Pumping PPE...take 2

[Subjugator]

Psychics can charge the weapons.

Not with their PPE therefore no link.

The mechanism for their ability to use is different. I'm not in the military (one of the possible qualifiers to carry a concealed weapon in my state), but I still carry through another mechanism. That does not remove the need to qualify, it merely qualifies under a different segment of law.

The ability to charge and the ability to use are still linked. A psychic can charge and use. It's just not through PPE that the psychic can charge it.

[Subjugator]

What book is the Queenston rifle in and is it a NORMAL TW ITEM?

If it's not a normal TW item, it's not pertinent to this conversation. We're not talking about the exceptions to the rule - we're talking about the adherents to it.

CS Navy.
It is pertinent because TM is trying to link use and charge.
Since they can use them but not charge them there is no link.

And what about psychics?
Then we have the Splugorth TW weapons.
Used by blind Warrior Women but they can't charge them.

No link.

Umm...the Queenston musket is SPECIFICALLY denoted as being an exception to the rule. It's invalid for this comparison.

[Dr. Doom III]

Psychics can charge the weapons.

Not with their PPE therefore no link.

The mechanism for their ability to use is different. I'm not in the military (one of the possible qualifiers to carry a concealed weapon in my state), but I still carry through another mechanism. That does not remove the need to qualify, it merely qualifies under a different segment of law.

The ability to charge and the ability to use are still linked. A psychic can charge and use. It's just not through PPE that the psychic can charge it.

TM said being able to use TW items means you can use your PPE to power them and I found three examples of people using them but not being able to use their PPE.

Linkage debunked.

[Temporalmage]

TM said being able to use TW items means you can use your PPE to power them and I found three examples of people using them but not being able to use their PPE.

Linkage debunked.

No it's not. I can debunk anything you could possibly state in exactly the same way you did. By giving examples that didn't apply to the discussion at hand.

1. We are discussing normal TW items, not those that anyone can use anyway.
2. We are discussing PPE, not ISP as it apply's to psycics.

Both your Queenston musket and Blind Warrior Woman amulate comments fall into catagory 1.

And your psycic comment falls into catagory 2.

Not debunked at all. Sorry.

Debunk the following if you can:
(Readers Digest version of the BOM page 21, as it applys to this conversation.) "Anyone who can draw upon mystical forces or tap thier own PPE can power and use TW devices. Likewise, those who are open to the supernatural or have large amounts of PPE may be able to power and use TW items."
(From the Splynn book, page 21)Discussing the Magic in a Vial: "Drinking it provides the imbiber with 20 extra PPE. It is commonly used by practinioners of magic to replenish lost PPE or as a booster before combat, but it can also be used by ordinary peaple to, momentarialy, use TW devices."

Point 1: Dragon Juicers can draw upon mystical forces when they regenerate, use thier supernatural strength, or drink dragons blood. In fact thier very existance is "drawing on supernatural forces", the dragons blood that courses through thier veins!!
Point 2: Dragon Juicers are open to the supernatural when they can see the invisable, and take double damage from weapons specifically anti-dragon.
Point 3: The magic water only grants 20 PPE, nothing more. No learning, special abilities, or anything. Just the 20 PPE.
Point 4: Dragon Juicers have a minimum of 20 PPE and a max of 80 PPE. Far more than an "ordinary" person could have even after drinking that special water.
Point 5: Dragon Juicers can't learn magic, but that wouldn't stop em from USING magic such as a Rune weapon, or magic sword. Nor does the book state that they CAN'T use TW items. Learning magic and using magic are two seperate things.


By the way, it's ironic that the water I've mentioned wouldn't work on a Dragon Juicer at all.

[Mack]

Here's my view on things.

(Readers Digest version of the BOM page 21, as it applys to this conversation.) "Anyone who can draw upon mystical forces or tap thier own PPE can power and use TW devices. Likewise, those who are open to the supernatural or have large amounts of PPE may be able to power and use TW items."

The above passage has three qualifiers (thanks to TM for the quote):

1. Anyone who can draw upon mystical forces or tap their own PPE.
2. those who are open to the supernatural
3. have large amounts of PPE

- I haven't seen any evidence that a DJ falls under #1.

