Minions

[Alrik Vas]

Thinking about it further, Tor brings up good points. Plus he cited the book. Which is hard to argue with, it isn't even vague.

[eliakon]

I don't have to. That isn't how burden of proof works. You are the one making a positive claim (that the book is incorrect and that kittani are really slaves)
Thus it is your burden to prove it true, not mine to prove your claim false.
But hey, I will humor you.
During the Mechanoid crisis the Kitani, in direct defiance of orders, sent forces to North America to fight the Mechanoids. Sounds like self determination to me.

You are claiming the Kitanni have self determination. Prove it.

I just DID
I provided an example of self determination.

I would point out also the exact text of the book on page 52
"an alliance was struck that has lasted 38,000 years" and "the only know Kittani in existence are those who have sworn loyalty to the Splugorth."
Not, the Kitanni were enslaved, but an alliance. You don't have alliances with your property.
Allies though do have self determination, as long as they do not violate the terms of the alliance of course.

Again it is not my burden to show that it can be done, it is yours to prove that it can not be done. Because you are the one making a categorical claim that it is not possible, so it is your claim to prove.
BUT just to humor you....
When the Mechanoids invaded, even though they were ordered not to, the Kitanni sent forces to North America to fight the Mechanoids.
And yet, there is no mention of any sort of retribution or purge. Seems like they got away with doing their own thing.

Wrong. You are claiming the Kitanni have self determination, other than one instance (out of a 38,000 year history) where are the other examples?

You asked for an example.
I provided an example.
Your now saying that it is not a true example...
Do you know the phrase "No true Scotsman"?
However I would point out that the only history we have much on is the period from 104PA to Current
So if we look at it from 'with in the written game setting there has been at least one instance of defiance that has gone completely unpunished"
then its looking like they can do it every decade....
So therefore I have supported my contention with evidence, I now look forward to your evidence that they are not allowed to do this, and that this is a unique event and not normal.
I would argue though that since they are allies not slaves it doesn't matter.

-We don't know how/when Kittani retire, do you have a book citation about it? Because your the one here making a claim that they can not retire, and must serve until they die.

No Kitanni exist that are not servents of the Splugorth. What type of retirement does that imply? You are claiming the Kitanni do not serve for life. Prove it.

FALSE I would note that book says sworn loyalty to the Splugorth. Not servants of HUGE difference.. A patriot can swear loyalty to their nation, with out having to be serving it 24/7. They can even retire after an honorable service. After all the patriot is not a slave, and neither are the Kitanni.
So all I have to do is prove that the material printed on page 52 of Atlantis is, well the material printed in the game on the subject *enters page 52 of Atlantis into evidence*
Okay, great there we go. All Kitani are loyal to the splugorth. Now what that means is not defined, but it does appear to imply that they expect all Kitanni to follow a path of government/racial service for some unspecificed period, and that they do not allow traitors to their race or their alliance.
Further it says that renegades who are captures will be made into slaves. Which implies they are not slaves before this, only if they go renegade and get caught.

-And no Samurai could not quit fighting, or change sides, or decide to not be a Samurai. At least not with out committing treason that would result in they and their family being hunted down. Which is exactly the situation here. Which is why I use the Samurai as the example since it is pretty clear (to me at least) that the Kitani are intended to be a sort of Tech-Samurai of the Splugorth. Dedicated warriors who fulfil their oaths what ever the cost to themselves, noble warriors with their own codes.

I would suggest you learn something about the samurai other than what you see in the movies. Reality is much different than your claim.

Feel free to cite sources to support your contention then
You can start by specifically denying specific parts of the claim, then providing evidence that the claim is false.
Because simply insulting a person and saying 'no its not' doesn't prove anything.

[Leo H]

Thinking about it further, Tor brings up good points. Plus he cited the book. Which is hard to argue with, it isn't even vague.

I agree he does bring up some valid points and cites the book. He then turns around and contradicts exactly what the book says about some of the minions. Maybe the Kittani don't count as slaves. Sure, that's fine, the book is very vague on the arrangement they made with the Splugorth. My contention is this, any agreement made under duress with survival on the line sounds like slavery to me. We only know that they reached an agreement and the Kittani agreed to serve.

[eliakon]

Thinking about it further, Tor brings up good points. Plus he cited the book. Which is hard to argue with, it isn't even vague.

I agree he does bring up some valid points and cites the book. He then turns around and contradicts exactly what the book says about some of the minions. Maybe the Kittani don't count as slaves. Sure, that's fine, the book is very vague on the arrangement they made with the Splugorth. My contention is this, any agreement made under duress with survival on the line sounds like slavery to me. We only know that they reached an agreement and the Kittani agreed to serve.

And that the agreement has lasted 38,000 years with out the Kittani ever seeking to 'escape' from it. That's a pretty solid suggestion that they don't think its unfair. Who knows, maybe when Splyncryth finely shuffles off the mortal coil they are free to do what they want? We don't know as we don't have any details other than they made an agreement, formed an alliance, that alliance has lasted 38,000 years (which is almost eight times longer than recorded human history, and almost three times longer than modern homo sapiens have been around....), and that the alliance is flexible enough to let them do things against orders with out catastrophic repercussions.
I don't know about you....but that doesn't sound like slaves to me.

[Alrik Vas]

Yeah, plus, 38,000 years with no revolts or upheavals? (Granted, that we know of...but we also have only 1 instance we can point to of the Kittani being insubordinate as well...so...)

Though yeah, the deal was based off crap circumstances, and the Splugorth naturally took advantage of that. No disagreement there.

[eliakon]

Yeah, plus, 38,000 years with no revolts or upheavals? (Granted, that we know of...but we also have only 1 instance we can point to of the Kittani being insubordinate as well...so...)

Though yeah, the deal was based off crap circumstances, and the Splugorth naturally took advantage of that. No disagreement there.

Oh no, I would agree that it was definitely something that was exploited. But it sound to me like it was also something the Kittani were glad of.
"We are all going to die and then our children will die and there is absolutely nothing we can do to stop it."
*one intervention later*
"So what your saying is that if we do what we are doing now, but agree to only do it subordinate to your empire, you will save us from the unsavable evil, and pledge to preserve our race in perpetuity? Sounds like a bargain, what are you getting out of it?"

[Slight001]

Alright I will point this out because it's bugging the crap out of me... I'm not actually joining this argument about the kittani's status within the Splugorth empire...

The Kittani attacking the mechanoids against orders isn't really demonstrating self-determination all it's demonstrating is that the kittani's hatred of the mechanoids outweighs the fear that they have of any consequences of their actions.

Also are the kittani not banned from learning magic or putting any serious effort into developing their technology and military forces? Away from books at the moment.

[flatline]

If a Kitanni wants to leave or learn magic, are they killed by the Splugorth for disobeying or are they killed by their own kind for breaking the ancient agreement that the Kitanni as a race made with the Splugorth?

Either answer, but especially the later, will have dramatic implications for this discussion.

