Munchkin/Rule Lawyer Challenge: Non-Magic Ranged Weapons

[Hotrod]

"Arrow!" said the bowman. "Black arrow! I have saved you to the last. You have never failed me and always I have recovered you. I had you from my father and he from of old. If ever you came from the forges of the true king under the Mountain, go now and speed well!"
― Bard, The Hobbit

Break out your books and summon your inner nerd! Prysus and I are happy to announce the second annual Munchkin/Rules Lawyer Challenge! To follow up last year's Munchkin/Rules Lawyer challenge, we thought it would be fun to try something along similar lines. Here's the challenge for this year:

Come up with the ultimate book-legal, non-magical, ranged weapon.

The competition is now open, and it will continue until an end date to be determined. Prysus or I will announce the end date of the competition at least 3 days in advance.

Rules
+You may use any canon portable ranged weapon or throwing weapon design found in the Palladium world (to include the published Palladium Fantasy books, Compendiums, and "Official" Rifter material). The weapon must be listed somewhere in canon as a weapon (a large rock doesn't count).
+If you're submitting a thrown weapon, that weapon must be primarily for throwing. A javelin, throwing knife or throwing axe is ok, but a battle axe or a longsword is not.
+Your submission must constitute a complete weapon system, including both the projectile and a launching/loading apparatus if needed.
+The entire weapon system must be reusable if the missile is recovered; anything expended upon a single use, such as poisons, explosives, or incendiaries are not allowed.
+You may use any materials that could plausibly be found in the Palladium Fantasy world (the material CAN be intrinsically magical, just not enchanted). Hades and Dyval are also acceptable sources for materials, as well as the realms of Dragons & Gods.
+You may use any canon craftsmen in the Palladium world (or create a book-legal character up to 15th level to make it).
+Your chosen craftsmen may use any smithing/carpentry/fletching/bowyering tools found in the Palladium world (the tools CAN be magical)
+Please provide references for every special feature in your submission (preferably book and page number).

Restrictions:
-No guns and no siege weapons allowed (The Hobbit book's black arrow would be allowed, but not the movie version).
-No complex mechanical loading mechanisms are allowed, such as windlasses, screws, or cranequins for crossbows, as these dramatically reduce the rate of fire, making them more like a siege weapon. A simple lever or belt hook is ok.
-No modern pulley-type compound bows (we're interpreting their inclusion in the W.P. section of P2E as a copy-paste inclusion error)
-No enchantments may be put into the weapon.
-No blessings may be laid upon the weapon.
-No runes, wards, or mystical symbols may be inscribed into the weapon, unless they are purely decorative.
-No giant-sized weapons.
-No Millennium tree or Great Oak weapons
-No effective range under 30 feet.
-No character-specific bonuses can be included, including skills, racial bonuses, or O.C.C. (Note: the longbow has some O.C.C. restrictions, but is usable by all, so it is permitted)

Entries may be judged for points by me and/or our champion rules lawyer from last year, Prysus. For the main competition, Prysus will be the chief judge, so he can overrule me, but I can't overrule him. If either of us submits an entry, the other will judge it.
Judging Criteria: The entry with the highest number of points will be the winner. Points will be awarded as follows:
+Each dice of damage gets as many points as an average roll, rounded down (1D4 is 2, 1D6 is 3, 1D10 is 5, and so forth). If a weapon is taken from one of the Compendium Books, standard damage value will be determined by the tables in the front of the Compendium of Weapons, Armour, & Castles. If you do not own the book, make your best guess and a judge with the book will adjust the damage accordingly.
+Each bonus to a specific move counts as a point, so +1 to damage = 1 point, while +1 to strike/parry = 2 points.
+Special combat moves that most ranged weapons can't do are worth 2 additional points per move.
+Unique beneficial properties (such as coated with silver to fight undead) are worth 1 point per property.
+Adding an additional attack or shot per melee is worth 3 points per additional attack.
+For a special feature to count, it must be usable by anybody. Any special requirements of strength, magic powers, giant size, psionics, etc, will not count.

Side-Contests: The following categories of points are awarded solely by me and have no effect whatsoever on the score of any entry. They are cumulative until the end of scored competition and can be assessed in any arbitrary amount that strikes me as appropriate:
+Rules Lawyer Points will be assessed for making well-reasoned arguments, justifying your position with canon references (extra points for obscure ones), applying appropriate penalties to your own submission (thus manipulating the judge), changing my or Prysus' mind on scoring or otherwise winning an appeal, pointing out errors in my scoring, and generally being nit-picky and persuasive.
+Munchkin Points will be assessed for silly shenanigans shamelessly (but futilely) pulled to crank up an entry's score.
+Awesome Points are assessed for entries that stand out as particularly creative, hilarious, or inspiring. As with last year, awesome entries will be included in the follow-on Thread of Glory.

Prizes:
+The grand prize winner will be awarded fame, bragging rights to their family for generations to come, and a piece of customized, possibly-animated, trophy artwork which they can put in their signature (this is how Vek got his shiny lens-flare-iffic sword last year).
+The winners of the munchkin, rules lawyer, and awesome side-contests will also get some fame and glory, along with customized trophy art they can print, frame, and hang over their mantlepieces.
+Depending on how this goes, I also may offer a small free map commission to a worthy contest participant, like revamping a canon dungeon map or making a quick original regional map.

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. While I was aware of this contest (and will be helping judge it), I did not start planning these submissions ahead of time. I didn't start going through books and thinking about this submission until after Hotrod officially posted the contest for all to see. So I think I'll help get this started, though I'll also be holding back. As a judge, I've opted to favor story over bonuses/points. I hope to keep things interesting and maybe inspire some ideas, but I don't expect to be in the final running with any of my submissions. With that said, my first entry ...

The Spear of Corruption (a.k.a. The Black Death)
A weapon regarded by many as one of the vilest weapon ever forged, rivaling that of even a Soul Drinker. This spear was forged from the blood of Styphon the Black by a master craftsman. This causes it to be lightweight and yet extremely deadly. However, it is not this quality which makes it truly infamous. As the black blood cooled and started to take solid form, a foreign element was added: The blood of a plague victim. Not hot enough to burn away the disease, the blood mixed and became a permanent part of the black metal!

Now, whenever the tip of the Spear of Corruption pierces an opponent, that victim must make a Save vs. Disease (lethal, 14 or higher) or become infected with the Plague. However, this isn’t just dangerous for the target, but all those around him! The blood of the victim now risks infecting anyone who comes in contact. Some say that Styphon whispered the idea into the ear of one of his followers, while others say only a human mind can devise something so truly depraved. Heroes who encounter this weapon and know of its horrible truth will stop at nothing to see its destruction. For this reason, those who possess the weapon often disguise it by painting its tip silver as well as other paint and/or decorations to help keep it disguised. As a result, many will not realize the terrible danger until it is far too late.

Weapon: Falarica (Spear) from CWA&C, page 74.
Natural Bonuses: +2 on initiative, +2 to strike thrown.
Dwarven Craftsmanship: +4 damage, +2 strike and +2 to parry* from PF2 main, page 271 (spears are considered “Blade Weapons”)
* I avoided “Hex” quality for the sake of story.
Special Features:
1: Black Metal from D&G, page 228.
1a: Invulnerable to all but magic.
1b: Lightweight.
1c: Double damage.
2: Ability to inflict Plague from Yin-Sloth Jungles, page 13.
3: Silver coated tip (as a disguise) which will hurt vampires, werebeasts, etc.
Damage: 6D6+8 (3D6 base damage, +4 from quality, both doubled from Black Metal).

Bonus weapon system: Spear Thrower (used to increase the force behind a spear) from CWA&C, page 44.
Features: +1D6 damage (7D6+8) and +50m to range.


Creator's Note: Technically a successful "Save vs. Disease" does not stop you from becoming infected. All that does is reduce the effects. However, due to the weapon's creation method, I opted to have it as not a guaranteed infection. If infected, a second Save vs. Disease can be rolled in an attempt to reduce the effect (as normal).

[kiralon]

Hex Crafted Grodnelite Javelin
7d6+6 +4 strike +4 parry(lol) +8 damage, damages everything in a 10ft radius,
so squeeze 8 people into a 10ft by 10ft area and thats
56d6+48 dam +4strike and another +8 to damage if you want to add the hex bonus also cant be dodged, and if you are under 12ft tall you have a %50 chance to lose initiative and an attack and be knocked to the ground or just lose initiative, also if armour isn't penetrated it does full damage to armour and 1/3 damage to person
+ a poisonous coating on the entire thing using the poison called last rites, so everyone in the area effect takes 2d6x10 + 12 damage + necrosis
lol my last entry works + poison

[Veknironth]

Well, not to give anyone any ideas, but are we able to augment both the projectile and the mechanism that projects it?

-Vek
"Grondolite is disqualified due to it being an explosive. Else, I'm making Rambo arrows out of the Fire Sand!"

[Prysus]

Hex Crafted Grodnelite Javelin

Greetings and Salutations. The rules state ...

Rules
[snip]
+The entire weapon system must be reusable if the missile is recovered; anything expended upon a single use, such as poisons, explosives, or incendiaries are not allowed.

So unless I'm missing something and the weapon explodes but doesn't destroy itself (it "must be reusable"), this item will be disqualified. The poison would also not count unless it could be reused without the need for reapplying it to the weapon. Thank you for your time and we look forward to any future submissions. Farewell and safe journeys.

[Prysus]

Well, not to give anyone any ideas, but are we able to augment both the projectile and the mechanism that projects it?

-Vek
"Grondolite is disqualified due to it being an explosive. Else, I'm making Rambo arrows out of the Fire Sand!"

Greetings and Salutations. I see no reason why both can't be augmented. I would have augmented the Spear Thrower in my submission, except I couldn't think of any canon way to do it (except needlessly putting special substances in it, which I opted against). In a future submission, I intend to augment both a bow and its arrow (considering someone doesn't do an equivalent or better version before then). However, keep in mind that the rules apply to both the projectile and the mechanism. So, for example, you can't use a Fire Sand arrow figuring the bow will keep the entry as a whole reusable. If one of the parts breaks the rules, then both parts will be disqualified (or the one remaining part will be factored alone, if it serves as a ranged weapon without assistance). So, for example, in my submission if the spear thrower was disqualified, the spear would remain as an entry because it could be used without the thrower. But with a bow and arrow, both pieces are required to make it an effective ranged weapon disqualifying both parts if one breaks the rules.

If Hotrod disagrees with something I said, he's welcome to chime in. We didn't discuss this aspect specifically, but it's just what made sense to me (to the point I just figured it was the rules without discussing it). Hope that helps. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Hotrod]

The Spear of Corruption (a.k.a. The Black Death)

While this is a wickedly cool weapon, I don't see any canon reference for black metal being some sort of persistent vector for infection. Therefore, I must fall back upon my knowledge of science. Yersinia Pestis, the bacteria which causes plague. I doubt it can survive being "as hot as a frying pan on a stove" which is how hot the liquid form of Styphon's blood is. Even if it could, the matrix of the black metal would encase all but the surface bacteria, which would be cleaned or washed off with everyday use. Now it might be possible to keep some kind of dead plague-bearing animal tissue within the spearhead and use it as an infecting vector that way, but that would require replenishing the tissue from time to time. As described, your plague vector spear would require magic that is not intrinsic to Black Metal, and therefore, you get no special points for it. That said, this spear as written would be a terrifying threat, and I could see it being a major plot driver for an adventure or even a short campaign.

That said, this submission is pretty robust as is.
+12 for combat move bonuses
+1 for Invulnerable to all but magic.
+1 for Lightweight.
+1 for the ability to hurt the undead
Your damage bonus is only +4. The damage bonus is from the smithing quality, not from the intrinsic qualities of the black metal. Smith quality bonuses are not doubled by materials. On the flipside, I believe the damage contribution from the spear thrower should be doubled, because using a spear thrower gives it an intrinsically higher damage base. Therefore, your damage is 8D6+4, which gives you +28 points for the weapon's damage.
The baseline effective range of a spear is 100 ft or 30 meters. Adding 50 meters to this makes it 80 meters, giving you an extra 150% range (50/30~1.67, rounded down to 1.5). Thus you have +3 points for range.

Your total is 12+1+1+1+28+3=46 points!

[Hotrod]

Well, not to give anyone any ideas, but are we able to augment both the projectile and the mechanism that projects it?

-Vek
"Grondolite is disqualified due to it being an explosive. Else, I'm making Rambo arrows out of the Fire Sand!"

Any and all components of the weapon system are fair game; to be considered for points, each must meat the rules and requirements, including the non-expendability rule Prysus mentioned.

[Prysus]

The Spear of Corruption (a.k.a. The Black Death)

While this is a wickedly cool weapon, I don't see any canon reference for black metal being some sort of persistent vector for infection.

Greetings and Salutations. There's no such reference, nor was I attempting to imply it.

Therefore, I must fall back upon my knowledge of science. Yersinia Pestis, the bacteria which causes plague. I doubt it can survive being "as hot as a frying pan on a stove" which is how hot the liquid form of Styphon's blood is.

Which is why I mentioned added as it cooled. I theorized there would have to come a point when it's no longer full heat and before it takes 100% solid form. The timing would be hard to get down, but I think it would be possible.

Even if it could, the matrix of the black metal would encase all but the surface bacteria, which would be cleaned or washed off with everyday use.

My logic upon this is that black metal is just blood that's currently in the form of metal. In the end though, it's still blood. Since the very metal IS blood, it could (in theory) then spread to the blood and carry through the black metal.

