Forums of the Megaverse®

I read in the South America book that werepanthers/werejaguars get hit points but i don't see anything about sdc do I use the ultimate rulebook and give her similar sdc as a human gets?

Shadowdragon7 wrote:I read in the South America book that werepanthers/werejaguars get hit points but i don't see anything about sdc do I use the ultimate rulebook and give her similar sdc as a human gets?

No. Werebeasts don't have SDC, just HP.

The Beast wrote:

Shadowdragon7 wrote:I read in the South America book that werepanthers/werejaguars get hit points but i don't see anything about sdc do I use the ultimate rulebook and give her similar sdc as a human gets?

No. Werebeasts don't have SDC, just HP.

thanks

specifically, werecreatures have what is called 'limited invulnerability', meaning that they do not take damage from most attacks at all. they are only vulnerable to a few types (magic, psionics, silver, mainly) and when hit by attacks of those types, they take the damage directly to their hit points.

see rifts conversion book (1) approximately pg 191 (at least in my copy) werebeasts, werewolf

Why Wear-creatures, Vampires, and other undead use HP in Rifts, I have no idea. They should just have "Undead Points" because they don't work like regular HP, and they dont work like MDC. By calling it HP, but making it work differently, is just confusing.

Kagashi wrote:Why Wear-creatures, Vampires, and other undead use HP in Rifts, I have no idea. They should just have "Undead Points" because they don't work like regular HP, and they dont work like MDC. By calling it HP, but making it work differently, is just confusing.

well in general it does work exactly like HP its just that due to their "special natures" they also have a "limited invulnerability" that takes the place of a "normal creatures" sdc.

in the case of a were what happens is say its charging an army confident in its "invulnerability" (medeval army) the archers bombard it and the general area its in and it gets hit by dozens of arrows, but because they are NOT silver they just get shoved/yanked out and it heals instantly (no effective damage) it runs up and attacks the melee fighters and unless they have weapons that will hurt it (unlikely) the same thing happens as it rampages through killing everyone in reach.

Modern army basically the same scenario all the bullets unless they can bypass its limited invulnerability it just shrugs them off. when the solders shoot it with the grenade launcher, Law or similar explosives it gets blown through the air and knocked down, but it just picks itself up and proceeds...

MDC weapons in general do the same thing as the modern ones, with the main difference being that a lot more of them cause knockdown effects.

Kagashi wrote:Why Wear-creatures, Vampires, and other undead use HP in Rifts, I have no idea. They should just have "Undead Points" because they don't work like regular HP, and they dont work like MDC. By calling it HP, but making it work differently, is just confusing.

Werebeasts aren't undead. Your proposal would be just as confusing.

The Beast wrote:

Kagashi wrote:Why Wear-creatures, Vampires, and other undead use HP in Rifts, I have no idea. They should just have "Undead Points" because they don't work like regular HP, and they dont work like MDC. By calling it HP, but making it work differently, is just confusing.

Werebeasts aren't undead. Your proposal would be just as confusing.

Their game mechanic is the same. Perhaps I should have just said "Were-creatures, Vampires and other undead..." (sans second comma). Regardless, under the current rules they have "HP", but its not HP, and its not MDC either. Call it something else. Call it "Obama points" or "Not Hit Points"...what you call it, is irrelevant, just should be clarified better as something other than HP or MDC.

Kagashi wrote:Why Wear-creatures, Vampires, and other undead use HP in Rifts, I have no idea. They should just have "Undead Points" because they don't work like regular HP, and they dont work like MDC. By calling it HP, but making it work differently, is just confusing.

Hit points are a hold over from D&D where all the creatures and people in that game have Hit Points. And the undead&dead have HP just keeping it simple.

Kagashi wrote:

The Beast wrote:

Kagashi wrote:Why Wear-creatures, Vampires, and other undead use HP in Rifts, I have no idea. They should just have "Undead Points" because they don't work like regular HP, and they dont work like MDC. By calling it HP, but making it work differently, is just confusing.

Werebeasts aren't undead. Your proposal would be just as confusing.

Their game mechanic is the same. Perhaps I should have just said "Were-creatures, Vampires and other undead..." (sans second comma). Regardless, under the current rules they have "HP", but its not HP, and its not MDC either. Call it something else. Call it "Obama points" or "Not Hit Points"...what you call it, is irrelevant, just should be clarified better as something other than HP or MDC.

How are they different than HP though?
They are vulnerable to 'direct to HP' attacks
Each HP is used up in a 1:1 ratio when they take damage
They just have some spiffy defenses that make it harder to get at those HP...but when you DO get at them, they are just like anyone else's HP.

eliakon wrote:

Kagashi wrote:

The Beast wrote:

Kagashi wrote:Why Wear-creatures, Vampires, and other undead use HP in Rifts, I have no idea. They should just have "Undead Points" because they don't work like regular HP, and they dont work like MDC. By calling it HP, but making it work differently, is just confusing.