[Leo H]

If a Kitanni wants to leave or learn magic, are they killed by the Splugorth for disobeying or are they killed by their own kind for breaking the ancient agreement that the Kitanni as a race made with the Splugorth?

Either answer, but especially the later, will have dramatic implications for this discussion.

They are monitored by the Splugorth and if any of them are caught trying to learn magic, that person is killed by Splugorth agents. As far as leaving goes, as far as I understand it, anyone attempting to leave is considered a traitor and hunted by their own and (maybe) Splugorth agents.

[Ed]

The Kitanni are slaves because they lack basic self determination; defined as the ability to live life as they choose. The proof, no Kitanni exist that are not servants of the Splugorth. They have no choice, they cannot change their mind, there is no trial period. For the past 38,000 years the Kitanni have served the Splugorth, unless there are still Kitanni still alive from before, no Kitanni alive today has been free to chose the course of their life.

The Kitanni are likewise not free to determine the manner of their service. Proof, they are not allowed to learn magic (which the Splugorth consider the source of true power), they are not permitted to build weapons of mass destruction (no more than 10 Dragon Dreadnaughts, no strategic nuclear weapons, no Earth-based star ships or orbital weapons platforms) and finally they are not allowed to operate independently of Splugorth supervision.

[eliakon]

The Kitanni are slaves because they lack basic self determination; defined as the ability to live life as they choose. The proof, no Kitanni exist that are not servants of the Splugorth. They have no choice, they cannot change their mind, there is no trial period. For the past 38,000 years the Kitanni have served the Splugorth, unless there are still Kitanni still alive from before, no Kitanni alive today has been free to chose the course of their life.

Except of course that isn't what the books actually say.
The book does not say that they are the servants of the Splugorth. Its says that they are the loyal allies of them, and uphold their ancient pact. The two terms are not interchangeable.

The Kitanni are likewise not free to determine the manner of their service. Proof, they are not allowed to learn magic (which the Splugorth consider the source of true power), they are not permitted to build weapons of mass destruction (no more than 10 Dragon Dreadnaughts, no strategic nuclear weapons, no Earth-based star ships or orbital weapons platforms) and finally they are not allowed to operate independently of Splugorth supervision.

And again that isn't proof of anything. Since all of that could be part of the original agreement ("Thou shalt not learn magic, thou shalt not build WMDs, thou shalt consult with me and seek my approval for strategic weapons, if thou doest these things, then I shall agree to protect you and your heirs now and for ever.")
All it does is show us that in Kitanni society certain things are considered taboo and/or Illegal. And that some of them are capital crimes.....sort of like every other civilization.

[Nightmask]

The Kitanni are slaves because they lack basic self determination; defined as the ability to live life as they choose. The proof, no Kitanni exist that are not servants of the Splugorth. They have no choice, they cannot change their mind, there is no trial period. For the past 38,000 years the Kitanni have served the Splugorth, unless there are still Kitanni still alive from before, no Kitanni alive today has been free to chose the course of their life.

The Kitanni are likewise not free to determine the manner of their service. Proof, they are not allowed to learn magic (which the Splugorth consider the source of true power), they are not permitted to build weapons of mass destruction (no more than 10 Dragon Dreadnaughts, no strategic nuclear weapons, no Earth-based star ships or orbital weapons platforms) and finally they are not allowed to operate independently of Splugorth supervision.

NOBODY'S free to live live as they choose, we all operate under some sort of restrictions which doesn't even remotely qualify as making one a slave it qualifies one as living within the restrictions placed upon them by society. Going by your argument the only people who aren't slaves are the people who ignore all the rules of society and law and do whatever they want whenever they want all of the time because if they don't and instead respond to some restriction so as to not do whatever they want whenever they want that makes them a slave. That's just ridiculous.

The Kittani CHOOSE to work for and serve the Splugorth, finding it a beneficial relationship that they've never had a reason to change. Their self-determination has given them no reason to change the relationship in all that time because it's always benefited them enough to not have any reason to change it. Deciding you like how things are and continuing with it isn't the same thing as not having the choice to change things at all.

[Leo H]

The Kitanni are slaves because they lack basic self determination; defined as the ability to live life as they choose. The proof, no Kitanni exist that are not servants of the Splugorth. They have no choice, they cannot change their mind, there is no trial period. For the past 38,000 years the Kitanni have served the Splugorth, unless there are still Kitanni still alive from before, no Kitanni alive today has been free to chose the course of their life.

Except of course that isn't what the books actually say.
The book does not say that they are the servants of the Splugorth. Its says that they are the loyal allies of them, and uphold their ancient pact. The two terms are not interchangeable.

The Kitanni are likewise not free to determine the manner of their service. Proof, they are not allowed to learn magic (which the Splugorth consider the source of true power), they are not permitted to build weapons of mass destruction (no more than 10 Dragon Dreadnaughts, no strategic nuclear weapons, no Earth-based star ships or orbital weapons platforms) and finally they are not allowed to operate independently of Splugorth supervision.

And again that isn't proof of anything. Since all of that could be part of the original agreement ("Thou shalt not learn magic, thou shalt not build WMDs, thou shalt consult with me and seek my approval for strategic weapons, if thou doest these things, then I shall agree to protect you and your heirs now and for ever.")
All it does is show us that in Kitanni society certain things are considered taboo and/or Illegal. And that some of them are capital crimes.....sort of like every other civilization.

Okay, thing is the Kittani may not be slaves per say. We could (and have) argue(d) about what the term means and what it entails. Fine, thing is, you are ignoring the obvious by saying they're NOT servants of the Splugorth. Minion, they are minions of the Splugorth. That means they serve at the pleasure of the Splugorth. They made an agreement and the Kittani are living up to that agreement. Thing is the Splugorth don't fully trust them or they wouldn't have them monitored and reined in all the time. So, my point is this, how's an agreement made under duress really valid? How's this agreement fair to the Kittani? 38,000 years plus, and the Kittani are still being treated like second class citizens. They may be better off than some of the other minions but they are NOT Elite minions.

[Leo H]

The Kitanni are slaves because they lack basic self determination; defined as the ability to live life as they choose. The proof, no Kitanni exist that are not servants of the Splugorth. They have no choice, they cannot change their mind, there is no trial period. For the past 38,000 years the Kitanni have served the Splugorth, unless there are still Kitanni still alive from before, no Kitanni alive today has been free to chose the course of their life.

The Kitanni are likewise not free to determine the manner of their service. Proof, they are not allowed to learn magic (which the Splugorth consider the source of true power), they are not permitted to build weapons of mass destruction (no more than 10 Dragon Dreadnaughts, no strategic nuclear weapons, no Earth-based star ships or orbital weapons platforms) and finally they are not allowed to operate independently of Splugorth supervision.

NOBODY'S free to live live as they choose, we all operate under some sort of restrictions which doesn't even remotely qualify as making one a slave it qualifies one as living within the restrictions placed upon them by society. Going by your argument the only people who aren't slaves are the people who ignore all the rules of society and law and do whatever they want whenever they want all of the time because if they don't and instead respond to some restriction so as to not do whatever they want whenever they want that makes them a slave. That's just ridiculous.