Note: The name is also based off of Styphon's breath weapon (which is poison). Though while I figure it made it fitting, this has no real bearing on whether or not the trick would work.

and therefore, you get no special points for it. That said, this spear as written would be a terrifying threat, and I could see it being a major plot driver for an adventure or even a short campaign.

And I'm fine with that ruling. While I make a case for how it might (in theory) work, I don't think the extra points will get me a win (once this thing gets really started). Also, I stated my motivation for any creations will be for story first. This just helped get things started. And now that I posted, I will get updates when someone else makes a post (which makes it easier for me to view as a judge). Farewell and safe journeys to all.

[kiralon]

Are arrows and quarrels allowed as they are one (to maybe a few if you have a kind gm) use items, and do the bonuses from both arrow and bow count or do you just use the highest bonus.

I just had to put the spear in after the rules gave me the poison idea. That thing is crazy dangerous and the poison ludicrous.

[Hotrod]

Are arrows and quarrels allowed as they are one (to maybe a few if you have a kind gm) use items, and do the bonuses from both arrow and bow count or do you just use the highest bonus.

I just had to put the spear in after the rules gave me the poison idea. That thing is crazy dangerous and the poison ludicrous.

Bonuses associated with arrows and quarrels stack with the bonuses associated with their launchers, unless the reference specifically states that the bonus is associated with a particular combination. While it's certainly possible for arrows and quarrels to be damaged or destroyed after a single use, that isn't necessarily the case. They can be recovered and re-used.

[Hotrod]

Sir Gerald's Triple Crossbow

Commissioned by the famous monster-hunting palladin and devout follower of the Church of Dragonwright, Sir Gerald Fitzheathcliff of Llorn, this unique crossbow and its special quarrels provide two key abilities. First, the ability to launch a devastating triple strike at the outset of a fight. Second, the ability to assess what vulnerabilities an unknown enemy might have.

The crossbow itself is built on the stock of a heavy arbalest, but instead of a single bow, it has three bows, strings, and slots for quarrels. A single squeeze of the trigger will discharge all cocked and loaded bows simultaneously. Reloading is done one bow at a time using a built-in lever like a standard goat's foot crossbow, so after an initial volley, Sir Gerald can either continue at his standard rate of fire, using a single shot, or can spend his next shot reloading. If he decides to continue volley fire, he can launch three-quarrel volleys every other shot, spending the subsequent shot reloading. Using the crossbow is a little awkward due to the extra bows and slots. Even with the excellent craftsmanship of the weapon, it is -1 to strike for a single quarrel, -2 to strike for a double volley, and -3 to strike for a full volley (roll once to strike per volley)

When used for sustained rapid fire (not volleys), this crossbow is functionally the same as a medium arbalest with a -1 to strike. An ordinary quarrel from this weapon does 2D8 with an effective range of 50 meters, but Sir Gerald only uses those if he's out of his colored quarrels. (Compendium of Weapons, Armor, and Castles, p47)

When out on a hunt, Sir Gerald keeps his crossbow fully loaded with one of each of the following quarrels. All have brightly-colored fletchings for easy identification.

Red Quarrel: Made of stone wood (more durable quarrel, half the range, but +1d6 damage) and tipped with black metal (double damage). Total damage is therefore 4D8+2D6. If this arrow causes damage, then Sir Gerald knows that any weapons will do and he will load all of his subsequent volleys with red quarrels, inflicting 12D8+6D6 with a single volley! (Northern Hinterlands, p59, and dragons and Gods, p228 for black metal).

White Quarrel: Also made of stone wood (more durable quarrel, half the range, but +1D6 damage) and tipped with a point made from the blood of Kym-Nark-Mar, doing 2D8+1D6 damage and bypassing all armor. If the red quarrel bounces off, but the white quarrel strikes home and does damage, then Sir Gerald knows his foe has a tough hide, so armor-defeating weapons are in order. Subsequent volleys of white quarrels will do 6D8+3D6 damage.

Yellow Quarrel: Also made of stone wood (more durable quarrel, half the range, but +1D6 damage) and tipped with a point made of silver. If the red and white quarrels bounce off the foe, but the yellow quarrels do damage, then Sir Gerald knows he is likely dealing with a wereperson or the undead. Yellow quarrels do the same damage as white quarrels.

But what if all three of Sir Gerald's volley of arrows bounce off the foe, you might ask? Well, then Sir Gerald switches to his most secret quarrel, the type that might get him excommunicated were the high priests of Dragonwright to learn of them:

A dragonbone quarrel. 3D6 damage, flies twice as far as normal, takes a P.S. of 24 to break, and inflicts full damage to dragons, supernatural creatures, and vampires. (Dragons and Gods, p231). This is Sir Gerald's "hurts everything" quarrel. If it is the only quarrel to do damage, then Sir Gerald knows that he's up against the supernatural and must use magic weapons only. A volley of Yellow quarrels does 9D6 damage.

At the rate Sir Gerald is going through these quarrels, he'll soon be known as Sir Gerald The Broke.

(Grading suggestion: this is a 3-in-1 franken-weapon, and we DQ'd non-canon franken-weapons last time. I suggest Prysus DQ this as well; I just wanted to explore the idea and see how much punch I could get out of it. Below is an entry that could actually get scored)

Sir Gerald's Backup Crossbow

Since his triple crossbow is an experimental design and somewhat finicky, Sir Gerald's squire carries a normal goats-foot medium arbalest as a backup, firing Red quarrels (see above) does 4D8+2D6 damage. Range is reduced by half to 25 meters effective.

[ShadowLogan]

A dragonbone quarrel. 3D6 damage, flies twice as far as normal, takes a P.S. of 24 to break, and inflicts full damage to dragons, supernatural creatures, and vampires. (Dragons and Gods, p231). This is Sir Gerald's "hurts everything" quarrel. If it is the only quarrel to do damage, then Sir Gerald knows that he's up against the supernatural and must use magic weapons only. A volley of Yellow quarrels does 9D6 damage.

I had a question on the dragon bone arrows from D&G because while the rules allow for natural magical materials (like the metals forged from dragon god blood), they do not allow for enchantments. Which Dragon bone weapons qualify as given "Dragon bone weapons are usually made and enchanted by alchemists or deities." (D&G pg230), which leads me to think they are all enchanted and by the rules here not available to be counted.

Otherwise a true munchkin would suggest that since Dragon bone quarrel that is obviously based on the Arrow and raise it to to the Dragon Bone Arrow WITH Angel Feathers for quadruple the range, always penetrates the natural AR of any SN/CoM and inflicts 20d4 (essentially 2d4x10) for a new bolt type.

[Prysus]

Sir Gerald's Triple Crossbow

[snip]
(Grading suggestion: this is a 3-in-1 franken-weapon, and we DQ'd non-canon franken-weapons last time. I suggest Prysus DQ this as well; I just wanted to explore the idea and see how much punch I could get out of it.

Greetings and Salutations. This is a pretty cool weapon, and I enjoyed the story. Though I'll agree it should be disqualified. The franken-weapon is one factor, but I'd also be inclined to say that this does not meet the requirement of:

The weapon must be listed somewhere in canon as a weapon (a large rock doesn't count).

While a medium arbalest is a canon weapon, one that fires three bolts is not. As such, I'd disqualify it (though I'd also be open to appeals with a well-reasoned argument). Actually, in hindsight, I guess I'd say that a "franken-weapon" is a sub-category of this rule. Also up for disqualification would be ...

A dragonbone quarrel. 3D6 damage, flies twice as far as normal, takes a P.S. of 24 to break, and inflicts full damage to dragons, supernatural creatures, and vampires. (Dragons and Gods, p231). This is Sir Gerald's "hurts everything" quarrel. If it is the only quarrel to do damage, then Sir Gerald knows that he's up against the supernatural and must use magic weapons only. A volley of Yellow quarrels does 9D6 damage.

I'm guessing this is based off the stats for a Dragon Bone Arrow. While I wouldn't quibble over the difference between an arrow and your quarrel, this would be disqualified because they require enchantment. Dragons & Gods, page 230:

Dragon Bone Weapons
Dragon bone weapons are usually made and enchanted by alchemist or deities.

While it says "usually," within the context I'd have to say that the "usually" applies to who makes them, while being "enchanted" is a requirement. This contest does not allow enchanted weapons. Note: I had looked at those myself, but I had to opt against it for the above reasoning.

Sir Gerald's Backup Crossbow

Since his triple crossbow is an experimental design and somewhat finicky, Sir Gerald's squire carries a normal goats-foot medium arbalest as a backup, firing Red quarrels (see above) does 4D8+2D6 damage. Range is reduced by half to 25 meters effective.

Red Quarrel: Made of stone wood (more durable quarrel, half the range, but +1d6 damage) and tipped with black metal (double damage). Total damage is therefore 4D8+2D6. [snip] (Northern Hinterlands, p59, and dragons and Gods, p228 for black metal).

Okay, this one looks good. So ...

+1 for Double S.D.C. of the shaft
+1 for the lightweight arrowhead (Black Metal).
+1 for the nigh invulnerable arrowhead (Black Metal).*
+22 damage bonus

1+1+1+22=25 points.**

* Due to the fact that Black Metal and the shaft are both just increased durability, I'm unsure if I should just make them one bonus instead of two separate. This could be ripe for abuse as it would encourage different parts with similar special features to be used for added points without actual benefit. But, for the time being, I'm counting them separately.

** Also note that a part of me wants to provide penalties to things like decreased range (and/or strike penalties). However, I do not believe any system for this has ever been discussed or put into place for negatives, so at this time I'm not going to factor anything like that in.

That's all for now. Farewell and safe journeys to all.[/justify]

[Prysus]

I had a question on the dragon bone arrows from D&G because while the rules allow for natural magical materials (like the metals forged from dragon god blood), they do not allow for enchantments. Which Dragon bone weapons qualify as given "Dragon bone weapons are usually made and enchanted by alchemists or deities." (D&G pg230), which leads me to think they are all enchanted and by the rules here not available to be counted.

Otherwise a true munchkin would suggest that since Dragon bone quarrel that is obviously based on the Arrow and raise it to to the Dragon Bone Arrow WITH Angel Feathers for quadruple the range, always penetrates the natural AR of any SN/CoM and inflicts 20d4 (essentially 2d4x10) for a new bolt type.

Greetings and Salutations. And you're absolutely correct. Believe me, the munchkin in me had been looking at that as well. For note though, if I were going to rule for that weapon (if it weren't enchanted) ...

The damage would still be for the 3D6 damage (9 points). The 2D4x10 damage would be a Special Feature against supernatural and creatures of magic. As such, it would only be worth +1 point. Additional feature (such as increased range and piercing A.R.) would also be worth bonus points, but I wanted to address the damage situation specifically. Note: As I reread it for this response, I realized that the wording is unclear if it's 2D4x10 standard to everyone. However, in context, I think it's intended only against the Supernatural and Creatures of Magic (see Demon and Dragon Slayers above).

The reasons I state how I would rule is to establish the fact if any similar issues arise in the future that aren't disqualified. If Hotrod disagrees with that version of the ruling, we can discuss it further. However, I think the Special Feature damage is just a special feature and wouldn't count as part of the damage bonus. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[kiralon]

Rules Lawyering 101
Arbalests are classed as Siege Weapons in palladium

[Prysus]

Rules Lawyering 101
Arbalests are classed as Siege Weapons in palladium

Greetings and Salutations. That depends on which book you're using. In Adventures on the High Seas Second Edition and Library of Bletherad it is classified as a Siege Weapon, yes. If stats from either of the two books are used, it would definitely be disqualified. However, in this particular case, the stats are taken from the Compendium of Weapons, Armour, & Castle where it's specifically categorized as a Crossbow and in a different section category from Siege Weapons. The Compendium of Weapons, Armour, & Castles is a Palladium product (despite your stance), and is allowed within the contest rules. I considered that aspect myself, but being a good rules lawyer means going over all the rules and not just cherry picking which ones to follow.

As such, the Arbalest listed is allowed, per the rules of both Palladium and this contest. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[kiralon]

Just curious, where in the compendium does it say its not a siege weapon. Not mentioning it shouldn't override the main book that deals with siege weapons that says it is, and if I remember correctly 2nd ed High seas came out after the compendium and should still take precedence as it states specific rules dealing with siege weapons, and the compendium books were just generics usable in all the systems.

(I do know in the real world the names are interchangeable because its just the French word for crossbow or some such, but the distinction was specifically made in the books, if someone wanted to use an arbalest they had to take wp siege)

[Prysus]

Just curious, where in the compendium does it say its not a siege weapon. Not mentioning it shouldn't override the main book that deals with siege weapons that says it is, and if I remember correctly 2nd ed High seas came out after the compendium and should still take precedence as it states specific rules dealing with siege weapons, and the compendium books were just generics usable in all the systems.

Greetings and Salutations. This is the evidence available so far ...

1. CWAC, page 45: "The most popular crossbows for use from horseback were the goat's foot types. Heavy arbalests with a cranequin were also used when mounted." This tells us that they're crossbows. They're also used from horseback, and during an actual castle siege you're far less likely to be firing from horseback (at least as near as I can figure).

2. CWAC, page 47: "Cross Bows" title and we have a list of crossbows, most of which have the title of "arbalest" in them. One of them is categorized as a "siege arbalest" which helps differentiate it.