- A DJ might fall under #2 (due to the dragon blood and all) but I believe this actually refers to a Mystic's openness to the S/N, or a Witch's (etc...).

- Which leaves us with #3. The problem here is just how much is "large" amounts of PPE? 20? 60? 140? It's ambiguous.

Regardless, all three qualifiers are followed by "may be able to power and use TW items."

If that's not ambiguous/unknown/GM's call, I don't know what is.

[Devjannz]

See, while I disagree with you, you're being logically consistent at the very least. Doom is saying that if someone kidnapped a DJ and gave him a Tattoo, he'd magically (hehe) be able to channel his PPE thenceforth. You're saying he'd have to learn how.

What is it that you disagree with exactly?

[Jesterzzn]

- Which leaves us with #3. The problem here is just how much is "large" amounts of PPE? 20? 60? 140? It's ambiguous.

Regardless, all three qualifiers are followed by "may be able to power and use TW items."

If that's not ambiguous/unknown/GM's call, I don't know what is.

The problem is Splynn Dimentional Market gives us an example of 20 PPE being enough to power and use TW items. See the Water Merchant. If 20 is enough, and since that happens to be on the low end for Dragon Juicers, you have to say its pretty solid that they infact can power and use TW items.

[Mack]

- Which leaves us with #3. The problem here is just how much is "large" amounts of PPE? 20? 60? 140? It's ambiguous.

Regardless, all three qualifiers are followed by "may be able to power and use TW items."

If that's not ambiguous/unknown/GM's call, I don't know what is.

The problem is Splynn Dimentional Market gives us an example of 20 PPE being enough to power and use TW items. See the Water Merchant. If 20 is enough, and since that happens to be on the low end for Dragon Juicers, you have to say its pretty solid that they infact can power and use TW items.

Please see my earlier comment regarding the "Special Water."

[Dr. Doom III]

The problem is Splynn Dimentional Market gives us an example of 20 PPE being enough to power and use TW items. See the Water Merchant. If 20 is enough, and since that happens to be on the low end for Dragon Juicers, you have to say its pretty solid that they infact can power and use TW items.

It doesn't say anything about powering.

[Temporalmage]

The problem is Splynn Dimentional Market gives us an example of 20 PPE being enough to power and use TW items. See the Water Merchant. If 20 is enough, and since that happens to be on the low end for Dragon Juicers, you have to say its pretty solid that they infact can power and use TW items.

It doesn't say anything about powering.

Ok Doom. Lets see what would happen if you had your way.

Player who's character is a thief with no psionic nor magic abilities: "My character is going to drink a vial of Magic in a Vial that he got at the Splynn Market."

GM: "Ok your charcter now has 20 PPE and can use TW items."

Player: "Cool, I'll borrow the cybernights Flaming Sword and hack at the enemy!"

GM: "Sorry, but the book says you can "USE" TW stuff, not power them up. So ya can't use the Flaming Sword."

Player: "Um..thats dumb but OK. How about I use the Ley Line Walkers TK Machine gun?"

GM: "Sorry, but it's out of PPE and you can't pump your PPE into it to use it."

Player: "Well what the heck?@!?!@# The Book says I can use TW items, so why can't I use TW items??? What kind a horse hockey IS this????"



Gee, not a pretty sight is it? I know that logic and Rifts don't always mix, but lets not throw it totally out the window shall we? If a mundane can use TW items, then they would obviously be able to power them up to use them.

If I tell somone that they can use my truck I give em the keys. I dont' wait to see if by some chance of DNA they happen to have Telemechanics!!! DUH!

[Subjugator]

Psychics can charge the weapons.

Not with their PPE therefore no link.

The mechanism for their ability to use is different. I'm not in the military (one of the possible qualifiers to carry a concealed weapon in my state), but I still carry through another mechanism. That does not remove the need to qualify, it merely qualifies under a different segment of law.

The ability to charge and the ability to use are still linked. A psychic can charge and use. It's just not through PPE that the psychic can charge it.

