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and one of those two came to rifts via the 'slow method'.. he lived through the golden age, the coming of the rifts, etc.

so the similarities pretty much have to be one for one. even if Victor Lazlo came from another BTS, it would have been exactly the same as the one in the history of Rifts. so much so the question of whether they are seperate universes is only going to be of interest to physicists.

Eashamahel wrote:What reason would there be for BTS to not be the past of Rifts? I don't mean what page number, ect, but why would you WANT BTS to not be RIFTS earth's past? What advantage is there for it to be that way? I'm confused as to what is gained by this seperation.

The main advantage is that Lazlo could go home some day, and you could move from Rifts to BtS without requiring backwards time-travel.

Easiest solution: there are 2 identical worlds of BtS. One is the past of Rifts, and happened a while ago. The other is not the past of our Rifts (though might be the past of some other eventual Rifts) and it's 20th century is aligned with Rifts' 25th (or whatever, I forget the Rifts timeline sometimes) century.

This isn't a problem with a single solution. Both TTMNT and England told us enough about the metaphysics of the Megaverse to know that all options can exist simultaneously.

I have some of things to say regarding this topic

1. Let's just say for the sake of argument that BTS IS or IS NOT (your choice) the past of Chaos Earth and Rifts. By having the material included or excluded (your choice) from your Chaos Earth and/or Rifts game does it hurt anything? I mean seriously, what PROBLEM is caused by it Being or Not Being the past?

Personally I don't see any harm in it being part of the timeline. It (imho) expands story line possibilities and (as discussed in another thread Non-weapon and Armor items for Chaos Earth) adds in a near infinite (limited only by your imagination) amount of artifacts for your PC's to track down. I can see CS and NonCS groups after the same item although with different goals.

2. I personally CHOOSE to line up all the Human-centric games in a sort of loose slightly overlapping timeline. I understand this idea isn't perfect and it has some fairly obvious holes, but it make some sort of weird sense to me.

PF ----- The lost years (Valley of the Pharaohs maybe?)---- BTS(early 20th century to present age) - N&SS+MC (post WW II to present day) --- HU (WW II to ????) ---- Chaos Earth (folllow book timeline) ---- Rifts (follow book timeline).

If I've left out a game, it's because I don't know enough about it to include it here or think it should be a separate timeline/dimension.

TMNT-->AtB is a separate dimension.

Dead Reign would be an alternate dimension where DR took the place of HU [Same goes for System Failure and Nightbane.] (what would follow in that sequence I don't know.)

Splicers I don't know enough about.

HU2 is definately a seperate universe from the BTS/CE/RIFTS one..

not only is there nothing to indicate superheroes existed prior to the cataclysm, but megaverse builder specifically singled it out for a seperate universe. described a having a slower flow of time relative to rifts, and tolkien tried to recruit heroes to fight against the CS.

N&SS/MC could fit into either.

glitterboy2098 wrote:HU2 is definately a seperate universe from the BTS/CE/RIFTS one..

not only is there nothing to indicate superheroes existed prior to the cataclysm, but megaverse builder specifically singled it out for a seperate universe. described a having a slower flow of time relative to rifts, and tolkien tried to recruit heroes to fight against the CS.

N&SS/MC could fit into either.

I'd have to agree, we see some surviving (albeit altered) versions of some of the special MA from the N&SS/MC setting and Mystic China was done around the extremely low powered BtS format in design and much of it as being 'these things are hidden from the world' rather than the very open and much more powerful HU setting.

Like i said, it's not a perfect flawless idea. just the thought that all the human type games would fit together.

So the official line is that BTS =/= RIFTS earth's past, but RIFTS earth's past DOES include a Victor Lazlo, a Lazlo society, there were demons and monsters in the shadows, and parapsychologists and psychics were aware of them and the supernatural world at large.

So even if BTS =/= RIFTS earth's past, RIFTS earth's past is functionally identical to BTS?

Eashamahel wrote:So the official line is that BTS =/= RIFTS earth's past, but RIFTS earth's past DOES include a Victor Lazlo, a Lazlo society, there were demons and monsters in the shadows, and parapsychologists and psychics were aware of them and the supernatural world at large.

So even if BTS =/= RIFTS earth's past, RIFTS earth's past is functionally identical to BTS?

Which being so you can't say BtS isn't the past of Rifts Earth because if you can't tell them apart then you can't claim that they are because there's no way to prove it. All evidence says that they're the same so without something to the contrary (like the discovery of the SDF-1 in BtS but proof it never existed in the past of Rifts Earth) then we must consider that it is.

Nightmask wrote:

Eashamahel wrote:So the official line is that BTS =/= RIFTS earth's past, but RIFTS earth's past DOES include a Victor Lazlo, a Lazlo society, there were demons and monsters in the shadows, and parapsychologists and psychics were aware of them and the supernatural world at large.

