Kingdoms and states in the Great Lakes Area

[SolCannibal]

Looking for what books might be most informative in maping the area surrounding the Great Lakes, what empires, kingdoms, city-states or mostly unsettled - & possibly weird phenomena/monster-plagued - areas exist or not around its environs.

And yes, i'm aware that it is sort of like asking "hey people, what books can help me with maping the heartland of the basic setting", but i'm something of a (very) haphazard reader when it comes to setting lore, so please throw me a bone there. I'm guessing Coalition Navy would be a good one to start with, but would like to hear your opinions and suggestions.

[Pepsi Jedi]

You're looking for "Northern Gun 1 and Northern gun 2"

Great books. needless to say they focus on the main kingdom, Northern gun, but there's a bit of information on the rest.

[SolCannibal]

Considering how big a thing commerce as a whole is for the state, it makes loads of sense for the book to dedicate a good bit of wordcount to places Northern Gun trades with across North America and beyond. Thanks.

[ShadowLogan]

Looking for what books might be most informative in maping the area surrounding the Great Lakes, what empires, kingdoms, city-states or mostly unsettled - & possibly weird phenomena/monster-plagued - areas exist or not around its environs.

And yes, i'm aware that it is sort of like asking "hey people, what books can help me with maping the heartland of the basic setting", but i'm something of a (very) haphazard reader when it comes to setting lore, so please throw me a bone there. I'm guessing Coalition Navy would be a good one to start with, but would like to hear your opinions and suggestions.

Depending on what you consider the Great Lakes Area (how far inland) and what you are exactly looking for beyond kingdoms (gear, monsters, etc) this is what comes to mind:
-Northern Gun 1 & 2
-Mercenaries (maybe)
-Canada (it doesn't cover the Big NA players, but addresses the small timers)
-Shemarrian Nation (IIRC in relation to Archie's operations, could skip it)
-Coalition Navy Source Book (maybe, IIRC the GLA is part of their domain)
-Free Quebec (maybe, given CNSB having FQ as a driving force for the creation something might be in here of use)
-Spirit West (maybe, if it covers any Eastern Native Tribes in the region)
-Rifts Main Book/Rifts Ultimate Edition depending on on far inland you want to go and period (ex RMB mentions a potential kingdom in WI that is missing from RUE)
-Xitixic (might cover the region if they have any Hives, but I wouldn't count on it)
-D-Bees of North America (maybe, might add some new denizens to the region, but also reprints some from previous books mentioned)

[glitterboy2098]

the Rifts: Adventure book 01 and Rifts Index volumes 1 and 2 also have info related to the great lakes region.

and Sourcebook 4 CS navy has a lot of info on the great lakes.

[kaid]

Looking for what books might be most informative in maping the area surrounding the Great Lakes, what empires, kingdoms, city-states or mostly unsettled - & possibly weird phenomena/monster-plagued - areas exist or not around its environs.

And yes, i'm aware that it is sort of like asking "hey people, what books can help me with maping the heartland of the basic setting", but i'm something of a (very) haphazard reader when it comes to setting lore, so please throw me a bone there. I'm guessing Coalition Navy would be a good one to start with, but would like to hear your opinions and suggestions.

Things that cover the central US the most would be
NG1-2
CS war book/cs navy
Canada for the northern part of the great lakes
Mercs/merc town/
federation of magic
psyscape.

That should cover all the major players in the central US/great lakes area for the moment.

[J_cobbers]

Considering Minnesota is also a Great Lakes state, any of the Siege on Tolkeen books may also be approprate, though the focus isn't along the lake superior area.

[Jefffar]

I think a good reading list has been provided.

For reference, major communities on or adjacent to the Great Lakes include:

Chi-Town
Iron Heart
Tolkien
Lazlo
Ishpheming
Manistique

I also think Free Quebec territory may extend to the eastern edge of Lake Ontario.

[Jorick]

The NG books, Navy and Canada are essential.

Mercenaries has info about a few local companies.

Xiticix presents the most significant threat to the region (they are only on the west side, but Lazlo is the main protagonist, and they are located almost on the opposite side of the region--thus the book is basically a pan-lakes book), and every major power in the region has some article in some book expressing their reaction to the situation.

Free Quebec has info about their Navy and the waterways to the east (they dominate access from the Atlantic to the lakes).

