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I’ve been looking at the power of Invulnerability and been thinking about house ruling some aspects about it. Have any of you made house rules for Invulnerability (Besides Not Allowing it)? I’ve been contemplating of allowing Super Energy Expulsion (or even EXTREMELY POWERFUL explosives) to do damage to the characters with Invulnerability, based on the concept that supernatural strength can do damage. Why not, how else is that mighty paragon going to be able to shave, right? So I’m curious as to how you have or would house rule this power (Besides Not Allowing it)

No I haven't.

There are plenty of ways to overcome a Invulnerable char, especially if you don't let the char have any powers that enhance their combat bonuses or their strength.

knightgoblin wrote:Why not, how else is that mighty paragon going to be able to shave, right?

Use an enchanted razor.

The official vulnerabilities of Invulnerability (magic/psionic weapons, particle beams, nuclear weapons, etc.) are common enough in HU that I don't see a need for a house rule, but the suggestions given in Nightbane: Between the Shadows (half or full damage from magic, psionics, and supernatural creatures) seem like a reasonable option to me.

I houserule that any single attack which does over 100 S.D. will damage them on a 100:1 basis. Or another way to look at it is that I allow mega-damage attacks to damage them. Either way you think about it, for every 100 S.D. the attack inflicts they take one point of damage. It has to be damage from a single attack (or cluster of missiles/explosives), not weapon fire bursts.

I only implement this in the S.D.C. setting of Heroes Unlimited - in the M.D.C. setting of Rifts I use the power as noted in the conversion books with no additional house rules.

No feeling or sense of touch.
Immunity to physical injury, how would you feel anything??

I've always found attempts to nerf invulnerability annoying. If your game is actually about roleplaying, then focus on what the power doesn't allow a character to avoid, like failing to complete an objective. The fact that your loved ones are unlikely to also be invulnerable means that you are quite vulnerable to losing them. If you feel a need to damage someone with the power, there are already too many ways to do so; the so-called "invulnerability" power still leaves characters quite vulnerable.

I find invulnerable characters limiting but if thats the major power of choice its cool.

The no sense of touch or feeling is how I think the power would affect someone that can drop from orbit unscathed or use there body to stop machine gun fire or laugh off a missile volley. None of that hurt so.....how would you feel the warmth of the sun or a kiss??

say652 wrote:I find invulnerable characters limiting but if thats the major power of choice its cool.

The no sense of touch or feeling is how I think the power would affect someone that can drop from orbit unscathed or use there body to stop machine gun fire or laugh off a missile volley. None of that hurt so.....how would you feel the warmth of the sun or a kiss??

Comic Book Logic? While that is an interesting RP flaw to add to a character for depth it seems...odd to single out one ability and say '"your crippled. But no one else is" Where do you draw the line? How tough is 'to tough to feel' +10 sdc, +100, +1000? AR?

Nope being invulnerable. Sdc has nothing to do with not being hurt by lightning strikes.

I have always ruled that anything that, when converted into rifts, would do MDC damage, hurts the invulnerable character.

That makes them hella invulnerable, and still possible to take down.

Batts

The no sense of touch or feeling is how I think the power would affect someone that can drop from orbit unscathed or use there body to stop machine gun fire or laugh off a missile volley. None of that hurt so.....how would you feel the warmth of the sun or a kiss??

Maybe it filters out anything above a certain threshold? "Yes, I can feel you touching me. And now you're touching a little harder. And now it stings a bit, bit doesn't actually hurt. And now it stings a bit, but doesn't actually hurt. And now it stings a bit, but doesn't actually hurt. I can't tell the difference between those last three."

(Note that, by the rules as written, stings-a-bit-but-doesn't-actually-hurt is pretty much what extraordinary-strength punches do to invulnerable characters.)

I never had any trouble "taking down" invulnerable characters if I needed. Especially in Rifts where magic is less rare.

However, I banned the power from my HU games for a while anyways. Having the power just seems to make players stupid. If someone wanted "nigh invulnerability", I let them take the minor power Energy Resistance and apply the resistance to physical damage instead of energy damage (they could still take Energy Resistance again to be resistant against both physical and energy damage).

