How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

[flatline]

Set up a reward system such that hunting the bugs is sustainably profitable at a scale sufficient to offset the growth of the bug population...and you've won because eventually someone will get greedy and start harvesting the bugs FASTER than the bugs can repopulate.

So what would such a system look like?

I imagine the numbers involved are too big for any economy on Rifts Earth to simply fund out of pocket, but if an off-world market (say, Phase World) could be used to sell Xiticix weapons, materials, body parts, etc at a profit, then it could work.

What do the Xiticix have that has value to someone else? Tk rifles and melee weapons might have value as novelty items, but I don't see the market being big enough to sustainably handle millions or billions of such weapons. Are any of the Xiticix body parts valuable to anyone?

Discuss.

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

In our campaign, we had a magic shop in Dweomer, and a corresponding shop on the Palladium world.
We'd import alchemical items to Rifts Earth, and export Techno-Wizardry to Palladium.
We sold a lot of xiticix TK Rifles there, along with some other bug weapons. They might be heavy, but there are plenty of strong people on Palladium.
The rifles especially, since they have a lot better range and damage than a bow and arrow.

Might sell well on Wormwood as well.

There might be a market for dead bodies, for necromancers and such.

[flatline]

The Palladium world doesn't have a large enough economy to sink millions of TK rifles a year, but it's a start. A large enough operation to harvest millions of bugs per year will probably need to find several markets in order to sustain itself.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Geneticaly engineered virus that once deployed has a very short half life. Engineered to affect the Xit's specific alien biology and nothing else. (Or targeted virus or defoiliant that targets thee food they grow in their hives)

[Killer Cyborg]

The Palladium world doesn't have a large enough economy to sink millions of TK rifles a year, but it's a start. A large enough operation to harvest millions of bugs per year will probably need to find several markets in order to sustain itself.

What about Wormwood?
(I'm not entirely familiar with that setting)

Sure, the Three Galaxies might be a good market. Even as a novelty, it's such a huge market that there could be entire planets of people who might want them.

BtS and Heroes Unlimited might be able to absorb some of the rifles.

If they have anything of value to trade, you might try unloading some of the xiticix melee weapons to the Ants on Mars.
(I don't think they could use the rifles, since they're not psychic or magic.)

If you can find the original Mechanoid setting, there are psychics there. You might be able to make some deals.

After The Bomb might also be a good market, since many animals are psychic enough to use the weapons. I don't know if they could recharge them, but that might make for more future trade opportunities.

IF you could figure out a way to render xiticix chitin into MDC armor, there'd be a potentially really big market... but unlike the Martian bugs, I don't remember ever seeing any indication that xiticix chitin can be made into usable armor.

[flatline]

Geneticaly engineered virus that once deployed has a very short half life. Engineered to affect the Xit's specific alien biology and nothing else. (Or targeted virus or defoiliant that targets thee food they grow in their hives)

If it can be done and you have the know-how and resources to do it, that would be a viable strategy.

As a GM, how would you make that kind of campaign exciting for your players?

--flatline

[eliakon]

Geneticaly engineered virus that once deployed has a very short half life. Engineered to affect the Xit's specific alien biology and nothing else. (Or targeted virus or defoiliant that targets thee food they grow in their hives)

If it can be done and you have the know-how and resources to do it, that would be a viable strategy.

As a GM, how would you make that kind of campaign exciting for your players?

--flatline

I would have the party be hunting down the stragglers that turned out to be immune.
Or they could be busy looting/preventing looting
Or they could be involved in the dexenoforming/reteraforming operation
Or they could be involved in, basically the racial autopsy to find out what was up with them
Or of course they could be tasked with collecting specimens for the lab to make the weapon in the first place
Or maybe they need to smuggle the virus in and spray the queen with it...
Or...

[Nightmask]

Geneticaly engineered virus that once deployed has a very short half life. Engineered to affect the Xit's specific alien biology and nothing else. (Or targeted virus or defoiliant that targets thee food they grow in their hives)

If it can be done and you have the know-how and resources to do it, that would be a viable strategy.

As a GM, how would you make that kind of campaign exciting for your players?

--flatline

I would have the party be hunting down the stragglers that turned out to be immune.
Or they could be busy looting/preventing looting
Or they could be involved in the dexenoforming/reteraforming operation
Or they could be involved in, basically the racial autopsy to find out what was up with them
Or of course they could be tasked with collecting specimens for the lab to make the weapon in the first place
Or maybe they need to smuggle the virus in and spray the queen with it...
Or...

Or pretty much all of the above at different times in the campaign.

[eliakon]

Geneticaly engineered virus that once deployed has a very short half life. Engineered to affect the Xit's specific alien biology and nothing else. (Or targeted virus or defoiliant that targets thee food they grow in their hives)

If it can be done and you have the know-how and resources to do it, that would be a viable strategy.

As a GM, how would you make that kind of campaign exciting for your players?

--flatline

I would have the party be hunting down the stragglers that turned out to be immune.
Or they could be busy looting/preventing looting
Or they could be involved in the dexenoforming/reteraforming operation
Or they could be involved in, basically the racial autopsy to find out what was up with them
Or of course they could be tasked with collecting specimens for the lab to make the weapon in the first place
Or maybe they need to smuggle the virus in and spray the queen with it...
Or...

Or pretty much all of the above at different times in the campaign.

Yep. I imagine it could be a fun and exciting campaign...even if it ends up with hundreds of millions of giant killer bugs dying due to a tailor made, and much smaller and much deadlier bug.
mmmm the irony is delicious enough that I may have to add this to my future plans now.

