Rune sentience

[Veknironth]

Well this may have been asked before, but I didn’t see anything about it. How sentient are rune items? Can they use their powers in their own or does the weilder/user of the item have to command/ask for the power to be used? If the powers can be used by the item without external guidance, how does this work in combat terms? Does the item have its own attacks? How many attacks per round would it have? Could you have a rune dagger in a holster using its ability to cast fireballs while the owner fights with a sword? Can a person have a sword in hand, could that person dodge while the sword throws fireballs? Could the item be left somewhere else and act, like a trap?

-Vek
“I’m sure I’m missing some examples.”

[kiralon]

Page 232 of Dragons and Gods pretty much answers your question which is yes if its a greater rune weapon with free will.

[Reagren Wright]

Page 232 of Dragons and Gods pretty much answers your question which is yes if its a greater rune weapon with free will.

You would be correct. These rune items can even have their own agenda.

[Whiskeyjack]

I tend to use a case by case basis when they come into play. Some can completely control their own powers, others need a linked person to use them at that persons direction. Others can with hold their powers, while some can't. I generally use the power of the life contained to determine how the weapon can act.

[Veknironth]

Well, sure I get all that. I was more curious how people put that into the game from a mechanics point of view. Is the player in control and able to just use the powers as he or she sees fit? Or does the GM control the item and have it act as it wishes? This is obviously just for the Greatest Rune Weapons. How many attack actions per round to they have?

For Greater Rune Weapons, does the PC need to use an attack action to use the power? Like if the item can heal, can the PC just think "Heal me" and it's done without needing to use an action? Could the sword sense the injury and heal on it's own?

-Vek
"I had forgotten the Lesser Rune Weapons have no additional powers!"

[Whiskeyjack]

If controlled by a player, then it takes an action to use an ability. If the weapon is completely sentient, then it uses it's own actions. I just base them off of the players APM.

[kiralon]

I write up a character sheet for them and gives them apm related to their class. The best example was the multiple personality one that could also change shape. Each shape had a specific personality with specific wants, like the short sword form had a thief personality and wouldn't help you unless you found a particular narcotic, mixed ti with oil/wax and polished it into it, but as the thief persona had no kinesis or flight abilities it could only activate it apm per round, so if you had 6 attacks and wanted to use its extended shadow attack, as the thief persona only had 3 actions then it could only be done 3 times a round. The Wizard persona was a staff, and it could fly itself around and attack, but it only got 2 actions a round and that would include casting the spells it could cast.

However because of copy/pasting errors Rune weapons have first ed's limited telepathy, which is sort of mentioned under telepathy saying it can be used for 2 way communication within 140ft between 2 psionicists but can only be used for sending one way messages, So if you aint psionic you aren't talking to the sword.

But the weapon is intelligent and if it likes you and sees someone stick a sword in you it can heal you of its own volition, having free will means they are independent of you and have their own stats.

[Library Ogre]

I allow rune weapons some limited independence... they can use powers within their own range of sense without being told to, but requesting a power from them requires an action (so, the rune sword Bhan-dayd can choose to heal you on its own, but asking it to heal you requires an action... and it might say no.).

[SolCannibal]

Question - are there some guidelines, method or somesuch "guesstimate" the might or powers of a supernatural being "liberated"
from its imprisonment (voluntary or not) as a Rune Weapon? Or is it wholy a "make up as you go along" thing?

[Whiskeyjack]

There is no canon way for a being to escape from a rune weapon. Their body is destroyed and their life force captured. There are not even many ways to destroy rune weapons.

[SolCannibal]

There is no canon way for a being to escape from a rune weapon. Their body is destroyed and their life force captured. There are not even many ways to destroy rune weapons.

Really?

Rune magic steals a creature's life essence and soul, sometimes the physical body as well, and imprisons it in a dimensional vortex within the enchanted object/weapon. The life force empowers the object like a living battery. Ironically, it is that very life force which makes the item indestructible and provides it with much of its power. Within this dimensional prison the life force requires no means of nourishment or water. Thankfully, time is greatly distorted. A thousand years may seem like only a few days.

Considering all rune weapons are described as indestructible, my idea of "liberating" an imprisoned being obviously called for something a little more involved/convoluted than just breaking it, just so you know.

[Whiskeyjack]

According to the creation description in Atlantis, the life essence is drawn into the weapon, and the physical body can be consumed as well.
If the body remains, the thousand or hundreds of thousands of years since its creation would take care of the physical body.