--flatline

Iczer wrote:I have always ruled that anything that, when converted into rifts, would do MDC damage, hurts the invulnerable character.

That makes them hella invulnerable, and still possible to take down.

Batts

So wait, almost all super powers that deal damage will now hurt an invulnerable character? Superhuman strength punches too? And Extraordinary strength power punches? Do they deal their Rifts: Conversion Book damages, or just the SDC in HU2 as damage?

flatline wrote:I never had any trouble "taking down" invulnerable characters if I needed. Especially in Rifts where magic is less rare.

However, I banned the power from my HU games for a while anyways. Having the power just seems to make players stupid. If someone wanted "nigh invulnerability", I let them take the minor power Energy Resistance and apply the resistance to physical damage instead of energy damage (they could still take Energy Resistance again to be resistant against both physical and energy damage).

--flatline

That power exists now in Powers Unlimited 1, it's called Impact Resistance.

Glistam wrote:

flatline wrote:I never had any trouble "taking down" invulnerable characters if I needed. Especially in Rifts where magic is less rare.

However, I banned the power from my HU games for a while anyways. Having the power just seems to make players stupid. If someone wanted "nigh invulnerability", I let them take the minor power Energy Resistance and apply the resistance to physical damage instead of energy damage (they could still take Energy Resistance again to be resistant against both physical and energy damage).

--flatline

That power exists now in Powers Unlimited 1, it's called Impact Resistance.

At some point I need to pick up PU1-3 and AU...

--flatline

I let invulnerability stand the way it is. Doesn't make sense to nerf something like that. I mean, it's a stupid power, it's really really lame to have...but some things are supposed to be that way. Energy imperviousness and invulnerability are like that.

say652 wrote:I find invulnerable characters limiting but if thats the major power of choice its cool.

The no sense of touch or feeling is how I think the power would affect someone that can drop from orbit unscathed or use there body to stop machine gun fire or laugh off a missile volley. None of that hurt so.....how would you feel the warmth of the sun or a kiss??

"Supernatural punches, bites and kicks inflict half damage; Extraordinary and Superhuman P .S. attacks do no damage, although they sting a bit."

So invulnerable character does feel some pain and have some touch sense.

Extraordinary Physical Structure or Superhuman Strength. So punches from these, like hard attacks sting a bit.
Total immunity to energy.

By definition You cant feel sunlight warmth or a crisp winter morning.
Since most physical attacks deal no damage and most superheroes punches only sting, youre going to feel a light touch such as a kiss??

This isn't nerfing, it's playing the power as written.

knightgoblin wrote:how else is that mighty paragon going to be able to shave, right?

What makes people think that Invulnerability applies to dead things the body creates like hair or fingernails? I believe those things would not be invulnerable, and that if you want to protect those, you would need something like Force Aura.

IE if you shoot an invulnerable guy with a long-range nuclear missile, they will be bald and have an awesome mani-pedi, and probably be naked too, unless they were wearing some kind of super-suit.

Tor wrote:

knightgoblin wrote:how else is that mighty paragon going to be able to shave, right?

What makes people think that Invulnerability applies to dead things the body creates like hair or fingernails?

I blame Superman IV.

Tinker Dragoon wrote:

Tor wrote:

knightgoblin wrote:how else is that mighty paragon going to be able to shave, right?

What makes people think that Invulnerability applies to dead things the body creates like hair or fingernails?

I blame Superman IV.

It is the same as why doesn't all of Wolverines head and facial hair grow back with his healing powers after he cuts it. It is trying to bring logic and reality into the fantasy of superheros. Some stuff just doesn't make since and thus trying to make it explainable is way too much effort and often futile effort.

We just need everyone to hit the "I Believe Button" Invulnerable characters have a since of touch the power doesn't limited that and they can cut their hair and nails too. Many things aren't logical when dealing with Superheros and Superpowers.

Tor wrote:

knightgoblin wrote:how else is that mighty paragon going to be able to shave, right?

What makes people think that Invulnerability applies to dead things the body creates like hair or fingernails? I believe those things would not be invulnerable, and that if you want to protect those, you would need something like Force Aura.