The Kittani CHOOSE to work for and serve the Splugorth, finding it a beneficial relationship that they've never had a reason to change. Their self-determination has given them no reason to change the relationship in all that time because it's always benefited them enough to not have any reason to change it. Deciding you like how things are and continuing with it isn't the same thing as not having the choice to change things at all.

No, they didn't choose to serve the Splugorth. It was that or total destruction of the race. Sure, it was a deal but was it really a fair deal? Yes, all socities have rules but what are you when you can't choose to leave that society for what you consider a better life?
Even the Coalition allow people, or at least most people to make that choice. Being stripped of that choice is being stripped of a fundemental life right.

[flatline]

So who wants to build a campaign around the Kittani Liberation Front?

What types of characters would you expect to participate? Kittani exclusive? or would they have allies helping?

[Nightmask]

The Kitanni are slaves because they lack basic self determination; defined as the ability to live life as they choose. The proof, no Kitanni exist that are not servants of the Splugorth. They have no choice, they cannot change their mind, there is no trial period. For the past 38,000 years the Kitanni have served the Splugorth, unless there are still Kitanni still alive from before, no Kitanni alive today has been free to chose the course of their life.

The Kitanni are likewise not free to determine the manner of their service. Proof, they are not allowed to learn magic (which the Splugorth consider the source of true power), they are not permitted to build weapons of mass destruction (no more than 10 Dragon Dreadnaughts, no strategic nuclear weapons, no Earth-based star ships or orbital weapons platforms) and finally they are not allowed to operate independently of Splugorth supervision.

NOBODY'S free to live live as they choose, we all operate under some sort of restrictions which doesn't even remotely qualify as making one a slave it qualifies one as living within the restrictions placed upon them by society. Going by your argument the only people who aren't slaves are the people who ignore all the rules of society and law and do whatever they want whenever they want all of the time because if they don't and instead respond to some restriction so as to not do whatever they want whenever they want that makes them a slave. That's just ridiculous.

The Kittani CHOOSE to work for and serve the Splugorth, finding it a beneficial relationship that they've never had a reason to change. Their self-determination has given them no reason to change the relationship in all that time because it's always benefited them enough to not have any reason to change it. Deciding you like how things are and continuing with it isn't the same thing as not having the choice to change things at all.

No, they didn't choose to serve the Splugorth. It was that or total destruction of the race. Sure, it was a deal but was it really a fair deal? Yes, all socities have rules but what are you when you can't choose to leave that society for what you consider a better life?
Even the Coalition allow people, or at least most people to make that choice. Being stripped of that choice is being stripped of a fundemental life right.

Yes, the chose. Extinction or the continued survival of their species, those were the choices they were faced with and rather than choose to be rendered extinct they CHOSE to join and serve the Splugorth. A choice that served them well, keeping their species alive for millenia instead of joining the list of long-forgotten extinct species that fell at the Mechanoids hands. Not all deals in life are fair either, that doesn't make you a slave because you took a deal that wasn't all on your side. Considering the deal provided for the survival of their species and access to incredible resources it hardly sounds like that harsh a deal, and if the Splugorth ban learning magic well so what? They have a law against it, if the death penalty is what that law says that STILL doesn't make you a slave it just makes you a citizen who broke the law.

You're also operating under a fallacy there that because YOU think it's a better life that the Kittani should find it better too and if they don't then they must be slaves rather than just disagreeing with you. Also no the CS does NOT give you that choice to leave or stay either (they also have a death penalty for learning magic, don't see you calling the CS citizens slaves), when you're a member you're one for life. The only ones who leave and survive are those who either get so far away the death teams can't find them to kill them or are powerful enough like Larsen that it's not in their best interest to expend the resources required to kill them.

[Nightmask]

So who wants to build a campaign around the Kittani Liberation Front?

What types of characters would you expect to participate? Kittani exclusive? or would they have allies helping?

Considering such a front would have to convince the entire population of Kittani that they're better off not being allied to the Splugorth but instead better off on their own when their history showed that they couldn't survive without being rescued by the Splugorth I can't see where it'd be even remotely successful. They have power under the Splugorth, power they wouldn't have on their own.

[Tor]

I agree he does bring up some valid points and cites the book. He then turns around and contradicts exactly what the book says about some of the minions.

No I don't, I pointed out that while many Maxi-Men and Tattooed Men are slaves, clearly the ones who rank above "slave" on the minion chart must not be slaves.

The Kittani section itself contradicts assumptions they are slaves.

the book is very vague on the arrangement they made with the Splugorth. My contention is this, any agreement made under duress with survival on the line sounds like slavery to me.

If you broaden the definition of slavery then pretty much any relationship can be defined that way.

After all, my behavior of abiding the laws of my government is an agreement made under the duress of wanting to enjoy its protections and not suffer its punishments, so I must be a slave because I avoid stealing cars and hitting people I hate.

They are monitored by the Splugorth and if any of them are caught trying to learn magic, that person is killed by Splugorth agents.

In all fairness, if the US government caught someone learning to make dirty bombs and attempting to assemble them, isn't it also likely they'd be killed in the process of stopping them?

Magic's a lot more dangerous, since a dimensional rift can summon alien intelligences who are much more dangerous than dirty bombs. This is why it's not unreasonable for the CS or others to deal harshly with those learning it.

The Kitanni are slaves because they lack basic self determination; defined as the ability to live life as they choose.

I'd choose to live life never working and eating expensive foods and seducing women around the world on a yacht. I don't have this ability to life this life because people stand in the way by owning property and land and not giving me money or paying attention to me. I guess this means I must lack self-determination and am enslaved by humanity.

Proof, they are not allowed to learn magic (which the Splugorth consider the source of true power), they are not permitted to build weapons of mass destruction (no more than 10 Dragon Dreadnaughts, no strategic nuclear weapons, no Earth-based star ships or orbital weapons platforms) and finally they are not allowed to operate independently of Splugorth supervision.

Not being allowed to build weapons of mass destruction is not slavery.

BRB, trying to free myself from the slavery of my country not letting me drive a tank into the local supermarket.

No, they didn't choose to serve the Splugorth. It was that or total destruction of the race.

Coerced choices are still choices. If I am freezing and a guy offers me a bed in his warm home in exchange for helping him to chop firewood, that doesn't mean I didn't choose to chop the firewood just because I did so for an agreement that allowed me to survive a likely death.

Sure, it was a deal but was it really a fair deal?

Of course it was, they benefitted by surviving and being allowed to propagate, run a city, etc.

what are you when you can't choose to leave that society for what you consider a better life?

Out of curiosity, where does it go into detail about leaving not being allowed? I would like to review the material your objection is based on.

WB2p52 mentions that traitors are hunted down, but does leaving the service of the Splugorth alone necessarily constitute betrayal?