TM said being able to use TW items means you can use your PPE to power them and I found three examples of people using them but not being able to use their PPE.

Linkage debunked.

Wrong - it was also specifically said that we're talking ordinary TW items from the main book. Technically, even the Blind Warrior Women don't apply to that comparison, but I'm giving it because the weapons aren't being listed as exceptional.

Show us NON-EXCEPTIONAL examples and they'll be valid. So far, only your BWW one is valid.

[Subjugator]

See, while I disagree with you, you're being logically consistent at the very least. Doom is saying that if someone kidnapped a DJ and gave him a Tattoo, he'd magically (hehe) be able to channel his PPE thenceforth. You're saying he'd have to learn how.

What is it that you disagree with exactly?

I let T-Men use TW weapons - ditto DJs.

[Judas]

This is one of those things that will never be decided unless we go to the top! [straights his T-shirt and prepares to march]

[Dr. Doom III]

The problem is Splynn Dimentional Market gives us an example of 20 PPE being enough to power and use TW items. See the Water Merchant. If 20 is enough, and since that happens to be on the low end for Dragon Juicers, you have to say its pretty solid that they infact can power and use TW items.

It doesn't say anything about powering.

Ok Doom. Lets see what would happen if you had your way.

Player who's character is a thief with no psionic nor magic abilities: "My character is going to drink a vial of Magic in a Vial that he got at the Splynn Market."

GM: "Ok your charcter now has 20 PPE and can use TW items."

Player: "Cool, I'll borrow the cybernights Flaming Sword and hack at the enemy!"

GM: "Sorry, but the book says you can "USE" TW stuff, not power them up. So ya can't use the Flaming Sword."

Player: "Um..thats dumb but OK. How about I use the Ley Line Walkers TK Machine gun?"

GM: "Sorry, but it's out of PPE and you can't pump your PPE into it to use it."

Player: "Well what the heck?@!?!@# The Book says I can use TW items, so why can't I use TW items??? What kind a horse hockey IS this????"



Gee, not a pretty sight is it? I know that logic and Rifts don't always mix, but lets not throw it totally out the window shall we? If a mundane can use TW items, then they would obviously be able to power them up to use them.

If I tell somone that they can use my truck I give em the keys. I dont' wait to see if by some chance of DNA they happen to have Telemechanics!!! DUH!

What is stopping the Cyber Knight or Ley Line Walker from charging them up for him?
Absolutely nothing.

[Temporalmage]

The problem is Splynn Dimentional Market gives us an example of 20 PPE being enough to power and use TW items. See the Water Merchant. If 20 is enough, and since that happens to be on the low end for Dragon Juicers, you have to say its pretty solid that they infact can power and use TW items.

It doesn't say anything about powering.

Ok Doom. Lets see what would happen if you had your way.

Player who's character is a thief with no psionic nor magic abilities: "My character is going to drink a vial of Magic in a Vial that he got at the Splynn Market."

GM: "Ok your charcter now has 20 PPE and can use TW items."

Player: "Cool, I'll borrow the cybernights Flaming Sword and hack at the enemy!"

GM: "Sorry, but the book says you can "USE" TW stuff, not power them up. So ya can't use the Flaming Sword."

Player: "Um..thats dumb but OK. How about I use the Ley Line Walkers TK Machine gun?"

GM: "Sorry, but it's out of PPE and you can't pump your PPE into it to use it."

Player: "Well what the heck?@!?!@# The Book says I can use TW items, so why can't I use TW items??? What kind a horse hockey IS this????"



Gee, not a pretty sight is it? I know that logic and Rifts don't always mix, but lets not throw it totally out the window shall we? If a mundane can use TW items, then they would obviously be able to power them up to use them.

If I tell somone that they can use my truck I give em the keys. I dont' wait to see if by some chance of DNA they happen to have Telemechanics!!! DUH!

What is stopping the Cyber Knight or Ley Line Walker from charging them up for him?
Absolutely nothing.

True. But it states that they can USE TW items. Don't matter if they are powered up or not. That's why they get the 20 PPE. To power them up.

