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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:53 pm
  

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Dungeon Crawler

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In Rifts damage dealing spells generally became MDC effectively increasing their power level 100 times supposedly because of the higher magic levels on Rifts Earth. So why didn't non damage dealing spells get some kind of increase in some of their parameters? I know the usual answer is game balance but that seems like a cop out to me. Anyone have an viable explanations or tried increasing nondamage spells without breaking their game?


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:34 pm
  

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Palladin

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Mlp7029 wrote:
In Rifts damage dealing spells generally became MDC effectively increasing their power level 100 times supposedly because of the higher magic levels on Rifts Earth. So why didn't non damage dealing spells get some kind of increase in some of their parameters? I know the usual answer is game balance but that seems like a cop out to me. Anyone have an viable explanations or tried increasing nondamage spells without breaking their game?

Not really.
It usually ends up with magic getting vastly over powered.
Though a lot of people tend to forget that it is not just the higher magic levels on Rifts earth. It is a combination of higher magic and the universe itself being a Mega-Damage universe (and the universal laws need to support the rule 'magic does MDC' as well).
With out this you can still have high magic, but SDC world, or low magic MDC ones.

So, don't think of it as 'magic becomes 100x more powerful'.
Think of it as "magic is just as 'powerful' it just now has the MDC flag enabled"

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:23 am
  

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eliakon wrote:
Mlp7029 wrote:
In Rifts damage dealing spells generally became MDC effectively increasing their power level 100 times supposedly because of the higher magic levels on Rifts Earth. So why didn't non damage dealing spells get some kind of increase in some of their parameters? I know the usual answer is game balance but that seems like a cop out to me. Anyone have an viable explanations or tried increasing nondamage spells without breaking their game?

Not really.
It usually ends up with magic getting vastly over powered.
Though a lot of people tend to forget that it is not just the higher magic levels on Rifts earth. It is a combination of higher magic and the universe itself being a Mega-Damage universe (and the universal laws need to support the rule 'magic does MDC' as well).
With out this you can still have high magic, but SDC world, or low magic MDC ones.

So, don't think of it as 'magic becomes 100x more powerful'.
Think of it as "magic is just as 'powerful' it just now has the MDC flag enabled"

Good point. Based on that I still think ranges should go up for a lot of the spells to balance them with modern weapons.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:54 pm
  

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Mlp7029 wrote:
Good point. Based on that I still think ranges should go up for a lot of the spells to balance them with modern weapons.


Some later spells in Rifts did that. I chalk it up to it being something that just wasn't considered... range rules in Palladium being pretty perfunctory.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:21 pm
  

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Palladin

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Mlp7029 wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Mlp7029 wrote:
In Rifts damage dealing spells generally became MDC effectively increasing their power level 100 times supposedly because of the higher magic levels on Rifts Earth. So why didn't non damage dealing spells get some kind of increase in some of their parameters? I know the usual answer is game balance but that seems like a cop out to me. Anyone have an viable explanations or tried increasing nondamage spells without breaking their game?

Not really.
It usually ends up with magic getting vastly over powered.
Though a lot of people tend to forget that it is not just the higher magic levels on Rifts earth. It is a combination of higher magic and the universe itself being a Mega-Damage universe (and the universal laws need to support the rule 'magic does MDC' as well).
With out this you can still have high magic, but SDC world, or low magic MDC ones.

So, don't think of it as 'magic becomes 100x more powerful'.
Think of it as "magic is just as 'powerful' it just now has the MDC flag enabled"

Good point. Based on that I still think ranges should go up for a lot of the spells to balance them with modern weapons.

That can be done.
Of course then you need to rewrite pretty much the entire magic section, and the entire psionics section, and most racial abilities, and a lot of tech (sensor ranges for example are puny), and then you have issues of the long range spells now either are pointless (they were expensive and potent because they had the range of modern weapons) or get vastly over powered. And super powers and racial abilities need a rewrite. And then you still have the issue of magic in settings like Heroes Unlimited and Robotech...

I sort of say "meh" and chalk it up to "not everything is as good as everything else at every task"
Magic has a shorter range for its direct damage. So? If your looking to be doing direct damage magic probably isn't your best first stop anyway.
Magic is where you go for all the stuff that technology can't do or does very, very badly.

There is a reason that most magic classes start with a suit of armor and a weapon or two.
Use your modern weapon for that long range damage.
Use your spells for divination, and healing, and invisibility, and mind control, and illusions, and teleportation, and dimensional travel, and summoning, and defense bypass attacks, and damage reductions, and regenerative defenses, and...

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The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:02 pm
  

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Mlp7029 wrote:
In Rifts damage dealing spells generally became MDC effectively increasing their power level 100 times supposedly because of the higher magic levels on Rifts Earth. So why didn't non damage dealing spells get some kind of increase in some of their parameters? I know the usual answer is game balance but that seems like a cop out to me.


Yup.

Quote:
Anyone have an viable explanations or tried increasing nondamage spells without breaking their game?


Nope.

But it'd be interesting!