I was just stating that there are only a couple of known ways to destroy a rune weapon. Ways to remove the being trapped within are likely even more rare, and there is no published way to do it AFAIK.

If a weapon is destroyed there isn't anything written as to what happens to the essence either. It may live on as an energy being, it could cease to exist, or move onto another plane of existence/afterlife.

It's quite likely that during the time of the old ones there were ways to remove the life force. Maybe they started as a simple means to contain those they wished to torment. They make a great form of punishment since the being is in control of a mortal.

[SolCannibal]

According to the creation description in Atlantis, the life essence is drawn into the weapon, and the physical body can be consumed as well.

"consumed" is a not ideal word to describe it, imho. It can bring to mind an idea of the bodies dissolution or digestion, what runs to what the citation actually states, that it is stolen and imprisoned in a dimensional vortex within the enchanted object/weapon. At least in cases where it is not discarded, that is.

If the body remains, the thousand or hundreds of thousands of years since its creation would take care of the physical body.

While it may appear to be so, the previous citation states a few things that may may actually run counter to that line of reasoning.

"The life force empowers the object like a living battery." - read, if the life force is snuffed out, what would be a natural consequence of death of the body, that battery would be (most probably) gone and the rune weapon rendered inoperant, a most undesirable prospect for those who took the effort to crafting it, no? Specially considering that the fact "Within this dimensional prison the life force requires no means of nourishment or water. Thankfully, time is greatly distorted. A thousand years may seem like only a few days." seems like something made exactly to account/avoid the possiblity of such deterioration.

Another thing to consider (according to WB2, pg. 127) is the fact mortal practitioners of magic who have attained great mastery over magic (high levels of experience; 10th or greater) are suitable only for lesser rune weapons. To create the most powerful rune weapons, greater supernatural beings, including gods, godlings, ancient dragons, spirits of light, greater elementals, greater demons and demon lords, all beings for whom the passage of time (or the idea of a divide between body & life force) would be nearly irrelevant, are needed.

I was just stating that there are only a couple of known ways to destroy a rune weapon. Ways to remove the being trapped within are likely even more rare, and there is no published way to do it AFAIK.

If a weapon is destroyed there isn't anything written as to what happens to the essence either. It may live on as an energy being, it could cease to exist, or move onto another plane of existence/afterlife.

Obviously - if there was a clear book statement on either people would just cite it instead of debating options or making rulings for their own games, no?

It's quite likely that during the time of the old ones there were ways to remove the life force. Maybe they started as a simple means to contain those they wished to torment. They make a great form of punishment since the being is in control of a mortal.

Are the Old Ones directly related in any way to the creation of Rune Weapons in any of the books? Because most references i can remember are about the Dwarves or Elves, so not seeing much of a reason to bring them up on the subject.

PS: completely unrelated subject - the grey jay, bottle jack, or the Bridgeburner sergeant from Malazan?

[Whiskeyjack]

"consumed" is a not ideal word to describe it, imho. It can bring to mind an idea of the bodies dissolution or digestion, what runs to what the citation actually states, that it is stolen and imprisoned in a dimensional vortex within the enchanted object/weapon. At least in cases where it is not discarded, that is.

I'm not going to argue over which word best describes it. It's in the weapon, use a thesaurus for your favourite synonym and run with it.

If the body remains, the thousand or hundreds of thousands of years since its creation would take care of the physical body.

While it may appear to be so, the previous citation states a few things that may may actually run counter to that line of reasoning.

"The life force empowers the object like a living battery." - read, if the life force is snuffed out, what would be a natural consequence of death of the body, that battery would be (most probably) gone and the rune weapon rendered inoperant, a most undesirable prospect for those who took the effort to crafting it, no? Specially considering that the fact "Within this dimensional prison the life force requires no means of nourishment or water. Thankfully, time is greatly distorted. A thousand years may seem like only a few days." seems like something made exactly to account/avoid the possiblity of such deterioration.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you suggesting that as long as the life force is imprisoned, the body will remain? I wouldn't play it that way personally. Generally, in fantasy settings, where the afterlife and gods are real things, the life force/soul of a person can continue on after the body itself is destroyed.

Obviously - if there was a clear book statement on either people would just cite it instead of debating options or making rulings for their own games, no?

If that was the case, it wouldn't be in a Palladium book. There are NO sources to site for concrete rulings and clarifications here.