[flatline]

Yep. I imagine it could be a fun and exciting campaign...even if it ends up with hundreds of millions of giant killer bugs dying due to a tailor made, and much smaller and much deadlier bug.
mmmm the irony is delicious enough that I may have to add this to my future plans now.

Perhaps I'm mean, but when they go on to hive #2, they'd discover that it's barely effective, if at all. Further research would show that hive #1 had a genetic weakness which made them vulnerable to the engineered disease. The nearest hives would not have that same weakness, but I'd throw them a bone and let a hive further away have the same weakness. They could go wipe out the vulnerable hive or, if they're more clever, find some way to help the vulnerable hive out-compete the other hives before using the disease again.

Or something like that. Of course, I don't have the book, so I don't actually know if hives compete against each other.

--flatline

[Bill]

What about Wormwood?
(I'm not entirely familiar with that setting)

Wormwood functions on a barter economy. They have no precious metals or minerals to trade and very little that the planet does produce remains durable once removed from it. Resin and angelhair (MDC fibers) are about it. Which is why they tend to engage in dimensional raiding for technology and commodities.

About the only ways they could be involved in the scheme would be to convince the human factions that the bugs are a good source of weapons and materials for the war against the Host or as a trade partner, using Worldgate to carry the products to other worlds.

I don't think the bugs are much easier prey than other raiding targets, but if you could get a trend going they might do it anyway. Black powder firearms were trendy, even though they can raid from the whole of space and time. Using Worldgate might attract attention from other parties entirely, which could be good or bad.

[Shark_Force]

IF you could figure out a way to render xiticix chitin into MDC armor, there'd be a potentially really big market... but unlike the Martian bugs, I don't remember ever seeing any indication that xiticix chitin can be made into usable armor.

pretty sure the xiticix book has a group of psi-stalkers with some necromancers that use russian bone magic helping out the tribe, who make use of xiticix chitin to make armour that looks a lot like a xiticix (mainly so they can have a better chance of hiding from xiticix patrols, i think).

i don't believe it's given any stats, and it's sort of a throwaway reference, but apparently it is possible.

that said, it might be a lot harder for people that can't graft dead body parts onto themselves, and the armour is probably fairly heavy.

i would think the most valuable things would be the diggers as live specimens (queens too, though that's much more dangerous if she gets free, but also more valuable because diggers only know the physical component while queens know the magical component). somehow or another, the xiticix have found a (somewhat limited) form of techno-wizardry that replaces expensive and rare gemstones with a quick-drying resin that is easy for them to produce. there are a lot of people who would *love* to rip those secrets out of their heads, with the splugorth probably being the biggest potential buyer if you're not picky about morality.

and it isn't like they're getting bad results out of their form of techno-wizardry either... for a regular TW to make a rifle as effective as the TK rifle would be expensive, requiring an uncomfortably large amount of either emeralds or diamonds for PPE storage, and the 4,000 foot range is almost unheard of.

so that's an option...

[HWalsh]

In the last campaign I ran after the CS had been all-but wiped out by the PCs getting their hands on a Macross Cannon, which they then obliterated Chi-Town, Lonestar, and 3 other Coalition Cities (including where they had identified military stockpiles)... The CS then fell to in-fighting and some parts were absorbed into Free Quebec... Their military was crippled then the FoM came out of the woodwork to deal the death blow.

The Xits were a problem. The cannon was good for targets on the surface, but beneath it, not so much. The PCs simply didn't have the firepower to deal with the problem. (Remember, in this case it was 5 guys and 1 crew that had laid waste to the Coalition.) When the game ended they were beginning Xit operations. They planned on doing the nerve gas trick.

The idea was to send a series of LRM missiles into the hive. To anger the bugs and get them swarming. Once they are swarming, fire the Macross Cannon. After the surface has been blasted clean set up, on the surface with drills. The next step was to drill holes in the surface, then pump poison gas into the tunnels. Keeping a heavy contingent of worker robots to man them. With the Macross Cannon sitting on the surface in case the Xits came out to play in a way that could not be managed by the surface defenders.

The game ended before they could finish phase 2. They managed to get the Xits to swarm and then take out the majority of the hive. (With 35-55% remaining, I rolled a d20 and added 34 to the total to determine it, I think it was around 42% remaining) With most of the warriors gone from being vaporized with the swarm. The poison gas could (I ruled) take out about 50% of the remaining hive leaving around 21% of the hive intact. I had ruled (at the time) that the hive could rebuild from 21% unless the players decided to drill new entrances into the hive, get in, and kill the queen and her brood.

So going on the numbers we know of now, that would start at around 200,000,000 bugs, then be reduced to 84,000,000, then be reduced to 42,000,000 bugs. That is still a HUGE number of bugs. The players had never detailed their plan beyond that point. Honestly I don't think they had the numbers to do it. This was only 1 of the hives though.

I do think, the CS, with its numbers if it didn't waste so many resources going after peaceful kingdoms like Tolkeen, could have done a similar strategy. Since the CS doesn't have a Macross Cannon, they could send a large group of Skelebots in, then strike the hive, to rile the swarm, then when the saturation hits a certain point, nuke the surface, send down teams, drill and pump nerve gas (since we know nerve gas works), then send in extermination groups through the tunnels to locate, neutralize, and terminate, the queen, her eggs, and any other young queens. Providing this didn't send the other hives after the CS somehow this would be a viable strategy that should work.

[ShadowLogan]

The Palladium world doesn't have a large enough economy to sink millions of TK rifles a year, but it's a start. A large enough operation to harvest millions of bugs per year will probably need to find several markets in order to sustain itself.

What about Wormwood?
(I'm not entirely familiar with that setting)

Sure, the Three Galaxies might be a good market. Even as a novelty, it's such a huge market that there could be entire planets of people who might want them.

