Time Travel Game

LostOne · Unread post by **LostOne** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:22 am

I had an idea for a campaign where the characters live in a post-apocalyptic future where the world is dominated by villains and everyone just tries to avoid notice and survive. The villains are simple too powerful to be stood up to by the surviving heroes, all the heroes that had a chance were brilliantly eliminated by the villains almost overnight.

The characters are supers who are recruited by a genius to travel back in time using a device he has created. The device throws them into the timestream and homes in on events of historical significance that had mutant involvement. The desperate plan being that if the group can do enough good in the past they might change history enough that the villains never succeed, whether it is preventing a disaster that blackened the heart of a super who then became one of the villains instead of a force of good, or perhaps a champion of good died in the disaster and the players can make enough of a difference to save his life.

So I'm looking for suggestions on historical events that can have a superpowered twist added to it, as well as events that merely changing the outcome could greatly change history for the better.

A few examples that came to mind without me examining them would be: assassinating Hitler, preventing the World Trade Center tragedy of 9/11, preventing assassinations (Abraham Lincoln, JFK), etc. Made up events could be the creation of a super-soldier program that produced one of the super villains and the players need to destroy it or eliminate the key minds behind it.

I'm thinking to increase the difficulty the players will be encouraged to try to avoid deaths, instead changing peoples minds, etc. In the cases where the people can't be budged, then to make any deaths appear to be mundane accidents (car crash, etc) or completely disappear the victim so they are just a Missing Person.

Yes, this was inspired by certain movie in theaters right now. The post apocalyptic world is inspired by a Marvel what-if series.

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:00 am

Actually assassinating Hitler would be a bad idea, since it was his growing insanity that helped contribute to Germany losing the war, without his interference they might have won WWII. There's also some reluctance on the part of many to try and do such 'yeah we stopped 9/11' or 'we stopped WWII' stories as it can be perceived as disrespectful (not sure but I believe that's even commented on in one of the Palladium books).

Instead of changing larger events that stand out like that look up various plane crashes, bridge disasters, etc. Moments where someone who seemed insignificant actually would have played a larger role in the world if only they hadn't died before that moment happened. There are at least a few recent crashes that have taken out leaders and dignitaries that could be seen as branch points. Maybe the heroes have to ensure that a cease fire that was broken (like the problems between Israel and Palestine) isn't to lead to a more beneficial resolution.

So which Marvel Apocalypse are you referencing? With the lightning strike executions of nearly all major heroes I assume you're talking about Deathlok's timeline as it resulted from Nth Command doing a coordinated strike that gated various superhero groups like the X-men and Avengers into realities instantly lethal to them leaving the world in disarray.

LostOne · Unread post by **LostOne** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:07 am

So the TMNT book had a list of historical events to toy with? That *would* be useful. Maybe I can find a used copy at a local store or on ebay.

As for the Marvel what-if, it was Old Man Logan. The storyline takes place somewhere around 2050 or 2060 and the heroes have pretty much all been wiped out except for a few that are laying low. Wolverine hasn't popped his claws since the night everyone at Xavier mansion was killed and is an empty shell of an old man who used to be a hero. It's been a while since I read it but if I remember right the US is divided up and ruled by The Hulk (and his idiot kids), Dr Doom, Red Skull and Magneto. Events happen that cause Wolverine to become a hero again and attack the system.

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:23 am

Transdimensional TMNT does have certain historical periods given a brief overview as well as listing some possible branch points in history to develop alternate histories for divergent worlds to visit. It also contains various skills for time travelers and lists a number of period weapons on top of that. Makes for a good resource for time travel even shorn of the TMNT-relevant material.

Haven't read that Old Man Logan story, dropped most Marvel titles after the 90s kicked in and especially the X-men became just to dark and angsty to be anything but depressing for me to read. I have read a bit of commentary on it (including the trouble with the Hulk and She-Hulk and the writer having no idea how genetics work thinking that just because they're cousins they'd have to produce idiot kids when that's a result of long term in-breeding and both Hulk and She-Hulk have superior genetics making it even less likely they'd produce idiot kids) but that's about it.

Sounds like you're looking more towards the Deathlok style future though, since you've got that single stroke strike on the heroes like happened to create his timeline (Captain America managed to avert it in the main timeline once he learned from Deathlok after going to his future what caused it to happen). Seems like you're also trying something of an Exiles type deal, or Quantum Leap with the heroes traveling into the past to tweak events in order to change their future. Depending on how complicated you want or can handle things keep in mind that if the characters are popping about forward and backward in time that they should deal with the consequences of these changes, namely they might find that because they changed event A in 1999 before they changed event B in 1998 they made Event A fail and have to fix it again but can't fix it the same way.

