5.8x28mm

[GhostKnight]

What do you all think of the 5.8x28mm from FHN? AP rounds that don't overshoot, leadless, 60% the recoil of a 9mm, and both pistol and SMG versions? Especially with all the complaints of the M16 in Iraq for weapon crews and urban warfare?

(Speaking of which, any idea if a P90 semi-auto is available on the civilian market? I may be getting the five nine pistol to try out soon - for hiking in cougar country you know.)

[Shawn Merrow]

(Speaking of which, any idea if a P90 semi-auto is available on the civilian market? I may be getting the five nine pistol to try out soon - for hiking in cougar country you know.)

From what I have read about there are no plans to sale to the civilian market.

[Jefffar]

I've heard the 5.7 mm round has difficulty inflicting serious damage, especially after penetrating armour.

For all its velocity it is ultimately a small and light bullet, so if something reduces that velocity before hitting the target (ie long range, body armour, drywall, a car door, bushes . . .) it won't do much harm. It is also more easily deflected than a slower and heavier bullet like a 9mm or a .45.

[GhostKnight]

Given that even 22s are used for personal protection, I'm still looking at this for my wife. She can use a 9mm but would like something with less recoil. The tumble is good for damage and the inability to go through a bunch of walls is a benefit IMO in an urban environment with a lot of civilians around.

[Shawn Merrow]

(Speaking of which, any idea if a P90 semi-auto is available on the civilian market? I may be getting the five nine pistol to try out soon - for hiking in cougar country you know.)

The people who make Stargate SG-1 did get some but they have been modfied to only fire blanks.

Behind the Scenes - Props

[Jefffar]

Incidently, my thoughts on the 5.7mm vs cougar.

Th 5.7mm has great penetation, but low tissue damage. A cougar is pretty thin. So unless you place your shots carefully (which is hard to do when a cougar is chasing you) you will probably end up with a through and through but not much damage.

For defence from wild animals I'd start with a .40 S&W or a .357 SiG and move up from there. Glock makes nice compact automatics in those calibres, 10 mm and .45 ACP.

My thoughts

[Jefffar]

There are harder hitting pistol rounds than the .45, but nothing I'd bother with for personal defence from anything short of a grizzley bear.

[tsh77769]

The 5.7x28mm has one purpose and one purpose only, to penetrate armor, this it does well. Other than that if F'ing SUCKS!! Only the select fire and the high capacity of the FNP90 helps a bit.

People are more familiar with the 5.56x45mm NATO. So lets talk about that for a second. It is a great round, IF IF IF, it hits the target at 2700 FPS or more, in which case it fragments in the target and does a good job. However, at anyhting significantly less FPS than that and it does little more than a .22 Mag. The 5.56 and the 5.7x28mm are both examples of a SCHV concept, Small Caliber High Velocity. With a small caliber you NEED high velocity, but it you do have it it works fine, even real fine. Problem is, the 5.7x28mm just doesn't have the velocity or the fragmentation and in effect is a glorified .22 Mag with the admitted advantage of significantly greater armor penetration.


In regards to the 5.7x28mm, the HP ammunition and the pistol are both currently available, and 20rd mags should be soon. AP ammo however remains restricted as it is an AP pistol round (AP rifle ammunition is not restricted). The P90 is restricted due to the fact that it is select fire and no new civillian transferable guns can be made after May of 1986. Even were it semi only, it would still be a "Short Barrelled Rifle", having a barrell less than 16" or overall lenght less than 26", and this would require a $200 tax and paper work, finger prints, photos, registration, etc. Thus limiting the number of willing customes. So, this is NOT realted to an FN policy but issues of law. However, even were it able to reach a cvillian market according to law, FN would likely restrict it from civillian sales by company policy (often as encouraged by the government and is generally an effort by a given company at sucking up in order to increase the likelyhood of scoring government contracts).

For example, their aren't any laws saying a US citizen can't have night vision, or thermal vision but, mostly with the later now days, many companies will not sell to civillians. This is the same with "Law Enforcement Only Ammo" in the case of non-AP pistol rounds. It is just company policy, there is no law against you having it and many people do.

