Forums of the Megaverse®

According to High Seas 2nd Ed, Demon Black Ships have a crew that includes 6-12 summoners and a large number of circles drawn into the decks, including many protection circles against the ships' crews. This suggests to me that these circles don't go very high, which supports the spherical interpretation.

The whole point of the thread is the effects of the circle not the CIRCLE itself... who cares if the circle is 2D? we all agree on that, what matters is the 3D volume that the effects can extend to.

The book clearly indicates that the effects of the circle (which is just 2D) MUST extend upwards (making the volume it protects/effects a 3D shape ie volume of some kind). It has to effect a volume (which by definition is 3D), not simply a 2D area of land, to be useful... and by book descriptions it does cause effects beyond the plane on which the circle resides.

Geometry says a circle (to paraphrase) is an infinite set of points (nondimensional objects) that all reside in the same plane and are equidistant from a single point. It defines that plane into 2 regions inside the circle and outside. The only way to be "in" the circle is to be either in (or possibly on) the same 2D plane and inside somewhere between the point at the center and the points that make up the circumference. If you are not touching the plane (or possibly a 1D or 2D figure that resides on the plane AND are inside the circumference of the circle) then you cannot be considered "in" a simple 2D figure. We however for game purposes ignore the ACTUAL definition of what it means to be "in" a circle and rather go by common sense (which some people seem to lack). But then you get into 3D volumes that can actually encompass something (like a character) that also exists in 3D. That 3D volume that is actually effected is what the thread is about. Not at all about the circle itself.

To that end I play it that the "volume" affected by the "circle" is a cylinder that is tall enough to enclose the occupant(s) regardless of if they are touching the plane on which the circle is drawn or not.

so how far above a circle will say, a 30ft demon get zapped for damage when it tries to reach in to grab those pesky pc's, and what happens if one tries to burrow underneath to compromise the circle.

Hrmmm, what about a distortable sphere? The 'default' shape is that of a sphere. BUT an object that is inside that sphere will be fully protected...I.e. the 'shield' will 'extend'/'distort' to protect them.

certainly sounds reasonable

I personally feel that the best way to rule it would to be that the Circle's effect area is a cylinder roughly the height of the diameter of the circle itself.

kiralon wrote:so how far above a circle will say, a 30ft demon get zapped for damage when it tries to reach in to grab those pesky pc's,

Assuming it fails its saving throw, anywhere from slightly less than 10 feet above the tallest circle occupant to the moment it touches an occupant, depending on the power of the demon (lesser vs greater). 10 feet is the range of most circles but you'll want to consult each one individually as I think a couple of them list a different number for range.

kiralon wrote:and what happens if one tries to burrow underneath to compromise the circle.

Once it gets to within anywhere from 10 feet below the circle to just underneath it the demon will need to save in order to get any closer without taking damage or suffering penalties - depending on the power of the demon (lesser vs greater). 10 feet is the range of most circles but you'll want to consult each one individually as I think a couple of them list a different number for range.

wyrmraker wrote:I personally feel that the best way to rule it would to be that the Circle's effect area is a cylinder roughly the height of the diameter of the circle itself.

This seems the most-convenient approach for gaming purposes, though an ellipsoid (elongated sphere) would look prettier.

wyrmraker wrote:I personally feel that the best way to rule it would to be that the Circle's effect area is a cylinder roughly the height of the diameter of the circle itself.

But if you draw a circle that is say 3-4 foot diameter then you would have to crouch or kneel in it. Its not a bad solution mechanics wise but then you have to always make the circle a bit wider than the tallest occupant that needs to be protected and that could waste resources if a smaller diameter circle would do (if its height was variable based on the occupants).

Thinyser wrote:

wyrmraker wrote:I personally feel that the best way to rule it would to be that the Circle's effect area is a cylinder roughly the height of the diameter of the circle itself.

But if you draw a circle that is say 3-4 foot diameter then you would have to crouch or kneel in it. Its not a bad solution mechanics wise but then you have to always make the circle a bit wider than the tallest occupant that needs to be protected and that could waste resources if a smaller diameter circle would do (if its height was variable based on the occupants).

That's why I mentioned 'roughly'. That attempts to take into account a bit of common sense.

wyrmraker wrote:

Thinyser wrote:

wyrmraker wrote:I personally feel that the best way to rule it would to be that the Circle's effect area is a cylinder roughly the height of the diameter of the circle itself.

But if you draw a circle that is say 3-4 foot diameter then you would have to crouch or kneel in it. Its not a bad solution mechanics wise but then you have to always make the circle a bit wider than the tallest occupant that needs to be protected and that could waste resources if a smaller diameter circle would do (if its height was variable based on the occupants).

That's why I mentioned 'roughly'. That attempts to take into account a bit of common sense.