So even if BTS =/= RIFTS earth's past, RIFTS earth's past is functionally identical to BTS?

Which being so you can't say BtS isn't the past of Rifts Earth because if you can't tell them apart then you can't claim that they are because there's no way to prove it. All evidence says that they're the same so without something to the contrary (like the discovery of the SDF-1 in BtS but proof it never existed in the past of Rifts Earth) then we must consider that it is.

No, we don't have to concur that it is, we just have to agree that we can't say that it ISN'T (these are not the same) As for differences, there may (or may not be) differences depending on how you decide to interpret stuff. (heck WHICH BtS are you using 1st ed. or 2nd ed.? They are different after all) And there are possible differences (there is no canonical support for the various Chaing-Ku dragons, or the Immortal psi-race, or rune weapons, or True Atlanians in any canonical BtS material)
The main reason we can assume that BtS =/= CE =/= Rifts is the decision to separate all lines for licensing (this means that the Rifts line/license does not include the CE or BtS licenses)

So really the argument is not that BTS wasn't orignaly supposed to be the past of the original RIFTS earth, but that due to a few changes such as the new edition of BTS, the coming of the Ultimate edition in RIFTS, and the authors decision to seperate the game lines, it is no longer supposed to be directly connected, which is why older material (pre-UE/2nd ed) clearly states that BTS=RIFTS, but newer releases dispute this (without coming up wiht any explanation for the earlier storyline connections).

Meh I combine BtS, HU, NS and N&SS. If things like these games can exist in conjunction with each other in comic lines then they can exist in conjunction with each other as an RPG setting....They lead to CE and then to Rifts. That is my preference thus I use it that way.

Eashamahel wrote:So really the argument is not that BTS wasn't orignaly supposed to be the past of the original RIFTS earth, but that due to a few changes such as the new edition of BTS, the coming of the Ultimate edition in RIFTS, and the authors decision to seperate the game lines, it is no longer supposed to be directly connected, which is why older material (pre-UE/2nd ed) clearly states that BTS=RIFTS, but newer releases dispute this (without coming up wiht any explanation for the earlier storyline connections).

its not that simple. originally, BTS was a seperate universe. then Victor Lazlo was added to rifts, and BTS said to be specifically rifts past. then kevin put out a rifter article which redefined "timey-wimy" in regards to timelines.. it said that unrelated universes merged to make rifts, so BTS both is an isn't rifts past. then he backslid to it being the history of rifts. then back to being another timeline. then with triax2 it's back to being the history of rifts again.

BTS2 actually seems to back up the idea of BTS as rift's history.. the firewalkers are obviously early bursters, and the hunter's and psi-techs seem to have been done to evoke the later techno-wizardry. the whole "psychics responding to danger/supernatural has ties to the way psistalkers and other rifts classes work as well.
and the dragon dude who shows up in WB4 to meet Victor Lazlo (having taken 'the slow route' through time) appears in BTS2 complete with hints as to his not being human.

huh, that's neat about Lo Fung (I think that was the dragon character) being in BTS 2. Too bad there's no mention of the Mercenaries characters from BTS, but that would probably be hoping for too much.

How is this not locked by the first page? Who knows? But it's unlocked non-the-less.

Take what I have to say, or leave it, I really do not care; but since Palladium is *notorious* for allowing contradictions (which I find very odd since Kevin always oversees each book personally...he should be the continuity), I subscribe to the most recent official printing of a topic since we end up getting two very specific, official points that clearly contradict each other.

So as of today, BTS is the past of Rifts Earth. That is until official word is printed to contradict again. That is my opinion. Nothing more. Hope it helps in your quest to determine if BTS is CE/Rifts' past in your games.

I think the seperation of all the dimentions in the palladium portfolio to ease lisenceing, was due to palladiums shaky grasp of intellectual property law. At least in 1997. The blurb in skraypers has been superceded by more recent material, material written after Palladium did do some liscensing material. So yes BtS is once again Rifts past. Just like how in the old marvel movies, Spiderman doesn't exist in the same universe as the X-men, at least in the movies, but exists in the same universe in comic. The reason is simple, it doesn't matter how the cannon is set up internally, when you write the contract, you have to do every thing item by item any way, so for a rifts liscnesed any thing every spell, every item any thing that is trademarked copy righted or marked as such has to be individually mentioned any way, when liscensing it.
so what does that tell us. That Kevin thought that was stupid, and decided to go with his initial idea written for WB4. But hey its not like he is the first nor last fellow to make these mistakes.