BTW, I am highly trained in firearms combat (including full atuo and small unit tactics) and my friends include licensed arms dealers (machine guns and the works), including a regional FN distributor.

Also, the Desert Ealge sucks as a weapon, it is a fascinating paper weight however. In all the same and then some calibers, the now discontinued but still readily available and supported LAR Grizzly is infinitely superior.

As for the .45 knocking people down, if you mean like in the movies, that is BS, basioc physics, "for each action there is an equal and opposite reaction" says taht if what happened in the movies was real, the shooter woiuld be knocked on his can too. If you mean that the person falls over from incapacitation, they usually fall forward, especially if they are moving towards you when you shoot them

There is SOOOO much BS about guns out there, especially in the media and the news. Unfortunately, the media and the news, for political reasons USUALLY deliberately LIE about guns to make them more scary to peopl in order to bolster stupid political BS. Hollywood does the same.

TSH77769

[tsh77769]

Here is a pic of an LAR Grizzly in .44 Mag. They come in all the DE calibers and then some. The company still exist and still services them but they quit prodcution in order to focus on their .50 BMG rifles.

http://www.theduke.de/images/LARGrizzlynickel.jpg

The LAR is MUCH smaller and lighter. It is recoil operated vs gas operated for the DE (no exposed lead projectiles or it welds itself shut and becomes a paper weight). The grip is much better. The safety is frame mounted and easily accessed. Approximately 70% parts compatability with the standard 1911 (the LAR Grizzly is just a 1911 on steroids).

Also the DE was ripped off in a very unethical manner from the inventor of the Coonan (the original .357 Mag auto pistol). BTW, it looks like the Coonan might go back into production. There are much fewer options for the Coonan vs. the LAR but it is even smaller and lighter yet, very close to a standard 1911 in size.

tsh77769

[Jefffar]

My critique of the DE is its a hunting pistol, not a combat weapon.

If I have the time to take nice, careful shots, and my life isn't on the line, yeah, the DE is my preference.

In a more ad lib situation, those Glocks and SIGs in .357 SIG, .40 S&W or 10 mm would be my choice.

[Jefffar]

Sometimes I wonder why the DE has a magazine, it was built for single shots.

ANd I wouldn't want to try a double tap with a .44.

[BigLEE]

The Desert Eagle was originally designed for silhouette shooting. (Silhouette shooting competions consists of shooting metal animal cutouts.) It was originally chambered in .357 magnum, with the .44 showing up a couple years later.

[tsh77769]

Also the original was smaller, then they made two different sizes, the original and a larger model to accomadate the larger rounds, then they dropped the smaller original model.

Tsh77769

[Mantisking]

Originally posted by tsh77769.
Also the original was smaller, then they made two different sizes, the original and a larger model to accomadate the larger rounds, then they dropped the smaller original model.

Are you talking about the Jericho 941?

[BigLEE]

Originally posted by tsh77769.
Also the original was smaller, then they made two different sizes, the original and a larger model to accomadate the larger rounds, then they dropped the smaller original model.

Are you talking about the Jericho 941?

I don't think so, rather the older Israeli made Mark Is & Mark VIIs were slightly smaller (about .5 inch length & height) than the current US made Mark XIXs. Most of the dimension changes are related to the integral sight rail on the barrel of the Mark XIX.

L.E.E.

[Jefffar]

The jericho went into production after the Desert Eagle, hence the occasional reference to it as the "Baby Eagle"

[tsh77769]

Big LEE, that is exactly what I was talking about, you are exactly right on with me there.

TSH77769

[Eddie T]

ive never heard anything bad about it, and one of my corporals blew an afghani clean in half with one. any pistol that can do that is pretty good item in my book.

What unit were you in?

[Eddie T]

How was he carrying an unauthorized POW in a combat zone then?

[Eddie T]

Ghost Knight, I'm a little late with this but this is something that answers your question pretty good.