IE if you shoot an invulnerable guy with a long-range nuclear missile, they will be bald and have an awesome mani-pedi, and probably be naked too, unless they were wearing some kind of super-suit.

There is no reason to assume either way. The hair/nails/outer layer of skin could be vulnerable since its dead, or it could be just as invulnerable since its still 'part of the person' (at least by 'comic book logic' which seems to be a key issue).

My point is no sense of touch.

say652 wrote:My point is no sense of touch.

Except they clearly do have a sense of touch, touch and pain aren't the same thing and since it doesn't state they can't feel then they must be able to feel like everyone else can. While that may be a problem for some invulnerable characters in comics (such as one elseworld where a group of humans were given copies of a single power of Superman, with the Invulnerable guy lacking the ability to feel anything or that one super-villain trying to become a hero Max Damage) it's explicitly not a problem of characters with the Invulnerable power in the Palladium megaverse such as Heroes Unlimited.

Title was HOUSE RULES.

So in my house if your invulnerable you have no sense of touch.

Way to argue someone elses house rulings and not read the original post. To smart to follow instructions maybe???

My hypothesis is maybe the op was curious about how different people use invulnerability.

Much like breathe without characters sometimes not having a sense of smell or taste.

I'm curious now Nightmask.
In your HOUSE how invulnerable characters are treated? ?

say652 wrote:Extraordinary Physical Structure or Superhuman Strength. So punches from these, like hard attacks sting a bit.
Total immunity to energy.

By definition You cant feel sunlight warmth or a crisp winter morning.
Since most physical attacks deal no damage and most superheroes punches only sting, youre going to feel a light touch such as a kiss??

This isn't nerfing, it's playing the power as written.

Uh, no, PB specifically says when people lose feeling, see Zombie Flesh and some bionic characters(plus the cybernetics enhanced supersoldier). So it's your home rule, not "playing the power as written."

Sir_Spirit wrote:

say652 wrote:Extraordinary Physical Structure or Superhuman Strength. So punches from these, like hard attacks sting a bit.
Total immunity to energy.

By definition You cant feel sunlight warmth or a crisp winter morning.
Since most physical attacks deal no damage and most superheroes punches only sting, youre going to feel a light touch such as a kiss??

This isn't nerfing, it's playing the power as written.

Uh, no, PB specifically says when people lose feeling, see Zombie Flesh and some bionic characters(plus the cybernetics enhanced supersoldier). So it's your home rule, not "playing the power as written."

Plus by the reasoning given the character would be blind and deaf as well if he couldn't experience any energy, since the nerve receptors in his eyes wouldn't change in response to the light nor would his inner ear membrane vibrate in response to sound. The Invulnerability just means it can't cause harm not that you can't experience anything you're invulnerable to like touch.

For what it's worth, NINJAS & SUPERSPIES specifies that Invulnerable characters -- who of course take no damage from various strikes, and are immune to various special abilities -- can get messed up by a handful of 'em precisely because they still have normal feeling; take away that aspect and you've arguably removed one of their, uh, vulnerabilities.

Glistam wrote:

Iczer wrote:I have always ruled that anything that, when converted into rifts, would do MDC damage, hurts the invulnerable character.

That makes them hella invulnerable, and still possible to take down.

Batts

So wait, almost all super powers that deal damage will now hurt an invulnerable character? Superhuman strength punches too? And Extraordinary strength power punches? Do they deal their Rifts: Conversion Book damages, or just the SDC in HU2 as damage?

Yes. Why not. -Super- Powers. The guy is still invulnerable to guns, swords, bullets, rockets, tanks, falls from airplanes, glacial drift and republican rhetoric. But Super powered lightning bolts are going to hurt.

As for damage....no need to complicate things overly. If it can hurt, it will. When I feel the need to double check, I hit Skraypers (Ostensibly better related to HU than rifts has ever been).

Batts

Iczer wrote:

Glistam wrote:

Iczer wrote:I have always ruled that anything that, when converted into rifts, would do MDC damage, hurts the invulnerable character.

That makes them hella invulnerable, and still possible to take down.