The authors relying on "common sense" is what's getting us all into this debate to begin with. A previous poster mentioned using height of protection twice the diameter of the circle. Using a 4 ft circle, that's 8 ft, enough to accommodate most everyone's height. Any smaller in diameter, you're probably not going to cover the girth of the person(s) in the circle that are tall enough to worry about their heads.

wyrmraker wrote:

Thinyser wrote:

wyrmraker wrote:I personally feel that the best way to rule it would to be that the Circle's effect area is a cylinder roughly the height of the diameter of the circle itself.

But if you draw a circle that is say 3-4 foot diameter then you would have to crouch or kneel in it. Its not a bad solution mechanics wise but then you have to always make the circle a bit wider than the tallest occupant that needs to be protected and that could waste resources if a smaller diameter circle would do (if its height was variable based on the occupants).

That's why I mentioned 'roughly'. That attempts to take into account a bit of common sense.

I'm all for common sense but while a 3 foot diameter circle could easily surround a 7 foot tall elf, I don't think that a 7 foot tall cylinder (which is 233% times taller it's 3' diameter) is even close to "roughly". My common sense agrees with math in this case. If you more than double the diameter for the height its no longer roughly close IMO. I would maybe allow a 50% taller than diameter to be "roughly" the same but even that's pushing it.

In most cases I personally think of "roughly" as within 1/2 of one unit of measurement so if something is roughly 6 inches then its between 5.5 & 6.5 inches If someone is roughly 6 feet tall then they are no shorter than 5.5 feet and no taller than 6.5 feet. I acknowledge this is not perfect either since using Metric can lead to big issues like being too precise with the term roughly (its roughly 6cm would mean that its 5.5 to 6.5 cm which is probably more precise than is meant by "roughly") or very imprecise (The man was roughly 2m tall could mean he is 1.5-2.5 m tall which is a huge variation).

I just think for clarity's sake that there should be a defined (though variable) size, which is related to the size of the being(s) inside the circle.

Hotrod wrote:

wyrmraker wrote:I personally feel that the best way to rule it would to be that the Circle's effect area is a cylinder roughly the height of the diameter of the circle itself.

This seems the most-convenient approach for gaming purposes, though an ellipsoid (elongated sphere) would look prettier.

I have to say that the most convenient approach for gaming purposes is to not get so specific about these things... Hence the way the rules are written.. micro-managing details is a good way to take the fun out of gaming.

MADMANMIKE wrote:

Hotrod wrote:

wyrmraker wrote:I personally feel that the best way to rule it would to be that the Circle's effect area is a cylinder roughly the height of the diameter of the circle itself.

This seems the most-convenient approach for gaming purposes, though an ellipsoid (elongated sphere) would look prettier.

I have to say that the most convenient approach for gaming purposes is to not get so specific about these things... Hence the way the rules are written.. micro-managing details is a good way to take the fun out of gaming.

Unfortunately what do you do when the summoner in the group asks (and as the summoner should probably know), and then tries it.

kiralon wrote:Unfortunately what do you do when the summoner in the group asks (and as the summoner should probably know), and then tries it.

You point to the cardinal rule of RPGs: The G.M. has final say.

I don't tolerate shenanigans in my games. Everyone is there to have fun (this includes the G.M.) and nobody is allowed to do it at anybody else's expense. And rules-lawyering breaks the flow and bogs down a game.

Also, as a G.M., you control what material components a Summoner has on hand at any given time, and more importantly, the quantity. Note that a first level Summoner does not start with much in the way of material components, so the G.M. has an opportunity to keep them on a reasonable leash.

MADMANMIKE wrote:

kiralon wrote:Unfortunately what do you do when the summoner in the group asks (and as the summoner should probably know), and then tries it.

You point to the cardinal rule of RPGs: The G.M. has final say.

I don't tolerate shenanigans in my games. Everyone is there to have fun (this includes the G.M.) and nobody is allowed to do it at anybody else's expense. And rules-lawyering breaks the flow and bogs down a game.

Also, as a G.M., you control what material components a Summoner has on hand at any given time, and more importantly, the quantity. Note that a first level Summoner does not start with much in the way of material components, so the G.M. has an opportunity to keep them on a reasonable leash.

Define rules-lawyering.

My definition is making the strict interpretation of a rule get in the way of advancing the story. Both players and GMs can be rules lawyers by this definition, though the term tends to be applied more to players, since the GM is more of a judge/referee.

MADMANMIKE wrote:

kiralon wrote:Unfortunately what do you do when the summoner in the group asks (and as the summoner should probably know), and then tries it.

You point to the cardinal rule of RPGs: The G.M. has final say.

I don't tolerate shenanigans in my games. Everyone is there to have fun (this includes the G.M.) and nobody is allowed to do it at anybody else's expense. And rules-lawyering breaks the flow and bogs down a game.