BtS and Heroes Unlimited might be able to absorb some of the rifles.

If they have anything of value to trade, you might try unloading some of the xiticix melee weapons to the Ants on Mars.
(I don't think they could use the rifles, since they're not psychic or magic.)

If you can find the original Mechanoid setting, there are psychics there. You might be able to make some deals.

After The Bomb might also be a good market, since many animals are psychic enough to use the weapons. I don't know if they could recharge them, but that might make for more future trade opportunities.

IF you could figure out a way to render xiticix chitin into MDC armor, there'd be a potentially really big market... but unlike the Martian bugs, I don't remember ever seeing any indication that xiticix chitin can be made into usable armor.

Wouldn't Hades and Dyval also make attractive off world markets to off load, some, Xiticix hardware? Granted the people who are setting up the bounty system might not want to arm either of these "worlds", especially as a result of the Minion War. Still either party might be interested in acquiring the weapons (Demons and Devils might like getting personal, but we also know they like magic weapons and such...) either directly or through intermediaries to cover their presence.

[Alrik Vas]

Walsh, good job countering fascism with terrorism, first of all. I won't address the problems with that plan, but I will say this:

A Macross Canon wouldn't have trouble taking out a hive. The depth of the crater after the second shot would leave nothing left. No bugs would escape save whatever was hundred or so miles from the hive on the first shot, everything else would be trapped until the second volley but.

[Killer Cyborg]

Actually, unless I'm missing something, I think that the best overall selling bug weapon would be the Resin Spitter, because it does something that there'd be high demand for: it creates permanent MDC material out of nothing but PPE/ISP.
Specifically, it creates 100 MD worth of resin per shot, and can be used twice per melee round. That's 200 MDC worth of resin per melee, 800 MDC per hour, or 6400 MDC if you want to put in an 8-hour shift.
It can be dissolved by Diggers or by a special chemical that only the CS has managed to create, but other than that it's essentially MDC concrete. Set up some forms, and start blasting globs into them until the forms are complete, and you can make a MDC building.
Or make a conventional building--or even a sturdy tent--and just start coating it with globs like mega-damage stucco.
Make some forms, and you could probably get some crude armor or weapons out of the stuff as well.

[Alrik Vas]

Actually, unless I'm missing something, I think that the best overall selling bug weapon would be the Resin Spitter, because it does something that there'd be high demand for: it creates permanent MDC material out of nothing but PPE/ISP.
Specifically, it creates 100 MD worth of resin per shot, and can be used twice per melee round. That's 200 MDC worth of resin per melee, 800 MDC per hour, or 6400 MDC if you want to put in an 8-hour shift.
It can be dissolved by Diggers or by a special chemical that only the CS has managed to create, but other than that it's essentially MDC concrete. Set up some forms, and start blasting globs into them until the forms are complete, and you can make a MDC building.
Or make a conventional building--or even a sturdy tent--and just start coating it with globs like mega-damage stucco.
Make some forms, and you could probably get some crude armor or weapons out of the stuff as well.

Less mess to demo as well. Would make ley lines and Nexus points even more valuable as real estate.

[Mack]

1) Scout the hive via Astral Projection.
2) Teleport bombs (or even nukes) straight into the Queen's and eggs' chambers.
3) Repeat as needed.

It'll take a little time, but the bugs have no defense to it.

[Alrik Vas]

Why nuclear weapons? Gas is much better. If you're already using magic, go invisible and set up blockades at the exits they're stuck.

That way you don't have to deal with the rubble and you've got tons of bio mass for whatever tickles you.

[kaid]

Geneticaly engineered virus that once deployed has a very short half life. Engineered to affect the Xit's specific alien biology and nothing else. (Or targeted virus or defoiliant that targets thee food they grow in their hives)

Also curious if the various hell pit plagues from the minion war can effect xiticix. A few of those look like they could absolutly wreck xiticix.

[J_cobbers]

1) Scout the hive via Astral Projection.
2) Teleport bombs (or even nukes) straight into the Queen's and eggs' chambers.
3) Repeat as needed.

It'll take a little time, but the bugs have no defense to it.

Just remember that Astral traveler can be seen by other psychics, which would include almost all Xits: Queens, diggers, nannies, leapers, hunters and super warriors. Only regular warriors, larva and grubs lack those powers. Or if you consider the race to be supernatural, then they should all be able to see an Astral Traveler and attack with any appropriate psychic powers (Queens have psy-swords), and that silver cord makes such a great target!

[HWalsh]

Walsh, good job countering fascism with terrorism, first of all. I won't address the problems with that plan, but I will say this:

A Macross Canon wouldn't have trouble taking out a hive. The depth of the crater after the second shot would leave nothing left. No bugs would escape save whatever was hundred or so miles from the hive on the first shot, everything else would be trapped until the second volley but.

Extreme measures to destroy an extreme evil.

Though I think you're confusing the Macross's Cannon with a Macross Cannon. The Macross Cannons are smaller and weaker versions of the big one.

[Alrik Vas]

I don't really care how you decide things would go down, I come up with enough wacky world setting changes myself.

And I'm not really confusing them, I don't think. If all four beams strike, I thought it was roughly equal to a dimension/reflex cannon. In any case, it will make an enormous crater several miles deep and dozens of miles in diameter. It's going to utterly obliterate the hive if fired down at it, penetrate the earth below and trap everything below in a superheated coffin hotter than the sun.

Not very pretty.

If it can't do that, then it likely can't lay fortress cities to waste, either.

[Mack]

1) Scout the hive via Astral Projection.
2) Teleport bombs (or even nukes) straight into the Queen's and eggs' chambers.
3) Repeat as needed.