Warmaster40k wrote:I think the seperation of all the dimentions in the palladium portfolio to ease lisenceing, was due to palladiums shaky grasp of intellectual property law. At least in 1997. The blurb in skraypers has been superceded by more recent material, material written after Palladium did do some liscensing material. So yes BtS is once again Rifts past. Just like how in the old marvel movies, Spiderman doesn't exist in the same universe as the X-men, at least in the movies, but exists in the same universe in comic. The reason is simple, it doesn't matter how the cannon is set up internally, when you write the contract, you have to do every thing item by item any way, so for a rifts liscnesed any thing every spell, every item any thing that is trademarked copy righted or marked as such has to be individually mentioned any way, when liscensing it.
so what does that tell us. That Kevin thought that was stupid, and decided to go with his initial idea written for WB4. But hey its not like he is the first nor last fellow to make these mistakes.

That must be why the original Marvel Super Heroes RPG actually had nearly a page of fine print listing practically every hero and villain (and I think even locations like Latveria and other Marvel creations) Marvel had at the time with the little TM or Copyright symbol attached.

I have a different question. Is it official or canon or whatever that chaos earth is rifts past?

Chaos Earth is indeed Rifts Earth past.

Alright then. Thanks.

It states implicitly in Rifts that any rift, fade, or ley line storm can transport a person or group of persons through time and space to any point in time, anywhere, such as Phaseworld, Palladium (The Fantasy setting), Wormwood, etc... It may not say those worlds specifically, but, that is the nature of the megaverse. Inexplicable things happen.

That makes me wonder... perhaps the reason TW is around for thousands of years in PW yet was invented on Rifts Earth is because Phase World is set in the future...

Tor wrote:That makes me wonder... perhaps the reason TW is around for thousands of years in PW yet was invented on Rifts Earth is because Phase World is set in the future...

TW?

I remember encountering some ideas that BtS and N&SS (and Mystic China) could be the past of either HU or Nightbane, and that HU or Nightbane could be the past of Chaos Earth. BtS/N&SS have mysticism but it's all hidden and stuff, there's tech but not an overwhelming amount, there's chi and chi magic but it's also kind of hidden. No open super-heroics like HU, no mass takeovers like NB.

Although NB's dark day could certainly happen to an HU world, with heroes generally going underground like they do in Skraypers due to overwhelming numbers making direct overt conflict a problem. I bet Nightlords could actually put a spin on superheroes as being mutant menaces (think anti-X-men stuff) all the while keeping it under wraps that they are even more dangerous and even less human.

As for using Heroes Unlimited, well some of it can be used to represent the past of rifts earth, specifically some of the super soldier programs, robotics and mutant animals; so no mutant/super powers foor the golden age of mankind. I usually put the golden age of mankind in the years 2020-2088. Ninjas and Superspies is 1970's to 2050. Military grade cybernetics won't make an appearance till about mid 2020's. But yeah BtS is the past.

And more importantly, why are are we arguing about this crap? It is what you want it to be. If you don't want it to be the past of Rifts, then, for you , it isn't.

We weren't, for 4 months

^this

i'd like to just throw this little thought into the whole Victor L. time traveler plot. Its possible there are a million Victor L. in the Multi-verse. So one in Rifts earth does not have to be from BTS game to be Victor L. just a thought.

And if you want a certain book or world to be the past have fun with it. its your game.

Here's another thought: What if it's BtS > CE > Rifts > Splicers???
Heroes of Humanity is due to come out. Since the Coalition Always wins, is it possible that they eventually defeat the Rifts like the Seljuk's (Phase World) did? Wiping out all the magic and only humanity survives. Many, many generations later, the humans create the Machine and then come the Splicers. This alternate reality could actually explain some of the alien DNA that is used for the Splicers. Also, explains why there is no magic, psionics or Rift activity in the setting. Just some odd food for thought.

Magic amd psionics are severely hampered in splicers, not likely it is in the continuity of Rifts.

RiftJunkie wrote:Here's another thought: What if it's BtS > CE > Rifts > Splicers???
Heroes of Humanity is due to come out. Since the Coalition Always wins, is it possible that they eventually defeat the Rifts like the Seljuk's (Phase World) did? Wiping out all the magic and only humanity survives. Many, many generations later, the humans create the Machine and then come the Splicers. This alternate reality could actually explain some of the alien DNA that is used for the Splicers. Also, explains why there is no magic, psionics or Rift activity in the setting. Just some odd food for thought.

While that could be an amusing twist for a game......
It would sort of require a MASSIVE redo of the entire Splicers set up.....Especially since isn't this supposed to be a colony world anyway?

The Seljuk wiped out Rifts and ANY future possibility of using magic and their world was as bad or worse than Rifts Earth.

The Splicer world doesn't know if it's Earth or a colony world as part of one it's potential plot twists.

