Non-automatic Body Flips as Attack or Defense

[Tor]

It's pretty clear that automatic flips are purely defensive and work simply in that regard. If you make the roll, it nullifies an attack and inflicts damage to attacker and is presumably unavoidable if it succeeds in beating the strike (unless there's an argument for an attacker getting to avoid it?).

The standard 'body flip' is a bit more ambiguous though. I believe that like disarm it can be used defensive or offensively. We are told that 'as an attack' it can be critical or be used to hurt 2 people (the person being flipped, and someone else you're flipping them into) which is pretty good. That it has this disclaimer I believe strongly implies it can also be a defense though.

As a defense, the upside is that if you use it, you only have to beat a strike roll instead of a parry/dodge, which could mean that it is easier to use the flip against the opponents this way. The downside of course is that if your defense fails, you can't use your roll (which in N&SS costs nothing) which you could still use if you'd opted for a parry or dodge. I assume it works this way since you lose your RWI from automatic body flips and this basically operates the same way except it costs an attack (like entangles or normal dodges).

A third option also exists: using a 'body flip attack' as a simultaneous attack. This has a benefit similar to (and actually better than) a defensive body flip in unavoidability, in that they don't even get a parry/dodge at all, since it's simultaneous. Another upside is that you can use critical/throw-into techniques. The downside of course being that you have to take a hit (doesn't neutralize an attack like defensive body flip, doesn't retain you the option of automatic parries like offensive body flip).

One thing I do wonder about BFAs though, if yo have the 'critical flip' ability and opt to throw into someone, do BOTH take doubled damage?

Also how do we interpret the ability? Is criticalness (doubling) automatic? Or is it just saying that natural 20s only double the damage when used as an attack but a natural 20 on an automatic (or defensive) body flip still does standard damage?

The presentations have been a bit inconsistent.

*On page 85, a natural roll is given for Aikido's critical flips at level 5, but Bok Pai has no special natural roll given for Critical Flip, nor does Hwarang-Do on page 92. Do we just use their level 2 (or 1) number? (odd, does that mean natural 20s don't benefit Bok Pai guys at level 1?) Or their level 5 expanded Crit numbers number? Does Bok Pai level 6 (or Hwarang level 4) mean any sneak flip is a crit?

*Bok Pai and Hwarang-Do have both flip AND critical flip, while Aikido doesn't list a normal body flip. Is the implication that anyone who has an 'automatic' flip has the default move by default if they opt to use it offensively? Or would Aikido guys have to wait until level 5 before they could do non-defensive flips?

*On page 99 for Ninjutsu (and page 101 for Sankukai) does lacking a critical flip listing mean that their rear crit and level 8 (10 for Sank) expansion don't apply to flip attacks?

*Sumos have crit but no table number like Aikido so would they just go with the level 1/5 numbers?

*Sumo level 15 is the greatest source of confusion for me. For some reason Sumo seems to insist on reminding us about its enhanced damage every time a body flip bonus occurs (levels 2/7/11) even though when this happens elsewhere (AikidoPg85level6+10+12+13 and HwarangPg92level7+14 and YuSoolPg112level3+) it is only mentioned initially when the upgrade occurs. It seems pretty clear that for the most part, arts are tier 1, Sumos then Yusools then Hwarangs become tier 2, and Aikido guys become tier 3. I get the impression that Sumos eventually enter a "tier 4" surpassing Aikido, but the mention of 'critical' confuses the issue. Here's why:

Aikido's "extra damage" applies by default to ALL flips. Their ability to 'critical' offensively would stack with this, making a total of 6 dice.

Sumo's "damage" applies to all flips, but it is unclear what level 15 actually does. Does it enhance the damage of their automatic flips and stack with their normal critical strike guidelines? Or does it simply mean that any offensive flip attacks are automatically critical if the strike succeeds?

In the former case, it makes Sumos pretty good, and kinda better than Aikido. But in the latter case, it probably retains the edge in Aikido's favour, since they'd be on top when they do crit, damage better defensively, and Sumos would only have a slight edge in offensive situations. Moreso if criticals apply to both targets during offensive throw-ats.

[Alrik Vas]

I think the critical damage applies to the person being flipped, as that's the action you're using. the person being hit by the body itself wouldn't even take normal body filp damage, it would be a like a tackle (1d4, and not even necessarily get a PS bonus).

Using your standard body flip as a defense, i think is totally fine. Though it does use an action, much like a disarm would (unless, of course, you have automatic flip or automatic disarm...).

If the rule was you could simultaneous strike with a body flip, the difference would be the person being flipped would lose an action and initiative. Nothing would stop either attack from succeeding, by the rules (unless of course you missed). A GM might rule if the flip is successful that it negates the attack being responded to...but...then that's just a flip as a defense....so....yeah.

[Tor]

Upon re-reading I noticed it explicitly says "both take the same amount of damage", so I think the critical WOULD apply.

Yeah I don't think any result of an attack should stop a simultaneous attack. If I SA a guy stabbing my eye and I manage to decapitate him in the SA, my eye's still getting stabbed.

[Alrik Vas]

Huh...well, that's jacked up. You get to hit two guys and at least one of them is -1 attack and loses initiative, both taking critical damage?

I mean, seems good and all, but damn.

[say652]

House rule from way back. Sacrifice two attacks for a Defensive flip/Throw and the bonus applies for the projectile badguy into the one charging.
Gm did that in A grand melee in the wooden weapon metal armor league to show its a real move. I kept getting benched for hilt punching and kicking.