[Ed]

Atlantis world book page 18 describes the categories of Splugorth minions and slaves. It is very clear the Highlords, Conservators, Powerlords, Overlords, and Slavers are willing servants. Everyone else isn't. The Kitanni and suspiciously absent from the listing of willing servants. Moreover the next paragraph details the various rights and privileges attained by the Kitanni only exist because the Splugorth "allow" them, and the amount of freedom and self determination within Splugorth society is revealed to be an illusion.

Finally, for all the blathering about the hierarchy of Minions chart the fact the Kitanni are on the same tier as the maxi-man reveals their actual place in society is the same as the maxi-man. A quick word count in the description of the maxi-man, reveals the word slave mentioned almost a dozen times.

As the world book clearly details, everyone in Splugorth society except the Splugorth, highlords, conservators, overlords, powerlords and slavers serve unwillingly, or not by choice, have no rights not granted to them by their Splugorth masters and the best they can hope to attain is co-equal status with a trusted slave like the maxi-man.

Kitanni are slaves, plain and simple.

[Nightmask]

Atlantis world book page 18 describes the categories of Splugorth minions and slaves. It is very clear the Highlords, Conservators, Powerlords, Overlords, and Slavers are willing servants. Everyone else isn't. The Kitanni and suspiciously absent from the listing of willing servants. Moreover the next paragraph details the various rights and privileges attained by the Kitanni only exist because the Splugorth "allow" them, and the amount of freedom and self determination within Splugorth society is revealed to be an illusion.

Finally, for all the blathering about the hierarchy of Minions chart the fact the Kitanni are on the same tier as the maxi-man reveals their actual place in society is the same as the maxi-man. A quick word count in the description of the maxi-man, reveals the word slave mentioned almost a dozen times.

As the world book clearly details, everyone in Splugorth society except the Splugorth, highlords, conservators, overlords, powerlords and slavers serve unwillingly, or not by choice, have no rights not granted to them by their Splugorth masters and the best they can hope to attain is co-equal status with a trusted slave like the maxi-man.

Kitanni are slaves, plain and simple.

Kittani AREN'T slaves, that's plain and simple. There's nothing suspicious about then not being on that list, nor does not being on that list mean one must be on the list of slaves instead.They aren't slaves, period.

[Blue_Lion]

If taking a deal under duress makes a people slaves then all Japan are slaves to the US. We nuked them to get them to agree to surrender.
Also every informant that gave information instead of going to jail is a slave for making a deal under duress.
AS would all native Americans as they where forced off there lands and giving unfair deals under Durres and we violate those deals.

A deal made under Duress may present legal grounds for dismissal but does not make you a slave.

[Leo H]

If taking a deal under duress makes a people slaves then all Japan are slaves to the US. We nuked them to get them to agree to surrender.

If that was all then I'd agree with you. Deals under duress aren't fair but you're right that a slave does not make. I'm hazy on the actual deal Japan had to sign but they have some cool tech and a say in things. I've made my case for why I believe they are enslaved by the Splugorth. If that's not how you see it so be it. Thing is, they are still minions who serve the Splugorth empire. They've had 38,000 years maybe more to earn a better spot with the Empire. It hadn't happened yet but hey what do I know.

[Blue_Lion]

If taking a deal under duress makes a people slaves then all Japan are slaves to the US. We nuked them to get them to agree to surrender.

If that was all then I'd agree with you. Deals under duress aren't fair but you're right that a slave does not make. I'm hazy on the actual deal Japan had to sign but they have some cool tech and a say in things. I've made my case for why I believe they are enslaved by the Splugorth. If that's not how you see it so be it. Thing is, they are still minions who serve the Splugorth empire. They've had 38,000 years maybe more to earn a better spot with the Empire. It hadn't happened yet but hey what do I know.

That seamed to be a big part of the case some posters where making. That it is the deal that was made the is why they are slaves.

Let me ask you this does the book every clearly call them slaves or allies of sploogy?

If they are allies that work with and serve in the sploogy military then they may have a lower social standing as they are not deemed citizens proper.

If they are slaves they have no say or rights.

[Leo H]

If taking a deal under duress makes a people slaves then all Japan are slaves to the US. We nuked them to get them to agree to surrender.

If that was all then I'd agree with you. Deals under duress aren't fair but you're right that a slave does not make. I'm hazy on the actual deal Japan had to sign but they have some cool tech and a say in things. I've made my case for why I believe they are enslaved by the Splugorth. If that's not how you see it so be it. Thing is, they are still minions who serve the Splugorth empire. They've had 38,000 years maybe more to earn a better spot with the Empire. It hadn't happened yet but hey what do I know.

That seamed to be a big part of the case some posters where making. That it is the deal that was made the is why they are slaves.

Let me ask you this does the book every clearly call them slaves or allies of sploogy?

If they are allies that work with and serve in the sploogy military then they may have a lower social standing as they are not deemed citizens proper.

If they are slaves they have no say or rights.

Okay, by the book, they are allies of the Splugorth that don't go out on military exercises unsupervised. There is always a supervising Elite minion with them from what I understand. So, the slavery thing aside, can we agree at least on second class citizens in the empire?

[eliakon]

If taking a deal under duress makes a people slaves then all Japan are slaves to the US. We nuked them to get them to agree to surrender.

If that was all then I'd agree with you. Deals under duress aren't fair but you're right that a slave does not make. I'm hazy on the actual deal Japan had to sign but they have some cool tech and a say in things. I've made my case for why I believe they are enslaved by the Splugorth. If that's not how you see it so be it. Thing is, they are still minions who serve the Splugorth empire. They've had 38,000 years maybe more to earn a better spot with the Empire. It hadn't happened yet but hey what do I know.

That seamed to be a big part of the case some posters where making. That it is the deal that was made the is why they are slaves.

Let me ask you this does the book every clearly call them slaves or allies of sploogy?

If they are allies that work with and serve in the sploogy military then they may have a lower social standing as they are not deemed citizens proper.

If they are slaves they have no say or rights.

Okay, by the book, they are allies of the Splugorth that don't go out on military exercises unsupervised. There is always a supervising Elite minion with them from what I understand. So, the slavery thing aside, can we agree at least on second class citizens in the empire?

Oh yeah, they are definitely not equal partners, or even equally valued minions. They are working on it and hope that someday soon they might get the bump. But right now I would agree they are second or third class citizens

[Tor]

Atlantis world book page 18 describes the categories of Splugorth minions and slaves. It is very clear the Highlords, Conservators, Powerlords, Overlords, and Slavers are willing servants. Everyone else isn't.

I looked at 18 and didn't notice wording to support this, could you specify which portions of the page you're talking about?

Where does it say the Kittani are unwilling? All I'm seeing is that they're not among the 'elite'.

All I'm seeing is that they have to obey the laws and that Kydians are more favored. Minions are described distinctly from slaves, and it's even mentioned they can own them.

The Kitanni and suspiciously absent from the listing of willing servants.

Where are you getting the term "willing servants" from?