Are the Old Ones directly related in any way to the creation of Rune Weapons in any of the books? Because most references i can remember are about the Dwarves or Elves, so not seeing much of a reason to bring them up on the subject.

WB2 pg 127. Legends of the Palladium World suggest that the dreaded Old Ones...were the ones who originally invented rune magic. I'm pretty sure it's mentioned in several Palladium Fantasy books as well, but I'd have to search.

PS: completely unrelated subject - the grey jay, bottle jack, or the Bridgeburner sergeant from Malazan?

The bird. One of the icons of the Great Northern Wilderness where I live. Although the Bridgeburner was cool. Still haven't finished that series.

[SolCannibal]

If the body remains, the thousand or hundreds of thousands of years since its creation would take care of the physical body.

While it may appear to be so, the previous citation states a few things that may may actually run counter to that line of reasoning.

"The life force empowers the object like a living battery." - read, if the life force is snuffed out, what would be a natural consequence of death of the body, that battery would be (most probably) gone and the rune weapon rendered inoperant, a most undesirable prospect for those who took the effort to crafting it, no? Specially considering that the fact "Within this dimensional prison the life force requires no means of nourishment or water. Thankfully, time is greatly distorted. A thousand years may seem like only a few days." seems like something made exactly to account/avoid the possiblity of such deterioration.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you suggesting that as long as the life force is imprisoned, the body will remain? I wouldn't play it that way personally. Generally, in fantasy settings, where the afterlife and gods are real things, the life force/soul of a person can continue on after the body itself is destroyed.

Yes, it is very much what i'm suggesting, based both on the text choice of word - "life force" instead of soul, spirit or something along those lines - and the whole thing about matters of nourishment, passage of time and such, that would be completely unnecessary if the person's body could be simply discarded as an empty sack of potatoes. When it comes to fantasy settings i tend to focus in the specifics, because sometimes things can get some very unexpected turns if we come with expectations based on other scenarios, specially with magic and such.

Though, as i said previously, it's kind of a moot point with Greater and Greatest Rune Weapons, as the beings used to make them (gods, godlings, ancient dragons, spirits of light, greater elementals, greater demons and demon lords) are pretty much made of magic or spiritual energies.

Are the Old Ones directly related in any way to the creation of Rune Weapons in any of the books? Because most references i can remember are about the Dwarves or Elves, so not seeing much of a reason to bring them up on the subject.

WB2 pg 127. Legends of the Palladium World suggest that the dreaded Old Ones...were the ones who originally invented rune magic. I'm pretty sure it's mentioned in several Palladium Fantasy books as well, but I'd have to search.

Wow, completely missed this one, probably because it's so far out of left field in relation to most references about Rune Weapons i did remember. That and sometimes people associating everything to the Old One by default and me being a bit leery/tired of that.

Checking PF itself what i did find was "According to some legends, there once existed stone rune weapons used by a minion race of the Old Ones, but none have ever been uncovered, at least over the last 30,000 years! Most scholars believe stone rune weapons are a myth.", what is even better imho, as it leaves things even more unclear - did the Old Ones gift that minion race with such weapons or was it always a thing all their own - but also introduces the idea of stone rune weapons (could it have some relation to Atlantean Stone Masters or maybe something related to the Erta?) as an interesting bonus.

There's also something about Thoth making a number of Rune Weapons, but the guy is a very particular case, so his knowledge of their creation could have everything to do with the Old Ones, or completely nothing at all, so i guess it makes no difference (except for the whole "thousands of Rune Weapons spread through the cosmos" bit, that is).

Anyway thanks for making me re-check up this stuff. I really need to organize some notes about magic in Palladium and how it influences - and veers off - from that in Rifts or other settings some day...

[Whiskeyjack]

Keep in mind that dragons, which are essentially magic made flesh, leave behind a rotting corpse when they die, godlings are usually the offspring of gods and mortals (or exceptional mortals infused with divine power).
Only elementals and maybe the spirits of light might actually be energy beings. No info is ever given on gods, demons etc as to is they are actual physical beings that I can recall. (If you have a reference, please share).

In regards to the life force, the actual wording is "Rune magic steals a creature's life essence and soul, sometimes the physical body as well, and imprisons it in a dimensional vortex within the enchanted object/weapon." So everything they are is removed from the world, with the possible exception of an empty husk of a body.

[dreicunan]

Land of the Damned 2, page 151, Haelor Forge was an Old One facility that manufactured rune weapons.