3. CWAC, page 211: "Siege Weapons" section discussing siege weapons, of which the Arbalest is not among them. Page 213 even has a list of names, of which an Arbalest is not among them. Note: The reason they're NOT listed in the Siege Weapons is because they ARE listed in the Crossbow section.

4. Library of Bletherad, page 157: "Since these things are so powerful, they are cocked by a crank, winch, or other hand-held mechanism. Sometimes these cocking devices are built into the arbalest, as is the case with cranks and winches. Otherwise, cranking devices such as cocking hooks are separate tools that the operator must keep around for reloading." The book gives us specific methods of cocking the device. In the Arbalest used in this submission, all that's used is a simple lever. If you look on page 46 of CWAC, you can see images of the difference. The Goat's Foot lever is rather simple. Next to the picture you'll see the words "Siege Arbalest (or Military Crossbow)," but due to the other information provided (in particular when compared with the information on page 47) this is in reference to the picture a little lower showing a man cranking his crossbow with the Windlass Pulley System. When you start to compare the stats, the "Heavy" Arbalest from Library is the Siege Arbalest with Windlass from CWAC (or close to), the "Medium" Arbalest from Library is the Heavy Arbalest with Windlass from CWAC (or close to, because while the range and damage match up the weight is off), and the "Light" Arbalest from Library doesn't mesh up well at all, though the stats are nearly identical to the crossbow stats (the only difference is the range).

5: Library of Bletherad, page 157: "Arbalests are very heavy crossbows with greater range and hitting power than conventional crossbows. Although a personal weapon, they classify as siege engines because their weight and slow reloading time only makes them practical for siege warfare, when firing fast and furious is not quite so important." Here, they tell us that Arbalests are crossbows, just that they're too heavy and slow. The weight of the Arbalest in the submission is equivalent to the crossbows from the PF2 main book, so NOT as heavy as the Arbalests that the Library is talking about (except maybe the "Light" Arbalest, which again is equivalent of crossbows in general). Also, Library then goes on to say: "Even though they resemble crossbows, they still require the W.P. Siege Weapons skill to use." Now they're telling us these aren't actually crossbows, and they just resemble them. Which, again, makes them different than the one in question from CWAC.

5. The rules of this contest: "-No complex mechanical loading mechanisms are allowed, such as windlasses, screws, or cranequins for crossbows, as these dramatically reduce the rate of fire, making them more like a siege weapon. A simple lever or belt hook is ok." The contest rules allow for crossbows with simple levers, which is the case with the Goat's Foot lever in the submission.

6. AotHS: I'm not going to get into details of this Arbalest version, as it's stats are also different with a range below that of even a normal crossbow (and far below any of the Arbalests listed in Library or CWAC).

While CWAC doesn't state crossbows are NOT Siege Weapons, CWAC also doesn't state that swords are not Siege Weapons and that axes are not Siege Weapons. What CWAC does do is tell us that Arbalests are Crossbows and has a separate section for Siege Weapons (of which Arbalests are not included). Crossbows are a separate category from Siege Weapons. Library of Bletherad tells us the Arbalests they're discussing only resemble crossbows (but apparently are not) and are heavy. Library also tells us that Arbalests are only practical during a siege, but the arbalest in CWAC is "popular" to use on horseback. Therefore, an arbalest that's a crossbow, light, and used from horseback is not the same as the arbalest discussed in the Library.

As for which came first, I genuinely don't care. At no point does this contest say that something from an older book can't be used, especially when that older book is specifically allowed. The information from the CWAC dates back to before PF1. So while I find it cute you want to rule out any book you don't personally like, that's not within the contest rules. I'm not going to disqualify entire books because you personally decide they shouldn't count. AotHS, Library, and CWAC all are written by three different people, all with three different versions of Arbalests. So if you use the (drastically inferior) version in Adventures, it's a Siege Weapon. If you use the Arbalests in Library, they're Siege Weapons. if you use the Arbalests in CWAC, they're Crossbows (because that's what they're categorized as).

Out of the crossbows listed in CWAC, 9 of the 13 have the word "Arbalest" in them (including some far inferior to the standard crossbow in PF2). I'm not ready to exclude nearly 70% of all crossbows and change the contest rules because you don't like them. And I've seriously wasted way too much time even having to show a Crossbow and Siege Weapon are not necessarily the same thing. I have better things to do. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[kiralon]

Sorry, didn't mean to get big quotes in return, or to waste so much of your time. A quickie page number would have been plenty.

I'm only going by what the books say. I didn't make the mistake the authors did when the main books separated arbalest from crossbow, but the generic books didn't.

I actually had a player who used a triple arbalest and used wp xbow to fire it, but in my rules lawyer guise I would still have to say arbalests are counted as siege weapons because the book says so. Just because it doesn't make sense and removes %70 of the weapons isn't a good reason to ignore what the book says (otherwise people will wonder what other things will be changed on the fly as the books certainly have plenty of contradictions)
Just changing the rules to say no siege weapons with the exception of arbalests out of TCoWaCs is the way to go, because in reality they are just crossbows, but in palladium terms an Arbalest is a siege weapon. Trying to change the Palladium meaning of Arbalest just causes arguments.

But you are right, I never really liked TCoWaCs because it wasn't part of the PFRPG group of books, Even its damage and bonuses format was different.

[Prysus]

I'm only going by what the books say. I didn't make the mistake the authors did when the main books separated arbalest from crossbow, but the generic books didn't.

Greetings and Salutations. The main book doesn't separate it though. The main book does NOT categorize an arbalest as a siege weapon. Two of the world books do. One of the companion books (which we are using for this contest) does NOT.

Just because it doesn't make sense and removes %70 of the weapons isn't a good reason to ignore what the book says (otherwise people will wonder what other things will be changed on the fly as the books certainly have plenty of contradictions)

Except I'm not ignoring the rule for that reason. You, yourself, admit that the term arbalest is often used interchangeably with the word crossbow. Two books give specific stats for Arbalests that are Siege Weapons. Those stats are not the same. Names do not also necessarily state the category. Example, Beaked Axe uses Pole Arm, NOT the axe, despite the word "axe" in the name.

Palladium says the Siege Weapon arbalests "resemble" crossbows (therefore they are not crossbows). They give a method of them working. They give the reason for their restrictions. Specific details are given. If something works DIFFERENTLY, has DIFFERENT restrictions, DIFFERENT stats, and happens to be called an arbalest that does not inherently make it a siege weapon anymore than a beaked axe needs to use the W.P. Battle Axe. Despite the name, it still falls under a different category. In a Palladium product, the arbalest in question is listed as a crossbow. You're insistence on IGNORING Palladium products because we have to adhere to Palladium products is contradictory.

I'm not saying we should ignore it just because it would negate 70% of all crossbows. I'm saying they're different weapons, that are written using some of the same words.

Just changing the rules to say no siege weapons with the exception of arbalests out of TCoWaCs is the way to go, because in reality they are just crossbows, but in palladium terms an Arbalest is a siege weapon. Trying to change the Palladium meaning of Arbalest just causes arguments.

Don't need to change the meaning. I'm saying they're different weapons that fit into different categories, that happen to use the same word.

But you are right, I never really liked TCoWaCs because it wasn't part of the PFRPG group of books, Even its damage and bonuses format was different.

I on the other hand love them, because they provide a nice variety over the rather limited selection of the PFRPG main book. If PF2 main book calls something a pole arm, and CWAC calls it a spear, the question becomes which stats are you using? If you're using the stats from the PF2 main book then it's a pole arm. If you're using the DIFFERENT stats from CWAC, then it would be a spear. Why? Because they're actually different stats and can be applied differently. As a result, you'd have to treat them as separate weapons. With CWAC, Arbalests are listed in the Crossbow section and not in the Siege Weapons section. That's a fact, despite your personal feelings. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[kiralon]

One of the companion books (which we are using for this contest) does NOT.
Im saying the compendiums aren't from the palladium fantasy range of books, not that they aren't from palladium books.


Except I'm not ignoring the rule for that reason. You, yourself, admit that the term arbalest is often used interchangeably with the word crossbow. Two books give specific stats for Arbalests that are Siege Weapons. Those stats are not the same. Names do not also necessarily state the category. Example, Beaked Axe uses Pole Arm, NOT the axe, despite the word "axe" in the name.
I know what you mean but the beaked axe is classed as a pole arm in the main book so it takes precedence and would be used as a polearm. If it was say a purplepeopleeater axe that looked the same but was in the axe category it would likely use wp axe, unless the pfrpg book said it was a chain weapon, then it would use wp chain (briefly before being house ruled).
The problem here is the weapon is similar, and is in the pfrpg books as well as the Compendium, and the CWACS list includes siege weapons as a crossbow, and has crossbows that do more damage then a heavy crossbow, but not as much damage as a pfrpg arbalest and doesn't say they use a complicated mechanism like the nayim or the thami. As they do over heavy crossbow damage they should be classed as light siege weapons, but CWAC just calls em a crossbow.

Palladium says the Siege Weapon arbalests "resemble" crossbows (therefore they are not crossbows). They give a method of them working. They give the reason for their restrictions. Specific details are given. If something works DIFFERENTLY, has DIFFERENT restrictions, DIFFERENT stats, and happens to be called an arbalest that does not inherently make it a siege weapon anymore than a beaked axe needs to use the W.P. Battle Axe. Despite the name, it still falls under a different category. In a Palladium product, the arbalest in question is listed as a crossbow. You're insistence on IGNORING Palladium products because we have to adhere to Palladium products is contradictory.

Palladium products (e.g. rifts, compendiums) are different to palladium fantasy
If something uses a name that is the same, and is similar enough ill put it in the same bracket unless the book says something different. A beaked axe works as a pole arm because its in the pole arm category in the book. I know what you are saying and that's the problem with the compendium books, they don't follow the palladium fantasy way of naming things, but it still best to go by whats written rather than what the author intended as people can think different things about what they think the author meant (not in this case mind you, the arbalest naming is either lack of research or lack of understanding from the authors).


Don't need to change the meaning. I'm saying they're different weapons that fit into different categories, that happen to use the same word.
Which is changing the Palladium fantasy meaning of the word. I trust your research on the books. The only thing that has a different meaning is the part from the books that aren't part of palladium fantasy, thus changing the meaning.

I on the other hand love them, because they provide a nice variety over the rather limited selection of the PFRPG main book. If PF2 main book calls something a pole arm, and CWAC calls it a spear, the question becomes which stats are you using?
This is probably our main difference. If you used a weapon that was listed as a spear in palladium and a pole arm in cwac you would be using wp spear in my games, as the books in the fantasy series take precedence for me and others are just optional addons that do things like giving different stats to weapons, and as for being in the Crossbow sections what CWAC calls the siege arbalest is still in the crossbow section despite being a siege weapon for the reasons that the pfrpg books explain but doesn't call them siege weapons.

Ill leave this alone now, as I can see we won't see eye to eye on this one.

[Prysus]

Palladium products (e.g. rifts, compendiums) are different to palladium fantasy

Greetings and Salutations. I agree with you. Compendium of Weapons, Armour, & Castles is NOT a PFRPG book. While compatible or a companion book, it's not a PFRPG product. This started off with you saying "Arbalests are classed as Siege Weapons in palladium" which states "Palladium" (as an entire entity, not just one game line). As such, while what you said is true (PFRPG does rule it a Siege Weapon), it's also false because the Compendium rules it a crossbow. If you had stated "in palladium fantasy" parts of this conversation might've gone differently.

Since this contest is including The Compendium of Weapons, Armour, & Castles, I believe it's important to factor it's ruling in as well. I can understand your thoughts on the matter, and I can't say their necessarily wrong. But since we're using the term "rule lawyer" let's think about this like the law. A law may say one thing. However, there's often precedence for it to be used in a different way. In this case, I think the Compendium creates a precedence to work around the PFRPG ruling. While I could rule the PFRPG way, it's the more prohibitive ruling. As such, I prefer to rule in favor of the precedence set by the Compendium. This contest, to me, is often about thinking outside the box and (for the rules lawyer) finding that obscure rule that lets you get around the other rules. If I rule in favor of the most restrictive ways possible, that defeats the point of the contest and starts to ruin the fun. Truth be told, if someone found a PF1 ruling, I'd be willing to consider it.

And while we may not agree eye to eye, my hope (at this point) is to at least understand one another. For this contest, I want to try and give each rule equal weight, as long as it's from a book allowed by the rules of this contest. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[kiralon]

Palladium products (e.g. rifts, compendiums) are different to palladium fantasy

Greetings and Salutations. I agree with you. Compendium of Weapons, Armour, & Castles is NOT a PFRPG book. While compatible or a companion book, it's not a PFRPG product. This started off with you saying "Arbalests are classed as Siege Weapons in palladium" which states "Palladium" (as an entire entity, not just one game line). As such, while what you said is true (PFRPG does rule it a Siege Weapon), it's also false because the Compendium rules it a crossbow. If you had stated "in palladium fantasy" parts of this conversation might've gone differently.

Since this contest is including The Compendium of Weapons, Armour, & Castles, I believe it's important to factor it's ruling in as well. I can understand your thoughts on the matter, and I can't say their necessarily wrong. But since we're using the term "rule lawyer" let's think about this like the law. A law may say one thing. However, there's often precedence for it to be used in a different way. In this case, I think the Compendium creates a precedence to work around the PFRPG ruling. While I could rule the PFRPG way, it's the more prohibitive ruling. As such, I prefer to rule in favor of the precedence set by the Compendium. This contest, to me, is often about thinking outside the box and (for the rules lawyer) finding that obscure rule that lets you get around the other rules. If I rule in favor of the most restrictive ways possible, that defeats the point of the contest and starts to ruin the fun. Truth be told, if someone found a PF1 ruling, I'd be willing to consider it.