Moreover the next paragraph details the various rights and privileges attained by the Kitanni only exist because the Splugorth "allow" them, and the amount of freedom and self determination within Splugorth society is revealed to be an illusion.

That the Splugorth ruler can remake the laws or ignore them doesn't mean that minions are slaves.

Finally, for all the blathering about the hierarchy of Minions chart the fact the Kitanni are on the same tier as the maxi-man reveals their actual place in society is the same as the maxi-man. A quick word count in the description of the maxi-man, reveals the word slave mentioned almost a dozen times.

Having equal military rank to a favored slave doesn't mean you are a slave yourself, as obvious by DRAGONS being ranked on the same tier.

As mentioned previously, I think it's also clear this rank is about non-slave Maxi-Men. Atlantis page 95 says they can receive a special reward of FREEDOM for loyalty and courage. They can become generals and even become governors. These guys who rank equal to Kittani are obviously freed from slavery, the ones who are not rank below the Sunaj.

FAs the world book clearly details, everyone in Splugorth society except the Splugorth, highlords, conservators, overlords, powerlords and slavers serve unwillingly

Supply a quote supporting this please.

have no rights not granted to them by their Splugorth masters

Rights don't exist anywhere without them being granted by someone.

the best they can hope to attain is co-equal status with a trusted slave like the maxi-man.

Wrong, see previous explanation.

Kitanni are slaves, plain and simple.

The majority are not.

[Leo H]

Atlantis world book page 18 describes the categories of Splugorth minions and slaves. It is very clear the Highlords, Conservators, Powerlords, Overlords, and Slavers are willing servants. Everyone else isn't.

I looked at 18 and didn't notice wording to support this, could you specify which portions of the page you're talking about?

Where does it say the Kittani are unwilling? All I'm seeing is that they're not among the 'elite'.

All I'm seeing is that they have to obey the laws and that Kydians are more favored. Minions are described distinctly from slaves, and it's even mentioned they can own them.


Okay, so you have a problem with the word slave as applied to the Kittani. Fine, that's understandable as it is a word that has negative social connotations. Nowhere in the book does it describe them as more than a race of people who made a deal to serve the Splugorth. They are not elite minions. That much is clear from the book. The deal they made is (in my opinion) unfair but that is a matter of opinion. On the other hand I can say I find your assertions that the Maximen are not slaves may be in error. Now, to be fair, the book does not help because it says minions are above slaves. Minions are servants who are above slaves. Yet in their description it plainly says they are elite warrior slaves trained from childhood to fill a role. Their description even goes on to talk about how the Splugorth can't create enough of them to supply the demand for them. Yet, you assert that even though they are sold they are not slaves. So, your assertion is that the ones on the chart are not the ones sold even though that's what the book says they are made for?

[Tor]

I find your assertions that the Maximen are not slaves may be in error. Now, to be fair, the book does not help because it says minions are above slaves. Minions are servants who are above slaves. Yet in their description it plainly says they are elite warrior slaves trained from childhood to fill a role. Their description even goes on to talk about how the Splugorth can't create enough of them to supply the demand for them. Yet, you assert that even though they are sold they are not slaves.

I encourage you to re-read my post.

They all start out as slaves. The majority of Maxi-Men are probably still slaves.

However the ones in the 'minion' chart are not slaves. They are free Maxi-Men, nobody on that list is a slave except for 'slaves', it is mutually exclusive.

Courageous and loyal maxi-men can earn freedom, those are the ones who rank equal to the Kittani. This is not all Maxi-Men, merely a portion of them.

Yes, even though they are made to be sold, the ones who are sold are NOT the ones on the chart.

Why would Maxi-Men sold to non-Splugorth entities hold rank in the Splugorth army? That wouldn't make any sense. The chart is clearly for those who remain Minions of Splugorth, free entities who ally with the Splugorth and serve them.

[Leo H]

I find your assertions that the Maximen are not slaves may be in error. Now, to be fair, the book does not help because it says minions are above slaves. Minions are servants who are above slaves. Yet in their description it plainly says they are elite warrior slaves trained from childhood to fill a role. Their description even goes on to talk about how the Splugorth can't create enough of them to supply the demand for them. Yet, you assert that even though they are sold they are not slaves.

I encourage you to re-read my post.

They all start out as slaves. The majority of Maxi-Men are probably still slaves.

However the ones in the 'minion' chart are not slaves. They are free Maxi-Men, nobody on that list is a slave except for 'slaves', it is mutually exclusive.

Courageous and loyal maxi-men can earn freedom, those are the ones who rank equal to the Kittani. This is not all Maxi-Men, merely a portion of them.

Yes, even though they are made to be sold, the ones who are sold are NOT the ones on the chart.

Why would Maxi-Men sold to non-Splugorth entities hold rank in the Splugorth army? That wouldn't make any sense. The chart is clearly for those who remain Minions of Splugorth, free entities who ally with the Splugorth and serve them.

Okay, but for the record that goes against everything that is said on page 95 of the Atlantis book. If that's your interpretation of what's written fine, I'll have to agree to disagree with you on it.

[Tor]

No it doesn't, I specifically cited page 95 to support my point:

unlike most slaves, they .. receive special rewards of privilege and freedom for loyalty and courage. The Maxi-men can attain high positions of rank among the Splugorth minions

They do not inherently hold this high rank equal to Kittani. This is only possible for those who receive the reward of freedom, since then they are no longer classed as slaves.

As for the bit after what I quoted "more happy and accepting of their slavery", this means that even those yet to be freed from slavery are happy about it because they know they have the potential to be freed, not that they are all slaves even when they attain minion status or become governors.

[Jorick]

A slave is someone bought and sold. A slave is a person who is property. That's it. That is the only characteristic of "slave." If the a Splugorth says "this is my property and YOU have to listen to everything it says ('you' being the entire unowned society)," then the slave has a more power/status than the rest of the society. A slave can, in effect, have more "rights" than a "free person." Indeed, being the property of the most powerful guy is probably a really good way to get privileges over less powerful, non-legally-bound people.

In a society where power trumps what might otherwise be considered "rule of law," this is most certainly the case. But even in a society that is ordered by some "rule of law," the law could give greater rights and privileges to one who is the property of another.

Again, being property is the only necessary characteristic of a slave.

Maxi-men, therefore, could be slaves and have high status (high minion status) at the same time. These things need not be mutually exclusive.



The confusion comes only when one believes in anglo-american/modern/western/whatever "natural rights." If all humans are created equal, and all the legal privileges of an individual are born of that fact, then a slave is inherently something less than human (or rather is proscribed from being considered human), because a slave is defined not by his natural legal privilege, but by his condition as the property of another.

A belief in/comprehension of natural rights is not the case in most societies in history. There are usually tiers of legal privilege. In no case is the population of a tier with lesser privileges enslaved, except when that population is considered property.

The definition on "property," what that entails/requires, can be very broad and differ dramatically from society to society.