It'll take a little time, but the bugs have no defense to it.

Just remember that Astral traveler can be seen by other psychics, which would include almost all Xits: Queens, diggers, nannies, leapers, hunters and super warriors. Only regular warriors, larva and grubs lack those powers. Or if you consider the race to be supernatural, then they should all be able to see an Astral Traveler and attack with any appropriate psychic powers (Queens have psy-swords), and that silver cord makes such a great target!

All true, but one only has to scout the hive enough to guide the Teleport spell. One wouldn't need to hang around very long, and can pass through walls to avoid direct confrontations.

[HWalsh]

I don't really care how you decide things would go down, I come up with enough wacky world setting changes myself.

And I'm not really confusing them, I don't think. If all four beams strike, I thought it was roughly equal to a dimension/reflex cannon. In any case, it will make an enormous crater several miles deep and dozens of miles in diameter. It's going to utterly obliterate the hive if fired down at it, penetrate the earth below and trap everything below in a superheated coffin hotter than the sun.

Not very pretty.

If it can't do that, then it likely can't lay fortress cities to waste, either.

It can't aim down in atmosphere. It can aim at an angle but it's limited in tilt. So while it could obliterate things on and above the surface I don't think (or at least ruled at the time) that it couldn't aim straight down.

The effect is the same as a reflex cannon, but with a narrower area of effect with less distance.

Regardless, similar tactics could be used, by the canon CS. Rule the bugs up, glass the surface, use nerve gas, then invade tunnels.

[Shark_Force]

Actually, unless I'm missing something, I think that the best overall selling bug weapon would be the Resin Spitter, because it does something that there'd be high demand for: it creates permanent MDC material out of nothing but PPE/ISP.
Specifically, it creates 100 MD worth of resin per shot, and can be used twice per melee round. That's 200 MDC worth of resin per melee, 800 MDC per hour, or 6400 MDC if you want to put in an 8-hour shift.
It can be dissolved by Diggers or by a special chemical that only the CS has managed to create, but other than that it's essentially MDC concrete. Set up some forms, and start blasting globs into them until the forms are complete, and you can make a MDC building.
Or make a conventional building--or even a sturdy tent--and just start coating it with globs like mega-damage stucco.
Make some forms, and you could probably get some crude armor or weapons out of the stuff as well.

ummm... i think your math is a bit off.

it's 800 MDC per minute (not hour), 48,000 MDC per hour, 384,000 MDC per 8-hour shift.

of course, you'll probably also need to develop something like the digger's saliva and manipulating limbs to shape it somewhat to prevent air pockets and such from forming (but there are plenty of diggers you could use to experiment with to develop those materials - or if you're really not picky, you could capture a digger, harvest the saliva regularly, and chop off their limbs to use as tools), and find a way to generate that much PPE.

[Axelmania]

Se
What do the Xiticix have that has value to someone else? Tk rifles and melee weapons might have value as novelty items, but I don't see the market being big enough to sustainably handle millions or billions of such weapons. Are any of the Xiticix body parts valuable to anyone?

Bodies useful for necromancers.

Guns more than novelty. Rail gun range. Free reloads for mages and psychics (bullets or Eclip recharges cost you). More accurate and portable than a TK machine gun. Not sure if register as magic like TW or not.

Melee weapons don't need power source. Immune to electrokinetic deactivation/sensing or magnetism grab.or metal detectors. Stacks with supernatural strength. No audible hum.

Market is big enough to sell all. Will drive down prices of vibro weapons and TW rifles. Mass availability could lead to price lowering to move mercy. Low enough cost and people will buy.

[Pepsi Jedi]

In the last campaign I ran after the CS had been all-but wiped out by the PCs getting their hands on a Macross Cannon, which they then obliterated Chi-Town, Lonestar, and 3 other Coalition Cities (including where they had identified military stockpiles)... The CS then fell to in-fighting and some parts were absorbed into Free Quebec... Their military was crippled then the FoM came out of the woodwork to deal the death blow.

The Xits were a problem. The cannon was good for targets on the surface, but beneath it, not so much. The PCs simply didn't have the firepower to deal with the problem. (Remember, in this case it was 5 guys and 1 crew that had laid waste to the Coalition.) When the game ended they were beginning Xit operations. They planned on doing the nerve gas trick.

The idea was to send a series of LRM missiles into the hive. To anger the bugs and get them swarming. Once they are swarming, fire the Macross Cannon. After the surface has been blasted clean set up, on the surface with drills. The next step was to drill holes in the surface, then pump poison gas into the tunnels. Keeping a heavy contingent of worker robots to man them. With the Macross Cannon sitting on the surface in case the Xits came out to play in a way that could not be managed by the surface defenders.

The game ended before they could finish phase 2. They managed to get the Xits to swarm and then take out the majority of the hive. (With 35-55% remaining, I rolled a d20 and added 34 to the total to determine it, I think it was around 42% remaining) With most of the warriors gone from being vaporized with the swarm. The poison gas could (I ruled) take out about 50% of the remaining hive leaving around 21% of the hive intact. I had ruled (at the time) that the hive could rebuild from 21% unless the players decided to drill new entrances into the hive, get in, and kill the queen and her brood.

So going on the numbers we know of now, that would start at around 200,000,000 bugs, then be reduced to 84,000,000, then be reduced to 42,000,000 bugs. That is still a HUGE number of bugs. The players had never detailed their plan beyond that point. Honestly I don't think they had the numbers to do it. This was only 1 of the hives though.

