Where is Mystic Australia?

[Zenviscaype]

This manuscript was promised back in 1999. What has been the hold up? If there was a lack of material, it could of been posted in the Rifter magazine. I love Rifts World Book 19: Australia. Why did it stop there? We have Mystic Russia and China. When will be the release date?

[Mack]

Presumably, WB19 didn’t sell well enough.

[The Beast]

Where is Mystic Australia?

It's on the same shelf as Mechanoid Space, Land of the Damned 3, the two follow up Mysteries of Magic books, the two BTS books, Japan 2, The Nursery, Darklings, and Rifts Dimension Book 9.

[Warshield73]

Where is Mystic Australia?

It's on the same shelf as Mechanoid Space, Land of the Damned 3, the two follow up Mysteries of Magic books, the two BTS books, Japan 2, The Nursery, Darklings, and Rifts Dimension Book 9.

Darklings, I forgot about that one. What was that supposed to be?

[Axelmania]

Where is Mystic Australia?

Was that "Australia Two" or "Australia Three"? I remember being promised both.

It's on the same shelf as Mechanoid Space, Land of the Damned 3, the two follow up Mysteries of Magic books, the two BTS books, Japan 2, The Nursery, Darklings, and Rifts Dimension Book 9.

Is there room on that shelf for Africa Two, Antarctica, China Three, Delta Blues, Lazlo One, Lazlo Two, Scotland, The Dark Woods, The Grand Paladins and Zulu Nation?

[The Beast]

Where is Mystic Australia?

It's on the same shelf as Mechanoid Space, Land of the Damned 3, the two follow up Mysteries of Magic books, the two BTS books, Japan 2, The Nursery, Darklings, and Rifts Dimension Book 9.

Darklings, I forgot about that one. What was that supposed to be?

According to AitNW it was to be (I'm guessing) an adventure sourcebook for 1st Ed BTS and at least one of the adventures would see the star dragon from AitNW make a return appearance in it.

[CyCo]

The entire Rifts Manuscript was so big, it was to be split up into three books, with one focusing on the magical side of the Rifts Australia setting, and the third one being practically a dimension book on the Dreamtime.

There was some noise a couple of years ago that a different author was going to work on additional books for Australia, but whether they were to use some of BCLs material, or make something new up, I'm not totally sure.

[DhAkael]

Same place half the line up for NightSPAWN, Attorian Empire, Mechanoid space and the Lazlo source/world book wound up.

[Axelmania]

the Lazlo source/world book wound up.

They'll want to make us forget it was plural, we can't let them

[kaid]

The entire Rifts Manuscript was so big, it was to be split up into three books, with one focusing on the magical side of the Rifts Australia setting, and the third one being practically a dimension book on the Dreamtime.

There was some noise a couple of years ago that a different author was going to work on additional books for Australia, but whether they were to use some of BCLs material, or make something new up, I'm not totally sure.

It would have been nice if they did at least a mystic australia tie it in to the lemuria south seas info and call it good enough. I actually did like the rifts australia setting but really hard to do much with it when a giant chunk of what it should have been never happened.

[Zenviscaype]

Where is Mystic Australia?

It's on the same shelf as Mechanoid Space, Land of the Damned 3, the two follow up Mysteries of Magic books, the two BTS books, Japan 2, The Nursery, Darklings, and Rifts Dimension Book 9.

Augh! Those are some other books I wanted to see. You forgot TMNT and More Strangeness.

[glitterboy2098]

This manuscript was promised back in 1999. What has been the hold up? If there was a lack of material, it could of been posted in the Rifter magazine. I love Rifts World Book 19: Australia. Why did it stop there? We have Mystic Russia and China. When will be the release date?

the original rifts:australia author had issues with way PB edited the first book. his 2nd work was substandard and because of the first part i mentioned he refused to edit his manuscript to address the issues. this led to a falling out and cancellation of the books. PB has (or at least had) material cut from the first book but it was almost entirely stuff for the tech-cities.

[jaymz]

Where is Mystic Australia?

It's on the same shelf as Mechanoid Space, Land of the Damned 3, the two follow up Mysteries of Magic books, the two BTS books, Japan 2, The Nursery, Darklings, and Rifts Dimension Book 9.

Augh! Those are some other books I wanted to see. You forgot TMNT and More Strangeness.

Can't make something you dont own a license for.

[Pepsi Jedi]

This manuscript was promised back in 1999. What has been the hold up? If there was a lack of material, it could of been posted in the Rifter magazine. I love Rifts World Book 19: Australia. Why did it stop there? We have Mystic Russia and China. When will be the release date?

the original rifts:australia author had issues with way PB edited the first book. his 2nd work was substandard and because of the first part i mentioned he refused to edit his manuscript to address the issues. this led to a falling out and cancellation of the books. PB has (or at least had) material cut from the first book but it was almost entirely stuff for the tech-cities.