LostOne · Unread post by **LostOne** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:32 am

Well they will hit multiple points in the past. And the villains will be my own making so I can avoid any fanboy rules lawyering (there are one or two players in the group I'm sure would rage against me misusing Magneto). So I won't be converting anything, just using the concept as a basis. Plus they won't spend much time in that time, the game is being built around trying to prevent that from happening.

I also thought it was odd that the two Hulks were geniuses and the inbreeding resulted in such stupid kids. But the What-If lines are for fun and shouldn't be taken seriously even by the fanboys (although I'm sure many of them do).

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:56 am

LostOne wrote:Well they will hit multiple points in the past. And the villains will be my own making so I can avoid any fanboy rules lawyering (there are one or two players in the group I'm sure would rage against me misusing Magneto). So I won't be converting anything, just using the concept as a basis. Plus they won't spend much time in that time, the game is being built around trying to prevent that from happening.

I also thought it was odd that the two Hulks were geniuses and the inbreeding resulted in such stupid kids. But the What-If lines are for fun and shouldn't be taken seriously even by the fanboys (although I'm sure many of them do).

Well Jennifer's not a genius, she's only above average (enough to do well in Law School) but she's certainly not stupid. The biggest concern between related people having kids is that if they have any genetic defects it vastly increases the chance of the child having then as active problems. But take any two cousins and it's rare that them having kids would result in any genetic problems and unless it was a specific defect for it no risk of idiocy. Even brother and sister is low-risk if there's no family history of genetic disorders. So the writer was an idiot writing the kids as idiots when they'd more likely be normal or above normal intelligence.

I don't care for many of the what-ifs since the 90s, it's like they go looking to show you that 'yeah sure we did this miserable thing in the main stories to this/these character(s) but we're going to make it even worse in this what-if so you can know how much more miserable we could have written it so you'll not complain lest we make things that horrible'. I swear for their flagship character Spider-man has suffered the worst abuse in the what-if titles, and as much as he suffers in the main ones you have to work extra hard to make the what-ifs even more horribly miserable.

AlanGunhouse · Unread post by **AlanGunhouse** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:13 pm

My suggestion: START with a different timeline, one where history was different, and have the characters trying to make is closer to our own.

Kovoston · Unread post by **Kovoston** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:35 pm

You may want to give the hero a bit of a blessing from Zurvan (possibly in the form of a psionic power). Make it so he can remember all the details and not forget the new/old timeline when he fights to restore the anomaly/paradox (unless you want that to occur after the new timeline is ressurected). Zurvan has never liked alternate timelines (they hold the stench of Chaos - and we all know what ancient being serves Chaos don't we?).

Enjoy, wish I could join you!
G

LostOne · Unread post by **LostOne** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:04 am

Thanks for the ideas and comments everyone. I'm still looking for that Transdimensional TMNT book, but I only managed to hit one store after work yesterday.

If anyone has more ideas, please add them here.

Rallan · Unread post by **Rallan** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:43 am

Golden rule of time travel in RPGs.

Do not repeat DO NOT attempt to run a campaign where causality is fixed, and where everything will manage (through a convoluted and extremely clever turn of events) happen exactly the way it was supposed to all along. This just cannot be done in RPGs, because the player characters will screw up something important even if they're trying to go along with the premise. A heroic plan to stop the JFK assassination that's supposed to end with the PCs accidentally shooting JFK? That's not gonna happen. And if it does, they'll probably find a way to accidentally collapse the book depository as well, which means you're hosed.

LostOne · Unread post by **LostOne** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:47 am

Rallan wrote:Golden rule of time travel in RPGs.

Do not repeat DO NOT attempt to run a campaign where causality is fixed, and where everything will manage (through a convoluted and extremely clever turn of events) happen exactly the way it was supposed to all along. This just cannot be done in RPGs, because the player characters will screw up something important even if they're trying to go along with the premise. A heroic plan to stop the JFK assassination that's supposed to end with the PCs accidentally shooting JFK? That's not gonna happen. And if it does, they'll probably find a way to accidentally collapse the book depository as well, which means you're hosed.

That wasn't my intention. If a GM ran something like that for me I'd be pretty mad.

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:48 am

Rallan wrote:Golden rule of time travel in RPGs.