Also, as a G.M., you control what material components a Summoner has on hand at any given time, and more importantly, the quantity. Note that a first level Summoner does not start with much in the way of material components, so the G.M. has an opportunity to keep them on a reasonable leash.

Well this for me was mostly about the demon and devil protection circles if you haven't guessed, the components are holy water makeable by the priest in the party, or the blood of the priest in the party. (I can tell you which one the priest prefers).
and as to rules lawyering the game needs rules for its structure, and the height that the circle effects is just one of the many things that I think should be in the book, and just for my enjoyment the rules need some semblance of logic rather than I said so. The answer of its maaagggiiiiiiccc really has only ever bugged me as a player and a DM. But for me storyline beats rules if the storyline has logic behind, so if something that the bad guys get breaks a rule, the pc's can do it too, and even though the DM has final say id prefer to convince someone of something than just say its like this, like it or lump it, and if it seems logical its easier to convince people, well the people I play with anyhow.

MADMANMIKE wrote:

Hotrod wrote:

wyrmraker wrote:I personally feel that the best way to rule it would to be that the Circle's effect area is a cylinder roughly the height of the diameter of the circle itself.

This seems the most-convenient approach for gaming purposes, though an ellipsoid (elongated sphere) would look prettier.

I have to say that the most convenient approach for gaming purposes is to not get so specific about these things... Hence the way the rules are written.. micro-managing details is a good way to take the fun out of gaming.

That to me is a cop out though. If the game is going to go and stat out the OTHER spells, and their ranges.....its not micro-managing to do that for the a THIRD of the magic in the basic book....its sloppy not to. Now if this was something like MtA or Pendragon where all magic is 'go with the flow' sure, no need for stats. But if your going to do a crunchy stat heavy system then yah...you need to actually put numbers in stuff.
Just my 2 coppers.

Hotrod wrote:Excellent question! I had always assumed that they were cylinders, but the spherical interpretation seems far more balanced and reasonable than a 5-foot circle that reaches into the stratosphere.

I rather agree. And I as well, like the question.

I do not know why, but I have often thought of armor of ithan as being more "merkaba" shaped.

pblackcrow wrote:

Hotrod wrote:Excellent question! I had always assumed that they were cylinders, but the spherical interpretation seems far more balanced and reasonable than a 5-foot circle that reaches into the stratosphere.

I rather agree. And I as well, like the question.

I do not know why, but I have often thought of armor of ithan as being more "merkaba" shaped.

Now that seems odd to me. I've always pictured AoI as a near transparent suit of armor, kinda like the shields on the old Dune movie (with Kyle McLaughlin) but even more transparent (less obscuring/refractive) and less boxy in form but still with angles and facets.

arouetta wrote:

wyrmraker wrote:

Thinyser wrote:

wyrmraker wrote:I personally feel that the best way to rule it would to be that the Circle's effect area is a cylinder roughly the height of the diameter of the circle itself.

But if you draw a circle that is say 3-4 foot diameter then you would have to crouch or kneel in it. Its not a bad solution mechanics wise but then you have to always make the circle a bit wider than the tallest occupant that needs to be protected and that could waste resources if a smaller diameter circle would do (if its height was variable based on the occupants).

That's why I mentioned 'roughly'. That attempts to take into account a bit of common sense.

The authors relying on "common sense" is what's getting us all into this debate to begin with. A previous poster mentioned using height of protection twice the diameter of the circle.

So very very true.

Someone also seems to have gotten too caught up on it being called a circle rather than a square or hexagon of protection. As far as that goes though I'm not seeing why anyone would think it was a sphere encompassing things rather than a cylinder, the amount of volume and flexible space available is far too limited unless you've got a huge circle to fit more than a couple of people inside and they'd have to be crouched down or curled up to fit inside. With regards to how high up it needs to go, however high to include the tallest being inside being protected plus the distance that it keeps blocked effects/creatures at bay.

No where in the reported post do I see the poster referring to anyone as being stupid. If you are going to report someone for saying something, please report a post where the user actually says what you claim.

I find this thread amusing thanks for being so entertaining!

Thinyser wrote::lol:

Would you prefer to add some actual constructive content to your post, remove it, or receive a warning for spam posting?

NMI wrote:

Thinyser wrote::lol:

Would you prefer to add some actual constructive content to your post, remove it, or receive a warning for spam posting?

I appreciate the opportunity to correct my previous post rather than simply being warned. You apply your moderation with a most even hand. Thank you.

Great question! I never really thought about it before. It's definitely worth a vote by our group.

I always imagined the effects of protection circle magic working like a "Spherical Cap" where most of the volume "sphere and protective bubble" was above the circle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_cap

However, regardless if you like bubbles or cylinders. The point is that the circle is supposed to protect its occupants from whatever thing that circle was designed to ward off.