The above sentences are true but don't actually tell the story.

The Author did have issues with Palladium

The second work was substandard due to those issues.

He refused to edit his manuscript to address the issues

It lead to a falling out and cancellation of the books.

What's not being said, is that the issues that were had were GROSS AND FLAGRANT RACISM Against the Aboriginal people of Australia. So bad that even Palladium which.... *Wince* has some what of a history of being...... casually insensitive and at times down right insulting to cultures and religions, even stepped back. Kevin was like "WHOOOOOOA there I can't print this. It's crazy racist" and the author, instead of changing it, doubled down on the racism, and refused to change it.

Thus... he 'had issues" with palladium"

The second work was substandard due to those issues (Flagrant and extreme racism)

he refused to edit his manuscript to address those issues (Refused to take out the racism)

Which lead to a falling out and the books couldn't be published, and Palladium turned away swiftly and just let them fall off the radar.

[Axelmania]

the issues that were had were GROSS AND FLAGRANT RACISM Against the Aboriginal people of Australia. So bad that even Palladium which.... *Wince* has some what of a history of being...... casually insensitive and at times down right insulting to cultures and religions, even stepped back. Kevin was like "WHOOOOOOA there I can't print this. It's crazy racist" and the author, instead of changing it, doubled down on the racism, and refused to change it.

Thus... he 'had issues" with palladium"

The second work was substandard due to those issues (Flagrant and extreme racism)

he refused to edit his manuscript to address those issues (Refused to take out the racism)

Which lead to a falling out and the books couldn't be published, and Palladium turned away swiftly and just let them fall off the radar.

Are we talking about Ben Lucas? Do you know if legally he'd be able to release the manuscript for free or if Palladium basically owns the rights to keep it out of print? Very curious what he wrote. I really enjoyed the TV series "Cleverman" and would love to see pretty much anything related to it.

Even if whatever he wrote wasn't an accurate representation of the culture, couldn't you spin it like an "alternate reality" dimension book? Like in an infinite megaverse there must exist a version of reality where every silly stereotype is true.

One interesting idea might be to do a "Mutants in Orbit" style sourcebook or both ATB/Rifts since both games already have Australia-based sourcebooks. That would work well bor Britain (WB3/MIA) and China (MC/RC) and Japan (N&SS/WB8) too.

[Pepsi Jedi]

the issues that were had were GROSS AND FLAGRANT RACISM Against the Aboriginal people of Australia. So bad that even Palladium which.... *Wince* has some what of a history of being...... casually insensitive and at times down right insulting to cultures and religions, even stepped back. Kevin was like "WHOOOOOOA there I can't print this. It's crazy racist" and the author, instead of changing it, doubled down on the racism, and refused to change it.

Thus... he 'had issues" with palladium"

The second work was substandard due to those issues (Flagrant and extreme racism)

he refused to edit his manuscript to address those issues (Refused to take out the racism)

Which lead to a falling out and the books couldn't be published, and Palladium turned away swiftly and just let them fall off the radar.

Are we talking about Ben Lucas? Do you know if legally he'd be able to release the manuscript for free or if Palladium basically owns the rights to keep it out of print? Very curious what he wrote. I really enjoyed the TV series "Cleverman" and would love to see pretty much anything related to it.

Even if whatever he wrote wasn't an accurate representation of the culture, couldn't you spin it like an "alternate reality" dimension book? Like in an infinite megaverse there must exist a version of reality where every silly stereotype is true.

One interesting idea might be to do a "Mutants in Orbit" style sourcebook or both ATB/Rifts since both games already have Australia-based sourcebooks. That would work well bor Britain (WB3/MIA) and China (MC/RC) and Japan (N&SS/WB8) too.

I didn't read it, but trying to spin a horribly racist book as 'fiction because it's a game" is a good way to get totally screwed with your pants on in the media and by your customers. Why on earth would you even RISK such a thing??

Seriously step back and think about what you just said "Oh it's horribly racist to the point that a company that's put out some VERY insulting stuff pointed at other cultures and religions even stepped back and said "HELL NO, TOO RACIST!!, you gotta change this!" And the Author that wrote it said "No" and doubled down.... and you're like "hey. Publish it anyway as alt reality"

Dude... Have you met... you know.... People?? How do you think that's going to be taken?

You want something that was literally turned down and two books canceled due to how horrible it was... just gone ahead and published anyway, "Oh just slap "Alt reality" on it?

Seriously step back and think of what you're proposing. Think about how it could hurt people. Think about how it could hurt a company (Palladium) Already on the ropes due to customers being furious at them right now over the RTT thing.