And while we may not agree eye to eye, my hope (at this point) is to at least understand one another. For this contest, I want to try and give each rule equal weight, as long as it's from a book allowed by the rules of this contest. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

LOL, I do understand it but methinks there is a slight difference in our rules lawyers (they are a tiny step up from munchkins)
Here a rules lawyer is that irritating fellow who sits next to the dm so he can see over the screen and who says "The book specifically states . . ." and goes on and on and on and on and on about it, and then goes and finds other rules in the books to support it "Because the book says so".
not the quiet clever guy who comes up with an odd twist that torpedoes your adventure.

and the only time my players used the compendiums was when they were munckinning (is that a word ?)up their weapons because you could find weapons that did more damage than standard palladium 1st ed (and sometimes second ed) which, other then the difference in the way stats are figured out, is the reason I don't like them and tend to discount them totally.

Thanks for the conversation . I always enjoy a good debate.

[Hotrod]

I had a question on the dragon bone arrows from D&G because while the rules allow for natural magical materials (like the metals forged from dragon god blood), they do not allow for enchantments. Which Dragon bone weapons qualify as given "Dragon bone weapons are usually made and enchanted by alchemists or deities." (D&G pg230), which leads me to think they are all enchanted and by the rules here not available to be counted.

I chose the Dragon Bone Arrow deliberately in the hope of stimulating this discussion. The section suggests that most dragon bone weapons are made by alchemists or deities and are enchanted, but it does not specify all. If any are not so enchanted, then I figured that they would have to be simple dragon bone javelins and arrows, which are notably lacking the powers of the rest of the section.

Calling this into question is totally legit, though. +1 rules lawyer point (particularly because Prysus agreed).

(I do know in the real world the names are interchangeable because its just the French word for crossbow or some such, but the distinction was specifically made in the books, if someone wanted to use an arbalest they had to take wp siege)

Nice nit-picking and pointing out a canon conflict. +1 rules lawyer point, even though Prysus (and I) disagree. Really good discussion/debate, thanks for that.

No rules lawyer points for Prysus, though, since he's a judge. Maybe I'll draw him a fancy gavel or something.

[Veknironth]

Well, here's another question. Can all spears be considered ranged weapons?

-Vek
"There are some that are damn near polearm size."

[Prysus]

Well, here's another question. Can all spears be considered ranged weapons?

-Vek
"There are some that are damn near polearm size."

Greetings and Salutations. I'm going to have to say "no" for the time being. Tridents, Beaked Axes*, Lances, and Bayonets are all on the Spear list and, as far as I'm aware, none of them are intended as ranged weapons. I'm not sure the best criteria to use for this, but we'll have to address them as we go. For the Falarica, I did do an internet search before using it. Its Wikipedia entry, for instance, specifically mentioned it being used with a Spear Thrower (and a couple other notes suggesting ranged usage). Farewell and safe journeys for now.


* Yes, the Beaked Axe is on both the Pole Arm and the Spear list of the PF2 main book, but not on the Axe list. Go figure.

[ShadowLogan]

A couple of quick questions:
1. Are you guys going to define the capabilities of White Metal (Kormath's blood metal, D&G p226) for the purposes here so that everyone is on the same page and doesn't invoke whatever values they want?
2. Are the rules for Superior Weapons concerning spears applicable to arrows/bolts? (PF2E pg271-2) Or is there a place(s) to find similar manufacture rules? (I've seen a few NPC shops that produce bow/arrows with bonuses and not be magical). The munchkin in me says yes (a spear is just a shrunken arrow/bolt), the rules lawyer in me isn't sure (they count as bladed weapon, and scale doesn't seem to mater given sword/knife, but arrow/bolts aren't specifically identified as applicable).

Moving on to first pair of submissions. One is more about coolness factor, the other is more practical and depending on answers to questions might be revised...

Bands of Sling
Base Weapon: Sling Shot (pg269 PF2E)
Construction Notes: The Bands of Sling was created as an assassin weapon that could be hidden in plain sight. If the weapon has one drawback is that it has to be assembled and disassembled to hide it. In its disassembled state the user will be wearing two rings (index and pinkie) and (what we would think of as) a medical alert bracelet (though some altered it into a necklace). The rings are always metal bands, which might be simple affairs with some minor engraving or more complex with inlaid jewels (this for function primarily), they also have a single "hook" each. The Bracelet is is composed of crossbow string and a leather cradle (which may or may not be further disguised). When the assassin is in position, they will take the bracelet off and string onto the hooks as one would on a crossbow. Then all they need to do is draw it back with a bullet in the cradle.
Damage: 1d6 for standard sling stones, though specialized stones might be available (bullets of a given material or that contain poison for added effectiveness) or need to be improvised.
Bonuses:
Feature Notes:
1. Assembly and disassembly require WP: Bow (this might be bending Scoring Criteria #6 and Restrictions #10) to be effective (without it assembly/disassembly I would think would take longer and might not be possible at all since they have to "string" the weapon), though nothing precludes someone from using a pre-assembled weapon
2. The hooks can be used in melee as a brass knuckle type weapon, though might need repairs after such use as the hooks could be damaged
3. Range is as Slingshot
4. The weapon should give a situational bonus on initiative for the first round of combat after the surprise action
5. If this wasn't about being a munchkin I'd suggest a strike penalty for being an awkward design

Black Swarm CrossBow
Construction Notes: Stock Chu-Ko-Nu Repeating Crossbow (CoWAC pg49) manufactured out of Hygorath Bone firing poisoned Black Metal bolts with multi-headed blade
Damage: 1d6 for a standard bolt and x2 for Black Metal + Poison damage** + Multi-Blade Head (+4damage*) = 2d6+4 PLUS Poison Damage
Bonuses***: +1 APM for customization, +1 Strike for customization, +1 strike from arrows, +100ft range (~30m)
Features:
1. ROF = 12 per melee (RAW), which means in 15seconds you can do (24d6+48 damage in 15second melee assuming each round hits BEFORE poison is considered) and there doesn't appear to be a level requirement to fire that fast (unlike other bow/crossbow weapons).
2. poison tipped arrows (while the poison may be used up, the bolt may still be usable)
3. Magazine holds 12 bolts
4. Range: Effective Range is 60meters (~195ft) with a maximum range of 170meters (~550ft)
5. Customization is for specific individual, -1 APM and -1 strike if not that individual (so unit retains the usable by anyone requirement, though nothing requires them to operate it at the same proficiency).
6. Hygorath Bone makes it x2 as strong (SDC I'm assuming, text isn't clear, though if it can also apply to damage in general...) and just as light as wood. Can be found in Land of the Damned#2 pg83
*Multi-Bladed Head is listed as 2d6+4 on pg127 of Western Empire for a Longbow which is 2d6 normally, hence the +4
**Poisons selected would be based on the target for maximum effectiveness when possible, duration could also be a factor here (how is poison damage for multi-round is counted for points?). Poisons on pg264-5 of PF2E main book, most damaging would be Dragon's Breath (6d6) if only considering initial contact damage, duration damage goes to (Acid cleanser/metal dissolver with 3d6*4melee rounds * 3minutes = 36d6), the most cost effective for initial contact is Scorpion's blood, but Acid Cleanser for duration. CoCW&A is clear that it typically uses poisoned rounds
**two Elven NPC shops produce bow/arrow weapons with these bonuses. Western Empire pg97 (Bow: APM, Strike, Range) and Old Ones pg 62 (arrow: strike, also alludes to bows with strike & damage bonuses but no examples)

[Hotrod]

Well, here's another question. Can all spears be considered ranged weapons?

-Vek
"There are some that are damn near polearm size."

Greetings and Salutations. I'm going to have to say "no" for the time being. Tridents, Beaked Axes*, Lances, and Bayonets are all on the Spear list and, as far as I'm aware, none of them are intended as ranged weapons. I'm not sure the best criteria to use for this, but we'll have to address them as we go. For the Falarica, I did do an internet search before using it. Its Wikipedia entry, for instance, specifically mentioned it being used with a Spear Thrower (and a couple other notes suggesting ranged usage). Farewell and safe journeys for now.


* Yes, the Beaked Axe is on both the Pole Arm and the Spear list of the PF2 main book, but not on the Axe list. Go figure.

Not that it matters, since Prysus is our chief judge, but I agree. If a spear is purpose-built for throwing, then it is ok. The javelin and the pilum are ok. Spears like the ones used by the Rohirrim in the Lord of the Rings movies are iffy, and I'd be inclined to say no, since throwing them seems more of an alternate use than a primary one.

[kiralon]

The beaked axe in the Spear list is a lot smaller than the one in the polearm list, and its a copy paste error from first ed, they even updated the damage lol.

[Prysus]

A couple of quick questions:

Greetings and Salutations. I'm going to try and answer your questions really quick. Then I hope to get to your entry a little later tonight.

1. Are you guys going to define the capabilities of White Metal (Kormath's blood metal, D&G p226) for the purposes here so that everyone is on the same page and doesn't invoke whatever values they want?

I have no intention of defining White Metal for this contest, nor will I accept anyone else making up whatever they want. This contest must still fall within canon of the sources available. My making something up wouldn't be canon, and someone else making something else up wouldn't be canon. I believe last contest White Metal was awarded a +1 bonus point for unknown Special Features. That is all. I'm inclined to keep that ruling for this contest.

If Hotrod would like to offer a different opinion on the matter, I will be open to discussion with the matter with him. But his opinion on the matter is the only one I'll consider, unless someone else can bring in some canon evidence.

2. Are the rules for Superior Weapons concerning spears applicable to arrows/bolts? (PF2E pg271-2) Or is there a place(s) to find similar manufacture rules? (I've seen a few NPC shops that produce bow/arrows with bonuses and not be magical). The munchkin in me says yes (a spear is just a shrunken arrow/bolt), the rules lawyer in me isn't sure (they count as bladed weapon, and scale doesn't seem to mater given sword/knife, but arrow/bolts aren't specifically identified as applicable).

I'm inclined to say they are NOT bladed weapons. This ruling is based upon two facts I'm aware of:

1: The list for Bladed items has a list, and arrows/bolts are not on them. The list is actually rather specific, and doesn't end in an "etc." like the Blunt category. As such, I'm inclined to believe that's the full extent of that list.

2: As you say, there are specific shops and NPC that produce superior bows and arrows, usually with notes (at least that I can recall) specifying what bonuses they can provide. This suggests they're different. This, to me, suggests they use different rules and NOT the same as Bladed. So upgrading your bows and arrows will require using one of these NPC or shops. Finding them is up to you (or another entry, and you can try to copy theirs).

I'm open to discussion if anyone has other evidence to support or refute this stance. Until then, farewell and safe journeys to all.

[kiralon]

I'm open to discussion if anyone has other evidence to support or refute this stance. Until then, farewell and safe journeys to all

The way it was copy pasted from 1st ed to second ed (only weapon damages change, they didn't check for errors as the beaked axe is evidence of that) and when 1st ed came out there weren't other books to get bonuses for bows and arrows, and finding the shop entry for those specific bonuses is tedious in the books tells me bows and arrows were completely forgotten about, even in second ed.

In my mind kevin must have played a human sword wielding loony, as that seems to be what the game is based around, with everything else thrown willy nilly on top.

[Prysus]

Bands of Sling
Base Weapon: Sling Shot (pg269 PF2E)
Construction Notes: The Bands of Sling was created as an assassin weapon that could be hidden in plain sight. If the weapon has one drawback is that it has to be assembled and disassembled to hide it. In its disassembled state the user will be wearing two rings (index and pinkie) and (what we would think of as) a medical alert bracelet (though some altered it into a necklace). The rings are always metal bands, which might be simple affairs with some minor engraving or more complex with inlaid jewels (this for function primarily), they also have a single "hook" each. The Bracelet is is composed of crossbow string and a leather cradle (which may or may not be further disguised). When the assassin is in position, they will take the bracelet off and string onto the hooks as one would on a crossbow. Then all they need to do is draw it back with a bullet in the cradle.
Damage: 1d6 for standard sling stones, though specialized stones might be available (bullets of a given material or that contain poison for added effectiveness) or need to be improvised.
Bonuses:
Feature Notes:
1. Assembly and disassembly require WP: Bow (this might be bending Scoring Criteria #6 and Restrictions #10) to be effective (without it assembly/disassembly I would think would take longer and might not be possible at all since they have to "string" the weapon), though nothing precludes someone from using a pre-assembled weapon
2. The hooks can be used in melee as a brass knuckle type weapon, though might need repairs after such use as the hooks could be damaged
3. Range is as Slingshot
4. The weapon should give a situational bonus on initiative for the first round of combat after the surprise action
5. If this wasn't about being a munchkin I'd suggest a strike penalty for being an awkward design

Greetings and Salutations. I'm going to start by saying this one is going to be harder for me to judge as it's not quite lining up in my brain all the way. I've read it two or three times now, and I think I'm finally starting to understand it, but I would genuinely encourage Hotrod to take a look to possibly re-evaluate this one. Still, I'll do my best to break this one down ...