[Tor]

However, rank aside, it says they can receive freedom as a reward, so I posit those are the ones ranked above slave in the chart.

[kaid]

Also having lived under the splugorth for so long kitanni are a pretty valued minion race which means in the general pecking order of that society they are doing pretty good. I am not sure the average kitanni would see anything particularly wrong with their society or their place in it. As a pretty militaristic society it makes them much more prone to fall into line and follow the pecking order.

In general they are in a position they don't directly feel the lash much any more but I think they all understand if they got to far out of line what the consequences would be.

[eliakon]

A slave is someone bought and sold. A slave is a person who is property. That's it. That is the only characteristic of "slave." If the a Splugorth says "this is my property and YOU have to listen to everything it says ('you' being the entire unowned society)," then the slave has a more power/status than the rest of the society. A slave can, in effect, have more "rights" than a "free person." Indeed, being the property of the most powerful guy is probably a really good way to get privileges over less powerful, non-legally-bound people.

In a society where power trumps what might otherwise be considered "rule of law," this is most certainly the case. But even in a society that is ordered by some "rule of law," the law could give greater rights and privileges to one who is the property of another.

Again, being property is the only necessary characteristic of a slave.

Maxi-men, therefore, could be slaves and have high status (high minion status) at the same time. These things need not be mutually exclusive.



The confusion comes only when one believes in anglo-american/modern/western/whatever "natural rights." If all humans are created equal, and all the legal privileges of an individual are born of that fact, then a slave is inherently something less than human (or rather is proscribed from being considered human), because a slave is defined not by his natural legal privilege, but by his condition as the property of another.

A belief in/comprehension of natural rights is not the case in most societies in history. There are usually tiers of legal privilege. In no case is the population of a tier with lesser privileges enslaved, except when that population is considered property.

The definition on "property," what that entails/requires, can be very broad and differ dramatically from society to society.

Thank you for this point.
I would expand on it by noting that the Kitani(and it seems the entire Splugorth system) is quite hierarchical. A soldier is not a slave, not even a drafted soldier. They are still a 'freeman' they just have to follow orders due to the law in their society. A slave solider is a slave yes....but a citizen soldier, even one who is serving unwillingly (Draft, Impressment, Mandatory Service, etc.) is not (unless we are willing to define the entire population of Switzerland as slaves of course.....).

[Ed]

However, rank aside, it says they can receive freedom as a reward, so I posit those are the ones ranked above slave in the chart.

World Book Atlantis: Page 18 clearly states all achievements of any but the Elite Minions, which the Kitanni are definitely NOT, are an illusion. The races ranked above slave are slaves with different titles or affiliates treated like a more or less favored slave.

[Ed]

A slave is someone bought and sold. A slave is a person who is property. That's it. That is the only characteristic of "slave." If the a Splugorth says "this is my property and YOU have to listen to everything it says ('you' being the entire unowned society)," then the slave has a more power/status than the rest of the society. A slave can, in effect, have more "rights" than a "free person." Indeed, being the property of the most powerful guy is probably a really good way to get privileges over less powerful, non-legally-bound people.

In a society where power trumps what might otherwise be considered "rule of law," this is most certainly the case. But even in a society that is ordered by some "rule of law," the law could give greater rights and privileges to one who is the property of another.

Again, being property is the only necessary characteristic of a slave.

Maxi-men, therefore, could be slaves and have high status (high minion status) at the same time. These things need not be mutually exclusive.



The confusion comes only when one believes in anglo-american/modern/western/whatever "natural rights." If all humans are created equal, and all the legal privileges of an individual are born of that fact, then a slave is inherently something less than human (or rather is proscribed from being considered human), because a slave is defined not by his natural legal privilege, but by his condition as the property of another.

A belief in/comprehension of natural rights is not the case in most societies in history. There are usually tiers of legal privilege. In no case is the population of a tier with lesser privileges enslaved, except when that population is considered property.

The definition on "property," what that entails/requires, can be very broad and differ dramatically from society to society.

Thank you for this point.
I would expand on it by noting that the Kitani(and it seems the entire Splugorth system) is quite hierarchical. A soldier is not a slave, not even a drafted soldier. They are still a 'freeman' they just have to follow orders due to the law in their society. A slave solider is a slave yes....but a citizen soldier, even one who is serving unwillingly (Draft, Impressment, Mandatory Service, etc.) is not (unless we are willing to define the entire population of Switzerland as slaves of course.....).

Nice theory. Completely contradicted by canon.

[Ed]

Atlantis world book page 18 describes the categories of Splugorth minions and slaves. It is very clear the Highlords, Conservators, Powerlords, Overlords, and Slavers are willing servants. Everyone else isn't. The Kitanni and suspiciously absent from the listing of willing servants. Moreover the next paragraph details the various rights and privileges attained by the Kitanni only exist because the Splugorth "allow" them, and the amount of freedom and self determination within Splugorth society is revealed to be an illusion.

Finally, for all the blathering about the hierarchy of Minions chart the fact the Kitanni are on the same tier as the maxi-man reveals their actual place in society is the same as the maxi-man. A quick word count in the description of the maxi-man, reveals the word slave mentioned almost a dozen times.

As the world book clearly details, everyone in Splugorth society except the Splugorth, highlords, conservators, overlords, powerlords and slavers serve unwillingly, or not by choice, have no rights not granted to them by their Splugorth masters and the best they can hope to attain is co-equal status with a trusted slave like the maxi-man.

Kitanni are slaves, plain and simple.

Kittani AREN'T slaves, that's plain and simple. There's nothing suspicious about then not being on that list, nor does not being on that list mean one must be on the list of slaves instead.They aren't slaves, period.

Prove it. Supply quotes from the relevant text contradicting the data on Atlantis page 18.

[taalismn]

The thing is, there's varying degrees of slavery. Are the Kittani bought and sold on the open market? No. Might the Splugorth be trading in Kittani populations out of sight and on a different level of existence a(and time scale)? Possibly. Likely. It would help explain how the Kittani ended up spread across the various Splugorth kingdoms and why Atlantis Kittani are limited in what they can produce, while Three Galaxies Kittani are messing around in starships.
Creatures like the Splugorth can practice different forms of slavery at different time scales and levels of operation. The bulk of what we regard as blatant slaves, stripped, whipped, sold, and eaten, can more obviously be treated like chattel. More useful species, like the Kittani, are seduced and more subtly manipulated, given more leeway like trusted prison inmates, and shaped such that their cultures become self-reinforcing of the restraints placed in them. From their POV, they're honoring old and trusted agreements that keep their people both safe and in good with a major power bloc in the Megaverse, but their pre-pact ancestors might, if they saw what their descendants have become, might have a very different view of the situation. The Splugorth have gamed them over generations(or in effect BRED them like prize hunting dogs) to not )for the most part) question their restraints.