Use the same dialoge I wrote and take out the extra characters then. How would the thief "USE" the TW items described, if he can't power them up with his 20 extra PPE? Answer me that one Doom.

[Dr. Doom III]

True. But it states that they can USE TW items. Don't matter if they are powered up or not. That's why they get the 20 PPE. To power them up.

Use the same dialoge I wrote and take out the extra characters then. How would the thief "USE" the TW items described, if he can't power them up with his 20 extra PPE? Answer me that one Doom.

The same way he can use a gun without any bullets in it.
As a club.

[Subjugator]

True. But it states that they can USE TW items. Don't matter if they are powered up or not. That's why they get the 20 PPE. To power them up.

Use the same dialoge I wrote and take out the extra characters then. How would the thief "USE" the TW items described, if he can't power them up with his 20 extra PPE? Answer me that one Doom.

The same way he can use a gun without any bullets in it.
As a club.

Again, Occam's razor says he should be able to power it, absent evidence to the contrary. There is no evidence that the ability to use and the ability to charge NORMAL TW WEAPONS is not linked, and there is significant evidence to the contrary.

The very fact that Queenston muskets are a listed as an exception (use and charging are not linked) is evidence of it, so thanks for pointing them out.

Sub

[Dr. Doom III]

Again, Occam's razor says he should be able to power it, absent evidence to the contrary. There is no evidence that the ability to use and the ability to charge NORMAL TW WEAPONS is not linked, and there is significant evidence to the contrary.

The very fact that Queenston muskets are a listed as an exception (use and charging are not linked) is evidence of it, so thanks for pointing them out.

Sub

LOL
Occam's razor?
LOL

Going back to my gun analogy.
I can fire a gun. Pull the trigger. Point and shoot and all that. But I have no idea how to eject the magazine on my friends Walther. I can shoot it but I can't reload it. I don't know how.

That is the simplest explanation.

[Subjugator]

Again, Occam's razor says he should be able to power it, absent evidence to the contrary. There is no evidence that the ability to use and the ability to charge NORMAL TW WEAPONS is not linked, and there is significant evidence to the contrary.

The very fact that Queenston muskets are a listed as an exception (use and charging are not linked) is evidence of it, so thanks for pointing them out.

Sub

LOL
Occam's razor?
LOL

Going back to my gun analogy.
I can fire a gun. Pull the trigger. Point and shoot and all that. But I have no idea how to eject the magazine on my friends Walther. I can shoot it but I can't reload it. I don't know how.

That is the simplest explanation.

The rules specifically say that even if you hold a fully charged TW weapon, you cannot shoot it if you're a mundane. Your post is irrelevant to the question I asked because of that.

[Shadowfyr]

Again, Occam's razor says he should be able to power it, absent evidence to the contrary. There is no evidence that the ability to use and the ability to charge NORMAL TW WEAPONS is not linked, and there is significant evidence to the contrary.

The very fact that Queenston muskets are a listed as an exception (use and charging are not linked) is evidence of it, so thanks for pointing them out.

Sub

LOL
Occam's razor?
LOL

Going back to my gun analogy.
I can fire a gun. Pull the trigger. Point and shoot and all that. But I have no idea how to eject the magazine on my friends Walther. I can shoot it but I can't reload it. I don't know how.

That is the simplest explanation.

The rules specifically say that even if you hold a fully charged TW weapon, you cannot shoot it if you're a mundane. Your post is irrelevant to the question I asked because of that.

Well now that person holding that fully charged TW has two options now.... hold it and pretend to be playing cowboys and indians, or he has a very nice looking beating stick

[Dr. Doom III]

The rules specifically say that even if you hold a fully charged TW weapon, you cannot shoot it if you're a mundane. Your post is irrelevant to the question I asked because of that.

A Dragon Juicer isn't a normal person so if you have a point I fail to see it.

Stop me if you heard this before.
Use isn't an issue.
Powering is.

[Subjugator]

The rules specifically say that even if you hold a fully charged TW weapon, you cannot shoot it if you're a mundane. Your post is irrelevant to the question I asked because of that.