First, I think I finally realized the weapon is a slingshot (classic Bart Simpson or other kid weapon), pull back and release. The sling described in PF is a bit different as near as I can tell, which would be spin in an arc motion before release. If looking at just the evidence on page 269, I might have to disallow it (could be arguably allowed as a variation as opposed to a different weapon though). However, a slingshot is mentioned as an option on page 61 (Targeting/Missile Weapons), so that makes the decision a bit easier.

+1 for the concealment ability. This might be allowable within the rules since it's not a requirement for actual use of the weapon, but I'm not sure. This one is causing a disconnect in my brain, so I'd let Hotrod make the final call on this one.
+1 for hooks used as a melee weapon (I don't think they'd do much, but I'm willing to say they could potentially do a +1 bonus to damage, and that would still provide a bonus).
+3 damage bonus.

1+1+3=5 points.

I'm not going to give points for a possible situational modifier due to surprise attacks. This is a situation modifier and NOT inherent to the weapon, any more than an archer firing from surprise or how ranged attacks generally give defenders a -10 to dodge. These are penalties/modifiers based on situation and/or applied to the opponent, NOT the weapon.

Even if there were a penalty to strike, as the rules stand now I don't believe we're applying any penalties to points gathered so this would be a non-factor. If the situation ever becomes bad enough forcing us to make a new rule to apply penalties to point totals, entries already submitted would be grandfathered in as they broke no rules at the time of their creation.

Black Swarm CrossBow
Construction Notes: Stock Chu-Ko-Nu Repeating Crossbow (CoWAC pg49) manufactured out of Hygorath Bone firing poisoned Black Metal bolts with multi-headed blade
Damage: 1d6 for a standard bolt and x2 for Black Metal + Poison damage** + Multi-Blade Head (+4damage*) = 2d6+4 PLUS Poison Damage
Bonuses***: +1 APM for customization, +1 Strike for customization, +1 strike from arrows, +100ft range (~30m)
Features:
1. ROF = 12 per melee (RAW), which means in 15seconds you can do (24d6+48 damage in 15second melee assuming each round hits BEFORE poison is considered) and there doesn't appear to be a level requirement to fire that fast (unlike other bow/crossbow weapons).
2. poison tipped arrows (while the poison may be used up, the bolt may still be usable)
3. Magazine holds 12 bolts
4. Range: Effective Range is 60meters (~195ft) with a maximum range of 170meters (~550ft)
5. Customization is for specific individual, -1 APM and -1 strike if not that individual (so unit retains the usable by anyone requirement, though nothing requires them to operate it at the same proficiency).
6. Hygorath Bone makes it x2 as strong (SDC I'm assuming, text isn't clear, though if it can also apply to damage in general...) and just as light as wood. Can be found in Land of the Damned#2 pg83
*Multi-Bladed Head is listed as 2d6+4 on pg127 of Western Empire for a Longbow which is 2d6 normally, hence the +4
**Poisons selected would be based on the target for maximum effectiveness when possible, duration could also be a factor here (how is poison damage for multi-round is counted for points?). Poisons on pg264-5 of PF2E main book, most damaging would be Dragon's Breath (6d6) if only considering initial contact damage, duration damage goes to (Acid cleanser/metal dissolver with 3d6*4melee rounds * 3minutes = 36d6), the most cost effective for initial contact is Scorpion's blood, but Acid Cleanser for duration. CoCW&A is clear that it typically uses poisoned rounds
**two Elven NPC shops produce bow/arrow weapons with these bonuses. Western Empire pg97 (Bow: APM, Strike, Range) and Old Ones pg 62 (arrow: strike, also alludes to bows with strike & damage bonuses but no examples)

Poison is disqualified due to the contest rules and its inability to be reused. The poison would need to be reapplied, and therefore does not count. The rest of the entry can remain (though judgment calls along the way will be required).

+1 for Hygorathe bone construction (while I'd suspect double S.D.C. as well, in the end it doesn't matter as it would still only be a +1 even if it doubled your P.S. score or modifier).
+1 for its Burst capability (since it's a flat 12 shots regardless of who is wielding it, I'd have to say it's the equivalent of a machine gun burst as it doesn't technically add APM).
+1 to strike from customization. I debated if the write-up for bows should extend to crossbows or not, but I looked at the wording of the shop (page 97 of WE) and since it says "bows and arrows of all variety," I'm going to say a "crossbow" is still a type of bow.
+3 for one additional Arrow Attack per Round. This wouldn't help speed up the rate of fire, but who cares?! The extra attack is there, and that's all that's important for the point total.
+1 for the extra 100 feet of range (this is less than double, which would be +2, and triple +3, etc.).
+6 damage bonus (2D6 base, and I will address the Multi-Head Arrow later).
+1 for nigh invulnerability of the Black Metal.
+1 for lightweight of the Black Metal.

+1+1+1+3+1+6+1+1=15 points (minimum, see below for possibly more)

The next few will be a bit more questionable, and the points may be adjusted as I think the matter over (and listen to possible input from others).

+1 to strike from the arrow. Similar to my debate with the customization. Bolts/quarrels could be classified as separate from arrows. In this case, it mentions the shop is an expert with the long bow. So the exact rules could disallow this, but for now I'm willing to allow some latitude and count the point.

Multi-Bladed Heads is going to be a questionable one. First, we don't know exactly how this would apply to smaller arrows. Would it stay a +4 damage bonus? Would it be reduce to only +2 (half, for an arrow that does half damage)? Also, I'm skeptical this would work with the crossbow in question. The multi-bladed head would change the size of the arrow (slightly), and I think would end up throwing off the mechanism of the magazine as well as possibly reducing the quantity of arrows that could be contained. For now, I'm inclined to not allow this one. But I'm on the fence, and could be swayed one way or the other with a sound argument (from either side).

I'm not going to factor in the size of the magazine any more than I would factor in the size of a quiver.

I'm also not going to factor in the penalties for others using it. While this could be considered a special feature, it could also be considered a penalty for weapon use in general (as this is more about the weapon than the person wielding it). As such, I'm calling this one even (you're still getting a +5 from the customization).

Though, while I'm at it, I'm going to provide the burst function an extra +1 bonus point (because it's kind of like having an extra attack, but not quite, so more than the +1 of just some extra feature but less than the +3 of an extra attack).

15+1+1=17 for the current total (upwards of +21 if we allow multi-bladed heads with full damage bonus).

That's my current take on the matter. For note, Hotrod, if you feel I'm being too strict on anyone, let me know. Judging this kind of thing is still new to me, and I'm still trying to find the proper balance. Thank you all for your time and entries, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys.

[Prysus]

In my mind kevin must have played a human sword wielding loony, as that seems to be what the game is based around, with everything else thrown willy nilly on top.

Greetings and Salutations. Kevin was usually the GM from my understanding. Looking at the picture of the Defilers I see melee weapons, magic, and guns. I'm guessing in his games if you wanted a ranged weapon, you probably went with magic or a rifle. From a 2nd Edition standpoint, he may have figured with the -10 to parry and dodge rule, bows and arrows didn't need any enhancements. I can't say for sure. Just coming up with some other possibilities.

In the end though, bows and arrows do seem largely forgotten. That's why I wrote the Rifter #45 article (to help expand on archery) as well as the Custom Arrows on my website. Neither of which are applicable to this contest though. Granted, I also consider range a major advantage (in PF at least), so while attempting to allow more customization and enhancement I've also tried to prevent it from getting too overpowered. Shameless self promotion now concluded. Have a great day. Farewell and safe journeys.

[kiralon]

[justify]

In my mind kevin must have played a human sword wielding loony, as that seems to be what the game is based around, with everything else thrown willy nilly on top.

From a 2nd Edition standpoint, he may have figured with the -10 to parry and dodge rule, bows and arrows didn't need any enhancements. I can't say for sure. Just coming up with some other possibilities.

Not to mention only needing a 5 or higher with bonuses to hit anything.
If a small knife can get a +6 to damage
and if tipping an arrow with black metal doubles its damage means the head is the primary damage doing device.
Doesn't that mean the head, which is a bladed weapon can get bladed bonuses .

Does that also mean a longbow (which is blunt or chain) can get chain or blunt bonuses when you hit somebody with it
and would those bonuses count even if they don't do extra damage with the arrow ?

[Prysus]

Not to mention only needing a 5 or higher with bonuses to hit anything.
If a small knife can get a +6 to damage

Greetings and Salutations. I'm curious where you're getting the +6 damage from? I know there's a +4 from Dwarven quality, but not sure where the extra +2 came from. Though I'll agree that daggers are insanely easy to get bonuses on for cheap.

and if tipping an arrow with black metal doubles its damage means the head is the primary damage doing device.

Not necessarily. Setting aside that it's a game mechanic which won't necessarily make logical sense (no matter how hard you try), we still have to remember that Black Metal has magical properties. The Black Metal will also enhance a hammer's damage. Some weapons do as much damage as they do because of their weight ... except Black Metal actually makes the weapon lighter. In the end, Black Metal does what it does because of magical properties.

Doesn't that mean the head, which is a bladed weapon can get bladed bonuses .

No, it would not mean that by default, especially since you're premise was faulty. Look at this a different way, if you can enhance the head of an arrow, they're ideal parrying weapons. Short arrows cost less than 1 gold each. You could purchase a Dwarven Quality short arrow for less than 15 gold and have a 1D6+4 melee weapon with +3 to parry. That would easily be standard starting gear for any adventurer.

Also, you're the one who said it looks like Palladium forgot all about them. This would imply you think Bladed weapons does NOT apply to arrows (otherwise they wouldn't have forgotten about them). So I'm not really sure what you're trying to argue at this point.

Does that also mean a longbow (which is blunt or chain) can get chain or blunt bonuses when you hit somebody with it
and would those bonuses count even if they don't do extra damage with the arrow ?

I'm not sure what you're smoking to think a bow string (or the wood of a bow) and chain are the same thing. I'm not sure if your mind is seriously that gone at the moment or you're just trolling. Either way, you're coming close to my ignoring your posts as a whole because I really hate people who just want to waste my time.

As for whether or not a bow would be Blunt ... I've actually been debating that over since this contest started. I haven't come to a conclusion yet. I wasn't going to bring it up if I could've avoid it. However, I'd actually have to lean towards yes. A bow doesn't fit into the other categories, but W.P. Archery DOES provide a +1 to parry. The only way that bonus makes any sense to me is if the bow is intended to be used in melee combat. If so, Blunt seems appropriate.

[kiralon]

1. Not to mention only needing a 5 or higher with bonuses to hit anything.
If a small knife can get a +6 to damage

Greetings and Salutations. I'm curious where you're getting the +6 damage from? I know there's a +4 from Dwarven quality, but not sure where the extra +2 came from. Though I'll agree that daggers are insanely easy to get bonuses on for cheap.

2. and if tipping an arrow with black metal doubles its damage means the head is the primary damage doing device.

Not necessarily. Setting aside that it's a game mechanic which won't necessarily make logical sense (no matter how hard you try), we still have to remember that Black Metal has magical properties. The Black Metal will also enhance a hammer's damage. Some weapons do as much damage as they do because of their weight ... except Black Metal actually makes the weapon lighter. In the end, Black Metal does what it does because of magical properties.

3. Doesn't that mean the head, which is a bladed weapon can get bladed bonuses .

No, it would not mean that by default, especially since you're premise was faulty. Look at this a different way, if you can enhance the head of an arrow, they're ideal parrying weapons. Short arrows cost less than 1 gold each. You could purchase a Dwarven Quality short arrow for less than 15 gold and have a 1D6+4 melee weapon with +3 to parry. That would easily be standard starting gear for any adventurer.

3a Also, you're the one who said it looks like Palladium forgot all about them. This would imply you think Bladed weapons does NOT apply to arrows (otherwise they wouldn't have forgotten about them). So I'm not really sure what you're trying to argue at this point.

4. Does that also mean a longbow (which is blunt or chain) can get chain or blunt bonuses when you hit somebody with it
and would those bonuses count even if they don't do extra damage with the arrow ?

I'm not sure what you're smoking to think a bow string (or the wood of a bow) and chain are the same thing. I'm not sure if your mind is seriously that gone at the moment or you're just trolling. Either way, you're coming close to my ignoring your posts as a whole because I really hate people who just want to waste my time.

As for whether or not a bow would be Blunt ... I've actually been debating that over since this contest started. I haven't come to a conclusion yet. I wasn't going to bring it up if I could've avoid it. However, I'd actually have to lean towards yes. A bow doesn't fit into the other categories, but W.P. Archery DOES provide a +1 to parry. The only way that bonus makes any sense to me is if the bow is intended to be used in melee combat. If so, Blunt seems appropriate.

To much quoting, just numbers stuff instead.

1. Oops, used polearm bonus
2. A sharper arrow does more damage in real life then a blunt one, and in fact will often pass right through a deer. So the head does make a difference
3. I was just talking about the arrowhead itself, because if just the head being black metal is all it needs to do to do double damage, only the bladed part of the weapon needs to have the bonuses - thus bladed bonuses.
3a you said you were up for arguments to get the bonuses for ranged weaponry, and what I think doesn't matter to this competition, its what you and hotrod think.
4 Nunchakus are a chain weapon and the are most often string weapons, and I have seen bows that screw together, so I was just covering the bases (id class it as blunt, but since its a weapon with a string it could have ended up there)
and does that mean if you put blunt bonuses on the bow (that don't count towards shooting an arrow) they would still count.