Do not repeat DO NOT attempt to run a campaign where causality is fixed, and where everything will manage (through a convoluted and extremely clever turn of events) happen exactly the way it was supposed to all along. This just cannot be done in RPGs, because the player characters will screw up something important even if they're trying to go along with the premise. A heroic plan to stop the JFK assassination that's supposed to end with the PCs accidentally shooting JFK? That's not gonna happen. And if it does, they'll probably find a way to accidentally collapse the book depository as well, which means you're hosed.

Or as is seen in some time travel stories they stop Hinkley only to find out that there really was a 2nd shooter and Kennedy dies anyway. Interestingly there's an old sci-fi novel dealing with time travel where the protagonist is part of an agency that has to travel through time ensuring events happen a particular way to ensure their future and because history is a river they end up having to repeat this (apparently with new agents) from time to time to keep that river flowing in that new way. One of the points of things is the protagonist stops the Kennedy assassination. The twist? He's an agent of an evil totalitarian future so saving Kennedy is one of the factors that ensures its existence and he's from an altered time-line and finds he has to stop the changes and let time return to its rightful path.

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:50 am

LostOne wrote:
Rallan wrote:Golden rule of time travel in RPGs.

Do not repeat DO NOT attempt to run a campaign where causality is fixed, and where everything will manage (through a convoluted and extremely clever turn of events) happen exactly the way it was supposed to all along. This just cannot be done in RPGs, because the player characters will screw up something important even if they're trying to go along with the premise. A heroic plan to stop the JFK assassination that's supposed to end with the PCs accidentally shooting JFK? That's not gonna happen. And if it does, they'll probably find a way to accidentally collapse the book depository as well, which means you're hosed.

That wasn't my intention. If a GM ran something like that for me I'd be pretty mad.

Understandable, there are many things that work in novels but can't work in an RPG because they require the players to endure things that aren't going to be fun or downright infuriating; one of those being in the position that everything they do is totally and completely wasted effort and things will happen a particular way no matter what they do.

LostOne · Unread post by **LostOne** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:26 pm

amodernheathen wrote:Everyone focuses on Hitler. Understandable, really He was a mass-murdering-***head. Who wouldn't want to beat his head in?

But if you want to stop World War 2, why not stop World War 1? Save Arch Duke Ferdinand, and you can prevent the war that broke Germany in the first place.

Probably because everyone (such as myself) who automatically jumps to assassinating Hitler as an easy way to make a huge impact on history doesn't know their history enough to know that would have been a possibility.

AlanGunhouse · Unread post by **AlanGunhouse** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:23 pm

Anyone Here ever run into a game called Feng Shui. In that, there is limited time travel, but changing the past is not as easy as killing someone's grandfather. You actually have to alter the social forces (done by changing who controls the main feng shui sites) in order to have any significant effect on time. I said Significant, if you killed Hitler's Grandfather in 1856, then come back to 1996...World War 2 would happen exactly the same except the name of he person in charge and a few cosmetic changes. If you go back and kill your own grandfather, you come back and find your own name changed, and a few different ancestors...NOTHING ELSE.

But, if you go back and put an ally in charge of a major Feng Shui site, you might come back and find a lot has changed...

Rallan · Unread post by **Rallan** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 10:52 pm

amodernheathen wrote:Everyone focuses on Hitler. Understandable, really He was a mass-murdering-***head. Who wouldn't want to beat his head in?

Everybody kills Hitler on their first trip.

Sgt Anjay · Unread post by **Sgt Anjay** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:59 pm

Everyone tries to. Unfortunately.

AlanGunhouse · Unread post by **AlanGunhouse** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 6:17 am

As noted though...it really would not have made much of an impact...the catalytic event is less important than the social forces that caused the event. Saving the Archduke would have little real impact, for the same reason Killing Hitler would...because they did not CAUSE the conditions, only provided a focus...if not them another focus would have been found.

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:12 pm

Rhomphaia wrote:
amodernheathen wrote:Everyone focuses on Hitler. Understandable, really He was a mass-murdering-***head. Who wouldn't want to beat his head in?

But if you want to stop World War 2, why not stop World War 1? Save Arch Duke Ferdinand, and you can prevent the war that broke Germany in the first place. Then Hitler would not have had a desperate and beaten people seeking to blame anyone and everyone for their poverty. Without that environment, Hitler is just like any other hate monger, and can, if still desired, be killed without vastly altering the framework of jack all. heck, in this alternate history Germany, Hitler might not have joined the army. He may have just gotten some counseling, or a few art lessons, and gone on with his life as a productive and rational citizen.