I really don't like the infinite "spotlight" of protection locking down that sky above. This was never the intent. Neither was a 12 ft tall demon able to reach in from above an snag the occupant of the circle because he was 6ft 3in tall the the protective bubble was only 6ft tall.

Lukterran wrote:I always imagined the effects of protection circle magic working like a "Spherical Cap" where most of the volume "sphere and protective bubble" was above the circle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_cap

However, regardless if you like bubbles or cylinders. The point is that the circle is supposed to protect its occupants from whatever thing that circle was designed to ward off.

I really don't like the infinite "spotlight" of protection locking down that sky above. This was never the intent. Neither was a 12 ft tall demon able to reach in from above an snag the occupant of the circle because he was 6ft 3in tall the the protective bubble was only 6ft tall.

That's why it only extends far enough up to protect the tallest being/thing inside its boundaries from all directions including above. Since the data says that circles affect all those inside and references only how many can stand/lay/kneel/etc inside the surface of the circle (and even fewer when using some circles as only a quarter of the circle is applicable) it must be a cylinder because you can't fit anywhere close to as many inside a say 5' spherical dome as you can a cylinder extending up as high as the tallest being inside and the limit is given by the standing room not by the volume.

The real question is what is the default height of the protection when no one's inside.

A sphere/bubble would work if the center of the radius is located above the ground level. Say about chest high of a normal person.

Lukterran wrote:A sphere/bubble would work if the center of the radius is located above the ground level. Say about chest high of a normal person.

Except you can't then include the entire surface of the circle within the bubble, which should be covered as well, and not everyone who'd have a chance of being in such a bubble would qualify as a normal person in height to be properly covered. Really that's just complicating something that isn't and shouldn't be complicated, a cylinder is simple and straightforward with a reasonable cap on height so it's not extending off into infinity.

Lukterran wrote:A sphere/bubble would work if the center of the radius is located above the ground level. Say about chest high of a normal person.

But it says clearly that someone outside the circle needs to save and face penalties if crossing the circle. If it's a bubble, then there will be points where the area of protection will be within the outlines of the circle, as the bubble tapers inward. Even if the radius is located above ground, the tapering effect will allow someone to cross the outline both at ankle level and at head level.

A cylinder is the only logical answer. That way, no matter whether it be ankle level or head level, nothing can cross the outline of the circle.

arouetta wrote:

Lukterran wrote:A sphere/bubble would work if the center of the radius is located above the ground level. Say about chest high of a normal person.

But it says clearly that someone outside the circle needs to save and face penalties if crossing the circle. If it's a bubble, then there will be points where the area of protection will be within the outlines of the circle, as the bubble tapers inward. Even if the radius is located above ground, the tapering effect will allow someone to cross the outline both at ankle level and at head level.

A cylinder is the only logical answer. That way, no matter whether it be ankle level or head level, nothing can cross the outline of the circle.

I fear that there IS no 'logical' answer.
For some things a bubble is best, for some things a cylinder is best. They BOTH have problems (though I personally think that a limited cylinder would probably have the smallest can of worms attached though I am starting to like the 'deforming sphere' my self).

Lukterran wrote:I always imagined the effects of protection circle magic working like a "Spherical Cap" where most of the volume "sphere and protective bubble" was above the circle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_cap

However, regardless if you like bubbles or cylinders. The point is that the circle is supposed to protect its occupants from whatever thing that circle was designed to ward off.

I really don't like the infinite "spotlight" of protection locking down that sky above. This was never the intent. Neither was a 12 ft tall demon able to reach in from above an snag the occupant of the circle because he was 6ft 3in tall the the protective bubble was only 6ft tall.

I think a reverse/inverted spherical cap would be better. What I mean is that the larger portion is the part above the circle and the cap is the part underground. This way its kinda flares out at the surface the circle is on and the center point of the sphere is up in the air.

I think Mike is ignoring the importance of height considerations with the circle.

Basically there are questions raised like:

1) does a part of my body need to be in contact with the surface the circle is drawn on to be protected by it?
2) can I wear shoes, and if so, how tall can my heels/platforms/stilts/Devastator robot be?
3) if I do not need to be in direct contact, how high above the surface can I hover/fly and still be protected?
4) does a circle create a sphere of infinite height that a flying supernatural creature can't cross? IE no matter how high she flies, a Dire Harpy cannot cross a Protection from Deevils circle and high-altitude bomb the inhabitants?

Based on the 'diameter' statements, I am prone to deciding that the circle creates a protective cylinder with a height/length equal to the diameter of the circle face. As pretty as a protective sphere is, it would really increase the amount of math that needs to be done regarding hitting tall targets standing just inside the barrier.

For simplicity, may as well have a mirrored diameter-height cylinder underground as well.

As other have pointed out, the circle must create a 3-dimensional protective area, if it only prevents contact with the surface then fliers could invade with impunity, Devilkins could stilt-walk past the barrier, etc.