5 (Bonus question for prysus) Do arrow bonuses actually count as Arrows do no damage, only bows do. lol, if don't you believe me look in the palladium 2nd ed main book, yet another sign ranged weapons were an after thought, and yes this is a trolling question to be ignored if you want but you made an amazing statement a few years ago saying you play vanilla palladium straight from the book, and in my opinion you have to house rule stuff because there are too many errors to play straight from the book. So if it seems like I throw a lot of stupid stuff your way its because of that, I cant help myself, no one else I know has played vanilla. Not to mention your responses are well thought out, they should have hired you as editor (or at least someone anyway)

[Prysus]

2. A sharper arrow does more damage in real life then a blunt one, and in fact will often pass right through a deer. So the head does make a difference
3. I was just talking about the arrowhead itself, because if just the head being black metal is all it needs to do to do double damage, only the bladed part of the weapon needs to have the bonuses - thus bladed bonuses.

Greetings and Salutations. A heavier shaft can also cause an arrow to do more damage in real life. For the record though, I agree a sharper arrow will do more damage. You used Black Metal as your basis for it being the sole factor, which is faulty logic.

You don't need to convince me that arrows have a blade. I already knew that. The Bladed section however has a very specific list of weapons allowed. Arrows on not on that list. So you'll have to show me evidence the rules are meant to allow it (like an arrow with those bonuses, or something to suggest they should be allowed). Heck, if Hotrod really wants to allow it I'd probably let it slide as well. This isn't something I'm personally opposed to, but as a rules lawyer I wouldn't allow without some actual kind of rule or evidence.

4 Nunchakus are a chain weapon and the are most often string weapons, and I have seen bows that screw together, so I was just covering the bases (id class it as blunt, but since its a weapon with a string it could have ended up there)

Nunchaku in Palladium are connected by a chain. Read W.P. Chain. Look at the picture in the weapons list (that's not a string). Or look at several more famous versions such as Bruce Lee or Michelangelo from TMNT. Examples include:

http://66.media.tumblr.com/8f9a9d2de7b0 ... o1_500.gif
https://media4.giphy.com/media/GobhDrX2RJ2cE/200_s.gif
http://www.sideshowtoy.com/wp-content/u ... 90x600.jpg
http://www.schnittberichte.com/pics/SBs ... 03/011.jpg

Different movies, different characters, different versions, all chains. I didn't even selectively pick those. Now can you try to argue that your string version is the only real version and those are just fake? You can try, but it would be irrelevant to what Palladium is using. Also, even if they were stringed, applying this to bow would mean that bows need to be able to separate as the standard, not as something that can be done but is still unusual/uncommon.

and does that mean if you put blunt bonuses on the bow (that don't count towards shooting an arrow) they would still count.

I'll let Hotrod weigh in on this, but I would say "Yes, they count." Blunt has the advantage of an "etc." which gives the legal wiggle room.

5 (Bonus question for prysus) Do arrow bonuses actually count as Arrows do no damage, only bows do.

This thread already shows evidence of a different type of arrow doing more damage. Dragon Bone Arrows are one such example. So your facts are lacking, again. Though yes, I know what you're talking about in the main book.

yes this is a trolling question to be ignored if you want but you made an amazing statement a few years ago saying you play vanilla palladium straight from the book, and in my opinion you have to house rule stuff because there are too many errors to play straight from the book. So if it seems like I throw a lot of stupid stuff your way its because of that, I cant help myself, no one else I know has played vanilla.

You'll have to quote me saying that, providing the thread would be useful as well, especially since that doesn't sound like me at all. My very first Fantasy campaign was a homebrewed world. My first campaign in the actual Palladium setting I allowed things from Nightbane, HU, and other settings. I also started them off on an island of my creation (Eltara, mentioned in Rifter #45 as well as my Dwarven Culture on my site). In fact, my entire site is a good indication I don't stick just to the books. I do believe in sticking to the books and building from there when creating new material (not just ignoring what currently exists). So I think you're either misremembering, or there's context that's being left out. Farewell and safe journeys.[/justify]

[ShadowLogan]

1: The list for Bladed items has a list, and arrows/bolts are not on them. The list is actually rather specific, and doesn't end in an "etc." like the Blunt category. As such, I'm inclined to believe that's the full extent of that list.

I agree that arrows/bolts are not specifically on the list and it doesn't seem to consider an etc possibility. However, there are examples of spear heads that match the basic design of some arrow head examples in CoCW&A illustrations, and given that swords and knives can also be said to be similar just at different scales spears and arrows might also be considered the same. Which is why I asked (it also allows bow/arrows to be as competitive as thrown weapons if we can use applicable superior quality weapons).

First, I think I finally realized the weapon is a slingshot (classic Bart Simpson or other kid weapon), pull back and release. The sling described in PF is a bit different as near as I can tell, which would be spin in an arc motion before release. If looking at just the evidence on page 269, I might have to disallow it (could be arguably allowed as a variation as opposed to a different weapon though). However, a slingshot is mentioned as an option on page 61 (Targeting/Missile Weapons), so that makes the decision a bit easier.

Yes I pictured it in that vein as that is how I picture a slingshot, maybe I should have described it as a crossbow to avoid confusion or put a modern reference in to help (was actually thinking more of Dennis the Menace than Bart Simpson).

+1 for its Burst capability (since it's a flat 12 shots regardless of who is wielding it, I'd have to say it's the equivalent of a machine gun burst as it doesn't technically add APM).

I agree about the burst aspect, but that isn't technically in the PF rules and would have to be imported which is why I avoided using the term. Though if you are allowing it to use the burst rules, then shouldn't:
-the points for damage be based on the burst damage and not a single round damage?
-there also be a point for a spray attack option if using the machine gun burst rules?

+3 for one additional Arrow Attack per Round. This wouldn't help speed up the rate of fire, but who cares?! The extra attack is there, and that's all that's important for the point total.

Yes and No. While it doesn't help the ROF per say, it gives the crossbow user more action options in terms of firing smaller size bursts or single fire (nothing requires the user to fire off the entire magazine AFAIK), dodging an attack instead of attacking (though I think the bonus attack should only be applicable to the use of said weapon), etc.

Multi-Bladed Heads is going to be a questionable one...

I agree it can be a questionable one. The game doesn't really handle arrow head design AFAIK, I know its mentioned in CoWA&C and illustrated, but for game purposes the effects of different heads was never explored. That is about the only reference I could find to actual non-standard normal arrow heads in the game AFAIK. However it could also be considered an example of Superior Weapon manufacture in which case the size of the weapon is irrelevant in the category (ex swords and knives are different size, but have the same bonus pool to draw from).

I'm not going to factor in the size of the magazine any more than I would factor in the size of a quiver.

Well we need to know the magazine size for game purposes if not scoring and that is why it was there, so the stats presented to be as usable as possible and not necessarily strictly for points.

That said the fact that their is a magazine on the weapon should count at least as a feature regardless of capacity since normal crossbows and bows don't come with a built-in magazine like this.

[Hotrod]

For note, Hotrod, if you feel I'm being too strict on anyone, let me know. Judging this kind of thing is still new to me, and I'm still trying to find the proper balance. Thank you all for your time and entries, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys.

On the stealth slingshot, I would give it a +2 instead of +1 for the concealability, as it offers the character an attack option that would not otherwise be available by bringing in a weapon to a situation in which no weapons would be allowed. It's an indirect attack mode rationale, but I think it's appropriate here. I agree on the ring hooks being +1 to punch. It's not a new attack option. Now, if you could use them with the string as a garrot wire, then you'd have a +2 for an attack option that is also silent and assassin-appropriate, but that's for the submitter to put in, not me. My assessment would be a total of 6 points for this one as submitted.

On the subject of whether or not we can use the arrowhead of one type of missile on another, I'm inclined to say maybe, but it depends on the substitution itself. My interpretation would be that an arrowhead used on a longbow could be used on another bow or crossbow, but only if that alternate bow or crossbow had the same base damage (2D6). This seems to be supported by Eastern Territory p171, in which the same fletcher's longbow arrows and short bow arrows have different damage bonuses. Of course, per Eastern Territory p42, yellow wood arrows are all +2 to damage regardless, so you could go either way. You're the chief judge, Prysus! I'll follow your precedent.

The repeating crossbow rate of fire question is tricky, because the rules for bows aren't consistent with what's presented in the compendium. Here's how I would do it: A 15th level archer has a rate of fire of 8 shots per melee by the rules as written. 12 shots per melee is four more, so I'd assign 4x3=+12 points for the rate of fire bonus. I would use this in lieu of the +3 that was already granted for bow customization AND the +1 for the burst capability.

On the range issue, the bonus is +1 for every 50% increase in range in the rules. So if the range is doubled, then the increase is 100%, which is +2. If it's tripled, then it's +200% increase, which is +4. I would also subtract 1 point for every 50% reduction in range, rounded down (so 90% range is still -1, but 45% of range is -2)

On the subject of a bow being a blunt weapon, I'd be very careful there. If you were to use dwarf weapon-smithing as a blunt weapon and apply that to a bow, you'd have a nice staff or mace, but bows aren't meant to be blunt weapons except at great necessity. I could see an argument for a spear thrower, maybe, but a bow? Bows are engineered for very specific motions and stresses; I'm skeptical about engineering one from the ground up as a blunt weapon and a bow, at least with conventional materials. One possible exception might be a crossbow in which the bow itself is removable from the stock. The stock could maybe be used as a blunt weapon. Of course, it would be a great way to wreck an expensive weapon, but in a pinch, I guess it's better than nothing, and it might be more durable if it's built for that use (or uses exotic and nearly-invincible materials). I'm not 100% against having people put smithing bonuses for blunt weapons on bows, but I'd have to see a compelling case for a weapon that's both an effective beat-stick and a calibrated, flexible bow.

[Hotrod]

The White Bows

In an effort to build up their army in preparation for the coming civil wars, House Jaoradon has established The White Bowmen, an elite force of longbowmen and rangers who are rapidly gaining fame. Though relatively new, this young force of humans and elves has developed a reputation as marksmen and forest fighters, partly with the help of their signature white bows and arrows. The materials used in their construction are a closely-guarded secret which the white coloring helps to keep. It also allows the White Bowmen to recover their valuable arrows more easily and makes stolen arrows easy to identify. It is a crime for anyone else to keep or use white arrows in the Vequerrel Woodlands, and any stray arrows are bought back for 100 gold per arrow (they are marked and numbered for accountability).

Each White Bow is custom-made by Gabriel for the specific bowman (Western Empire, p97). This provides +1 to strike, +1 attack per melee (p97, Western Empire), and +100 feet in range.
The bow is made of White Iron, giving it +1 to strike due to superior balance (p56, Northern Hinterlands) and allowing it to ignore the first 20 points of damage inflicted upon it.
The arrows are imported from the famed fletcher Everall of the Eastern Territory, making them +1 to strike and +40 feet in range.
The arrows are made of yellow wood (+2 to damage, Eastern Territory p42) and black metal (Double damage, Dragons and Gods) arrowheads of the multi-blade design (+4 to damage, Western Empire p127).
The entire bow and all its arrows are colored white by laying them on The White Knife (Wolfen Empire, p116-117) for six hours each. This disguises the materials used and adds to the mistique of this elite group.

Summary
Damage is 2D6 (base)+2(yellow wood)+4(multi-blade) x2 (black metal)=4D6+12
Combined +3 to strike
+1 attack per melee
Range is 780 feet (not enough to warrant a bonus over 640 feet)
Bow ignores the first 20 points of damage to it
Arrows are incredibly sturdy due to yellow wood and black metal construction.
Both bows and arrows are colored white for easy identification and recovery.

This is my semi-serious effort to make the best overall ranged bow I could plausibly make in canon. I could play the points better by using stonewood for the arrows to make the damage 6D6+8, but I wanted to go for range and stopping power, hence the yellow wood.

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations to one and all. I'll start by saying after my last post this morning, I gave this contest some thought. As a G.M. I tend to be lenient and house rule various things for fun. As a judge (and in many ways on these forums in general) I've done my best to stick strictly to the rules though. In Palladium though, that's not always possible as often things are left vague, or left to wonder how things might work with others. When this contest started I opted to steer clear of straying from the rules. However, I'm starting to think this was a mistake. Don't get me wrong, I still fully intend to follow the rules within the books. However, in other matters that are a little more questionable, I'll do my best to make a ruling as if I were the G.M., which means you may not get everything you want but it might be better than what the book explicitly spells out. As such, I'm going to take this time to address a few questions that have come up thus far with harder/firmer answers ...

1. Are you guys going to define the capabilities of White Metal (Kormath's blood metal, D&G p226) for the purposes here so that everyone is on the same page and doesn't invoke whatever values they want?

I stand by my earlier statement that I will NOT define what it does. However, I think I'll make this rule for the contest: White Metal, if used alone, will provide a +3 bonus points for unspecified special features. If used in conjunction with ANY other material, it will only provide a +1 bonus for unspecified features. White Metal is stated to be the most powerful of the dragon bloods, but we don't have rules for it. As such it will provide a +3 bonus when used alone (though it will not provide bonuses or damage benefits). This will help keep it on par with the others. However, if used with another material, I'm going to say that there's overlap between the materials, and reduce the bonus to only a +1. White Metal bonuses can never drop below the +1 though. This won't be a lot better, but will help provide a bit more of an option.