A Dragon Juicer isn't a normal person so if you have a point I fail to see it.

Stop me if you heard this before.
Use isn't an issue.
Powering is.

OK - the question I was addressing is why the Queenston rifle is not a normal TW item. It isn't, because it's usable by mundanes despite their lack of ability to charge it.

Let me say it again for you - so far, the only weapons capable of being used by those who cannot charge them are listed as exceptions - they're very specific about it.

So - as the Queenston rifle is SPECIFICALLY listed as an exception to the normal rule, it would seem to indicate that charging and using are still linked. In fact, the very fact that it is listed as exceptional would tend to link the two, because otherwise it wouldn't be unusual for people to use them when they could not recharge them.

Have you even ONCE come up with a example of a weapon in which using and charging is not linked that does not specifically list it as being the exception to the rule.

Yeah, I didn't think so either.

By the way, I checked out the weapons of the Blind Warrior Women. You forgot two things...

1. They have powerful psionics (they start with 3d6x10 ISP). That is how they charge any TW items they get.

2. That's *IF* they get TW items. They get NONE by default, so there is no example even showing them to have one, unless it's on a specific NPC.

Further - to my detractor who said that Undead Slayers (or actually T-Men) cannot by default use TW items...they're listed as loving TW Water Shotguns and the Sunaj Assasins ADORE TW items.

[Dr. Doom III]

Can psychics use TW items?
I think we can agree that they can.

Now with this understanding we look at TW converted Plasma weapons (pg. 92 RMB).
What is the cost to recharge?
"Casting another fire bolt and energy bolt (12 P.P.E. total) will charge the weapon with another 5 blasts."
There is no ISP recharge option.

Therefore psychics can use it but not recharge it.

Once again linkage is debunked.
I will not address it again.

[Dr. Doom III]

1. They have powerful psionics (they start with 3d6x10 ISP). That is how they charge any TW items they get.

Actually you forgot that those weapons cannot be recharged with ISP.

[Mack]

Now with this understanding we look at TW converted Plasma weapons (pg. 92 RMB).
What is the cost to recharge?
"Casting another fire bolt and energy bolt (12 P.P.E. total) will charge the weapon with another 5 blasts."
There is no ISP recharge option.

Therefore psychics can use it but not recharge it.

Hang on a second. Isn't there a statement in the BoM that if an ISP cost is not listed, then it's twice the PPE requirement? (Don't have my book at the moment.)

[Jesterzzn]

The problem is Splynn Dimentional Market gives us an example of 20 PPE being enough to power and use TW items. See the Water Merchant. If 20 is enough, and since that happens to be on the low end for Dragon Juicers, you have to say its pretty solid that they infact can power and use TW items.

It doesn't say anything about powering.

This is blind belligerence at its pinnacle folks. About what we are to expect from a Doom argument, but still pretty funny to see.

[Subjugator]

1. They have powerful psionics (they start with 3d6x10 ISP). That is how they charge any TW items they get.

Actually you forgot that those weapons cannot be recharged with ISP.

1. As I said, *IF* they get them. Find me where it shows one with the plasma weapon. Go ahead...show me.

2. I didn't mention any items specifically, what I said was that they can charge TW items...not all of the TW items in the Rifts megaverse.

[Dr. Doom III]

1. They have powerful psionics (they start with 3d6x10 ISP). That is how they charge any TW items they get.

Actually you forgot that those weapons cannot be recharged with ISP.

1. As I said, *IF* they get them. Find me where it shows one with the plasma weapon. Go ahead...show me.

2. I didn't mention any items specifically, what I said was that they can charge TW items...not all of the TW items in the Rifts megaverse.

Please try to keep your arguments straight.
It was the Splugorth TW weapons used by blind warrior women, which was being referred to in this post.

[Dr. Doom III]

This is blind belligerence at its pinnacle folks. About what we are to expect from a Doom argument, but still pretty funny to see.

OK here's your chance to prove me wrong.
Show me where it says anything about powering?

[Mudang]

This is blind belligerence at its pinnacle folks. About what we are to expect from a Doom argument, but still pretty funny to see.