I do think, the CS, with its numbers if it didn't waste so many resources going after peaceful kingdoms like Tolkeen, could have done a similar strategy. Since the CS doesn't have a Macross Cannon, they could send a large group of Skelebots in, then strike the hive, to rile the swarm, then when the saturation hits a certain point, nuke the surface, send down teams, drill and pump nerve gas (since we know nerve gas works), then send in extermination groups through the tunnels to locate, neutralize, and terminate, the queen, her eggs, and any other young queens. Providing this didn't send the other hives after the CS somehow this would be a viable strategy that should work.

lol You let your PCs have a Macross cannon.... in game.. and there were 'problems' --after-- that? LOL
So naturally they decided to kill millions of people. Both combatants and innocent civilians. BEFORE taking out .... Atlantis... or... The hell armies in china.. or the vampires in mexico or before taking out the over a billion bugs invading.

But then.. your six guys that had killed millions or tens of millions of people with... a Macross cannon.... "Didn't have the fire power to.... '

Wow.

I've heard some.... lets be nice and call them... 'interesting' stories in my day but that one's gotta be on up there in the ranks.

[HWalsh]

lol You let your PCs have a Macross cannon.... in game.. and there were 'problems' --after-- that? LOL
So naturally they decided to kill millions of people. Both combatants and innocent civilians. BEFORE taking out .... Atlantis... or... The hell armies in china.. or the vampires in mexico or before taking out the over a billion bugs invading.

But then.. your six guys that had killed millions or tens of millions of people with... a Macross cannon.... "Didn't have the fire power to.... '

Wow.

I've heard some.... lets be nice and call them... 'interesting' stories in my day but that one's gotta be on up there in the ranks.

Uh huh.

Who said it was a problem? It was nearing the end of a long game.

I don't see destroying the CS as a bad thing, at all. Should they have gotten the cannon? Meh probably not. Did it cause problems?

Not at all.

Did I expect them to seize the dangerous weapon of mass destruction as opposed to blow it up? No. My plan was for them to destroy it. They found another way.

Then used it. Which, granted, I didn't expect, but, meh wasn't bad.

The only way you can defeat the CS, with small numbers, is with very brutal tactics like that. They are too large and too powerful to be stopped in any other way without a comperable-sized army.

Under your own rules that you've espoused through multiple threads this makes the PC's not evil because from their perspective the CS was an imminent threat and those actions were the only way to remove that threat. Might, as you said, makes right in Rifts after all and they had the might.

If anything the CS was evil for not surrendering. They knew that the enemy had no other way to protect themselves from them other than use this weapon. Instead of surrendering the CS continued to posture. They sacrificed their own people when they should have scattered and fled when faced with overwhelming force.

[Alrik Vas]

lol You let your PCs have a Macross cannon.... in game.. and there were 'problems' --after-- that? LOL
So naturally they decided to kill millions of people. Both combatants and innocent civilians. BEFORE taking out .... Atlantis... or... The hell armies in china.. or the vampires in mexico or before taking out the over a billion bugs invading.

But then.. your six guys that had killed millions or tens of millions of people with... a Macross cannon.... "Didn't have the fire power to.... '

Wow.

I've heard some.... lets be nice and call them... 'interesting' stories in my day but that one's gotta be on up there in the ranks.

Uh huh.

Who said it was a problem? It was nearing the end of a long game.

I don't see destroying the CS as a bad thing, at all. Should they have gotten the cannon? Meh probably not. Did it cause problems?

Not at all.

Did I expect them to seize the dangerous weapon of mass destruction as opposed to blow it up? No. My plan was for them to destroy it. They found another way.

Then used it. Which, granted, I didn't expect, but, meh wasn't bad.

The only way you can defeat the CS, with small numbers, is with very brutal tactics like that. They are too large and too powerful to be stopped in any other way without a comperable-sized army.

Under your own rules that you've espoused through multiple threads this makes the PC's not evil because from their perspective the CS was an imminent threat and those actions were the only way to remove that threat. Might, as you said, makes right in Rifts after all and they had the might.

If anything the CS was evil for not surrendering. They knew that the enemy had no other way to protect themselves from them other than use this weapon. Instead of surrendering the CS continued to posture. They sacrificed their own people when they should have scattered and fled when faced with overwhelming force.

OK, this discussion deserves its own thread. The brilliance shining from the grand light of morality and double standards is blinding.

[HWalsh]

OK, this discussion deserves its own thread. The brilliance shining from the grand light of morality and double standards is blinding.

Not really. I'm not advocating what the PCs did either. The fact that none of them were good aligned is clear, what they did was quite evil. On the other hand, when someone defends the CS for doing the exact same thing it has to be pointed out. Though, I will be honest, the PCs logic wasn't wrong.

The Macross Cannons are alien technology, the CS would have gone after them if they had a chance to do so. Being in possession of a vehicle like that makes them a huge target (which is partially why I sort of expected them to blow it up when they had the chance) but they chose an alternate path.

Granted, this was back in my teen years, so I wasn't as seasoned as I am now at the age of 35 of how to anticipate the silly things PCs are likely to do. My thought process was that the players wouldn't use the weapon of mass destruction as they went after it because it was threatening their city. It never dawned on me, at the time, that they wouldn't take it out.

Thus, they removed the CS, which they saw as the greatest direct threat to them. 3 of the 5 were Deebees, 1 was a magic user, 1 was a Borg who lost his family to the CS. So, they had a chip on their shoulder, and found themselves in possession of the only chance they would ever get to remove the CS as a threat. Thus, in that world, at least... The Coalition States were destroyed when an enemy of the CS got their hands on a weapon of mass destruction that the CS had no method to defeat or counter.