2. Are the rules for Superior Weapons concerning spears applicable to arrows/bolts? (PF2E pg271-2)

I agree that arrows/bolts are not specifically on the list and it doesn't seem to consider an etc possibility. However, there are examples of spear heads that match the basic design of some arrow head examples in CoCW&A illustrations, and given that swords and knives can also be said to be similar just at different scales spears and arrows might also be considered the same. Which is why I asked (it also allows bow/arrows to be as competitive as thrown weapons if we can use applicable superior quality weapons).

At this point, I'm willing to rule "No, the Superior Weapon rules on page 271 & 272 of PF2 main book will not work on arrows." While I know they're similar in concept to others and allowing it would help arrows be more competitive, my job as judge is not to slant the results. As such, I'm not going to cheat to give arrows an extra edge they don't have by the books. While as an individual I think it might suck, those are the rules.

The Superior Weapons doesn't leave an opening for arrows. And the experts Fletchers providing a +1 to strike with an arrow wouldn't be that impressive if any/every Kobold, Dwarven, and Jotan blacksmith could do it and better. So unless someone can provide evidence (such as an example in the book, or wording that will open the door to arrows), this is my ruling.

Multi-Bladed Heads is going to be a questionable one...

I agree it can be a questionable one. The game doesn't really handle arrow head design AFAIK, I know its mentioned in CoWA&C and illustrated, but for game purposes the effects of different heads was never explored. That is about the only reference I could find to actual non-standard normal arrow heads in the game AFAIK. However it could also be considered an example of Superior Weapon manufacture in which case the size of the weapon is irrelevant in the category (ex swords and knives are different size, but have the same bonus pool to draw from).

I will have to make a ruling on a case by case basis, but as far as the Multi-Bladed Heads this will be my ruling ...

Multi-Bladed Heads can work on a Short Bow and smaller Cross Bows. However, it will only inflict a +2 damage bonus per D6 base damage. This means a 1D6 short arrow (or bolt) becomes 1D6+2, a 2D6 long arrow (or bolt) will become 2D6+4. If you manage to find a 3D6 arrow, it will do 3D6+6. The bigger/larger the arrow, the more damage the head will be able to do. Also, since this is part of the weapon and NOT a Superior Weapon bonus, it can benefit from the double damage of Black Metal (or other materials), while the damage bonus from superior craftsmanship does not double.

Note: I will be recalculating Shadow Logan's previous entries soon, using this rule as well as a slightly different mindset. This should be beneficial to the previous point totals, though they may still not be epic point grabs. We'll see.

On the range issue, the bonus is +1 for every 50% increase in range in the rules. So if the range is doubled, then the increase is 100%, which is +2. If it's tripled, then it's +200% increase, which is +4. I would also subtract 1 point for every 50% reduction in range, rounded down (so 90% range is still -1, but 45% of range is -2)

I like this rule. As this is a ranged contest, something that increases or decreases range should be rewarded and penalized accordingly. Consider it implemented from this point forward. I will not, personally, go back and rejudge any previous entries with this ruling though (unless they are modified after this date), as it did not officially exist for this contest until now. Also, if something provides a -1 to strike (as an example), I will apply the -1 to your bonuses.

On the subject of a bow being a blunt weapon, I'd be very careful there. If you were to use dwarf weapon-smithing as a blunt weapon and apply that to a bow, you'd have a nice staff or mace, but bows aren't meant to be blunt weapons except at great necessity. I could see an argument for a spear thrower, maybe, but a bow? Bows are engineered for very specific motions and stresses; I'm skeptical about engineering one from the ground up as a blunt weapon and a bow, at least with conventional materials. One possible exception might be a crossbow in which the bow itself is removable from the stock. The stock could maybe be used as a blunt weapon. Of course, it would be a great way to wreck an expensive weapon, but in a pinch, I guess it's better than nothing, and it might be more durable if it's built for that use (or uses exotic and nearly-invincible materials). I'm not 100% against having people put smithing bonuses for blunt weapons on bows, but I'd have to see a compelling case for a weapon that's both an effective beat-stick and a calibrated, flexible bow.

I appreciate your input on the matter. So this is my decision: Bows can benefit from Superior Weapons with Blunt bonuses. However, there are two restrictions ...

1: Because you're using a Dwarven smith to build your weapon, you can NOT benefit from a different bow maker (such as Custom Bows). As such you can have a highly precise weapon OR you can have a blunt instrument that's okay at firing an arrow.

2: Unless the bow is made out of a special material that grants both durability AND flexibility, a Blunt Bow (as I'm going to refer to it for now) will reduce range by half (50%). With the new rule, that means the entry will only be at a -1 penalty, as long as there are no further range penalties.

Okay that should be all for now. I hope to be back a little later to start judging some entries again. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Prysus]

Black Swarm CrossBow
Construction Notes: Stock Chu-Ko-Nu Repeating Crossbow (CoWAC pg49) manufactured out of Hygorath Bone firing poisoned Black Metal bolts with multi-headed blade
Damage: 1d6 for a standard bolt and x2 for Black Metal + Poison damage** + Multi-Blade Head (+4damage*) = 2d6+4 PLUS Poison Damage
Bonuses***: +1 APM for customization, +1 Strike for customization, +1 strike from arrows, +100ft range (~30m)
Features:
1. ROF = 12 per melee (RAW), which means in 15seconds you can do (24d6+48 damage in 15second melee assuming each round hits BEFORE poison is considered) and there doesn't appear to be a level requirement to fire that fast (unlike other bow/crossbow weapons).
2. poison tipped arrows (while the poison may be used up, the bolt may still be usable)
3. Magazine holds 12 bolts
4. Range: Effective Range is 60meters (~195ft) with a maximum range of 170meters (~550ft)
5. Customization is for specific individual, -1 APM and -1 strike if not that individual (so unit retains the usable by anyone requirement, though nothing requires them to operate it at the same proficiency).
6. Hygorath Bone makes it x2 as strong (SDC I'm assuming, text isn't clear, though if it can also apply to damage in general...) and just as light as wood. Can be found in Land of the Damned#2 pg83
*Multi-Bladed Head is listed as 2d6+4 on pg127 of Western Empire for a Longbow which is 2d6 normally, hence the +4
**Poisons selected would be based on the target for maximum effectiveness when possible, duration could also be a factor here (how is poison damage for multi-round is counted for points?). Poisons on pg264-5 of PF2E main book, most damaging would be Dragon's Breath (6d6) if only considering initial contact damage, duration damage goes to (Acid cleanser/metal dissolver with 3d6*4melee rounds * 3minutes = 36d6), the most cost effective for initial contact is Scorpion's blood, but Acid Cleanser for duration. CoCW&A is clear that it typically uses poisoned rounds
**two Elven NPC shops produce bow/arrow weapons with these bonuses. Western Empire pg97 (Bow: APM, Strike, Range) and Old Ones pg 62 (arrow: strike, also alludes to bows with strike & damage bonuses but no examples)

Greetings and Salutations. Okay, I'll rate this one more time ...

Disqualification of the poison remains.
+1 for Hygorathe bone construction (while I'd suspect double S.D.C. as well, in the end it doesn't matter as it would still only be a +1 even if it doubled your P.S. score or modifier).
+1 for a built-in magazine. Congratulations, you convinced me this should be included.
+1 to strike from the arrow. I'm sticking with my close enough philosophy from earlier.
+1 to strike from customization. I debated if the write-up for bows should extend to crossbows or not, but I looked at the wording of the shop (page 97 of WE) and since it says "bows and arrows of all variety," I'm going to say a "crossbow" is still a type of bow.
+3 for one additional Arrow Attack per Round. This wouldn't help speed up the rate of fire, but who cares?! The extra attack is there, and that's all that's important for the point total.
+1 for the extra 100 feet of range (this lands almost exactly at the 50% mark and qualifies for the bonus. Of course, while I think Hotrod had meant 50% or higher, I think if you get a range increase a +1 is appropriate UP TO 50% I might still provide the bonus).
+10 base damage (1D6 base, +2 for Multi-Bladed Head, x2 for Black Metal). I've been debating how to rank the shot capabilities of this. While I listened to Hotrod's take on it, I think I'll do something a little closer to the actual burst rules (but not quite). ROF is a little too variable based on level. In this case, I think I'm going to compare it to APM, which tends to average around 4 to 6 (in my experience). This would mean 2 to 3 shots per attack (or akin to), or equal to a Short Burst. So I'm going to say damage from a single round x2 (if firing three bolts, the increased speed of firing risks missing your target once, deal with it). That makes this a total of +20.
+1 for nigh invulnerability of the Black Metal.
+1 for lightweight of the Black Metal.

1+1+1+1+3+1+20+1+1=30 points!*

Note: I removed the bonus from the "burst" capability since it became factored into the actual damage stat instead. I'm only giving you one bonus from that feature, and this one is much nicer than the last one. Also, despite the slightly different method, this point total comes very close to what Hotrod suggested (just for a different reason). I just preferred the math this way.

There, I feel a bit better about that one. Hopefully you do too. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Prysus]

The White Bows

Greetings and Salutations. Always enjoy the stories behind the weapons, though no points for those. So, onto the actual judging ...

Bow:
+1 for being able to ignore the first 20 S.D.C. of damage.
+1 for the strike bonus (melee only) from White Iron.
+1 for the strike bonus from Customization.
+3 for the extra attack from Customization.
+1 for increased range (this is technically bow and arrow bonuses, but the bulk came from the bow, and while it doesn't reach 50% I think this still deserves some level of reward ... so deal with it).

Arrows:
+1 for the strike bonus from Nath Everall (page 171 of Eastern Territory, since you didn't list a page number).
+2 for the Yellow Wood special reaction to fire (making them difficult to damage from fire, but great for incendiary weapons if needed, which is two different traits).
+1 for invulnerable to all but magic from Black Metal (making it still recoverable even if the shaft is burned).
+1 for being lightweight from Black Metal.
+24 from damage.

+1+1+1+3+1+1+2+1+1+24=36 points!

The entire bow and all its arrows are colored white by laying them on The White Knife (Wolfen Empire, p116-117) for six hours each.

I didn't forget about this and I like the creativity behind it, but this would be placing a Curse on the items (the book tells us Remove Curse is the only way to undo the color change). While the rules of the contest don't technically discount curses, I do think they're just a variation of Enchantment. So I'm going to disqualify this aspect of the weapon, unless you can rules lawyer me into allowing it.

That should cover the things for now. Farewell and safe journeys to all.

[ShadowLogan]

Broken Branch Throwing Knife
Base Weapon: Mongwana (African Throwing Knife, W&A pg30)
Construction: Superior Dwarven Crafted Mongwana made of black metal constructed by a Dwarven Hex Master that has the striking blade edge inlaid with Kym-nark-mar glass for sharpness and overall inlaid with Silver for vulnerabilities. The weapon is also designed for poison delivery.
Damage: 2d6 x2 Black Metal +4 = 4d6 +4
Bonuses: +2 Init, +1 Parry, +2 Strike Thrown (Thrown), +2 Parry, +2 Strike (general) x2 Hex = +4 Init, +4 Strike (Thrown), +4 Strike (General) +6 Parry
Feature Notes:
-0.6kg weight (due to 1/2 weight of Black Metal)
-invulnerable to all but magic (black metal)
-x2 SDC for item (black metal)
-razor sharp, ignore AR of natural material (pg224 of D&G, Kym-nark-mar glass blood by-product, if I'm reading that correctly that is what it essentially does)
-poisoned
-Silver inlaid for more effective use against those vulnerable to silver
-odd appearance (see illustration) that could catch opponents unaware (it doesn't look like it would be good for throwing is what I'm saying).
-increased throwing range due to being lighter?

Base Weapon: Francisca Throwing Axe (W&A pg21)
Construction: Superior Dwarven Crafted Fransica Throwing Axe head made from Black Metal and inlaid with Kym-nark-mar glass and Silver. The GNM glass is inlaid on (into) the striking edge. The Haft is made from Hygorath bone (since it has the same mass as wood, I'm thinking even at 1/2 mass a metal handle will still weigh more)
Damage: 2d6 x2 Black metal +4 =4d6+4
Bonuses: +2 Init, +1 Strike (general), +1 Parry, +2 strike (thrown), +2 Strike (general), +2 parry x2 Hex = +4 Init, +6 Strike (general), +4 Strike (thrown), +6 Parry
Feature Notes:
-Silver inlaid for more effective use against those vulnerable to silver
-1/2 Weight of the head (Black metal)
-invulnerable to all but magic (Black metal)
-x2 SDC for locations (black metal and hygorath bone)
-razor sharp, ignore AR of natural material (pg224 of D&G, Kym-nark-mar glass, If I'm reading that correctly that is what it essentially does)
-increased throwing range due to being lighter? Base Range is 15m (CoWA&C)
-standard battle tactic was to throw the weapon and follow it up with a charge

Fire Disk (intended more as a "fun experiment" than intending to be a serious contender)
Base Weapon: Chakram (W&A pg 29, W&A throwing disk, Blade?)
Construction Notes: Chakram throwing disk constructed of the Magma Metal and inlaid with Black Metal, Silver, and Kym-nark-mar Glass by a Dwarven Hex Master for full superior weapon quality bonuses (treating it as a blade weapon) for balance. The KNM glass is inlaid into alternating narrow bands on the striking edge.
Damage: 1d6 Base x2 Black Metal +4 Smiting +2 Magma Metal Alloy =2d6+6 (I think its done in the right order)
Base Bonuses: +2 Init, +5 Strike, +6 Strike when thrown, +3 Parry (treating it as a blade weapon, applying natural modifiers from W&A that is why the Parry bonus is so low even after max Hexing)
Features:
-1/2 weight and invulnerable to all but magic from Black metal
-silver inlaid in construction (improved damage to those vulnerable to silver)
-razor sharp, ignoring AR of natural material (pg224 of D&G, Kym-nark-mar glass, if I read that correctly is how it works).
-Magma Metal Alloy (Mount Nimro pg96 Magma Shields, story wise I would have it as an "experiment" looking for other uses for the metal, as it is human size I used their damage bonuses for the shield instead of the giant, though as a thrown weapon giant might be applicable)

EDIT: KNM Glass inlaid position is clarified to be effective

[Hotrod]

Incidentally, for those curious about some of the really neat physics behind archery and arrow design/fabrication, you should check out this video on the archer's paradox.