OK here's your chance to prove me wrong.
Show me where it says anything about powering?

Page 21

It is commonly used by practitioners of
magic to replenish lost P.P.E. or as a booster before combat, but
it can also be used by ordinary people to, momentarily, use
Techno-Wizard devices.

It does not say power, but that means nothing. It doesn't list any other stipulations, such as "they can't use a tw weapon that's not powered," so....

[Dr. Doom III]

Page 21

It is commonly used by practitioners of
magic to replenish lost P.P.E. or as a booster before combat, but
it can also be used by ordinary people to, momentarily, use
Techno-Wizard devices.

It does not say power, but that means nothing. It doesn't list any other stipulations, such as "they can't use a tw weapon that's not powered," so....

Because it's obvious.
It also doesn't say you can't fire a gun that isn't loaded.
It redundant.

All it says is use. It allows them to use them. It doesn't say one thing about granting the ability to use this bonus PPE in any way to those that don't already know how.
Remember this passage in the main book?
“A person without magic abilities can not use a techno-wizard device even if fully charged.”
With this water they can. But since this water does not grant the ability for normal people to use their PPE they must be charged by another.

So drink the water and a person without magic abilities can use a techno-wizard device if fully charged.

[Subjugator]

1. They have powerful psionics (they start with 3d6x10 ISP). That is how they charge any TW items they get.

Actually you forgot that those weapons cannot be recharged with ISP.

1. As I said, *IF* they get them. Find me where it shows one with the plasma weapon. Go ahead...show me.

2. I didn't mention any items specifically, what I said was that they can charge TW items...not all of the TW items in the Rifts megaverse.

Please try to keep your arguments straight.
It was the Splugorth TW weapons used by blind warrior women, which was being referred to in this post.

Show me an example where they HAVE Splugorth TW weapons then. I see none. What I see are self recharging weapons.

[Subjugator]

Page 21

It is commonly used by practitioners of
magic to replenish lost P.P.E. or as a booster before combat, but
it can also be used by ordinary people to, momentarily, use
Techno-Wizard devices.

It does not say power, but that means nothing. It doesn't list any other stipulations, such as "they can't use a tw weapon that's not powered," so....

Because it's obvious.
It also doesn't say you can't fire a gun that isn't loaded.
It redundant.

All it says is use. It allows them to use them. It doesn't say one thing about granting the ability to use this bonus PPE in any way to those that don't already know how.
Remember this passage in the main book?
“A person without magic abilities can not use a techno-wizard device even if fully charged.”
With this water they can. But since this water does not grant the ability for normal people to use their PPE they must be charged by another.

So drink the water and a person without magic abilities can use a techno-wizard device if fully charged.

You must hate Occam's Razor...because you're always butting up against it. Do you know what Occam's Razor says?

Basically it says that when presented with several possibilities, the simplest option is usually correct. Your explanation requires a tap-dance...ours doesn't...by Occam's Razor, we're correct.

[Dr. Doom III]

Show me an example where they HAVE Splugorth TW weapons then. I see none. What I see are self recharging weapons.

Look at the cover of the Rifts main book.
Now look at Atlantis where it says what they look like by telling you which Blind Warrior Woman is holding which weapon.
None of which are self recharging.
Charged by High Lords, Techno-wizards and at Stone Pyramids.

[Dr. Doom III]

You must hate Occam's Razor...because you're always butting up against it. Do you know what Occam's Razor says?

Basically it says that when presented with several possibilities, the simplest option is usually correct. Your explanation requires a tap-dance...ours doesn't...by Occam's Razor, we're correct.

I know that it doesn't say anything about assuming what is not there and there is no evidence of.
That isn't the simplest.
The simplest is what it says and no more.

Perhaps it is you who is butting heads with good old Occam?

[Temporalmage]

True. But it states that they can USE TW items. Don't matter if they are powered up or not. That's why they get the 20 PPE. To power them up.

Use the same dialoge I wrote and take out the extra characters then. How would the thief "USE" the TW items described, if he can't power them up with his 20 extra PPE? Answer me that one Doom.

The same way he can use a gun without any bullets in it.
As a club.