Plus, what hero wouldn't prefer saving a life to taking one? (That guy doesn't count. That one either.)

Wow, someone who knows their history. Now I wonder what effect that stopping WWI would have had on preventing the Vietnam War, quite substantial unless I am entirely mistaken.

Consider that WWII's main creator was that Germany suffered too punitive a treatment from the global community. The harsh sanctions created such hardship it left the people willing to follow anyone who could provide them a chance at a comfortable living once again and secure future for their children.

Also remember that Hitler did not kill six million plus jews and various sundry other victims, that was an entire organization of people who collectively were guilty of actually committing those murders. Killing him might feel nice but wouldn't save a single life unless you count his GF not dying alongside him at the end of WWII. You'd have to take out all the people running the Death camps and other sundry extermination programs to actually protect and save anyone. Got to take out the structure that makes the murders possible, taking out the figurehead won't do that.

AlanGunhouse · Unread post by **AlanGunhouse** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 3:02 pm

Admittedly, if the reparations on Germany for WW1 had not been so harsh, there might not have been a WW2...

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 3:07 pm

AlanGunhouse wrote:Admittedly, if the reparations on Germany for WW1 had not been so harsh, there might not have been a WW2...

Something that makes the alternate reality/time travel stories so complex because there's so much that may change and change in odd ways and other things you'd think should change but might not at all. I remember one time travel story where a man was part of a time travel program going into the past to recover a lost work of a famous playwright. He fails to retrieve it but awakes in the future in a hospital bed and learns he had changed history as the attempted theft of a 'worthless' play at the time resulted in it becoming not lost at all and quite popular. Unfortunately this change in the timeline he's horrified to learn brought about the death of his wife as she died in the car accident they had in the new timeline going to the play. He remembers none of the new timeline and of course everyone thinks he's a bit off for claiming he was part of a time travel experiment and the cause of the play's popularity as part of some denial of things.

AlanGunhouse · Unread post by **AlanGunhouse** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 3:13 pm

I recall a TV show I saw where someone decided to destroy a rival by sending an android back into the past to keep the rival's parents from meeting. It worked fine...except that it also erased his own existence

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:06 pm

AlanGunhouse wrote:I recall a TV show I saw where someone decided to destroy a rival by sending an android back into the past to keep the rival's parents from meeting. It worked fine...except that it also erased his own existence

An interesting story in the old Isaac Asimov Science Fiction Magazine starts with a man walking into his home to find his wife making out with his research assistant. Being a genius he decides to use his newly developed time machine to pop into the past and kill off his ancestor figuring it'd be an untraceable crime. So he talks with his sentient AI super-computer and heads off kills the ancestor, returns, and walks in to find his wife still locked into a heated embrace making out with the assistant. Confused he kills another ancestor still nothing so he starts in a spree killing off various people in the past including the dinosaurs and eventually gets so frustrated he simply walks back to the present day (and misses the fact how that shouldn't work) and finds that he's now no longer tangible (his computer can still communicate with him though, courtesy of its temporal sensors). At this point he encounters a genius temporal researcher who'd gone missing some years before and discovers that everyone's history is personal to them and once you destroy enough of it you see to exist as part of normal reality (obviously the guy had done his own slaughter to end up that way). So the other guy tells him to get over it and looks like his wife's going to be pretty happy without him.

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:32 pm

Rhomphaia wrote:
AlanGunhouse wrote:Admittedly, if the reparations on Germany for WW1 had not been so harsh, there might not have been a WW2...

Exactly, if the French and to a certain extent the Americans, hadn't have been such hard-asses, then almost every major conflict up to the Gulf War may have been averted. The Treaty of Versailles was a watershed moment for most of the 20th century to be honest.

If you want to stop a lot of bad ****, stop or alter this treaty signing.

Need to follow up keeping Stalin from becoming ruler of Russia, otherwise you'd still end up with a second WW, only it'd be Russia instigating it rather than Germany, although thankfully not as likely we'd see a Pearl Harbor although the Japanese might still make that mistake.

AlanGunhouse · Unread post by **AlanGunhouse** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:40 pm

Nightmask wrote:
Rhomphaia wrote:
AlanGunhouse wrote:Admittedly, if the reparations on Germany for WW1 had not been so harsh, there might not have been a WW2...

Exactly, if the French and to a certain extent the Americans, hadn't have been such hard-asses, then almost every major conflict up to the Gulf War may have been averted. The Treaty of Versailles was a watershed moment for most of the 20th century to be honest.

