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Hello! Greetings!

I'm pretty much a new convert to Palladium Fantasy. I have a question:

- How far can a character move in combat?

The only reference I have is the Spd stat mentioning that Spd x 20 is yards/metres per minute. Does that make movement Spd x 5 per round? How is that phased per "attack"? Confused.

Can you help?

20x the speed attribute is the distance in yards a character can cover in one minute.

Now a full melee (All the actions for all characters) lasts 15 seconds.
Most GMs break down maps in feet and not yards. So lets just assume we have an average character with a SPD of 10

Lets also assume they aren't encumbered, it's a flat open field with nothing barring their way.

That's 200 yards the character can cover in one minute. (2 American Football fields.) Or 600 feet per minute.
Now if we want to know how far they can get using all of their actions for a melle we divide that by 4 (4 Initiative rolls in a minute.)

So if a character with a speed of 10 runs flat out they can get 150 ft. in 15 seconds. (From the end zone to a 50 yard line in the NFL)

To determine the distance per action we have to divide this by the number of actions the character has. So lets say you are playing a wizard with 3 actions. He can cover 50 feet per action. A warrior with 5 actions will be able to cover 30ft per action.

So the ultimate formula for determining the distance per action is as follows

SPD x20 = Yards Per Min
YPM x3 = Feet Per Min (3 ft per yard)
FPM/4 = Distance Per Melee (4 Melees lasting 15 seconds each in a minute)
DPM/Number of Character Actions = Feet per action.

Hope this helps!

Thanks - although that's an awfully complicated calculation to have to make.

UbiquitousRat wrote:Thanks - although that's an awfully complicated calculation to have to make.

Yeah it is not a very quick and easy way to determine things.. Keep in mind this is assuming it's an open and clear area and the character is assumed to not be burdened with lots of gear/weight.

So while that might be the maximum keep in mind that conditions will vary and the GM may rule you are moving slower due to the amount of weight you are carrying.

Think of it this way. If you are on foot it's sometimes quicker to walk around a mountain than to hike over it. Yes the shortest distance between two points is a strait line but that doesn't necessarily mean it's the quickest route. Another way to look at it is if you have to get to the other side of a modern city. You can drive through the city in a strait line, but you will have to deal with more traffic, stops and what not.. Alternately it might be quicker to hop on the highway where it's open road and you can just get in the fast lane and do 75 MPH nonstop until you get where you are going.

Actually, it's more and less complicated than that.

In Palladium's system movement isn't directly married to actions. You have to remember that if you have 2 characters, each with a speed of 10, but one has 6 actions and the other has 4 and you use the formula mentioned, the round robin will stagger them, but this is physically impossible, as they move the same speed.

Sure, in the end they distance will have been the same, but for the purpose of "who gets there first in the combat round" it will almost always be the guy with the lower APM.

Though if you want to use that formula, i would address movment on the turn of the person with the lowest attacks per melee to determine where everyone is.

If you'd rather do it a different way, make movement abstract and don't use a map.

Wouldn't a simpler formula for feet-per-round be Spd x15?

I'd also like to think that you could move and then strike in a single action, so maybe some flex is needed in what you can do in an action. Or am I being too generous?

Years ago when I entertained the idea of doing a new version of the RIFTS Game Master Screens I started with THIS page. I've used it ever since in character creation to keep things moving quickly.

On it I've collected all of the attribute information pre-RUE.. While the MD strength chart is of no use to a Palladium Fantasy game, the info on the speed attribute should help you.

Also, I address movement in the quick combat rules on the (free) Official Palladium Fantasy RPG® Paper Miniatures Sample set, you might want to check that out as it's now canon.

UbiquitousRat wrote:Thanks - although that's an awfully complicated calculation to have to make.

Yes, movement in palladium is likely the biggest blank spot in the rules that really needs to be fixed.

A character's Speed score is the fastest they can move. Unless they're doing a full-on sprint they should not even be going that fast. I always work with it as the max number of feet a character can move per second.