The PCs did give them a chance to surrender. They were offered the chance of exiling Prosek and his family, by sending them into the Magic Zone. They chose to refuse to do that. The PCs obliterated one city, gave them another chance, they refused, then the PCs decided that enough was enough. Its a very logical sequence of events given how many horrible things the CS has done to many people.

[rem1093]

Isn't there some hook about finding a way to control some of the weapon sat.? As a great worrier once said ,"nuke the site from orbit. Its the only way to be sure."

Also has anybody thought about getting the hives to fight each other. Just sit back a watch, then when its over, kill whats left.

[HWalsh]

Isn't there some hook about finding a way to control some of the weapon sat.? As a great worrier once said ,"nuke the site from orbit. Its the only way to be sure."

Also has anybody thought about getting the hives to fight each other. Just sit back a watch, then when its over, kill whats left.

The Xits don't attack each other unless they are invading each other's territory. As far as weapons satellites, the idea is that nuking the site, even from orbit, would leave 35-55% of the bugs still alive.

[J_cobbers]

Doesn't a Macross cannon take a very large crew to operate and maintain? Are we talking SDF-1 or one of the Macross II orbital cannon jobs? Finally, were the PC's attacking from space? What about the gazillion killer satellites, didn't they attack the Macross cannon?

[Alrik Vas]

Even still, I think they decided on the worst outcome. I'll not discuss how their plan basically wouldn't work the way they tried it, the thread is no good for that, but murdering millions is, though along the lines of what the CS has done, far more heinous.

[HWalsh]

Doesn't a Macross cannon take a very large crew to operate and maintain? Are we talking SDF-1 or one of the Macross II orbital cannon jobs? Finally, were the PC's attacking from space? What about the gazillion killer satellites, didn't they attack the Macross cannon?

One of the orbital/ship cannons. No, was in atmosphere, which was why they couldn't fire downward. It was like 15 years ago, so I am trying to remember the full set up. I think it rifted in, in atmosphere, and had been seized. The crew were being controlled by a "force" (as you know, hand wavy phlebotinum) that was the big bad. The PCs managed to board it, and instead of detonating the reactor (like they had been told would destroy it) they managed to actually confront the presence, and killed it. This freed the crew, which having no way to get home... Yadda yadda. Regardless. The details are really pointless, it was just used as the jumping off point to explain the strats they used, and how those same strats could be used by the CS to greatly limit the danger in taking out a bug hive.

[J_cobbers]

Doesn't a Macross cannon take a very large crew to operate and maintain? Are we talking SDF-1 or one of the Macross II orbital cannon jobs? Finally, were the PC's attacking from space? What about the gazillion killer satellites, didn't they attack the Macross cannon?

One of the orbital/ship cannons. No, was in atmosphere, which was why they couldn't fire downward. It was like 15 years ago, so I am trying to remember the full set up. I think it rifted in, in atmosphere, and had been seized. The crew were being controlled by a "force" (as you know, hand wavy phlebotinum) that was the big bad. The PCs managed to board it, and instead of detonating the reactor (like they had been told would destroy it) they managed to actually confront the presence, and killed it. This freed the crew, which having no way to get home... Yadda yadda. Regardless. The details are really pointless, it was just used as the jumping off point to explain the strats they used, and how those same strats could be used by the CS to greatly limit the danger in taking out a bug hive.

Ok makes sense. Yeah that sounds about like how things would go in for a campaign back in my teens too. Look we got a super weapon! Let's go kill the CS and the bugs, cause they're the bad guys and or we don't like them!

[Pepsi Jedi]

Doesn't a Macross cannon take a very large crew to operate and maintain? Are we talking SDF-1 or one of the Macross II orbital cannon jobs? Finally, were the PC's attacking from space? What about the gazillion killer satellites, didn't they attack the Macross cannon?

One of the orbital/ship cannons. No, was in atmosphere, which was why they couldn't fire downward. It was like 15 years ago, so I am trying to remember the full set up. I think it rifted in, in atmosphere, and had been seized. The crew were being controlled by a "force" (as you know, hand wavy phlebotinum) that was the big bad. The PCs managed to board it, and instead of detonating the reactor (like they had been told would destroy it) they managed to actually confront the presence, and killed it. This freed the crew, which having no way to get home... Yadda yadda. Regardless. The details are really pointless, it was just used as the jumping off point to explain the strats they used, and how those same strats could be used by the CS to greatly limit the danger in taking out a bug hive.

It's absurd in a dozen different ways that defy even made up explination. lol

If the SDF was with in sight range to the CS, the CS WOULD have attacked it with everything they had, including nukes. A team of 6 couldn't have done much to stop them.

If it was out of sight profile, how did they aim? There's no GPS or anything with CS cities marked on it. No satalites that the SDF could have used.

Heck how did they even figure out how to turn it on? I doubt just anone can walk onto the bridge and boot up the computers. I'm hoping there's at least a password on the computer stations a bit more complex than me signing into Gmail.

Then how'd they figure out how to use the canon? Did it have painted instructions on the wall, and again, wouldn't you need very high level access codes to even try?

All in all, with out the veritechs and other things to protect it in close, the CS could target the bridge and lay into it, couldn't they?

(( I'll note I didn't just dream all this up but it came up in a conversation with someone else when talking about the absurdity of letting a player group just have the SDF to conduct genocide on a planet, without any repercussions.))

[HWalsh]

Doesn't a Macross cannon take a very large crew to operate and maintain? Are we talking SDF-1 or one of the Macross II orbital cannon jobs? Finally, were the PC's attacking from space? What about the gazillion killer satellites, didn't they attack the Macross cannon?

