How do most people determine attributes?

Ley Line walkers, Juicers, Coalition Troops, Samas, Tolkeen, & The Federation Of Magic. Come together here to discuss all things Rifts®.

Moderators: Immortals, Supreme Beings, Old Ones

User avatar
Library Ogre
Palladium Books® Freelance Writer
Posts: 9831
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2001 1:01 am
Comment: My comments do not necessarily represent the views of Palladium Books.
Location: Texas
Contact:

Re: How do most people determine attributes?

Unread post by Library Ogre »

Fenris2020 wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
MyDumpStatIsMA wrote:
Hotrod wrote:It might be interesting to compare the stats of published un-augmented human N.P.C.s to the kinds of outcomes we get out of dice rolls in the rules as written.


First book I thought of for easy comparisons: Rifts Mercenaries.

Janet Braddock, Human Headhunter: IQ 17; MA 20; ME 18; PS 17; PP 19; PE 15; PB 19; Spd 17. HP 43; SDC 30. SUM TOTAL: 142



Incidentally, with 7 out of her 8 stats being exceptional (the lone exception being just one point shy), Janet Braddock would be a contender for Biggest Cheater in the Megaverse (TM), a Rules Lawyer contest I proposed a while back where the object would be to find the most egregious cases of a writer ignoring the rules of the game whilst creating an NPC.



Her SDC seems a bit low, considering what she should have as Man-at-Arms OCC + Physical Skills.


Her dice were all worn out after rolling her attributes.
-overproduced by Martin Hannett

When I see someone "fisking" these days my first inclination is to think "That person doesn't have much to say, and says it in volume." -John Scalzi
Happiness is a long block list.
If you don't want to be vilified, don't act like a villain.
The Megaverse runs on vibes.
All Palladium Articles
Mutant Dawn for Savage Worlds!
User avatar
Fenris2020
Adventurer
Posts: 534
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:25 pm
Comment: Go woke, go broke.

Re: How do most people determine attributes?

Unread post by Fenris2020 »

Library Ogre wrote:
Fenris2020 wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
MyDumpStatIsMA wrote:
Hotrod wrote:It might be interesting to compare the stats of published un-augmented human N.P.C.s to the kinds of outcomes we get out of dice rolls in the rules as written.


First book I thought of for easy comparisons: Rifts Mercenaries.

Janet Braddock, Human Headhunter: IQ 17; MA 20; ME 18; PS 17; PP 19; PE 15; PB 19; Spd 17. HP 43; SDC 30. SUM TOTAL: 142



Incidentally, with 7 out of her 8 stats being exceptional (the lone exception being just one point shy), Janet Braddock would be a contender for Biggest Cheater in the Megaverse (TM), a Rules Lawyer contest I proposed a while back where the object would be to find the most egregious cases of a writer ignoring the rules of the game whilst creating an NPC.



Her SDC seems a bit low, considering what she should have as Man-at-Arms OCC + Physical Skills.


Her dice were all worn out after rolling her attributes.



Considering her Physical Skill, I doubt they were all "rolled".
Looking at it again, since she has Running and Athletics, her Speed is a bit low as well.
You are a truly worthy foe! I shall howl a dirge in your honour and eat your heart with pride!
User avatar
MyDumpStatIsMA
Explorer
Posts: 152
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2022 9:57 pm

Re: How do most people determine attributes?

Unread post by MyDumpStatIsMA »

Hotrod wrote:
MyDumpStatIsMA wrote:
Hotrod wrote:It might be interesting to compare the stats of published un-augmented human N.P.C.s to the kinds of outcomes we get out of dice rolls in the rules as written.


First book I thought of for easy comparisons: Rifts Mercenaries.

Janet Braddock, Human Headhunter: IQ 17; MA 20; ME 18; PS 17; PP 19; PE 15; PB 19; Spd 17. HP 43; SDC 30. SUM TOTAL: 142



Incidentally, with 7 out of her 8 stats being exceptional (the lone exception being just one point shy), Janet Braddock would be a contender for Biggest Cheater in the Megaverse (TM), a Rules Lawyer contest I proposed a while back where the object would be to find the most egregious cases of a writer ignoring the rules of the game whilst creating an NPC.


While 142 is borderline ridiculous for a non-augmented human, none of those bonuses are going to be really game breaking. The highest bonus, MA, is purely social.

What I'm getting at, is this: a character with all 10s in attributes except for a PP of, say, 26, is ultimately going to be more overpowered in regular combat (or 'social combat' if a mental attribute). I feel like one stat that gives a +6 or whatever is more ruinous to balance than multiple stats that confer a +1 and +2. A really high PE makes you almost immune to magic (especially if you're using an OCC that gives resistance to magic above and beyond attribute bonuses), just as a high ME plus the right OCC will make you all but invincible to most psionics.

Anyway, I reviewed my finished character sheets (not necessarily played yet, but these are all characters I'd like to play, at least), and took the following sample. All characters are human unless specified:

102 Spetsnaz Mage; 123 Robot Pilot; 124 Dewtani Mystic; 114 Elf Lord Magus; 106 Psi-Druid; 119 Barmaid; 145 Mystic Warrior; 147 Crazy; 131 Mask Shaman; 124 Elf Mystic.

All the above have multiple (minimum 3) physical skills, except for the Spetsnaz Mage and the Lord Magus. In all cases the elves are simple Palladium SDC elves, not Asgardian or whatever.

I'm including the Crazy because that was done with legitimate one-roll-per-attribute rolls. I somehow severely botched all speed-related rolls, which is how a Spirit West Mystic Warrior can approximate a Crazy. Also, Spirit West OCCs get animal totems which buff attributes.