Why would you even propose such a thing?

There's plenty of racist stuff on the internet if you want it. I don't need it flowing forth from my RPG company.

Kevin/Palladium makes questionable business decisions quite often.

THIS ONE... was spot on. Kevin did the right thing.

(And that's with out even touching how bad Rifts: Australia 1 was. and I loooove Australia, and even got into Role playing to start with, by picking up Mutants Down Under over 3 decades ago.)

[Axelmania]

*shrug* there might be some pagans out there offended by Hera stealing Freya's brisingamen, of course~800,000 aboriginals is a bigger number than ~20,000 who practise Heathenism but the latter's still something to consider.

I never said it was horribly racist Pepsi, as like you I have not read the manuscript. I won't be calling it racist at all unless I get a better idea of the basis of why. P presumably something racist would be something inaccurate and misrepresentative about aussie aboriginee culture. You could simply tweak that as a "the culture was fine and good but then an alien intelligence came along after the coming of the rifts".

I think that's how Pantheons interpreted some of the more brutal aspects of certain cultures, they said some supernatural imposter did it while the god had to leave due to low PPE levels.

When I think about what Cleverman did... I don't know if I should go into much detail without potentially spoiling seasons 1+2, but it has some pretty brutal moments that could potentially offend those who honor the Hairypeople (Yowies/Yahoos) might be offended by the stuff done to them in that show, but I think it would serve a net benefit of attracting interest in a culture.

[Pepsi Jedi]

You're 100% Missing the point.

The books were turned down due to horrible racist protrals of the Aboriginal people. Simply going "Wink wink, nod nod, ""Alt reality"" Wink. Snicker" Doesn't make it less racist. It just would mean that palladium was willing to publish a racist's racist writings with a wink and a nod.

As I said above. Palladium routinely makes business decisions that makes me stutter trying to comprehend them.

In this case, refusing to publish a writers racist work, is one that I understand (From a business stand point, and how it could hurt a company and drive AWAY Customers.) and approve of, on a human level. Kevin totally did the right thing here, cut ties and let the books fall off the radar.

Think about what you're advocating here Axel. It's not painting you in an especially good light.

[glitterboy2098]

i didn't include that part because i was never able to confirm it. kevin talked about the falling out on one of the gateway to the megaverse podcast i helped with, but hadn't mentioned that particular aspect, just that the author included material that wasn't up to PB's standards and refused to fix it.

given how (obviously unthinkingly) racist rifts africa and Spirit west turned out, if mystic australia was dropped because of racism it must have been incredibly bad.

[Pepsi Jedi]

i didn't include that part because i was never able to confirm it. kevin talked about the falling out on one of the gateway to the megaverse podcast i helped with, but hadn't mentioned that particular aspect, just that the author included material that wasn't up to PB's standards and refused to fix it.

given how (obviously unthinkingly) racist rifts africa and Spirit west turned out, if mystic australia was dropped because of racism it must have been incredibly bad.

And THAT was the point I kinda gently tried to make above. Palladium has put out some pretty "Yikes" stuff that at best is very Culturally insensitive. So when these (Aussie 2, 3) Were dropped it had to be hella bad.

[Axelmania]

You're 100% Missing the point.

The books were turned down due to horrible racist protrals of the Aboriginal people. Simply going "Wink wink, nod nod, ""Alt reality"" Wink. Snicker" Doesn't make it less racist. It just would mean that palladium was willing to publish a racist's racist writings with a wink and a nod.

I suppose what I'm missing is where this conception comes from if you say you hadn't read the manuscript. Were you given some sort of summary of its contents from someone who had?

As I said above. Palladium routinely makes business decisions that makes me stutter trying to comprehend them.

In this case, refusing to publish a writers racist work, is one that I understand (From a business stand point, and how it could hurt a company and drive AWAY Customers.) and approve of, on a human level. Kevin totally did the right thing here, cut ties and let the books fall off the radar.

Think about what you're advocating here Axel. It's not painting you in an especially good light.

I'm firstly hesitant to condemn Lucas' works if I haven't read them, or his motives if I don't know him, which is why I describe "potentially inaccurate" rather than "racist".

Palladium has a history of giving a multi-faceted approach to certain religions/cultures across multiple sourcebooks. To use the Aztecs as an example, you pretty much have the dark gods promoting the human sacrifice, with Quetzalcoatl (both in Pantheons and Nightlands) promoting a less brutal interpretation of the culture.

There are good/bad gods/spirits in Spirit West too, good humans and bad humans.

Would there not also be such an interesting dichotomy in Mystic Australia too? Maybe evil is temporarily in control there because the good guys were beaten down?