One of the orbital/ship cannons. No, was in atmosphere, which was why they couldn't fire downward. It was like 15 years ago, so I am trying to remember the full set up. I think it rifted in, in atmosphere, and had been seized. The crew were being controlled by a "force" (as you know, hand wavy phlebotinum) that was the big bad. The PCs managed to board it, and instead of detonating the reactor (like they had been told would destroy it) they managed to actually confront the presence, and killed it. This freed the crew, which having no way to get home... Yadda yadda. Regardless. The details are really pointless, it was just used as the jumping off point to explain the strats they used, and how those same strats could be used by the CS to greatly limit the danger in taking out a bug hive.

Ok makes sense. Yeah that sounds about like how things would go in for a campaign back in my teens too. Look we got a super weapon! Let's go kill the CS and the bugs, cause they're the bad guys and or we don't like them!

Its not just a "games from teens" thing (and yeah it was closer to 20 years ago since I was 17, I am 35 now so. 18 years? Darn I am old.) there are PLENTY of characters who would do this same thing now. It depends on how much of a threat they see the CS and if they think that the CS has to be stopped. My current character would consider a similar tactic if it was available as he feels that the CS is too large of a threat and too much of an evil force. He'd be unlikely to straight obliterate CS cities but he'd absolutely use a weapon like that, if he had it, to attempt to cripple them militarily. More likely to use it to take out pinpoint targets though, providing he knew about them, like the Lonestar complex or CS factories.

If it came to it, he'd consider taking a shot at Chi-Town if he thinks it would kill Prosek and his spawn.

The character utterly despises the CS and sees them as a stain on the planet. While there may be good people there, they are good people caught in the grip of evil.

I, the player, feel that the CS has absolutely no redeeming quality aside from serving as a truly despicable villain and to serve as a way to show that even good people can be fooled and tricked into doing the bidding of evil.

[HWalsh]

Doesn't a Macross cannon take a very large crew to operate and maintain? Are we talking SDF-1 or one of the Macross II orbital cannon jobs? Finally, were the PC's attacking from space? What about the gazillion killer satellites, didn't they attack the Macross cannon?

One of the orbital/ship cannons. No, was in atmosphere, which was why they couldn't fire downward. It was like 15 years ago, so I am trying to remember the full set up. I think it rifted in, in atmosphere, and had been seized. The crew were being controlled by a "force" (as you know, hand wavy phlebotinum) that was the big bad. The PCs managed to board it, and instead of detonating the reactor (like they had been told would destroy it) they managed to actually confront the presence, and killed it. This freed the crew, which having no way to get home... Yadda yadda. Regardless. The details are really pointless, it was just used as the jumping off point to explain the strats they used, and how those same strats could be used by the CS to greatly limit the danger in taking out a bug hive.

It's absurd in a dozen different ways that defy even made up explination. lol

If the SDF was with in sight range to the CS, the CS WOULD have attacked it with everything they had, including nukes. A team of 6 couldn't have done much to stop them.

If it was out of sight profile, how did they aim? There's no GPS or anything with CS cities marked on it. No satalites that the SDF could have used.

Heck how did they even figure out how to turn it on? I doubt just anone can walk onto the bridge and boot up the computers. I'm hoping there's at least a password on the computer stations a bit more complex than me signing into Gmail.

Then how'd they figure out how to use the canon? Did it have painted instructions on the wall, and again, wouldn't you need very high level access codes to even try?

All in all, with out the veritechs and other things to protect it in close, the CS could target the bridge and lay into it, couldn't they?

(( I'll note I didn't just dream all this up but it came up in a conversation with someone else when talking about the absurdity of letting a player group just have the SDF to conduct genocide on a planet, without any repercussions.))

Pepsi, Macross Cannons are not the SDF-1.

They are much, much, muuuuch smaller.

The ship had its crew. Who knew how to use it. Who were grateful to the players.

When the players laid out the kinds of things the CS did, this was pre-Tolkeen, the Macross Cannon's crew pretty much went, "Oh. Nazis. Yes, Nazis are evil." Coupled this by a crew who had no idea where they were, but everyone just had their lives saved, and were also all told that the CS would kill all of them the first chance they got... Which is true... You can see why they had no problem helping.

[Axelmania]

Everyone thinking Prosek sleeps in Chi-Town and not a Psi-Bat Astral Lord's domain where MD doesn't exist. If Nightbane made it here then Astral Lords probably have too.

Some Vanguard probably snuck in and permanence impervious to energy with mystic invisibility all of the walls of Prosek's inner sanctum.

[eliakon]

Unlikely in my game? Probably in most cases.
Have I had players do wacky stuff (or been the player that did the wackiness) that was perfectly logical, in the game it came from, but after the fact you sit there and go
"Ummm, did you just drop a comet on Austrailia?"
"Yep"
"And the GM let you"
"Yep"
"And this was the least bad option"
"yep"
"Ooookkkaay then"
(been in that game, its a long story, and yeah its a "well it made sense at the time" sort of thing)

[Blue_Lion]

magical
Step 1 scout a hive.
Step 2 gather detailed info on queens and hatchers.
Step 3 set up strong air and ground defense near the hives.
Step 4 teleport small nuke bombardments to all queens and hatcherers.
Step 5 sweep and clear for surviving eggs and queens.

Tech.
1 develop infiltrator bots similar to NGs gargoyle line.
2 scout the hive
3 locate all queens and hatcheries
4 set up near by strong ground and air defense to whittle down the swarm.
5 have the infiltrators bots blow all queens and hatcheries
6 sweep and clear for surviving queens and hatcheries.


there may be billions total but most hives will have much lower numbers and if you remove all queens they can not replace losses.