[Nightmask]

Atlantis world book page 18 describes the categories of Splugorth minions and slaves. It is very clear the Highlords, Conservators, Powerlords, Overlords, and Slavers are willing servants. Everyone else isn't. The Kitanni and suspiciously absent from the listing of willing servants. Moreover the next paragraph details the various rights and privileges attained by the Kitanni only exist because the Splugorth "allow" them, and the amount of freedom and self determination within Splugorth society is revealed to be an illusion.

Finally, for all the blathering about the hierarchy of Minions chart the fact the Kitanni are on the same tier as the maxi-man reveals their actual place in society is the same as the maxi-man. A quick word count in the description of the maxi-man, reveals the word slave mentioned almost a dozen times.

As the world book clearly details, everyone in Splugorth society except the Splugorth, highlords, conservators, overlords, powerlords and slavers serve unwillingly, or not by choice, have no rights not granted to them by their Splugorth masters and the best they can hope to attain is co-equal status with a trusted slave like the maxi-man.

Kitanni are slaves, plain and simple.

Kittani AREN'T slaves, that's plain and simple. There's nothing suspicious about then not being on that list, nor does not being on that list mean one must be on the list of slaves instead.They aren't slaves, period.

Prove it. Supply quotes from the relevant text contradicting the data on Atlantis page 18.

Said data does NOT list them as slaves, so YOU are the one failing to meet the burden of proof of your contention. You are declaring that in spite of them NOT fitting the criteria for being a slave that they're actually slaves anyway, which requires you to provide overwhelming proof in support of your contention. Proof that you've failed to provide, and spin-doctoring labels and coming up with your own way of defining things is NOT proof.

[eliakon]

A slave is someone bought and sold. A slave is a person who is property. That's it. That is the only characteristic of "slave." If the a Splugorth says "this is my property and YOU have to listen to everything it says ('you' being the entire unowned society)," then the slave has a more power/status than the rest of the society. A slave can, in effect, have more "rights" than a "free person." Indeed, being the property of the most powerful guy is probably a really good way to get privileges over less powerful, non-legally-bound people.

In a society where power trumps what might otherwise be considered "rule of law," this is most certainly the case. But even in a society that is ordered by some "rule of law," the law could give greater rights and privileges to one who is the property of another.

Again, being property is the only necessary characteristic of a slave.

Maxi-men, therefore, could be slaves and have high status (high minion status) at the same time. These things need not be mutually exclusive.



The confusion comes only when one believes in anglo-american/modern/western/whatever "natural rights." If all humans are created equal, and all the legal privileges of an individual are born of that fact, then a slave is inherently something less than human (or rather is proscribed from being considered human), because a slave is defined not by his natural legal privilege, but by his condition as the property of another.

A belief in/comprehension of natural rights is not the case in most societies in history. There are usually tiers of legal privilege. In no case is the population of a tier with lesser privileges enslaved, except when that population is considered property.

The definition on "property," what that entails/requires, can be very broad and differ dramatically from society to society.

Thank you for this point.
I would expand on it by noting that the Kitani(and it seems the entire Splugorth system) is quite hierarchical. A soldier is not a slave, not even a drafted soldier. They are still a 'freeman' they just have to follow orders due to the law in their society. A slave solider is a slave yes....but a citizen soldier, even one who is serving unwillingly (Draft, Impressment, Mandatory Service, etc.) is not (unless we are willing to define the entire population of Switzerland as slaves of course.....).

Nice theory. Completely contradicted by canon.

Oh? Do tell. What exactly is contradicted in it, and which points of canon do the contradicting?
Because AFAIK there is not a single line in a single book establishing that soldiers are slaves, nor that the Swiss are slaves, nor that the Splugorth society is anything but Hierarchical (since they explicitly have a hierarchy of who is in charge of who and a chain of command and everything.)
I would be fascinated to read the canon material that contradicts this.

[Library Ogre]

I would say that the Kittani are slaves, though not individual chattel slaves. They are the property of Splynncrth (forbidden, for example, from conquering on their own), but not at the bottom of the totem pole. After all, Kittani who rebel against the Splugorth have a more abject slavery to look forward to.

I'd say that whether they are slaves, minions, servitors, or what have you is a matter of semantics; Splynncrth owns everyone below him. High Lords? Slaves. Kydians? Slaves. Slavers? Slaves. There might be levels of rank and degrees of autonomy within this slavery, but they're

The Kittani, as a race, are owned by Splynncrth. They do what he tells them. They have no choice, because of an oath sworn while humans were in the paleolithic. The Kittani have been a slave race to Splynncrth since before Atlantis rose. If they're good and obedient slaves, they get to do most of what they want. They have property (at least nominally), they have families, they have jobs. Splynn tells them what to do, when he needs something from them... but he doesn't run their daily lives. And they're aware that they can fall further, into a more abject and personal slavery.

[Svartalf]

To me it's pretty simple. A slave is defined as "Property who can be bought and sold and must do as they are told". Minions only meet part of that definition. They have to do what they are told, but they cannot be bought, sold, or traded amoung splurgorth or anyone else. thus by definition they cannot be slaves.

They are much closer to Serfs.

Maybe the word vassal would work in place of Minion?

Vassal implies obligations on the part of the suzerain/vassor, whereas a minion cannot expect his Master to rise in his defence if he's mistreated, or demand a fief in exchange for continued service.

[Tor]

However, rank aside, it says they can receive freedom as a reward, so I posit those are the ones ranked above slave in the chart.

World Book Atlantis: Page 18 clearly states all achievements of any but the Elite Minions, which the Kitanni are definitely NOT, are an illusion.

Not sure what you mean about achievements but did underline the "freedom within the Splugorth society is an illusion" bit.

That doesn't matter. Freedom is always an illusion. There is never such a thing as omnipotent perfect freedom. We're all slaves to the laws of nature for example, to the need for resources. There's only relative amounts of it. You can call freedom an illusion under every single society that exists today on Earth.

Freedom being illusory doesn't mean those with less of it slaves.

The races ranked above slave are slaves with different titles or affiliates treated like a more or less favored slave.

The book clearly defines what slaves are, and you are injecting your own contrasting opinions about what slavery is here.

Yes, the Splugorth investigate and eliminate teachery, so what? Every government does that. Per the heading also on the right column of WB2p18, "Slaves" are forced to serve, and Kittani are NOT forced to serve. They can laze around and play video games if they want to, Splynncryth isn't going to jail them for it, just probably not pay them and maybe shame them or something.

We are told all slaves are greatly inferior to the lowest minion (even the Sunaj). We are told that slaves can eventually be given freedom and allowed to become a lesser minion.

It tells us that a lesser minion is "somebody who is comparatively free but dedicated to serving".

There is nothing wrong with 'comparatively' because ALL freedom is comparative.

They are the property of Splynncrth (forbidden, for example, from conquering on their own)

Pretty sure our governments would also prevent us from going out and conquering other countries, does that make us slaves?

The Kittani, as a race, are owned by Splynncrth. They do what he tells them. They have no choice, because of an oath sworn while humans were in the paleolithic.

Source?