If you want to stop a lot of bad ****, stop or alter this treaty signing.

Need to follow up keeping Stalin from becoming ruler of Russia, otherwise you'd still end up with a second WW, only it'd be Russia instigating it rather than Germany, although thankfully not as likely we'd see a Pearl Harbor although the Japanese might still make that mistake.

If I recall, Russia was already undergoing the revolution before the treaty...not sure when Stalin officially took over.

AlanGunhouse · Unread post by **AlanGunhouse** » Sun Jun 26, 2011 4:47 pm

Actually, the Japanese invasion of China was due to Japanese ability to import the raw materials to support their burgeoning industrial base being restricted. The only way to prevent the Japanese aggression would have been to allow them more free trade for resources...assuming they had enough things TO trade.

Rumor has it the Japanese were tricked into attacking Pearl Harbor, because of a Presidental promise that we would not enter the war unless we ourselves were attacked. The story (no proof of this that I know) is that the Japanese were allowed to get a "secret memo" that an American Bomber wing was going to be moved into position for a flank attack on Japan and would be landing at Pearl Harbor for refueling just hours after the Japanese attack.

AlanGunhouse · Unread post by **AlanGunhouse** » Sun Jun 26, 2011 7:24 pm

Tesla was probably smarter than Edison, but was not as well known.

LostOne · Unread post by **LostOne** » Sun Jun 26, 2011 7:49 pm

Tesla is so obvious for this game I completely forgot about him. Thank you, he's definitely going to be in somehow. Possibly to help repair their time travel device after it gets damaged.

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Sun Jun 26, 2011 11:24 pm

AlanGunhouse wrote:Tesla was probably smarter than Edison, but was not as well known.

Yet he did give us AC, Edison was pushing DC even though its limitations would have never given us the advanced society we have today if he'd held sway.

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:59 am

Rhomphaia wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
AlanGunhouse wrote:Tesla was probably smarter than Edison, but was not as well known.

Yet he did give us AC, Edison was pushing DC even though its limitations would have never given us the advanced society we have today if he'd held sway.

That and the electrical infrastructure of, well, basically the world, is built on Tesla's model, not Edison's.

Edison did give us the Electric Chair though, ironically to demonize AC as dangerous and promote DC but instead he simply gave the Government the idea of executing using AC rather than hanging or firing squads (but given such sorts often kind of miss how reality works we can understand how he completely missed the idea that the government would take his idea of the Electric Chair and actually embrace it).

Specter · Unread post by **Specter** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:21 pm

Pearl Harbor but with a squadron of flying soldiers with laser vision.

Also make one of the crazy powerful supervillians have time travel powers and start hunting the heroes down when he realizes what is going on. This builds a sense of urgency. As at any moment the big bad will be able to track them down in that time stream so there is a time limit to be able to do what ever they need to do in each historical event before all hell rains down on them.

Severus Snape · Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:14 pm

Everyone goes after the majorly bad historical events and tries to stop them. What would happen if you went back and stopped something from happening that ended up being good? I can think of several things that make good examples, but try this on for size:

What happens if the heroes go back and inadvertently prevent the colonies from revolting against the British?

Just because the heroes are time travelling doesn't mean that they are always going to make the best decisions. They could try to stop JFK's assassination, but end up causing it. Or worse, they stop it and JFK lives, able to harden sanctions on Russia and Cuba. Or worse than that, JFK sends America to war against Russia and Cuba - something he couldn't have done if he were killed.

My point is that the characters may not always succeed in stopping the event they want to stop. Or they may stop it and the outcome is far worse than what originally happened.

Specter · Unread post by **Specter** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:46 pm

How does their time travel work? Do they have to go back to home base before each port or do they just leap from one time to another getting missions from the genius back in their own time? If the latter at one point a supervillian can find the genius and replace him. Then starts sending back questionable missions.

LostOne · Unread post by **LostOne** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:58 pm

Specter wrote:How does their time travel work? Do they have to go back to home base before each port or do they just leap from one time to another getting missions from the genius back in their own time? If the latter at one point a supervillian can find the genius and replace him. Then starts sending back questionable missions.

It's sort of Quantum Leap style, they finish a mission and leap to the next. They would have no way of getting back to stop the supervillain once they determined the missions were wrong.

Specter · Unread post by **Specter** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:07 am

That sounds pretty terrifying if they come to the conclusion that the supervillian is in control of their leaping. They would have to find a way to set things right without being able to head back. (ie send a letter of warning to their genius friend). Or get a tech or magic user to help them get to the future.