[SolCannibal]

Keep in mind that dragons, which are essentially magic made flesh, leave behind a rotting corpse when they die, godlings are usually the offspring of gods and mortals (or exceptional mortals infused with divine power).

Yes, when they die. But just leaving the body somewhere possibly won't kill it on itself, specially in the case of dragons, for whom crazy long periods of hibernation are even normal even without accounting for the weirdness of being used as rune weapon's battery.

Only elementals and maybe the spirits of light might actually be energy beings. No info is ever given on gods, demons etc as to is they are actual physical beings that I can recall. (If you have a reference, please share).

The whole "body reforms in some other dimension" thing of a number of those for starters?

But to be clear, my point is not so much "they are made of energy" so much as "with gods, demons, etc the separation between body and life force or spirit might be razor-thin or inapplicable."

Land of the Damned 2, page 151, Haelor Forge was an Old One facility that manufactured rune weapons.

Hmm, pretty good to know. Remember if the Old One themselves, one of their minion races or if left unstated?
Now i'm curious.

[Library Ogre]

IMO, Lesser Rune weapons contain the souls of Mortals or minor supernatural creatures... lesser demons of no great personal ability.

Greater Rune weapons contain the souls of greater demons or other supernatural creatures of great personal ability... dragons and other powerful supernaturals and creatures of magic.

Soul drinking rune weapons contain the souls of greater supernatural creatures of great personal ability... demons and deevils who are powerful enough to grant witch pacts, ancient dragons, minor godlings, etc.

If you destroy the rune weapon, most of the time, that's the end of the creature. Some very powerful true supernaturals (i.e. things whose bodies are not tied to their current plane, like demons and deevils) might, eventually, reform on their home plane after being freed from a rune weapon, but it's a process of millennia... they have to recover from total discorporation, without many of the resources they might have once had... essentially rebuilding themselves out of ambient PPE, with any progress they make subject to disruption.

[Whiskeyjack]

The whole "body reforms in some other dimension" thing of a number of those for starters?

I was hoping for an actual book and page number so I could read up on it.

Hmm, pretty good to know. Remember if the Old One themselves, one of their minion races or if left unstated?
Now i'm curious.

I'm pretty sure it's left unstated. The old ones are referenced as the creators of rune magic in a few places, but there is never a mention that I'm aware of as to if they taught it to minions, or if the knowledge was stolen.

[SolCannibal]

Well, going back on what i was looking for when i came to this thread, some sort of Rune Weapon/Imprisoned Entity guidelines, think i'll just cook up some.

Minimum spell caster level for someone to serve as "host" is 10th, the level of sample common powers to Rune Weapons (Greater, far from ideal, but as lesser get basically nothing, it's what i have to work with, then so be it) Rune Weapons is 6th level, giving me a rough "Rune Weapon manifests 60% of host's power" benchmark.

Well, good for quick & dirty stuff, truth be told, "gods and demon lords" at the time WB2 was written were still somewhat away of the levels they would reach in CB2 and D&G...

[Nekira Sudacne]

I would argue that, sinse something like 70% of Rune Items are said to be cursed, that it's possible for certain cursed rune items to have their own agenda and manipulate their weilder to that end. Although without the freewill trait, this may not be the Rune Items own agenda guiding it, and the entity within may be as much victim of the curse as the unfortunate weilder.

[Razorwing]

I've never liked the idea that Free Will must be a selected power for a Rune Weapon. Just because something is in the rules does not make it a good rule.

My reasoning for thinking this way is simple... if a player decides to use (or not use) the rune weapons power in a way the weapon would (or wouldn't) approve of, the GM can not stop it because the player will (rightfully) point out that the weapon has no free will power and thus has to do as the player says. If a player wielding a Principled Rune Sword decides to kill a defeated and unarmed (possibly helplessly tied up) enemy... the weapon will have to allow it even though doing so goes against its alignment. If that enemy is pleading for mercy and begging to be healed (on the verge of dying from bleeding wounds) and the player decides not to use the weapon's healing powers (even if the weapon is also begging to heal this suffering soul), the weapon can do nothing... not even refuse to heal later on when the player decides he needs it for himself. If the weapon is being used by a race that it hates but has no means to prevent being used by such beings, it must allow itself to be used by such a being. Basically, the weapon has no choice in its own fate... only the fate its user chooses for it.