Batts

So wait, almost all super powers that deal damage will now hurt an invulnerable character? Superhuman strength punches too? And Extraordinary strength power punches? Do they deal their Rifts: Conversion Book damages, or just the SDC in HU2 as damage?

Yes. Why not. -Super- Powers. The guy is still invulnerable to guns, swords, bullets, rockets, tanks, falls from airplanes, glacial drift and republican rhetoric. But Super powered lightning bolts are going to hurt.

Why? Just because it's a super-power creating it doesn't make the electricity somehow different or special compared to electricity from a power plant and the Invulnerable character isn't going to be bothered by that and no reason he should be bothered by much more inferior levels of electricity from someone's super-power. Electro isn't going to have any more luck injuring Juggernaut for example than a lightning strike or feeding a power grid through him will. He's hardly invulnerable if he's got a huge gaping hole that anyone with super-powers can hurt him, that's definitely NOT invulnerable.

Nightmask wrote:Why? Just because it's a super-power creating it doesn't make the electricity somehow different or special compared to electricity from a power plant

By that reasoning, super powers should not convert to Mega Damage in Rifts. The fact that they do implies that super powers are not entirely natural phenomena.

Tinker Dragoon wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Why? Just because it's a super-power creating it doesn't make the electricity somehow different or special compared to electricity from a power plant

By that reasoning, super powers should not convert to Mega Damage in Rifts. The fact that they do implies that super powers are not entirely natural phenomena.

There's no in-game justification. It was entirely done for game balance reasons.

Get rid of MDC. Your game will get much better.

--flatline

Tinker Dragoon wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Why? Just because it's a super-power creating it doesn't make the electricity somehow different or special compared to electricity from a power plant

By that reasoning, super powers should not convert to Mega Damage in Rifts. The fact that they do implies that super powers are not entirely natural phenomena.

Uh no, those things don't relate. Super-powers being more powerful in Rifts has nothing to do with whether or not said powers would deal damage to something that's invulnerable using an attack that's effectively identical to it being generated by a non-superpowered method. The Human Torch's fire powers burn things just the same as any other power and don't get around something being immune to harm because 'well it was a super-power that generated them not a propane-fueled flamethrower'.

Something about settings like Rifts super-charge many super-powers so that they're much more powerful than in their home environment, it's not making those that do things like deal electrical damage somehow have special electricity (certainly I haven't seen anyone try arguing that unlike some special things like phase weapons that those attacks deal mega-damage to MDC things but only SDC/HP damage to SDC/HP things, they deal only mega-damage), it's just intense in the mega-damage range now. There's no reason why someone who had mundane protection against electrical attacks (say well insulated and shielded power armor) would be able to shrug off an electrical attack unharmed but someone with Invulnerability and able to resist being harmed by anything short of a colony drop would take electrical damage. The method of generating it may be different but the attack itself has no special properties associated with it and no reason to think it would be able to harm what can't be harmed.

Thanks all for your input! I appreciate the enthusiasm. So after looking at your posts and looking at several Palladium books, I’ve come up with a house rule.

Here’s the rough draft:

Invulnerability (House Rule)

An impressive power that makes the character an almost indestructible juggernaut. Most physical attacks do no damage whatsoever! This means cold, fire, heat, electricity, lasers, other types of energy, bullets, punches, falls, and so on, do no damage, unless the conventional damage exceeds 100. If the damage is over 100 the character receives 1 point of S.D.C. damage for every 100 points of damage.

Supernatural punches, bites, kicks, Extraordinary P.S. (at the cost of 2 actions), Superhuman P.S., Energy Expulsion: Energy and other powers (including magic and psionics) that do physical damage, are soaked by the invulnerable character for the first 30 points of damage. Any damage that exceeds 30 is halved rounded down. For example: An invulnerable character is blasted by Energy Expulsion: Energy for 41 points. The invulnerable character receives only 5 points of S.D.C. damage!

1. Invulnerability grants the character with incredible recuperative abilities, allowing the character to recover 1D6x10 S.D.C. or Hit Points every minute (4 melees).

2. At the cost of 2 actions/attacks, the character can also choose to block damage and add his or her P.E. to the amount soaked.