For combat, I let a player move up to his speed score in feet and still attack. Moving more than that requires a full attack. I also allow characters to roll to dodge AoE's if their speed score is greater than the radius of the effect.

A quick conversion I utilize is to take the speed score, divide by 3, and multiply by 2 in order to get an approximate mph.

Actually, the Spd score is the number of yard you can move in 1 action at top speed. Thus, how many attacks/actions you get will factor into it.

pblackcrow wrote:Actually, the Spd score is the number of yard you can move in 1 action at top speed.

Uhm, no. That math doesn't work out as the number of attacks/actions any given character has will vary.

Cinos wrote:Yes, movement in palladium is likely the biggest blank spot in the rules that really needs to be fixed.

I suppose I didn't lay out the math in specific detail in the rules...

A character can choose to move 25% of their max distance per attack and still attack. That's canon as of the release of the Paper Miniatures.

So if your character has a Spd.: 20 and 3 attacks per melee, using the formulas on the page I linked above, you get this:

• 20x5= 100 yards per melee, or 300 feet per melee, or 100 feet per attack (at top speed).
• 20 x .68 (3600 ÷ 5280) = 13.6 miles per hour.

If you look at the quick combat rules in the sample linked above, you'll find that characters can either move their max distance (or a variable thereof), or move 1/4th of that distance and still attack on each action/attack.

Thus by the rules your character with a speed of 20 can move a maximum of 25 feet and still attack on each action.

Basic formula is SPD x 5 / Attacks per melee.

Example - SPD 10 X 5 / 4 attacks per melee = 12.5 yards per attack.

jaymz wrote:Basic formula is SPD x 5 / Attacks per melee.

Example - SPD 10 X 5 / 4 attacks per melee = 12.5 yards per attack.

Yes, or 3.125 and an attack/action.

Ah ok I misunderstood what you had posted as I don't have the paper minis yet.

jaymz wrote:Ah ok I misunderstood what you had posted as I don't have the paper minis yet.

The sample set in question is free...

I plan to get the whole set

Thanks, guys! That seems to sort that out nicely - thanks especially to MADMANMIKE!

Okay, I threw together a little visual aid for combat movement.

Combat Movement Example

UbiquitousRat wrote:Thanks - although that's an awfully complicated calculation to have to make.

The easy way is to know that Spd is equal to feet per second. Done.
EDIT: well not quite "done" because there is the separate issue of the movement of characters and the attacks/actions it uses... this is a huge issue for some GMs and players to agree on how to fix.

MADMANMIKE wrote:

pblackcrow wrote:Actually, the Spd score is the number of yard you can move in 1 action at top speed.

Uhm, no. That math doesn't work out as the number of attacks/actions any given character has will vary.

Cinos wrote:Yes, movement in palladium is likely the biggest blank spot in the rules that really needs to be fixed.

I suppose I didn't lay out the math in specific detail in the rules...

A character can choose to move 25% of their max distance per attack and still attack. That's canon as of the release of the Paper Miniatures.

So if your character has a Spd.: 20 and 3 attacks per melee, using the formulas on the page I linked above, you get this:

• 20x5= 100 yards per melee, or 300 feet per melee, or 100 feet per attack (at top speed).
• 20 x .68 (3600 ÷ 5380) = 13.6 miles per hour.

If you look at the quick combat rules in the sample linked above, you'll find that characters can either move their max distance (or a variable thereof), or move 1/4th of that distance and still attack on each action/attack.

Thus by the rules your character with a speed of 20 can move a maximum of 25 feet and still attack on each action.

Just checking here but a mile is 5280 not 5380, is there a reason for the extra 100 feet or simply a typo?

Thinyser wrote:Just checking here but a mile is 5280 not 5380, is there a reason for the extra 100 feet or simply a typo?

Fat-finger typo. Correct on the previously linked doc, fixed in the post.