[guardiandashi]

talking about the Macross cannons and stuff I know I had a Character that totally COULD and likely would (under some circumstances) take out the coalition. She likely wouldn't go all Macross cannon, on them but she absolutely COULD as she has access to reflex weaponry including syncro cannons (the howitzer sized 50 ft wide 2 mile beam one) I honestly don't remember if she ever had a full up reflex cannon but I am sure that if she really wanted to she could build one.

Honestly the NASTIEST thing she can pull out is a modified star wars Star Destroyer, that she built, it has some of the standard turbo lasers, and ion cannons, that a star destroyer "should have" in addition it has a number of the turbolasers removed and replaced with pulse phasers like the defiant from DS9 had, 3 full 360 phaser arrays like the ones on a galaxy Class, 10 forward firing and 4 rear firing photon torpedo launchers (like the galaxy class has) with a 500 torpedo magazine for each tube. in addition it can fire a salvo of 10 "ghost rider" equivalent missiles with both laser head, and 200+ megaton nukes (david webers honorverse) and it carries 10 SLAMS (david webers path of the fury)

in a way I would love to see the coalitions reaction if she fired a slam or a "heavy" HVW into Chi town, or one of the Xiticix hives, and considering the ship was intended to go toe to toe with a Borg Cube and win... the stuff in orbit wouldn't even bother the shields.

[flatline]

magical
Step 1 scout a hive.
Step 2 gather detailed info on queens and hatchers.
Step 3 set up strong air and ground defense near the hives.
Step 4 teleport small nuke bombardments to all queens and hatcherers.
Step 5 sweep and clear for surviving eggs and queens.

As I recall, Teleport:Lesser has a weight limit of 50lbs.
What books give stats for nukes that are less than 50lbs?

Tech.
1 develop infiltrator bots similar to NGs gargoyle line.
2 scout the hive
3 locate all queens and hatcheries
4 set up near by strong ground and air defense to whittle down the swarm.
5 have the infiltrators bots blow all queens and hatcheries
6 sweep and clear for surviving queens and hatcheries.

I don't have either of the Triax books. Could you please give a brief summary of an infiltrator bot?

Thanks!

--flatline

[Pepsi Jedi]

Doesn't a Macross cannon take a very large crew to operate and maintain? Are we talking SDF-1 or one of the Macross II orbital cannon jobs? Finally, were the PC's attacking from space? What about the gazillion killer satellites, didn't they attack the Macross cannon?

One of the orbital/ship cannons. No, was in atmosphere, which was why they couldn't fire downward. It was like 15 years ago, so I am trying to remember the full set up. I think it rifted in, in atmosphere, and had been seized. The crew were being controlled by a "force" (as you know, hand wavy phlebotinum) that was the big bad. The PCs managed to board it, and instead of detonating the reactor (like they had been told would destroy it) they managed to actually confront the presence, and killed it. This freed the crew, which having no way to get home... Yadda yadda. Regardless. The details are really pointless, it was just used as the jumping off point to explain the strats they used, and how those same strats could be used by the CS to greatly limit the danger in taking out a bug hive.

It's absurd in a dozen different ways that defy even made up explination. lol

If the SDF was with in sight range to the CS, the CS WOULD have attacked it with everything they had, including nukes. A team of 6 couldn't have done much to stop them.

If it was out of sight profile, how did they aim? There's no GPS or anything with CS cities marked on it. No satalites that the SDF could have used.

Heck how did they even figure out how to turn it on? I doubt just anone can walk onto the bridge and boot up the computers. I'm hoping there's at least a password on the computer stations a bit more complex than me signing into Gmail.

Then how'd they figure out how to use the canon? Did it have painted instructions on the wall, and again, wouldn't you need very high level access codes to even try?

All in all, with out the veritechs and other things to protect it in close, the CS could target the bridge and lay into it, couldn't they?

(( I'll note I didn't just dream all this up but it came up in a conversation with someone else when talking about the absurdity of letting a player group just have the SDF to conduct genocide on a planet, without any repercussions.))

Pepsi, Macross Cannons are not the SDF-1.

They are much, much, muuuuch smaller.

The ship had its crew. Who knew how to use it. Who were grateful to the players.

When the players laid out the kinds of things the CS did, this was pre-Tolkeen, the Macross Cannon's crew pretty much went, "Oh. Nazis. Yes, Nazis are evil." Coupled this by a crew who had no idea where they were, but everyone just had their lives saved, and were also all told that the CS would kill all of them the first chance they got... Which is true... You can see why they had no problem helping.

So the ships crew gave over one of the most powerful weapons in the palladium universe to 6 teen aged strangers out of gratitude and fired it at what ever target they were told to, killing tens of millions of innocent people. And they did this on 6 guy's words?

Wow..... yep. Sounds like something a 13 year old would dream up and think cool.

I mean I know alot of military personel and they'd just take the word of 6 strangers and open up with weapons of mass destruction based on stranger's words killing tens of millions of humans.... wait. No... not so much.... not at all.

But when you're 12 or 13 I'm sure it sounds alot better.

[Pepsi Jedi]

As a note on the teleportaiton it's usage is addressed in the new book. Not knowing where to teleport makes the tactic pretty much impossible.

[jaymz]

It is good to see the reasons for the reputation that rifts has in the gaming community in general, a reputation i constantly have to fight and argue against, is alive and well

[Mech-Viper Prime]

It is good to see the reasons for the reputation that rifts has in the gaming community in general, a reputation i constantly have to fight and argue against, is alive and well

It will never die, never , never. No matter what.

[Mack]

As a note on the teleportaiton it's usage is addressed in the new book. Not knowing where to teleport makes the tactic pretty much impossible.

Which new book?

And that's what Astral Projection is for.