Gases, drugs, chemicals, poisons, toxins, disease and radiation will affect the invulnerable person, but are reduced to half the usual potency (half damage, duration, and effect). Deadly poisons, radiation and disease cannot kill this character, only make him sick.
This character is only, truly, vulnerable to psionics, spell magic, magic illusions, and magic weapons, all of which have full effect.

The character still needs to breathe and eat, so he can die from drowning, suffocation, or starvation, but he can hold his breath and survive without food four times longer than the average human (hold breath for about 12 minutes; go without food for 80 days).

Other Abilities and Bonuses:

Add 4D6x10 S.D.C.
Add 3D6x10 Hit Points
Add 1D6 to the P.E. attribute
Add 1D4 to the P.S. attribute, which is considered Superhuman when it comes to lifting and carrying things.
Add +20% to save vs coma/death (this is in addition to any P.E. bonus).

The power can be tricky to mess around with, but even a character without the powers or resources that damage invulnerable characters can take them down. You just have to think about other abilities. Take downs, disabling attacks, environmental attacks, indirect injury/attacks. Those sorts of things.

ItsmeYo wrote:Soooo disruptive touch vs invulnerable characters? ?

I see no mechanical reason why Invulnerability should be immune to Disruptive Touch.

Tinker Dragoon wrote:I blame Superman IV.

Supes has a bio-electric aura

Lukterran wrote:why doesn't all of Wolverines head and facial hair grow back with his healing powers after he cuts it.

Because they are not living parts of him so the body does not perceive their loss as an injury?

Tinker Dragoon wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Why? Just because it's a super-power creating it doesn't make the electricity somehow different or special compared to electricity from a power plant

By that reasoning, super powers should not convert to Mega Damage in Rifts. The fact that they do implies that super powers are not entirely natural phenomena.

By this reasoning, MD weapons should not do less damage in SDC settings

Damian Magecraft wrote:

ItsmeYo wrote:Soooo disruptive touch vs invulnerable characters? ?

I see no mechanical reason why Invulnerability should be immune to Disruptive Touch.

Ignoring the argument about penalties, the question is basically whether or not damage should be taken. DT does this three ways, via death touch, via pain touch, or if someone passes a savings throw.

Invulnerability doesn't mention DT, and DT doesn't mention invulnerability. DT doesn't appear to fall under any of the categories Invulnerability specifically is immune to or is harmed by, so it's an unknown, unless there's a GMG tidbit somewhere that brings it up.

Tor wrote:

Tinker Dragoon wrote:I blame Superman IV.

Supes has a bio-electric aura

Lukterran wrote:why doesn't all of Wolverines head and facial hair grow back with his healing powers after he cuts it.

Because they are not living parts of him so the body does not perceive their loss as an injury?

Tinker Dragoon wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Why? Just because it's a super-power creating it doesn't make the electricity somehow different or special compared to electricity from a power plant

By that reasoning, super powers should not convert to Mega Damage in Rifts. The fact that they do implies that super powers are not entirely natural phenomena.

By this reasoning, MD weapons should not do less damage in SDC settings

Damian Magecraft wrote:

ItsmeYo wrote:Soooo disruptive touch vs invulnerable characters? ?

I see no mechanical reason why Invulnerability should be immune to Disruptive Touch.

Ignoring the argument about penalties, the question is basically whether or not damage should be taken. DT does this three ways, via death touch, via pain touch, or if someone passes a savings throw.

Invulnerability doesn't mention DT, and DT doesn't mention invulnerability. DT doesn't appear to fall under any of the categories Invulnerability specifically is immune to or is harmed by, so it's an unknown, unless there's a GMG tidbit somewhere that brings it up.

It's not specifically exempted by Invulnerability power, DT will work.

I'd think it'd be the other way around and unless it's listed as being a weakness like psionics or non-energy magic etc shouldn't it not work against Invulnerability.


Daniel Stoker

Daniel Stoker wrote:I'd think it'd be the other way around and unless it's listed as being a weakness like psionics or non-energy magic etc shouldn't it not work against Invulnerability.