MADMANMIKE wrote:

Thinyser wrote:Just checking here but a mile is 5280 not 5380, is there a reason for the extra 100 feet or simply a typo?

Fat-finger typo. Correct on the previously linked doc, fixed in the post.

That's what I figured. I dont have fat fingers but it seems to happen to me all to often!

I just divided speed by number off attacks, but that wasn't used often unless we used miniatures, so I just made it simpler (and still for miniature combat), every 10 speed was 1 10ft square you could move for free (rounded up, 15 was 2 squares), moving anything further than that would cost you all but one of your attacks but you didn't have to drop your backpack and gear to fight. Bonus was the table size needed was smaller as one character couldn't run from one side to the other in a round and fleet feet didn't let them run off the board, well with the free moves anyway and i also have shorter combat rounds as well. 10 seconds rather than 15.

Thinyser wrote:

MADMANMIKE wrote:

Thinyser wrote:Just checking here but a mile is 5280 not 5380, is there a reason for the extra 100 feet or simply a typo?

Fat-finger typo. Correct on the previously linked doc, fixed in the post.

That's what I figured. I dont have fat fingers but it seems to happen to me all to often!

My fingers aren't fat either, but years of manual labor have reduced their dexterity considerably..

Thinyser wrote:The easy way is to know that Spd is equal to feet per second. Done.
EDIT: well not quite "done" because there is the separate issue of the movement of characters and the attacks/actions it uses... this is a huge issue for some GMs and players to agree on how to fix.

Looking at it from that perspective, I'm not sure why there would be something to fix, or even an issue over it.. simply dividing the number of seconds in a melee to the number of attacks easily shows a character's potential movement; using the 1/4th rule for movement + attack, with 3 attacks and Spd. 20, this would be 100ft per attack at max run, or 25ft + attack, as I've described above..

Unless the confusion lies in the reduction of feet per attack as the number of attacks increases? I think I've seen people complain about that before, and to that end I have to agree that a more even dispersal of attacks across the melee better serves realism.. is that what you're referring to?

I rule of thumb it to Spd score in feet per action at a quick-but-controlled pace, or half that while doing something else.

It's not perfect, but it's reasonable and allows for tactical movement per action.

MADMANMIKE wrote:Unless the confusion lies in the reduction of feet per attack as the number of attacks increases? I think I've seen people complain about that before, and to that end I have to agree that a more even dispersal of attacks across the melee better serves realism.. is that what you're referring to?

Yes this is what I meant. Sorry for my lack of clarity on that part.

Thinyser wrote:

MADMANMIKE wrote:Unless the confusion lies in the reduction of feet per attack as the number of attacks increases? I think I've seen people complain about that before, and to that end I have to agree that a more even dispersal of attacks across the melee better serves realism.. is that what you're referring to?

Yes this is what I meant. Sorry for my lack of clarity on that part.

Yeah the reduction in distance as APM climbs is the stumbling block for alot of the fixes bouncing around out there.

The thing to remember is that there is no reduction of distance, just a smaller division thereof between more attacks. A Spd of 20 is 300ft per melee regardless of the number of attacks.

Someone posted an alternative initiative phase chart a while back that solved this problem, dividing a person's attacks into phases of the 15 seconds in a melee.. then the initiative only counted for the first attack and the last, and any characters that had the same amount of attacks; for example, if one player has five attacks and the other has 3, it would go something like this:

Seconds: |1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|10|11|12|13|14|15|
5 APM:....|1|.....|2|.........|3|.............|4|............|5|
3 APM:....|1|...................|2|.............................|3|

Your 1/4 isn't that far off what I did but I also did a 3 phase per melee system as well. Though my free movement is 1/5 and 3/5 (with a half wild penalty of sorts applied) while full move costs an action.

basically is free no penalty is SPD in feet, fast move 1/2 wild penalty applied is SPD x3 in feet, and full move is SPD x5 in feet but costs an action and applies full wild penalties to any action taken in addition to the move.