Pantheons/SA2 basically had homebrew Mechanoids/Splugorth beating up the gods historically and causing them to abandon worlds/dimensions. This could offend people who follow those gods as much as racism.

Furthermore, if you attribute negative attributes/activity (I have to be vague here since I'm really not sure what it is in the manuscript we're referring to) to interference by supernatural evil, then it really isn't a knock against the people at all, but against their oppressors. Sort of like it isn't racist to have humans become Dark Priests in Wormwood, Priests of Night in Nightlands, worshippers of Styphathal, etc.

i didn't include that part because i was never able to confirm it. kevin talked about the falling out on one of the gateway to the megaverse podcast i helped with, but hadn't mentioned that particular aspect, just that the author included material that wasn't up to PB's standards and refused to fix it.

given how (obviously unthinkingly) racist rifts africa and Spirit west turned out, if mystic australia was dropped because of racism it must have been incredibly bad.

Not necessarily: something equally (or maybe even slightly less) troublesome as Africa/SW might be rejected simply because of the era you're trying to publish it in, more activism in social media, etc.

Palladium has put out some pretty "Yikes" stuff that at best is very Culturally insensitive. So when these (Aussie 2, 3) Were dropped it had to be hella bad.

That, or repercussions to the existing books (which are already out there, so they can't easily pull them back) might simply make them more conservative in what they publish going forward.

The early/late 90s was years aware from whatever the potential slated publication date was for Australia 2... not sure exactly when that was, 2005, 2010, 2015? I'm not sure when the initial manuscript was submitted and how long it got talked about.

Did KS maybe give examples of what was in the books during this podcast?

"material that wasn't up to PB's standards " as GB2098 summarizes it doesn't necessarily mean racist (KS did reject the initial Psyscape, for example, but that could be for reasons besides racism) so I'm trying to understand where the idea it had to do with representation of the aboriginees comes from.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Yes we have been told repeatedly this was the reason. It's come out more than once.

As for his 'motives'? That's absurd on the face of it. One's motives for being Racist don't matter. Racisim by it's nature is stupid on the face of it. One doesn't get to justify their hatred and bigotry. You've stated multiple times you wanted to read it, -after- you were told it was racist. When pointed out that not caring that something is racist and still wanting it makes you look bad, you're trying to side step and say "Well maybe it's not as bad as all that"

This wasn't a multifaceted approach to supernatural beings/gods.

This was racism aimed at the aboriginal people.

If you think the guy got a bad shake, email him. It's been literal decades. If he still has the work, he might toss you a copy.

But I for one have no wish to see it. As pointed out Palladium ---has--- gotten a lot of push back on the cultural insensitivity with which they've approached some religions and people. For them to go 'past' that, and flat out refuse to publish two books, due to problems of this nature, does indeed tell you how bad they must have been.

You're trying to go "Oh 2019 is a different time than 1999" But the books wern't slated for 2019. They were slated for 2000. They were too bad for -that time-. More over if they were bad THEN then they're still bad NOW.

So no, again, trying to add a wink wink nudge nudge to justify racism isn't going to fly. Shouldn't fly then (Didn't) and won't fly now.

To answer your question directly. No Kevin didn't give public examples. Likely so he wouldn't end up in court. Palladium as a company and kevin as an individual are very litigious. Back in the day lawyers sent out letters to websites to shut them down. Kevin has taken more than one company/individual to court, etc. And they -fear- that same litigious nature, as evidenced here on the official forums and their rather overzealous to the point of absurdity 'no conversion's policy. (Not converting anything. It's just silly). So AGAIN... while I'm the first one to point and shout when I think Kevin has made a bad business decision. I do not think -this- is one of them. Where he to talk about it at the time it could have ended up in court for slander. or breech of contract in some manner as they had entered contract for 3 books (Which is likely why someone 'else' didn't write the books.). While the material was unpublishable, who wants to pay lawyers to 'prove' it in court when you can take the Politically Correct route and just say that it was 'not up to our standards' to the public, while blackballing the guy and getting the heck away from him behind closed doors. So I can't blame him for not plastering it all over the place. Rifts Austrailia is still in the line up and it 'is' written by the guy. If it got out, they'd have to pull it and destroy stock, and face the reprecussions for publishing the guy's first work anyway.

Myself, and others got the heads up on the reasoning through trusted channels, independent of one another. No I've not read it myself. It's likely been put through a shredder, but those people that stated it, were in positions to know, and were trusted at least far enough to be believed when it came out (Literal decades ago).

This topic comes up every 6 months to a year here on the official forums. It's not new.

Though I will say your ardent defense and desire to read the work after being explained why it was disavowed, is singular. Most people hear the reasoning and go "Oh. Well. GOOD!" You still want it.