That's not using. That's MIS-using. NOT the same thing and you know it.

[Temporalmage]

Again, Occam's razor says he should be able to power it, absent evidence to the contrary. There is no evidence that the ability to use and the ability to charge NORMAL TW WEAPONS is not linked, and there is significant evidence to the contrary.

The very fact that Queenston muskets are a listed as an exception (use and charging are not linked) is evidence of it, so thanks for pointing them out.

Sub

LOL
Occam's razor?
LOL

Going back to my gun analogy.
I can fire a gun. Pull the trigger. Point and shoot and all that. But I have no idea how to eject the magazine on my friends Walther. I can shoot it but I can't reload it. I don't know how.

That is the simplest explanation.

But in this case the Dragon Juicers very being gives them all the skill and knowlage they need to use the TW items. The BOM says so.

As for the "water", that gives mundanes the "knowlage" they need too. Cause the book says so.

That pretty much sums up my entire stance on this subject. Dragon Juicers can power and use TW items, and mundanes can power up TW items once they've drank that water too.

CAUSE THE BOOKS SAY SO!!!

[Temporalmage]

A Dragon Juicer isn't a normal person.

Umm....Doomy. If a Dragon Juicer ain't a normal person then why are you trying to lump them with mundanes when it comes to TW items??? If they ain't normal then they must be somthing else. Well what else could they be??? Oh I know!! Magical!!! And Magical beings CAN use and power TW items no sweat!!

[Temporalmage]

Can psychics use TW items?
I think we can agree that they can.

Now with this understanding we look at TW converted Plasma weapons (pg. 92 RMB).
What is the cost to recharge?
"Casting another fire bolt and energy bolt (12 P.P.E. total) will charge the weapon with another 5 blasts."
There is no ISP recharge option.

Therefore psychics can use it but not recharge it.

Once again linkage is debunked.
I will not address it again.

That's been totaly done away with by Palladium themselves, and you know it!! Many of the old TW stuff in the main book requires the specific spell to be cast into it to work at all. Which severly limited the item as to who could use it. That was redone long long ago by Palladium in allowing anyone to just pump in thier PPE or ISP to use the weapons. It's sad that you pulling out of date, revamped, totally wrong material from the books that has zero bearing on the conversation to try to prove a misdirected and obviously wrong opinion that does not once match up with Palladium Books written material in any way shape or form.

I believe that Jesterzzn said it best:

This is blind belligerence at its pinnacle folks.

[Temporalmage]

This is blind belligerence at its pinnacle folks. About what we are to expect from a Doom argument, but still pretty funny to see.

OK here's your chance to prove me wrong.
Show me where it says anything about powering?

Done already Doomy ole boy. But if you insist.

Page 21 BOM: "To create the items, the Techno-Wizard must know the appropriate spell. But in most cases, after it is made, the user can re-energize the weapon or activate its magic by simply pumping in the appropriate PPE or ISP requried."

See? The USER can pump in the PPE. As in the mundane person that drank a vial of magic water, where the discription says makes mundanes able to USE techno-wizard stuff!!!

For the last time. Doom is proven wrong.

[Subjugator]

Show me an example where they HAVE Splugorth TW weapons then. I see none. What I see are self recharging weapons.

Look at the cover of the Rifts main book.
Now look at Atlantis where it says what they look like by telling you which Blind Warrior Woman is holding which weapon.
None of which are self recharging.
Charged by High Lords, Techno-wizards and at Stone Pyramids.

You think that cover art is equal to a ruling?

Please. There's another thread for that, but basically it's agreed that art is just to look cool, not to form rules.

[Subjugator]

This is blind belligerence at its pinnacle folks. About what we are to expect from a Doom argument, but still pretty funny to see.

OK here's your chance to prove me wrong.
Show me where it says anything about powering?

Done already Doomy ole boy. But if you insist.

Page 21 BOM: "To create the items, the Techno-Wizard must know the appropriate spell. But in most cases, after it is made, the user can re-energize the weapon or activate its magic by simply pumping in the appropriate PPE or ISP requried."