Werebeasts aren't undead. Your proposal would be just as confusing.

Their game mechanic is the same. Perhaps I should have just said "Were-creatures, Vampires and other undead..." (sans second comma). Regardless, under the current rules they have "HP", but its not HP, and its not MDC either. Call it something else. Call it "Obama points" or "Not Hit Points"...what you call it, is irrelevant, just should be clarified better as something other than HP or MDC.

How are they different than HP though?
They are vulnerable to 'direct to HP' attacks
Each HP is used up in a 1:1 ratio when they take damage
They just have some spiffy defenses that make it harder to get at those HP...but when you DO get at them, they are just like anyone else's HP.

They're like the HP and SDC of those Phase-powered characters, as the natural phased state causes all attacks to 'sync up' with the damage capacity style you have. So whether Mega-damage or regular damage is all deals just regular damage to their SDC and HP. So creatures like vampire and werewolves their special invulnerability basically means that whatever damage can get through their protection is scaled to always do HP damage (so magical mega-damage dealing weapons don't get to vaporize vampires or werewolves in a single shot).

Nightmask wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Kagashi wrote:

The Beast wrote:

Kagashi wrote:Why Wear-creatures, Vampires, and other undead use HP in Rifts, I have no idea. They should just have "Undead Points" because they don't work like regular HP, and they dont work like MDC. By calling it HP, but making it work differently, is just confusing.

Werebeasts aren't undead. Your proposal would be just as confusing.

Their game mechanic is the same. Perhaps I should have just said "Were-creatures, Vampires and other undead..." (sans second comma). Regardless, under the current rules they have "HP", but its not HP, and its not MDC either. Call it something else. Call it "Obama points" or "Not Hit Points"...what you call it, is irrelevant, just should be clarified better as something other than HP or MDC.

How are they different than HP though?
They are vulnerable to 'direct to HP' attacks
Each HP is used up in a 1:1 ratio when they take damage
They just have some spiffy defenses that make it harder to get at those HP...but when you DO get at them, they are just like anyone else's HP.

They're like the HP and SDC of those Phase-powered characters, as the natural phased state causes all attacks to 'sync up' with the damage capacity style you have. So whether Mega-damage or regular damage is all deals just regular damage to their SDC and HP. So creatures like vampire and werewolves their special invulnerability basically means that whatever damage can get through their protection is scaled to always do HP damage (so magical mega-damage dealing weapons don't get to vaporize vampires or werewolves in a single shot).

Correct. So..."not HP". Its something else.

Kagashi wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Kagashi wrote:

The Beast wrote:Werebeasts aren't undead. Your proposal would be just as confusing.

Their game mechanic is the same. Perhaps I should have just said "Were-creatures, Vampires and other undead..." (sans second comma). Regardless, under the current rules they have "HP", but its not HP, and its not MDC either. Call it something else. Call it "Obama points" or "Not Hit Points"...what you call it, is irrelevant, just should be clarified better as something other than HP or MDC.

How are they different than HP though?
They are vulnerable to 'direct to HP' attacks
Each HP is used up in a 1:1 ratio when they take damage
They just have some spiffy defenses that make it harder to get at those HP...but when you DO get at them, they are just like anyone else's HP.

They're like the HP and SDC of those Phase-powered characters, as the natural phased state causes all attacks to 'sync up' with the damage capacity style you have. So whether Mega-damage or regular damage is all deals just regular damage to their SDC and HP. So creatures like vampire and werewolves their special invulnerability basically means that whatever damage can get through their protection is scaled to always do HP damage (so magical mega-damage dealing weapons don't get to vaporize vampires or werewolves in a single shot).

Correct. So..."not HP". Its something else.

Well no, they're still HP it's their special invulnerability that's converting incoming damage into HP damage. Just as the SDC and HP of those Phase characters is still SDC and HP rather than 'something else'.

If it were truly HP, MDC should vape the being as you said previously.

Rather, it takes all damage, no matter the source, and treats it as if it were the same level of destruction (if the trigger qualifies as being able to damage it). Its not HP, but its called HP.

Its just like AR. There are different types of AR, but they all work differently. Its confusing and they should have different names to more clearly categorize them.

There is Vehicular AR, Body Armor AR, and Natural AR; each working differently, but all just called "AR" with their definitions spread out in odd places not only in the main core books of each respective game, but even among various source books and in various games.

Yet Palladium just calls it all "AR". It should be better communicated which is which. Same thing here with "Undead/Were HP". Its not HP, its something else. This category should cover Were-creatures, Vampires, Palladium Undead, Zombies, Mummies, and Animated Dead/Skeletons.

Why? Because for years players vs GMs vs other GMs have different ideas of how this is supposed to work and when to apply the rule and Palladium simply isnt clear on it. Ive seen people think Animate and Control Dead is a waste of a spell cause any Joe Blow with a Wilks laser pistol can plow right through the magical attack in less than one melee round...all because the spell just says..."HP". Some people say it is literally HP. Others say its "undead HP". And both camps are "right".