Where are we told that Splynncryth "owns" them or that they have "no choice"? Kittani are persecuted if they engage in treachery, but that doesn't mean that simple non-participation qualifies as treachery.

The Kittani have been a slave race to Splynncrth since before Atlantis rose.

Still ignoring the burden of supporting the Kittani/Splugorth Atlantis as being slavery.

In fact... if it was Splynncryth who made this agreement, why exactly are the Kittani free to go serve rival Splugorth, hm?

[Svartalf]

If taking a deal under duress makes a people slaves then all Japan are slaves to the US. We nuked them to get them to agree to surrender.

If that was all then I'd agree with you. Deals under duress aren't fair but you're right that a slave does not make. I'm hazy on the actual deal Japan had to sign but they have some cool tech and a say in things. I've made my case for why I believe they are enslaved by the Splugorth. If that's not how you see it so be it. Thing is, they are still minions who serve the Splugorth empire. They've had 38,000 years maybe more to earn a better spot with the Empire. It hadn't happened yet but hey what do I know.

That seamed to be a big part of the case some posters where making. That it is the deal that was made the is why they are slaves.

Let me ask you this does the book every clearly call them slaves or allies of sploogy?

If they are allies that work with and serve in the sploogy military then they may have a lower social standing as they are not deemed citizens proper.

If they are slaves they have no say or rights.

Okay, by the book, they are allies of the Splugorth that don't go out on military exercises unsupervised. There is always a supervising Elite minion with them from what I understand. So, the slavery thing aside, can we agree at least on second class citizens in the empire?

The only full citizen of the Empire is Splynncryth himself, or the Splugorth themselves in general

[Tor]

What def are we going with for here? First I found: "legally recognized as a member of a state, with associated rights and obligations"

I don't see how this wouldn't apply to Kittani.

[Svartalf]

Nightmask, go read up on what a slave is in different cultures. then go read the description of the minions.

ask yourself "what do you call a person who is owned by another being?" "what do you call a person who is prevented from living as they will away from the control of a person who owns your race" "what do you call a person who is strictly controlled by another being and who cannot leave that control without being killed?"

they are definitely slaves. they are just favored slaves with a number of extra perks.

The Kittani aren't owned by the Splugorth, just because they're in servitude doesn't make them slaves. All societies impose a measure of control on its members, some harsher than others but that doesn't make one a slave. Evil societies are obviously going to be on the harsher side so that even the non-slaves are having to worry about harsh rules to contend with. The Kittani therefor fit into the spot between rulers and slaves, they aren't slaves but aren't fully in control of their choices like rulers either. Which is why they're minions, they aren't slaves but they aren't at the top of the heap either.

The Kittani aren't in servitude to the Sploogs, but in sujetion, they are a subject race, not chattel slaves... the Sploogs use higher level minions to order them about, but they don't trade them on their slave markets... that's the main difference between being minions and slaves, at least as far as Sploog society is concerned. Slaves can be sold or killed at will, minions are ordered about and only killed or reduced to servitude if they misperform and deserve punishment.

[Svartalf]

It's just a lame term. You can argue about whether they are bound or merely eternally paying a debt, but I think the point of calling them slaves is that they'll never be free of the splugorth.

Odds of them deserting the Splugorth en masse are negligible, because doing so likely means destruction for them, as they'd lose the protection the Splugorth afford them, and would at the same time gain their enmity and start a war they cannot win, unless they gain an ally that can protect them from the Splugorth (TGE anybody?).

What's sure is that there's no seeing them turning into an independent race in sight.

[Ed]

Said data does NOT list them as slaves, so YOU are the one failing to meet the burden of proof of your contention. You are declaring that in spite of them NOT fitting the criteria for being a slave that they're actually slaves anyway, which requires you to provide overwhelming proof in support of your contention. Proof that you've failed to provide, and spin-doctoring labels and coming up with your own way of defining things is NOT proof.

One of the simplest definitions of slavery is the absence of freedom. World Book Atlantis clearly states any and all freedom the Kitanni have is an illusion. Ergo, they are not free. Ergo, they fit the definition of a slave.

Overwhelming and clear.

[Ed]

However, rank aside, it says they can receive freedom as a reward, so I posit those are the ones ranked above slave in the chart.

World Book Atlantis: Page 18 clearly states all achievements of any but the Elite Minions, which the Kitanni are definitely NOT, are an illusion.

Not sure what you mean about achievements but did underline the "freedom within the Splugorth society is an illusion" bit.

Good. And since illusion is pretty much the opposite of reality someone with the illusion of freedom would be what?

That doesn't matter. Freedom is always an illusion. There is never such a thing as omnipotent perfect freedom. We're all slaves to the laws of nature for example, to the need for resources. There's only relative amounts of it. You can call freedom an illusion under every single society that exists today on Earth.

Freedom being illusory doesn't mean those with less of it slaves.

LOL. Political freedom is definitely not the same thing as the laws of physics. Does every single society today kill you if you try to leave?

The book clearly defines what slaves are, and you are injecting your own contrasting opinions about what slavery is here.

No. I am applying a consistent definition.

Yes, the Splugorth investigate and eliminate teachery, so what? Every government does that. Per the heading also on the right column of WB2p18, "Slaves" are forced to serve, and Kittani are NOT forced to serve.

Since treachery in Splugorth society is defined as not doing what you are told with no other choice than death; the Kitanni are forced to serve.

They can laze around and play video games if they want to, Splynncryth isn't going to jail them for it, just probably not pay them and maybe shame them or something.

Proof? This contradicts the established freedom is an illusion aspect of Splugorth society.

We are told all slaves are greatly inferior to the lowest minion (even the Sunaj). We are told that slaves can eventually be given freedom and allowed to become a lesser minion.

Getting promoted to a slave with a fancy title is still a slave.

It tells us that a lesser minion is "somebody who is comparatively free but dedicated to serving".

There is nothing wrong with 'comparatively' because ALL freedom is comparative.

Their freedom is an illusion, even the comparative kind.

In fact... if it was Splynncryth who made this agreement, why exactly are the Kittani free to go serve rival Splugorth, hm?

They were sold or traded between their masters.

[Nightmask]

Said data does NOT list them as slaves, so YOU are the one failing to meet the burden of proof of your contention. You are declaring that in spite of them NOT fitting the criteria for being a slave that they're actually slaves anyway, which requires you to provide overwhelming proof in support of your contention. Proof that you've failed to provide, and spin-doctoring labels and coming up with your own way of defining things is NOT proof.

One of the simplest definitions of slavery is the absence of freedom. World Book Atlantis clearly states any and all freedom the Kitanni have is an illusion. Ergo, they are not free. Ergo, they fit the definition of a slave.

Overwhelming and clear.

Not even remotely. YOU are just as much a slave as the Kittani are going by that definition, yet you'll insist you aren't. The Kittani aren't slaves either, no matter how much you try and spin a definition of slavery broad enough to fit because it makes virtually everything qualify as a slave and such definitions are then worthless because if everyone's pretty much a slave then no one really is because the term has no meaning now.