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:11 am
  

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Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:11 am
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eliakon wrote:
Mlp7029 wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Mlp7029 wrote:
In Rifts damage dealing spells generally became MDC effectively increasing their power level 100 times supposedly because of the higher magic levels on Rifts Earth. So why didn't non damage dealing spells get some kind of increase in some of their parameters? I know the usual answer is game balance but that seems like a cop out to me. Anyone have an viable explanations or tried increasing nondamage spells without breaking their game?

Not really.
It usually ends up with magic getting vastly over powered.
Though a lot of people tend to forget that it is not just the higher magic levels on Rifts earth. It is a combination of higher magic and the universe itself being a Mega-Damage universe (and the universal laws need to support the rule 'magic does MDC' as well).
With out this you can still have high magic, but SDC world, or low magic MDC ones.

So, don't think of it as 'magic becomes 100x more powerful'.
Think of it as "magic is just as 'powerful' it just now has the MDC flag enabled"

Good point. Based on that I still think ranges should go up for a lot of the spells to balance them with modern weapons.

That can be done.
Of course then you need to rewrite pretty much the entire magic section, and the entire psionics section, and most racial abilities, and a lot of tech (sensor ranges for example are puny), and then you have issues of the long range spells now either are pointless (they were expensive and potent because they had the range of modern weapons) or get vastly over powered. And super powers and racial abilities need a rewrite. And then you still have the issue of magic in settings like Heroes Unlimited and Robotech...

I sort of say "meh" and chalk it up to "not everything is as good as everything else at every task"
Magic has a shorter range for its direct damage. So? If your looking to be doing direct damage magic probably isn't your best first stop anyway.
Magic is where you go for all the stuff that technology can't do or does very, very badly.

There is a reason that most magic classes start with a suit of armor and a weapon or two.
Use your modern weapon for that long range damage.
Use your spells for divination, and healing, and invisibility, and mind control, and illusions, and teleportation, and dimensional travel, and summoning, and defense bypass attacks, and damage reductions, and regenerative defenses, and...


Thanks for the thoughts. I agree with most of them. My mage has carried a modified JA-11 since day 1. I took over the campaign I am running because the GM wanted to play for awhile. We are discussing how to balance non-damage spells. We realize the damage was increased to MDC because of the setting but we try to interpret the world based on the the high magic setting. I agree entirely magic is generally not the best choice for doing damage with the exception of a few spells like Annihilate.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 1:48 pm
  

Palladin

Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:11 pm
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annihilate is a terrible spell for dealing damage. it costs a huge amount, it takes several actions to cast, and it can be interrupted. it might deal a lot of damage, but the other aspects of the spell make it pretty bad in a firefight.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:56 pm
  

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Palladin

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Shark_Force wrote:
annihilate is a terrible spell for dealing damage. it costs a huge amount, it takes several actions to cast, and it can be interrupted. it might deal a lot of damage, but the other aspects of the spell make it pretty bad in a firefight.

This is what scrolls were invented for

Though there are a number of other top end damage spells out there. They tend to be in specialty schools or high level off the cuff here are ten:
Havoc
Electromagnetic Attack
Deathbolt
Deathword
Lifedrain
Mindshatter
Soultwist
Meteor
Sub-Particle Acceleration
Fireblast

But mostly I look at the hideously effective combat debuffs and buffs and figure "why am I trying to do DD anyway?"

_________________
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 12:20 pm
  

Palladin

Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:11 pm
Posts: 6863
eliakon wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:
annihilate is a terrible spell for dealing damage. it costs a huge amount, it takes several actions to cast, and it can be interrupted. it might deal a lot of damage, but the other aspects of the spell make it pretty bad in a firefight.

This is what scrolls were invented for

Though there are a number of other top end damage spells out there. They tend to be in specialty schools or high level off the cuff here are ten:
Havoc
Electromagnetic Attack
Deathbolt
Deathword
Lifedrain
Mindshatter
Soultwist
Meteor
Sub-Particle Acceleration
Fireblast

But mostly I look at the hideously effective combat debuffs and buffs and figure "why am I trying to do DD anyway?"


talismans have a faster cast time because you're not casting a spell. when you use a scroll, you're still casting the spell, so you use the rules for casting a spell except where otherwise specified. scrolls can remove the PPE cost, but it still leaves annihilate as being a terrible damage spell, because the situations where you need a damaging spell are also the situations where you're most likely to be interrupted.

anyways, i would add that many of the spells which allow you to make attacks after casting are reasonably good options; getting 2+ rounds of attacks makes them quite efficient in PPE comparatively, the damage is often at least respectable, and because you don't need to cast the spell every time you fire a projectile, you get to attack just as often as if you used a gun.

i am also quite partial to spells that deal SDC damage through armour, such as mental blast (i think that's what it's called).

but in any event, most of the time spells are simply not a great choice for dealing damage. they're generally not that good at it (for the cost of learning meteor, you could buy a lot of short-range missiles with better range and damage for example). that just isn't where the power of magic lies. which is *perfectly fine*. in fact, if there were a ton of really amazing damage-dealing spells that didn't have all the drawbacks, in my opinion *that* would be a problem, because there's a ton of stuff that magic can do apart from just dealing damage, and it should have *some* things that it isn't amazing at.


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