[ShadowLogan]

Spear of Slaying
This non-enchanted weapon is powerful enough to rival that of the most powerful and rarer Rune Weapons in terms of physical damage it can inflict, and it is considered a weak knock-off of a true Spear of Slaying. A True Spear of Slaying is virtually impossible to hard to come by as it is a Hexed Giant Weapon, that the dwarven Hex Masters refuse to reproduce (it was part of their original contract when they produced an undisclosed number of these weapons).

The True Spears of Slaying are part of a multi-ringed defense around a heavily fortified ancient tower located in the northern mountains bordering the Land of the Damned. No one is quite sure what is in the ancient Tower, but it is believed to be very important as the defenses have held for as long as anyone can find records for the place. Attempts to physically enter the Tower have all been repulsed, usually by the large force of Golem spear throwers (using Spears of Slaying and a Spear Thrower) situated on balconies that run up the height of the tower (starting at the 1/2 way point) and the top of the tower itself, though mass formations have provoked other responses from the Tower's defenders. Recovery of the Spears has proven to be difficult as they tend to be teleported away, though the most detailed inspection to date has found them to not have any signs of enchantment before it teleported away which is how the knock offs even exist.

Other defenses known about the Tower to date include ethereal-like entities that project out for a given radius from the tower. And the Tower itself appears to block travel by magical or psyhic means (astral projection, teleport, remote viewing, etc). The tower's doors (at the base, roof, and balconies) and windows (what few there are) are all closed, and are suspected to be locked. Each Golem is an Iron Golem (and qualify as giant-size), and has a cache of apparently identical looking spears.

The last major attempt to penetrate the tower consisted of 10,000 men aided by a quartet of allied adult dragons and twice as many hatchlings two thousand years ago. Only one hatchling and 500 men survived. The majority of their losses (80%) according to the survivors as attributed to the Spears of Slaying, and another 15% due to a previously unknown defense system (possibly activated by the shear numbers present), with the remaining 5% due to disease and environmental factors (land slides, slipping and falling, etc).

Spear of Slaying
Construction: A Dwarven manufactured version for maximum bonuses of an Aunurgirth Spear (W&A pg33) made from Black Metal, with alternating KNM Glass and Silver barbs (the weapon has barbs in the description).
Damage: 4d6 Base x2 Black metal +4 = 8d6+4
Bonuses: +2 Strike (thrown), +1 Init, +1 Parry, +2 strike, +2 parry
Features:
1. 1/2 weight (Black Metal)
2. invulnerable to all but magic (Black Metal)
3. more duarable, x2 SDC (Black Metal)
4. Razor Sharp, ignores natural AR (KNM Glass, D&G pg224)
5. Silver barbs to allow the weapon to be more effective against those vulnerable to silver attack (ex vampires or were-creatures)
6. When used with a Black Metal constructed Spear Thrower it does +2d6 damage (1d6 base 1d6 black metal bonus) and increases the range by ~162ft (50m)
7. A True Spear of Slaying is of identical design and construction, but is Giant Size and Hex Master (that means using the spear thrower it does 14d6+8 damage and all bonuses are double).

Spear of Slaying Thrower
Construction: The Spear Thrower is constructed of Black Metal
Damage: +1d6 base x 2 Black metal +4 = +2d6+4 to any spear it throws
Bonuses: +2 Strike (thrown)
Features:
1. 1/2 weight (Black Metal)
2. invulnerable to all but magic (Black Metal)
3. more durable, x2 SDC (Black Metal)
4. Bonus to Strike and Damage is based on Dwarven Superior Quality for a Spear Weapon, since a spear thrower could be seen as part of spear it could receive bonuses (?) based on the Spear category

Grappling Hook
Kawanga (WA&C of the Orient pg8)
Construction: A Kawanga with the grappling hook made from Black metal, each tip of the hook is tipped with KNM Glass that has a longer rope than normal for increased reach
Damage: 1d6 base (per WP skill description) x2 Black metal = 2d6
Bonuses: +1 Init, +1 parry (would treating it as an entangle be be better given the nature of the weapon?), +1 Strike
Feature Notes:
1. Reach is 5m base, but I'm doubling the length by adding more rope material (10m = ~32.5ft). This probably requires some modification to how the Kawanga is actually transported/used.
2. Sharpness ability from KNM Glass (D&G pg224), which should make it easier to secure
3. 1/2 Weight for grappling hook (Black Metal)
4. Invulnerable to all but magic for the head (Black metal)
5. non-movement Retrieval (pull the rope instead of walk/run to get it)
6. Non-Direct Damaging uses: use it to climb a wall/tree (easier), launch boarding lines to a ship, trip attack, fishing (okay we're talking big fish here), secure a horse or boat, pull someone off a horse

Steel Tree Long Bow Import
The launcher and Arrows here might be disqualified as the launcher is a non-PF import (not allowed under the grading criteria), and the arrows might require enchantment to use the Angel feathers (it might count as an enchantment, which isn't allowed)

Stock Steel Tree Long Bow (no modifications)
The launcher is a rare dimensional import from Rifts Earth (though as its alien to Rifts Earth they came from somewhere else): a stock Steel Tree Long Bow (Rifts WB26pg79). It fires Dragon Feather Long Bow Arrows that are created to be more survivable. Though I do wonder if Red Metal Dragon Blood could be used to produce a bow weapon (it is supposed to be flexible), but I am not sure what the stat modifiers would look like for performance (if any).
Features:
1. x2 damage for using SDC material arrows (per source)
2. 1000ft range (vs 640ft range PF2E WP on pg59, so a 56% increase)
3. 7lb weight, this imposes a -2 strike penalty (per source) vs 2lb weight (PF2E for a normal bow of this type).
4. PS of 21 (normal, PS of 6 if SN) in order to use the bow

Dragon Feather Long Bow Arrow
Construction: The multi-blade head is made of Black Metal tipped with KNM Glass designed for armor piercing with a shaft made from Red Metal (for its flexibility) using 2 Angel Feathers for stabilizers. The various Dragon Blood products are to reduce the chance of the arrows shattering on impact from use in a Steel Tree Bow.
Damage: 2d6 base x2 black metal +4 multi-head = 4d6+4, When Fired from a Steel Tree Long Bow Damage would be 8d6+8
Bonuses: +1 Strike for accuracy, x2 Range (might be x4)
Features:
1. Multi-Blade Head (pg127 of Western Empire)
2. Accuracy (Old Ones pg 62 NPC shop)
3. Armor Piercing Head design (CoWC&A pg42 right column first full paragraph, doesn't go into game effects but mentions arrow heads are designed for either AP or for lightly armored foes)
4. Razor Sharp and ignore natural armor (KNM Glass)
5. Shaft is impervious to damage (Red Metal)
6. Shaft & Head are 1/2 weight (Red and Black Metal)
7. Shaft has x3 SDC for breaking purposes (Red Metal)
8. Head has x2 SDC for breaking purposes (Black Metal)
9. Tip of Head is unbreakable (KNM Glass)
10. Increased Range (Angel Feathers, based on the Dragon Bone Arrow with Angel Feathers having x4 normal range, which means it goes x2 as far as a normal dragon bone arrow which goes x2 far as a normal arrow or is that x4 farther than the normal dragon bone D&Gpg231)

EDIT: Clarified the KNM Glass placement in construction.

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. I'll likely be judging the weapons tomorrow for points. However, I wanted to make a quick response to address something now (this will give time to adjust as needed). The Blood of Kym-Nark-Mar cuts through A.R. due to its "razor sharp" tip or edge. This sharpness is what grants the ability, not some inherent factor of the material. Unless I'm missing something, simply having it inlaid into the weapon will NOT great any benefits. Since this appears in nearly every entry of ShadowLogan, I wanted to address is sooner than later.

Note: Silver, on the other hand, I'll allow. This is because silver will work even on blunt instruments like a staff. I'm not sure if there's a % of silver in/coating the weapon required or not (I'd have to do more research for that answer), but I'm not worried about it and will allow it anyways.

That should be all for now. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys.

[ShadowLogan]

Okay thanks for the heads up on the KNM glass. I have edited the entries above to be more clear where it needed to be.

When I think of inlaying the substance I assume the inlaid material will be put in such that it would be effective and not just cosmetic.

[Prysus]

Broken Branch Throwing Knife

Greetings and Salutations. Okay, so let's look at this now ...

16 damage bonus (6 base, x2, +4)
+2 from weapon Initiative bonus.*
+1 from weapon Parry bonus.*
+2 from weapon Throw/Strike bonus.*
+4 from Hex Parry bonus.
+4 from Hex Strike bonus (melee, even though CWAC page 18 mentions that this weapon would have "little combat value" if not thrown, I'm still adding this in).
+1 for being lightweight.**
+1 for double the S.D.C.
+1 for being invulnerable to all but magic.
+1 for being able to bypass armor.**
+1 for still inflicting damage to armor as well (this basically allows it to damage two things at once!).
+1 for being able to hurt beings vulnerable to silver.

* I'll grant that the "Hex" mentions doubles bonuses without a qualifier. However, I'm still going to count natural weapon bonuses (from CWAC) as separate from the Superior Craftsmanship bonuses. While I could get into various reasons for this, there are two main. 1: We haven't ruled that way in the contest (or the previous one) yet, and I'm not about to change that ruling. 2: As I stated earlier, I'm treating CWAC and PF as separate weapons. While I'm willing to allow the "Hex" and the natural bonuses to stack, the Hex can't enhance something not from its setting. So I'm keeping them separate.

** While Black Metal mentions being lightweight (and even references Red Metal), I don't see either one actually claiming half the weight. From what I can tell, this is something you added in.

*** As a G.M. I'd rule that can only benefit from either the razor sharp edge or from the double damage, whichever the edge is made out of. However, this kind of thing has been allowed in the previous contest. Also, I'm not the GM, I'm just the judge. So I'm allowing this since there's already precedence for this within the contest framework.

I'm not granting any increased range from being lightweight. The book doesn't suggest to do so, and there's been no precedent set forth in the contest yet either, so while a valiant attempt it would require an entirely new set of rules that currently doesn't exist, and I'm not about to create them. Also, I didn't find any evidence of it actually being half weight (see ** above), just light which is non-descript in many ways.

Also, the unusual shape will not be granted a bonus. While I get what you're saying, it's not an actual feature listed in the book. I could equally argue a weapon with an increased range would be underestimated because opponents wouldn't think it can be thrown as far. This is being treated as if the weapons actually exist in this world, and if they exist and are used then people will know of them. Nice try though. I genuinely mean that.

16+2+1+2+4+4+1+1+1+1+1+1=35 points!

Base Weapon: Francisca Throwing Axe (W&A pg21)

16 damage bonus (6 base, x2, +4)
+2 for weapon Initiative bonus.
+1 for weapon Strike bonus.
+1 for weapon Parry bonus.
+2 for weapon Strike/Throw bonus.
+4 for Hex Strike bonus.
+4 for Hex Parry bonus.
+1 for damage to creatures vulnerable to silver.
+1 for being able to bypass armor.
+1 for still inflicting damage to armor as well (this basically allows it to damage two things at once!).
+1 for lightweight.
+1 to invulnerable to all but magic.
+1 for double the S.D.C.
+1 for incapacitating the enemy or removing their shield (weapon in use, CWAC, page 10).

Note: Same rulings as above (which I won't repeat for time and space).

16+2+1+1+2+4+4+1+1+1+1+1+1+1=37 points!

Fire Disk (intended more as a "fun experiment" than intending to be a serious contender)

While an interesting experiment, I'm going to disqualify this one early. The main issue here is the Magma Metal. There are at least three different problems with it and the rest of the weapon.

1: We don't have any rules for it being a weapon. Even if I used the same bonuses and limitations as the shields ...
2: This is only forged at one location, which would exclude it from also being Hexed (which is a different location). If we worked around that ...
3: The Shields have a P.S. requirement to use. If we include the penalties, we'd have to include the penalties as well. Weapons with a P.S. requirement are not allowed per the contest rules.

Without the Magma Metal your weapon is ...

10 damage bonus (3 base, x2, +4)
+2 for weapon Initiative bonus.
+1 for weapon Strike (melee) bonus.
-1 for weapon Parry penalty (yes, it actually has a penalty!)
+2 for weapon Strike/Throw bonus
+4 for Hex Strike bonus.
+4 for Hex Parry bonus.
+1 for lightweight.
+1 for invulnerable to all but magic.
+1 for double S.D.C.
+1 for being able to bypass armor.
+1 for still inflicting damage to armor as well (this basically allows it to damage two things at once!).
+1 for being able to hurt beings vulnerable to silver.

10+2+1-1+2+4+4+1+1+1+1+1+1=28 points.

That's this set of entries. I'll try to be back soon with the last entry. Farewell and safe journeys for now.