Daniel Stoker

Okay, what leads you to that? I feel that since it's listed effects are outside invulnerability's benefits, works on the same principals that make the invulnerable character immune to bullets. Handwavium.

Edit: Adding a smiley to make sure Daniel knows this is legit question and not our usual gunboat diplomancy.

In this case I'm less sure, I misread the thread and for some reason read DT as DU and thought it was the ammunition. In this case I’d say yes…. But only because they’re supposed to be vulnerable to the Dim Mak and psionics so this would seem to be similar in nature, but I’d entertain arguments on both ways.


Daniel Stoker

Daniel Stoker wrote:In this case I'm less sure, I misread the thread and for some reason read DT as DU and thought it was the ammunition. In this case I’d say yes…. But only because they’re supposed to be vulnerable to the Dim Mak and psionics so this would seem to be similar in nature, but I’d entertain arguments on both ways.


Daniel Stoker

Okay then. I've had that trouble on these two threads as well. Stupid touch screen. I mean I really like my Lappy 486, but some of these features are a real benefit/penalty kind of deal.

Well then back to as we were.

The Artist Formerly wrote:It's not specifically exempted by Invulnerability power, DT will work.

I'm not sure whether or not it is, because I don't actually understand the nature of what Disruptive Touch actually does. My instinct is to think it's like an electric shock to the nervous system, but it doesn't specifically mention electricity (even though that's how nerves usually work...) so I can't go forward based on that.

Tor wrote:

The Artist Formerly wrote:It's not specifically exempted by Invulnerability power, DT will work.

I'm not sure whether or not it is, because I don't actually understand the nature of what Disruptive Touch actually does. My instinct is to think it's like an electric shock to the nervous system, but it doesn't specifically mention electricity (even though that's how nerves usually work...) so I can't go forward based on that.

These are not the droids you're looking for. You can go about your business, move along. That's all you need to know.

Could be a brain screw psi-like effect, could be a electro touch as you suggest, could be chemical neurotoxin. Could be a minor time space distortion. It doesn't matter.

1) only vulnerable to magic. Psionics can do no damage. Mess with their minds sure, but no damage.
2) here is my write up
Other than the nearly complete inability to be physically harmed by anything (drink acid it’s ok a small celestial body crashing down on you, ok, being hit by a mac truck going 100 mph no problem). Chi attacks that affect SDC does half damage. Psionics that affect SDC or HP do no damage. Magic does full damage
PS+20
PE+20
SDCx100


Unless you are an actual supernatural creature you are going to have to find another way to beat them other than hitting them with sticks and throwing rocks

KillWatch wrote:Unless you are an actual supernatural creature you are going to have to find another way to beat them other than hitting them with sticks and throwing rocks

I've always found that's a crock. If you find yourself facing an invulnerable foe you really could be done for long before any half baked plan that you really have to make up on the fly gets to work.

Lead him into a pit? why do you have one handy? Dump cement on him? same question.

Palladium Invulnerability has this on/off dichotomy problem. either you can defeat them, or you cannot.

The problem is exacerbated by the other bonuses. Tons of SDC, so you still have to chip through their immense SDC reserves (and neither psionics nor magic do that much damage) Superhuman strength (with a bonus no less) means you can't just trap them. and heaven help you if the opponent knows an obvious set up when he sees it. (the brainless brick is a beautiful stereotype though)

Worse is how much time do you waste just discovering your opponent is invulnerable? Bullets bounce off him? could be AR. Could be Bulletproof. could be immunity to fast impacts. could be lots of things. How much damage can he do in the handful of rounds while you work it out? (hint: a fair bit. please mind the flung vehicles.)

The literature is littered with numerous examples of the little guy stopping he juggernaught, but these are contrivances set in play by the author. In a game, either the GM is handing this to you or you have to beg him to let your own contrivance not only work, but actually exist to work with.

Invulnerability is a bit all or nothing. the characters that can shut down an invulnerable super, can shut down pretty much anyone. It turns games into rocks/scissors/paper.

So, Yes. I support and endorse house rules that broaden a players options when dealing with these types of foes.