MADMANMIKE wrote:The thing to remember is that there is no reduction of distance, just a smaller division thereof between more attacks. A Spd of 20 is 300ft per melee regardless of the number of attacks.

Someone posted an alternative initiative phase chart a while back that solved this problem, dividing a person's attacks into phases of the 15 seconds in a melee.. then the initiative only counted for the first attack and the last, and any characters that had the same amount of attacks; for example, if one player has five attacks and the other has 3, it would go something like this:

Seconds: |1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|10|11|12|13|14|15|
5 APM:....|1|.....|2|.........|3|.............|4|............|5|
3 APM:....|1|...................|2|.............................|3|

while movement by the end of melee is still the same it is the distance covered within that is the problem when one ties movement to actions.
To use your example of 3 vs 5 to explain...
two characters both with a spd of 20 but one has 3APM the other 5APM.
The two come under fire (an arrow storm) and safety is from the arrows is 180 feet away. Player 1 (the one 3 apm) expends 2 actions to reach that safe distance (covers 100 feet per action).
But player 2 has to expend 3 to cover the same distance. (only covers 60 feet per action).
Tying movement to actions only creates issues.

kiralon wrote:I just divided speed by number off attacks, but that wasn't used often unless we used miniatures, so I just made it simpler (and still for miniature combat), every 10 speed was 1 10ft square you could move for free (rounded up, 15 was 2 squares), moving anything further than that would cost you all but one of your attacks but you didn't have to drop your backpack and gear to fight. Bonus was the table size needed was smaller as one character couldn't run from one side to the other in a round and fleet feet didn't let them run off the board, well with the free moves anyway and i also have shorter combat rounds as well. 10 seconds rather than 15.

and I also allow facing changes at anytime for each square you didn't move (to represent turning around in combat when someone tries to run around you and KO you from behind).

and we found the speed/attacks didn't work the greatest as well, thus the simpler approach, which also allows flanking from much faster opponents (all the free movement didn't have to be used in one action).

I remember playing an rpg where the number of attacks you had was mostly dictated by the weapon, a dagger would attack every 5 segments, and a longsword every 11 and so on, was an interesting idea.

Damian Magecraft wrote:

MADMANMIKE wrote:The thing to remember is that there is no reduction of distance, just a smaller division thereof between more attacks. A Spd of 20 is 300ft per melee regardless of the number of attacks.

Someone posted an alternative initiative phase chart a while back that solved this problem, dividing a person's attacks into phases of the 15 seconds in a melee.. then the initiative only counted for the first attack and the last, and any characters that had the same amount of attacks; for example, if one player has five attacks and the other has 3, it would go something like this:

Seconds: |1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|10|11|12|13|14|15|
5 APM:....|1|.....|2|.........|3|.............|4|............|5|
3 APM:....|1|...................|2|.............................|3|

while movement by the end of melee is still the same it is the distance covered within that is the problem when one ties movement to actions.
To use your example of 3 vs 5 to explain...
two characters both with a spd of 20 but one has 3APM the other 5APM.
The two come under fire (an arrow storm) and safety is from the arrows is 180 feet away. Player 1 (the one 3 apm) expends 2 actions to reach that safe distance (covers 100 feet per action).
But player 2 has to expend 3 to cover the same distance. (only covers 60 feet per action).
Tying movement to actions only creates issues.

Uhm... how is that an issue? Player 1 has 1 attack left and Player 2 has 2.. They've expended the same amount of time to go the distance.. Player 2 has more attacks left because Player 2 is more skilled.. that's why I say it's necessary to use a chart like the one above to space out the attacks across the melee.. You're 8 seconds into the melee and the weaker player is almost spent but the player with more attacks to begin with has more left in them...