To me, Rune Weapons are some of the most powerful weapons ever created because they are intelligent and capable of deciding how they are used... even if that means going against the desires of the one using them. This is one of the reasons they try to find a suitable wielder... someone who's personality is compatible with their own. If a Rune Weapon doesn't like a person, it will not let them use their abilities... and may even refuse to bond with them (sometimes violently if they have the means to show their ire). A Rune Weapon is as much a character as the person using it and should be treated as a partner (though some would prefer to be the master), but never as a slave.

One great example is Calabrax from the show Zak Storm... here is a cutlass with the personality of a pirate who is one of the most powerful items in the show, and while he and Zak tend to get along most of the time, there are occasions when they do not and Cal shows his displeasure by refusing to allow Zak to use any of the Eyes of the 7 Seas (like when Zak calls Calabrax a toothpick). Calabrax has even been shown to influence attacks... helping Zak to become a great swordsman and urging Zak not to fight something that Cal fears might be more than even he can handle. In short, they are partners in trying to find their ways home... Zak may wield Calabrax, but Cal is not Zak's slave and doesn't always do what Zak wants when Cal thinks he knows better.

So much potential for role-play and character development (both the player and the rune weapon)is lost when you treat such rare and powerful weapons as little more than a magic weapon that MUST obey a master regardless of their own desires. Remember, there is a Soul trapped within that weapon, which means that it was once a being that had desires, goals and everything else that a PC has... it is not a mindless automaton that only does what it is told. True, some rune weapons have little care beyond what they are now... but almost every named rune weapon in the game (that actually has provided stats) has a very unique personality... from those that hate elves or dwarves and refuse to be used by them (even if there is no way in their descriptions for them to actually enforce such choices).

Then there are those Rune Weapons that have such powerful personalities that they can dominate their wielder... effectively making them the weapon the dominant partner in the relationship. This would be especially common with the more evil aligned weapons, but not exclusive to them (strong personalities can be found with any alignment). This may also be common when the weapon and user are not really "compatable" (very different alignments). A powerful (but evil) rune sword may allow itself to be used by a noble (good) paladin... so long as the paladin does a few "favors" when the paladin is in desperate situations... favors designed to slowly (or overtly) corrupt the paladin's ideals and outlook (causing an eventual alignment change towards something more compatable with the weapon). This may be as subtle as pointing out that sparing an enemy may allow them to kill others (what noble paladin could live with himself if an enemy he spared kept killing afterwards)... and thus killing him now would spare the lives of future victims (even though the enemy is defeated and helpless). Other instances could be far more overt... such as demanding the sacrifice of an innocent to garantee victory in a great battle (even if the weapon has no real means of garanteeing such an outcome).

In conclusion, I feel that Rune Weapons should be treated as NPC allies of the player using them... not a slave to be ordered around, but a partner that the player needs to work with. Players who treat such weapons as mere tools should learn quickly that this is not a one sided bargin that they alone benifit from... but a partnership where both need to be in sync to reap the benifits. If a player refuses to show mercy when using a sword of good alignment, then the sword may choose to chastise the player by refusing to allow its powers to be used until he attones for his actions in some way. A player who hoards the healing powers of the weapon for his exclusive use may find that he no longer can access that power until he uses it on someone who truely needs it other than himself. Even evil weapons will have ways of bending a user's will towards their desires... wither it is a slow corruption of a user's ideals or allowing the user to freely use their power for the shear thrill of wielding it.

Rune Weapons should be free to determine their fate... even if that fate is linked to the one who uses them.

[eliakon]

My thoughts on the issue?
That in most cases the rune weapon is sort of like a 'slave of the sword' or what have you.
It is intelligent, it has its personality and memories... but it is forced to obey (something like a permeant dominion or ensorcel or something similar)
HOWEVER, some weapons are not bound that way. Either because the creator failed to install it, failed at installing it, or chose for their own reasons to not do so.
Thus some rune devices are independent... but most of them are forced to obey their wielder.
THAT said, you can force the device to act in ways it doesn't like... but it will be sullen and can make a pest of itself if no other way by simply using the telepathic link to talk to you non-stop 24/7 (Filibustering at the Epic level)
The better you and your device 'mesh' the more you get out of it. A helpful minor device can be much more useful than a theoretically more potent one... that begrudges its abilities and refuses to help the wielder in any way outside of the narrow bonds of their compulsions.

[Suicycho]

As a GM you can take it upon yourself to invent a way to release the essence in a rune weapon. It was actually a major subplot in my multi-year campaign. The essence itself had figured out a way to do it and was manipulating the players into creating the situation necessary. It was grand, epic stuff.