My view is, yes, BtS is the past of CE/Rifts, buuut, alternate earths with parallel pasts exist, like the one the Megaversal legion is from. So you can go back and forth between BtS and Rifts, because you're hitting an alt BtS.

That said, there's only one 'Coming of the Rifts'/Great Cataclysm, since it's a multiversal event, so the only way to bop between CE and Rifts is time travel.

Perhaps ARCHIE is the father of the various machine girls who torment Splicers?

Q99 wrote:My view is, yes, BtS is the past of CE/Rifts, buuut, alternate earths with parallel pasts exist, like the one the Megaversal legion is from. So you can go back and forth between BtS and Rifts, because you're hitting an alt BtS.

That said, there's only one 'Coming of the Rifts'/Great Cataclysm, since it's a multiversal event, so the only way to bop between CE and Rifts is time travel.

Welllllllllll
Except for that whole thing in Rifts Japan about a portal to a parallel Rifts earth.......

eliakon wrote:Welllllllllll
Except for that whole thing in Rifts Japan about a portal to a parallel Rifts earth.......

Where in Japan is that? On page 18 it talks about a portal to a seemingly uninhabited "Earth-like" world but I have not seen anything about a parallel Earth.

Heroes Unlimited, Robotech, TMNT, After the Bomb, System Failure, Ninjas and Super Spies, Dead Reign, Night Bane are all alternate Earths. That said why has no one written an article on the Lazlo Agency circa 2098 CE.

Lo Fung could have been sucked through a rift at the time of the cataclysm, getting sent to Rifts, and though the chance is small, he could have been unaware of it.

That isn't really the text, but it's an explanation. Rifts/Chaos Earth could be the future of BtS also in that way it is the future Lazlo created accidentally by time travel.

Would be amusing.

The Oh So Amazing Nate wrote:I have some of things to say regarding this topic

1. Let's just say for the sake of argument that BTS IS or IS NOT (your choice) the past of Chaos Earth and Rifts. By having the material included or excluded (your choice) from your Chaos Earth and/or Rifts game does it hurt anything? I mean seriously, what PROBLEM is caused by it Being or Not Being the past?

Personally I don't see any harm in it being part of the timeline. It (imho) expands story line possibilities and (as discussed in another thread Non-weapon and Armor items for Chaos Earth) adds in a near infinite (limited only by your imagination) amount of artifacts for your PC's to track down. I can see CS and NonCS groups after the same item although with different goals.

2. I personally CHOOSE to line up all the Human-centric games in a sort of loose slightly overlapping timeline. I understand this idea isn't perfect and it has some fairly obvious holes, but it make some sort of weird sense to me.

PF ----- The lost years (Valley of the Pharaohs maybe?)---- BTS(early 20th century to present age) - N&SS+MC (post WW II to present day) --- HU (WW II to ????) ---- Chaos Earth (folllow book timeline) ---- Rifts (follow book timeline).

If I've left out a game, it's because I don't know enough about it to include it here or think it should be a separate timeline/dimension.

TMNT-->AtB is a separate dimension.

Dead Reign would be an alternate dimension where DR took the place of HU [Same goes for System Failure and Nightbane.] (what would follow in that sequence I don't know.)

Splicers I don't know enough about.

Yup, yup, yup, nope

AtB was original NOT a different dimension and the original book even had a comic where the master of some mutants was an OLD Raphael. It still isn't except that the TMNT license isn't present so it just isn't mentioned and has been scrubbed from the record.

I have no doubt that there is a Lo Fung and a Victor Lazlo in BtS. Likewise, the chances of a Lo Fung and a Victor Lazlo in Rifts/CE have a great chance as to having existing there too. And the relationship between the two groups could be so similar that if the BtS Lo Fung and the Rifts Victor Lazlo were to meet, they may initially think they know each other.

Just like how we know how a version of Clint Eastwood existed in Rifts past (New West, i think). Heck, we know for sure a version of the Sundance Kid existed in Rifts Earth past since the character literally shows up in New West. But that does not mean they are the same exact characters as our Earth's real Clint Eastwood and Sundance Kid.

Alrik Vas wrote:Lo Fung could have been sucked through a rift at the time of the cataclysm, getting sent to Rifts, and though the chance is small, he could have been unaware of it.

That isn't really the text, but it's an explanation. Rifts/Chaos Earth could be the future of BtS also in that way it is the future Lazlo created accidentally by time travel.

Would be amusing.

Victor Lazlo's disappearance on the Indian mound would have very little effect on the outcome that produced Chaos Earth. If Victor hadn't traveled he would have still, for the most part been considered a nut and discredited by his peers. At the most he may have published some books that MAY have helped the U.S. deal with the supernatural. Travel to the future just put him in a time and place where his ideas matter and grants him the ultimate reward for anyone dealing in abstracts... justification.