The Robot Pilot was just the opposite of the Crazy in terms of speed rolls; I legitimately one-rolled 14 and 6 extra speed from Running and Athletics.

In the case of the Mask Shaman, I re-rolled PE until it was 19 or 20, at which point I took 4 physical skills that boosted PE; this was all necessary to reach a point where I can create masks that hold 8 spells each.

I also re-rolled the Dewtani's PP until I could get it to 16, as I wanted a bonus for those few thrown spells that benefit from targeting and PP.

The Barmaid, laughable as that OCC sounds, is geared towards being an assassin. I mean, I gave her Assassin HtoH and would play her as the Barmaid bit being more a cover than reality. I mainly picked the OCC for the +2 initiative bonus, which is on par with a lot of high-end combat OCCs (edit: my Barmaid can actually outdraw my Crazy, which I find both hilarious and rather sad).
User avatar
ShadowLogan
Palladin
Posts: 7481
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Location: WI

Re: How do most people determine attributes?

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Hotrod wrote:Incidentally, with 7 out of her 8 stats being exceptional (the lone exception being just one point shy), Janet Braddock would be a contender for Biggest Cheater in the Megaverse (TM), a Rules Lawyer contest I proposed a while back where the object would be to find the most egregious cases of a writer ignoring the rules of the game whilst creating an NPC.

With an attribute set of [IQ 17; MA 20; ME 18; PS 17; PP 19; PE 15; PB 19; Spd 17] I'm not sure I agree that the NPC is "cheating" per say. Now ignoring attribute bonuses from skills (and not all NPC have fully fleshed out skills list AND she might be one of those) or augmentations (HH do have the option to get cybernetics/bionics) or class/race, and considering this is RMB-era NPC which means it doesn't have the +1d6 exploding die if the +1d6 bonus die for 16+ rolls a 6. I certainly agree that this is improbable, but not impossible to get die scores like that.

IINM under the RMB-era attribute system (and assuming no attribute bonuses which could push any of them higher) and (assuming) I wrote a program script correctly there are 236 dice combinations for 3d6+1d6 on a 16+ (combinations count order variations like 6/3/6 as not the same as 3/6/6 or 6/6/3 even though they all total 15 though from a practical standpoint...):
-10x die combinations that yield a 15 (NPC has x1)
-6x die combinations that yield a 17 (NPC has x3)
-3x die combinations that yield a 18 (NPC has x1)
-4x die combinations that yield a 19 (NPC has x2)
-4x die combinations that yield a 20 (NPC has x1)

Spoiler:
Full spread for dice combinations (as defined above) for RMB-era 3d6+1d6 on 16+ if I did the script properly
DICE TOTAL: COUNT
3:1
4:3
5:6
6:10
7:15
8:21
9:25
10:27
11:27
12:25
13:21
14:15
15:10
17:6
18:3
19:4
20:4
21:4
22:4
23:4
24:1


IINM, and I could be wrong, but these combination counts don't change under the RUE era 3d6+1d6 for 16+ w/+1d6 on roll of 6 for bonus die since the exploding die doesn't kick in until a total score of 22 (w/bonus die). What will change is the total number of combinations (which is 257 IINM as I defined previously)
User avatar
Nekira Sudacne
Monk
Posts: 15501
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2003 7:22 pm
Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
Location: 2nd Degree Black Belt of Post Fu
Contact:

Re: How do most people determine attributes?

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

MyDumpStatIsMA wrote:
Hotrod wrote:It might be interesting to compare the stats of published un-augmented human N.P.C.s to the kinds of outcomes we get out of dice rolls in the rules as written.


First book I thought of for easy comparisons: Rifts Mercenaries.

Lightdancer, Elf Ley Line Walker: IQ 19; MA 9; ME 14; PS 14; PP 18; PE 15; PB 19; Spd 10. 38 HP, 21 SDC.

General Smith, Human Parapsychologist: IQ 17; MA 15; ME 19; PS 13; PP 17; PE 18; PB 10; Spd 15. 43 HP, 26 SDC.

Zippo, mutant Human from Heroes and Villains (converted into Rifts): IQ 11; MA 12; ME 15; PS 13; PP 9; PE 18; PB 11; Spd 12. 80-220 MDC.

Paul Konrad, Human Glitter Boy Pilot: IQ 12; MA 16; ME 15; PS 21; PP 23; PE 18; PB 10; Spd 18. HP 47, SDC 66.

Damian Crow, Human Special Forces Soldier: IQ 18; MA 20; ME 15; PS 17; PP 21; PE 15; PB 16; Spd 27. 52 HP, 56 SDC.

Wilhelm Kratz, Human Special Forces Soldier: IQ 13; MA 9; ME 17; PS 23; PP 22; PE 24; PB 7; Spd 26. HP 59, SDC 74.

Janet Braddock, Human Headhunter: IQ 17; MA 20; ME 18; PS 17; PP 19; PE 15; PB 19; Spd 17. HP 43; SDC 30.

Luigi Grimaldi, Human Safecracker/Demolitions expert: IQ 23; MA 10; ME 12; PS 9; PP 14; PE 13; PB 8; Spd 9. HP 35, SDC 13.

~~~~~~~~

This is a fairly small sample, but you can see an aversion to penalty attributes. They flirt with a few, but only one in this entire group has a PB of 7.


Attribute penalties did not exist when Rifts Mercenaries was written. The penalties were only introduced in Rifts Ultimate Edition in 2005. Rifts Mercenaries was written in 1994.

It is clear most NPCs do not seem to follow the 3d6 curve though :D
Sometimes, you're like a beacon of light in the darkness, giving me some hope for humankind. ~ Killer Cyborg

You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast. ~ Dark Brandon
Post Reply

Return to “Rifts®”