Based on the evidence collected after the conclusion of Operation Chavin de Huantar, the Peruvian Special Forces assault on the Japanese ambassador's residence held by the Tupac Amaru Revolutionary Movement (Movimiento Revolucionario Tupac Amaru—MRTA), the Peruvian SF community has quietly shelved their inventory of FN P-90’s.

The forensic evidence collected after the assault indicated poor terminal ballistic performance when compared with the recovered slugs fired by the MP5 and UZI-equipped members of the 140-man joint task force.

Several first-hand accounts of the participating members described a ‘dreadful lack of stopping power’ and the necessity for multiple torso and head shots before having an adequate effect on the targets, views not shared by their MP5 and UZI-equipped comrades.

One of the two SF KIA on the assault team was armed with the P-90 and the after-action report indicated that the casualty had successfully engaged his killer with several torso hits before being fatally wounded by his MRTA target. It was probably this report, more than anything else that led to the decision to shelve the weapon. The consensus view of the findings indicating that the SF community as a whole lacked confidence in the weapon system and failure to remove the weapon from inventory would lead to severe morale problems within the effected units.

[Eddie T]

it was authorized. is there some sort of point youre getting at here?

Yeah, there is. Personally Owned Weapons haven't been authorized for field use in the US military since WWII-ish (maybe Korea, but I'm not as knowledgeable about regs in that era and a few made it to some soldiers in Vietnam, but they weren't supposed to have them...per an Army Lt. Col. who was in Vietnam..uhh, not me, my boss). The only exception is knives in the non-special operations military and that's at the commander's discretion (usually company level). The only personnel allowed to carry POW firearms are special operators, and even then only select units get to carry them, for instance, in the 75th Ranger Regiment we don't get to carry POWs.

Typically special operations units have a selection of government owned weapons (usually indicative of the operational areas they're associated with) that they get to select from when they will be unable to be easily resupplied with US-issue gear or need to maintain a non-U.S. appearance. There are several reasons for this. The most important of which being that non-standard weapons often require non-standard ammunition. Secondarily, they require non-standard parts when something breaks or gets lost. Most importantly from a gun-owner's perspective, there are no methods to get reimbursed for any damage or loss of personal property lost on a mission. So to cover many bases, the military doesn't allowed personally owned weapons to be carried in combat.

To answer your question about a point, yes, I think your corporal lied to you about it, because even IF he did carry a DE into a combat zone, it doesn't have the muzzle energy to cut someone clean in half. A .50 BMG won't even cut someone in half (well, maybe a child, but not an adult), although it will take out big chunks.

I'm not starting a flame war (or trying to), and if you want to start one please PM me with it so we don't waste space here as that's how I'll respond to it, I'm just stating facts.

[GhostKnight]

Ghost Knight, I'm a little late with this but this is something that answers your question pretty good.

Based on the evidence collected after the conclusion of Operation Chavin de Huantar, the Peruvian Special Forces assault on the Japanese ambassador's residence held by the Tupac Amaru Revolutionary Movement (Movimiento Revolucionario Tupac Amaru—MRTA), the Peruvian SF community has quietly shelved their inventory of FN P-90’s.

The forensic evidence collected after the assault indicated poor terminal ballistic performance when compared with the recovered slugs fired by the MP5 and UZI-equipped members of the 140-man joint task force.

Several first-hand accounts of the participating members described a ‘dreadful lack of stopping power’ and the necessity for multiple torso and head shots before having an adequate effect on the targets, views not shared by their MP5 and UZI-equipped comrades.

One of the two SF KIA on the assault team was armed with the P-90 and the after-action report indicated that the casualty had successfully engaged his killer with several torso hits before being fatally wounded by his MRTA target. It was probably this report, more than anything else that led to the decision to shelve the weapon. The consensus view of the findings indicating that the SF community as a whole lacked confidence in the weapon system and failure to remove the weapon from inventory would lead to severe morale problems within the effected units.

Thanks! Better than a 22 (which some people do carry for protection) but I'm back to the old standard - 45.

[GhostKnight]

It's a very sad day when the military can spend $240 million per plane but can't keep up the bills on personal body armor, weapons, or ammo.

[Jefffar]

Hey, my millitary can't do either.

That's when its sad.