LostOne · Unread post by **LostOne** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:05 am

Specter wrote:That sounds pretty terrifying if they come to the conclusion that the supervillian is in control of their leaping. They would have to find a way to set things right without being able to head back. (ie send a letter of warning to their genius friend). Or get a tech or magic user to help them get to the future.

The device isn't controlled from the future. It has a very ambiguous system that launches them into the time stream and homes in on significant branchings of the timeline that have a mutant bio-energy associated with it.

But I do wonder how long it'll take the players to figure out the human genius that designed the device and sent them back has the ulterior motive that they will be committing genocide on the most powerful mutants in history thus thinning the bloodlines that have the mutation gene and reducing the overall numbers and power levels of the mutants in the time they are from, with the hope being it will remove the warlords completely or at least drastically weaken their power.

Stone Gargoyle · Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:34 pm

Time travel requires a LOT of pregame planning and writing of multiple timelines, which would be altered anytime your heroes did anything in the past. They can be quite fun, but also a lo9t of work for the GM.

AlanGunhouse · Unread post by **AlanGunhouse** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:30 am

Whether the time travel would effect the current number of mutants depends on one main question: whether the mutants eliminated ever had children.

LostOne · Unread post by **LostOne** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:00 pm

AlanGunhouse wrote:Whether the time travel would effect the current number of mutants depends on one main question: whether the mutants eliminated ever had children.

Right, and the players have no way of knowing if they did or not. I'm hoping for a lot of moral debating among the group.

Stone Gargoyle · Wed Jun 29, 2011 3:05 pm

Events are changed by a lot more than what kids you have. Interactions with people change their decisions and what they do, which affect events and change the timline.

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 3:11 pm

Stone Gargoyle wrote:Events are changed by a lot more than what kids you have. Interactions with people change their decisions and what they do, which affect events and change the timline.

Not really, if your kids were key forces for change eliminating you eliminates their impact. Just like if you prevented Martin Luthor King (either one) from being born a key part history is lost, causing events to change so that decades or centuries might be required to make up for that loss.

Specter · Unread post by **Specter** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:21 pm

Nightmask wrote:
Stone Gargoyle wrote:Events are changed by a lot more than what kids you have. Interactions with people change their decisions and what they do, which affect events and change the timline.

Not really, if your kids were key forces for change eliminating you eliminates their impact. Just like if you prevented Martin Luthor King (either one) from being born a key part history is lost, causing events to change so that decades or centuries might be required to make up for that loss.

He was just saying that there is more to changing history than the kids people have. A very slight change can have a dramatic impact.

Stone Gargoyle · Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:35 pm

Nightmask wrote:
Stone Gargoyle wrote:Events are changed by a lot more than what kids you have. Interactions with people change their decisions and what they do, which affect events and change the timline.

Not really, if your kids were key forces for change eliminating you eliminates their impact. Just like if you prevented Martin Luthor King (either one) from being born a key part history is lost, causing events to change so that decades or centuries might be required to make up for that loss.

Whatever. That sounds overly simplistic. Conditions of the times influence people, so killing one person might not even stop the event from occurring, since someone else might step up in their place.

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:47 pm

Stone Gargoyle wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
Stone Gargoyle wrote:Events are changed by a lot more than what kids you have. Interactions with people change their decisions and what they do, which affect events and change the timline.

Not really, if your kids were key forces for change eliminating you eliminates their impact. Just like if you prevented Martin Luthor King (either one) from being born a key part history is lost, causing events to change so that decades or centuries might be required to make up for that loss.
Whatever. That sounds overly simplistic. Conditions of the times influence people, so killing one person might not even stop the event from occurring, since someone else might step up in their place.

It's overly simplistic to simply handwave away the idea that individuals count and things are just going to happen just because and anyone can just swap in to take their place. A single man can reshape the world, for good or ill, by inspiring or dominating others. Jonestown wouldn't have occurred if he were to never be or been stopped before creating his cult, no one would have just appeared to take his place and make it happen anyway. While some events have a certain social inertia to them it's overly simplistic to act as if all such events are going to happen and the key people involved aren't important at all. That position makes light of those individuals as being nothing special and anyone could have done what they did which just isn't so.

csyphrett · Unread post by **csyphrett** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:03 pm

As noted, make a timeline for your game. Make changes to your timeline. Maybe one of your guys gets killed during an event because one of his ancestors got killed.

When I ran time travel events, i let the players know they could kill the planet with one wrong move.
CES