Batts

always?
How so?
so these have never worked for you;
pepper spray, nerve gas, flash/bangs, stun batons, smoke grenades, rope, a bucket of water

If your goal is to do damage then yes - you fail
If your goal is neutralize, incapacitate or even kill, you have options.
If your character is nothing but a collection of powers then yes, you fail

its not an either or with invulnerability and defeating them - you can defeat ANYTHING in palladium, you just have to go from brute strength to using some gray matter. Invulnerability has 2 weakness and it should be watered down. I mean how stupid would wingless flight be if I came along with all kinds of other conditions
-well you are technically weightless you can't fly on a breezy day,
-Yes YOU can fly but your clothes and gear can't, they have to come off
-Right your strength WOULD allow you to hold 2 tons but certainly not while flying
-Your obvious violation of the boson particle principle causes you to warp reality blah blah blah - you have become a spatial rift
-So you are flying? roll for damage for flying through a swarm of june bugs, let see flying at 220 mph, +4 per 20, x 10 june bugs, take 240 damage, to your head so that's 480 points,... sorry

The power has 1 job, let it do that. and sorry if it forces you to be more creative than treating every problem like a nail

I see the reason why people ask about if a newer power can harm/affect an invulnerable person like this...

When the power "Invulnerability" was written, "power x/concept z" did not exist so the possibility of power x harming Invulnerability was never considered by the creator of Invulnerability. Also, eventually as time goes on, as new powers come out and as a result, new power combos come out, yes, people are going to compare them to Invulnerability.

Want Invulnerability to basically make you a god? Sure, its your game, let it do what you want. At the same time, a GM does not have to allow the power to exist in their game. Or gosh darn it, what is it that Kevin and others have said throughout the books?? Hold on.... Oh yeah... you dont like someting then change it.

There is also the story where you can get 4 people to read the same thing and in the end, they will describe 4 different interpretations.

KillWatch wrote:always?
How so?
so these have never worked for you;
pepper spray, nerve gas, flash/bangs, stun batons, smoke grenades, rope, a bucket of water

If your goal is to do damage then yes - you fail
If your goal is neutralize, incapacitate or even kill, you have options.
If your character is nothing but a collection of powers then yes, you fail

its not an either or with invulnerability and defeating them - you can defeat ANYTHING in palladium, you just have to go from brute strength to using some gray matter. Invulnerability has 2 weakness and it should be watered down. I mean how stupid would wingless flight be if I came along with all kinds of other conditions
-well you are technically weightless you can't fly on a breezy day,
-Yes YOU can fly but your clothes and gear can't, they have to come off
-Right your strength WOULD allow you to hold 2 tons but certainly not while flying
-Your obvious violation of the boson particle principle causes you to warp reality blah blah blah - you have become a spatial rift
-So you are flying? roll for damage for flying through a swarm of june bugs, let see flying at 220 mph, +4 per 20, x 10 june bugs, take 240 damage, to your head so that's 480 points,... sorry

The power has 1 job, let it do that. and sorry if it forces you to be more creative than treating every problem like a nail

It's always hard to follow up a post like this politely.

Firstly, I'm not quite sure you were being entirely serious with your first few suggestions. pepper spray? really? a flamethrower applied directly to his eyes is going to muff his hair but a can of mace will end him? also... what were you achieving with smoke? or a bucket of water?

It's odd to hear 'grey matter' being used as the ultimate of superabilities. I suppose if your players are pulling the wool over your eyes in game it might seem like some innovative or genius plays are being made, but I haven't heard a single takedown occurring to an invulnerable character that didn't stink of either Fiat or player browbeating.

I'll lay aside your flight: wingless comments, as they seem rather..... well it seems they've escalated rather quickly.

The power has one job. On top of that it handles several other jobs, which is good of it, but it does lend the power an air of...I think Mary sue is the best term. I don't think calling my creativity into doubt was at all called for. Perhaps it is a bit hard to get proper perspective when you climb your soapbox?

Batts

Have had no trouble hurting/stopping invulnerable characters. Most of the characters still have to breath/eat and are vulnerable to gases and air born toxins.

Have buried many an invulnerable character in quick drying cement.