See? The USER can pump in the PPE. As in the mundane person that drank a vial of magic water, where the discription says makes mundanes able to USE techno-wizard stuff!!!

For the last time. Doom is proven wrong.

He won't admit it though. That's the real problem. He refuses to see because his pride will take a hit if he's wrong.

[Mack]

You think that cover art is equal to a ruling?

Please. There's another thread for that, but basically it's agreed that art is just to look cool, not to form rules.

Given the text that specifically refers to that cover, yes, it's valid.

[Dr. Doom III]

But in this case the Dragon Juicers very being gives them all the skill and knowlage they need to use the TW items. The BOM says so.

As for the "water", that gives mundanes the "knowlage" they need too. Cause the book says so.

That pretty much sums up my entire stance on this subject. Dragon Juicers can power and use TW items, and mundanes can power up TW items once they've drank that water too.

CAUSE THE BOOKS SAY SO!!!

Yes to USE TW items.
The books do say that.

There is still nothing on using their PPE.

[Dr. Doom III]

Done already Doomy ole boy. But if you insist.

Page 21 BOM: "To create the items, the Techno-Wizard must know the appropriate spell. But in most cases, after it is made, the user can re-energize the weapon or activate its magic by simply pumping in the appropriate PPE or ISP requried."

See? The USER can pump in the PPE. As in the mundane person that drank a vial of magic water, where the discription says makes mundanes able to USE techno-wizard stuff!!!

For the last time. Doom is proven wrong.

Note the part in bold.
And by the way I already address that and debunked it.
Scroll up a few pages.

[Temporalmage]

Done already Doomy ole boy. But if you insist.

Page 21 BOM: "To create the items, the Techno-Wizard must know the appropriate spell. But in most cases, after it is made, the user can re-energize the weapon or activate its magic by simply pumping in the appropriate PPE or ISP requried."

See? The USER can pump in the PPE. As in the mundane person that drank a vial of magic water, where the discription says makes mundanes able to USE techno-wizard stuff!!!

For the last time. Doom is proven wrong.

Note the part in bold.
And by the way I already address that and debunked it.
Scroll up a few pages.

How in the hell do you "Debunk" material that is found in Palladium books?? Especially material that is found in the Q&A section of Palladiums Book Of Magic???

Are you trying to tell us that you know more about Palladium's Rifts than the actual creators of the game?? Are you really THAT egotistical?? Cause that's sure how it seems judging from your statements there Doomy ole boy!

[Dr. Doom III]

How in the hell do you "Debunk" material that is found in Palladium books?? Especially material that is found in the Q&A section of Palladiums Book Of Magic???

Are you trying to tell us that you know more about Palladium's Rifts than the actual creators of the game?? Are you really THAT egotistical?? Cause that's sure how it seems judging from your statements there Doomy ole boy!

I debunked your flawed interpretation.
If you looked back you would see how.

Here's a hint.
It was on page 2.

[Subjugator]

You think that cover art is equal to a ruling?

Please. There's another thread for that, but basically it's agreed that art is just to look cool, not to form rules.

Given the text that specifically refers to that cover, yes, it's valid.

Where does the text refer to that cover? It describes weapons that are in 'use' on the cover. Nowhere does it say that Blind Warrior Women use them.

[Mack]

You think that cover art is equal to a ruling?

Please. There's another thread for that, but basically it's agreed that art is just to look cool, not to form rules.

Given the text that specifically refers to that cover, yes, it's valid.

Where does the text refer to that cover? It describes weapons that are in 'use' on the cover. Nowhere does it say that Blind Warrior Women use them.

*Smacks forehead.

[Subjugator]

You think that cover art is equal to a ruling?

Please. There's another thread for that, but basically it's agreed that art is just to look cool, not to form rules.

Given the text that specifically refers to that cover, yes, it's valid.

Where does the text refer to that cover? It describes weapons that are in 'use' on the cover. Nowhere does it say that Blind Warrior Women use them.

*Smacks forehead.

If you're smacking your forehead because the cover shows the Warrior Women using them, again, that's not considered to be a ruling, but to be artistic license.