Kagashi wrote:If it were truly HP, MDC should vape the being as you said previously.

Rather, it takes all damage, no matter the source, and treats it as if it were the same level of destruction (if the trigger qualifies as being able to damage it). Its not HP, but its called HP.

Its just like AR. There are different types of AR, but they all work differently. Its confusing and they should have different names to more clearly categorize them.

There is Vehicular AR, Body Armor AR, and Natural AR; each working differently, but all just called "AR" with their definitions spread out in odd places not only in the main core books of each respective game, but even among various source books and in various games.

Yet Palladium just calls it all "AR". It should be better communicated which is which. Same thing here with "Undead/Were HP". Its not HP, its something else. This category should cover Were-creatures, Vampires, Palladium Undead, Zombies, Mummies, and Animated Dead/Skeletons.

Why? Because for years players vs GMs vs other GMs have different ideas of how this is supposed to work and when to apply the rule and Palladium simply isnt clear on it. Ive seen people think Animate and Control Dead is a waste of a spell cause any Joe Blow with a Wilks laser pistol can plow right through the magical attack in less than one melee round...all because the spell just says..."HP". Some people say it is literally HP. Others say its "undead HP". And both camps are "right".

Except it truly is HP, just because a power the creature possesses converts damage down to qualifying as HP damage doesn't mean they don't have HP but 'something else kind of like HP but not really'. They have HP and they have a power that makes whatever damage it can't block into HP damage. Just as you don't call it 'kind of like mega-damage but not really' when someone has a power that lets an SDC/HP damage weapon deal mega-damage because it is mega-damage.

Kagashi wrote:If it were truly HP, MDC should vape the being as you said previously.

Rather, it takes all damage, no matter the source, and treats it as if it were the same level of destruction (if the trigger qualifies as being able to damage it). Its not HP, but its called HP.

Its just like AR. There are different types of AR, but they all work differently. Its confusing and they should have different names to more clearly categorize them.

There is Vehicular AR, Body Armor AR, and Natural AR; each working differently, but all just called "AR" with their definitions spread out in odd places not only in the main core books of each respective game, but even among various source books and in various games.

Yet Palladium just calls it all "AR". It should be better communicated which is which. Same thing here with "Undead/Were HP". Its not HP, its something else. This category should cover Were-creatures, Vampires, Palladium Undead, Zombies, Mummies, and Animated Dead/Skeletons.

Why? Because for years players vs GMs vs other GMs have different ideas of how this is supposed to work and when to apply the rule and Palladium simply isnt clear on it. Ive seen people think Animate and Control Dead is a waste of a spell cause any Joe Blow with a Wilks laser pistol can plow right through the magical attack in less than one melee round...all because the spell just says..."HP". Some people say it is literally HP. Others say its "undead HP". And both camps are "right".

Does the spell Lifeward change my mages hit points then into something else? Because suddenly my hit poits now take 1:1 damage from MD and 1:1 damage from SD attacks. Did that mean that my hit points changed, or does that mean that my damage resistance changed.
I would say that my defenses to damage change (in that damage to me is modified by my defense), but there was no change to my fundamental durability (hit points are still hit points)
I see no reason to make up a new name for something that has no actual difference. Its like defining if humans have 'red hit points' or 'blue hit points' There is no distinction at all between them, and so any labels are just pointless. Hit points are Hit Points. They all have the exact same value. Now some things have a second, unrelated, power (say Were-Invulnerability, Vampiric-Invulnerability, A super power, a spell, what ever) that modifies damage done first, before it is applied to those hit points. But once that modification is done, the actual hit points them selves are no different.


And the AR thing is a false analogy. AR with no modifiers is just that Armor Rating. When something uses a different rule it is called either Natural Armor Rating, or Vehicular Armor Rating. Claiming that they are used interchangeably would be like claiming that SDC and MDC are the same since they are both Damage Capacity.

And for what its worth I am in the camp that says Animate Dead does exactly what it says it does. No more, no less.
Since it doesn't explicitly say that they get a damage reduction (like is spelled out explicitly for Prometheans, Vampires, Werebeasts, Lifeward, et multiple cetera) then there is no damage reduction. So yes, your Wilks pistol will one shot an animated dead (unless that body is in armor of course)

Considering the were-jags all uniquely are astral projectors, there is no SDC to add to their HP... although do they explicitly not get SDC from physical skills or something?

Since HP converts to Astral SDC, I am wondering how/if their invulnerability works on the astral plane... like their vulnerabilities allow HP to be damaged if it's silver or whatev but what if there is no longer HP to damage... or can silver even truly exist in the astral?

Same concern with vamps who can go astral too, possible with former-mage secondaries.

I would say that they do not have that same invulnerability on the astral; their use of astral projection is no different than anyone else's, and the body's strengths and invulnerabilities don't mean much on the astral.