the equipment section of the AU books.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:And I point out that it doesn't work, unless you some how deputize an 'ancient' weapons master, being able to build the equivilent of a light saber to stand in for the 'sword' he's trained with because 'rules', that clearly don't give him the ability to some how do so.

Nor can you stack direct damage and explosive damage in the way you're trying to stipulate.

You're just going "ok the guy with the long flowing beard that's really good with a sword can now suddenly with out the technology to do so, build a light saber, because hey, a light saber is a 'sword', and wilks makes a 'laser sword' Sure that's another planet but 'aliens'.. so yeah he can do it, and... because he can perfectly balance a katana, I'll let him do so with the light saber to add in more damage.... and oh yeah. It's got an exploding blade too because you can create explosive knives via those other rules in the other books. So I'll stack all that.
Sword damage
Plus light saber damage because hey... it's in the other book
Plus extra damage because I 'hand made' the light saber. Sure i had a 2% chance of doing it just by the rules but my guy just tried 500 times till I actually managed to roll the 1 or 2 that I needed
oh and because there's exploding knives in the book. I'm making the light saber explosive as well "Radius of 2 feet" I'm not going to get hit.. and stack that on top!


Oh.. all that.. but except for a bow instead.

It's silly, and doesn't work that way.

You've said a lot of things but I missed where you contributed your entry to the "Best (megaverse wise) NON-magic Bow (as in bow and arrow)..."

Glistam wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:And I point out that it doesn't work, unless you some how deputize an 'ancient' weapons master, being able to build the equivilent of a light saber to stand in for the 'sword' he's trained with because 'rules', that clearly don't give him the ability to some how do so.

Nor can you stack direct damage and explosive damage in the way you're trying to stipulate.

You're just going "ok the guy with the long flowing beard that's really good with a sword can now suddenly with out the technology to do so, build a light saber, because hey, a light saber is a 'sword', and wilks makes a 'laser sword' Sure that's another planet but 'aliens'.. so yeah he can do it, and... because he can perfectly balance a katana, I'll let him do so with the light saber to add in more damage.... and oh yeah. It's got an exploding blade too because you can create explosive knives via those other rules in the other books. So I'll stack all that.
Sword damage
Plus light saber damage because hey... it's in the other book
Plus extra damage because I 'hand made' the light saber. Sure i had a 2% chance of doing it just by the rules but my guy just tried 500 times till I actually managed to roll the 1 or 2 that I needed
oh and because there's exploding knives in the book. I'm making the light saber explosive as well "Radius of 2 feet" I'm not going to get hit.. and stack that on top!


Oh.. all that.. but except for a bow instead.

It's silly, and doesn't work that way.

You've said a lot of things but I missed where you contributed your entry to the "Best (megaverse wise) NON-magic Bow (as in bow and arrow)..."

I've contributed by pointing out that your route would be cheating in a number of ways and by the book doesn't work. The OP wanted stuff by the book, or else he'd just hand wave it and make it what ever he wants. By the book it doesn't remotely work in the fashion you've proposed. My contribution was pointing out that yours was false.