Take movement out of it and consider this: player with 3 attacks can hit twice in the same amount of time Player with 5 attacks can hit 3 times.. That's just a representation of the player with more attacks being faster/more skilled. So breaking distance up by attacks is just refining the actions for a more cinematic play;

Or, if you consider movement + attack, you have a character with 3 attacks that can move 25 feet and attack each attack/action (plodding forward to swing at the enemy), and a player who can move 15 feet and attack on each attack/action (weaving into the melee to strike multiple times). When the player with more attacks complains "How come I can only move 15ft and he can move 25?" Point out that their character is more skilled and thus can attack more often in 15 seconds than the other, and remind them that by the end of the melee they will still have moved the same distance.

The perspective that says this is a problem is coming from a place I can't quite grasp..

Our group uses four phases per melee round, and you can move your spd attribute doubled per phase. It's quick and simple.

Don't know what happened here, other than an internet crash...

Prysus wrote:

Greetings and Salutations. Mike, the problem Damian is mentioning is due to the round robin system.

Both players start to run at the same time.

Attack 1: Both run. NPC fire arrows.
Attack 2: Both still running. Player 1 reaches safety while Player 2 is still running (despite the same speed). NPC fire arrows.
Attack 3: Player 1 takes an action. Player 2 reaches his destination (but spent the action running). NPC due whatever.

That's the combat system Palladium has set up, and why tying speed to actions can be an issue. Hope that helps. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

This is correct. The by the book method of round robin play combined with tieing actions to movement is where this becomes an issue. Change the style of play to have the number of attacks spread out and you pretty much fix the issue.

Prysus wrote:

Greetings and Salutations. Mike, the problem Damian is mentioning is due to the round robin system.

Both players start to run at the same time.

Attack 1: Both run. NPC fire arrows.
Attack 2: Both still running. Player 1 reaches safety while Player 2 is still running (despite the same speed). NPC fire arrows.
Attack 3: Player 1 takes an action. Player 2 reaches his destination (but spent the action running). NPC due whatever.

That's the combat system Palladium has set up, and why tying speed to actions can be an issue. Hope that helps. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Thanks, I get that.. The confusion I'm having is why he would quote my fix to that problem and use it as though it were a statement of the problem instead of the fix..

MADMANMIKE wrote:

Prysus wrote:

Greetings and Salutations. Mike, the problem Damian is mentioning is due to the round robin system.

Both players start to run at the same time.

Attack 1: Both run. NPC fire arrows.
Attack 2: Both still running. Player 1 reaches safety while Player 2 is still running (despite the same speed). NPC fire arrows.
Attack 3: Player 1 takes an action. Player 2 reaches his destination (but spent the action running). NPC due whatever.

That's the combat system Palladium has set up, and why tying speed to actions can be an issue. Hope that helps. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Thanks, I get that.. The confusion I'm having is why he would quote my fix to that problem and use it as though it were a statement of the problem instead of the fix..

Maybe because he's confused as to how exactly it fixes the problem?

Too many irons in the fire..

I've edited my response to Damian Magecraft's post and bolded the edit, and will further explain here.

In combat, a few things are static/without change; the length of a melee equaling 15 seconds and a person's Spd. attribute. In the example, both characters have the same Spd, and thus can only travel the exact same limited distance in a melee/15 seconds.

The only variable is the number of attacks; because one character is more skilled, that character has more attacks. Attacks do not magically increase the Spd attribute, and thus the distance one can travel in a melee does not change when you get more attacks.

So having more attacks isn't about getting to do more things in a melee, it's about being able to better manage your time within that 15 seconds. True, it takes more attacks for a character with more attacks and equal Spd to go the same distance, but that's not a penalty, it's a reflection of their combat awareness. The guy with 3 attacks is largely focused on getting from point A to point B, and the guy with 5 attacks has an extra opportunity mid-run to change his course or decide to do something else.

And as I mentioned, with the combat move (25ft + attack with 3APM, 15ft + attack with 5APM), that difference in combat awareness shows as the guy with 5 attacks gets to hit the enemy 2 more times on the same run.

Makes sense to me. Again, thanks for the clarification.