I forget where the story of Iron Heart's ascendance is told. Probably CWC (which is relevant anyway, cause Chi-Town should probably be considered a significant local power).

Pirates, Bugs, trade, smuggling, amphibious commandos, battleships, sea (lake?) monsters, the largest weapons/tech manufacturers, one major magic community, and a couple smaller but significant ones make for some crowded lakes and rivers. Good thing they're so big.

[H.P. Hovercraft]

Chi-Town Navy is on the Great Lakes.
CS Iron Heart is on the Great Lakes.
Both Lazlo and New Lazlo are on the Great Lakes.
Manestique/NG and Ishpeming are both on the Great Lakes.
Queenstown Harbour (CS Navy book) is on the Great Lakes.
The Xiticix Duluth Hive is on the far western end, too.

ARCHIE has limited operations there (submarines transporting 'bots to and from NG), and the Splugorth's Shark-subs have been reported in the area as well.

New Kenora/Iron Heart Armaments is not on the Great Lakes; it's located on the south-west end of former Ontario, close to what used to be Manitoba.

Quebec also, is not located on the Great Lakes; though it's Navy may still travel up the Saint Lawrence river to deal with pirates and other menaces.

[SolCannibal]

The CS Navy makes for a pretty interesting case i guess, as it was mostly a Free Quebec concern/interest among the CS military, at least early on, meaning that Free Quebec's secession and newfound sovereignity might have brought considerable changes with it, as personnel, resources and interests are divided, disputed over and/or rearranged.

Does Aftermath or any of the Siege on Tolkeen discuss the political or administrative effects of Free Quebec's independence on CS government? I can see matters like disputes over bases, loss of personnel as soldiers &/or officers picked sides, went AWOL or deserted, not to mention "new frontier" instalations finding themselves with a shortage of staff, at least of the experienced kind, serving as quite fertile springboard for the kind of complications adventures spring from.

[Shark_Force]

when free quebec initially left, the CS basically lost the vast majority of its blue water navy as i recall. not completely sure, but i think based on the CS navy book and the fact that they took over iron hearts armaments, the CS has most likely rebuilt and probably even expanded their navy since then, based on what usually happens any time the CS suffers any sort of losses.

[SolCannibal]

when free quebec initially left, the CS basically lost the vast majority of its blue water navy as i recall. not completely sure, but i think based on the CS navy book and the fact that they took over iron hearts armaments, the CS has most likely rebuilt and probably even expanded their navy since then, based on what usually happens any time the CS suffers any sort of losses.

From what i remember of the books - though do i admit needing to check them out - the naval technology was the one thing the CS did not get out of conquering New Kenora and Iron Heart Armaments, making the probability of such rebuilding not quite that simple in the least, at least in the short run.

[H.P. Hovercraft]

Yeah, most of the 1st Fleet seceded to Free Quebec, but the CS still retained the 2nd fleet out of Lone Star, aka Ft. Pinnacle, on the Gulf of Mexico.

After FQ seceded, Chi-Town's Great Lakes fleet only number 2100 personnel compared to Ft. Pinnacle's 35,000...............ouch.

[SolCannibal]

Yeah, most of the 1st Fleet seceded to Free Quebec, but the CS still retained the 2nd fleet out of Lone Star, aka Ft. Pinnacle, on the Gulf of Mexico.

After FQ seceded, Chi-Town's Great Lakes fleet only number 2100 personnel compared to Ft. Pinnacle's 35,000...............ouch.

ROYAL ouch that. It leaves their brown water navy nearly completely gutted and while they could theoretically transfer personnel from the 2nd Fleet to hep in covering for that gap, moving such resources from the Gulf of Mexico, where they most probably clash semi-regularly with Atlantis, might leave them in a pretty tight spot indeed.

[glitterboy2098]

going by the SB4 details, the CS's bluewater navy is also gutted.. while the CS manages to hold onto the carriers and the refit 'golden age' submarines, it loses nearly all its new build subs, as well as almost 2/3rds it's cruiser, destroyer, and frigate fleet.

[SolCannibal]

going by the SB4 details, the CS's bluewater navy is also gutted.. while the CS manages to hold onto the carriers and the refit 'golden age' submarines, it loses nearly all its new build subs, as well as almost 2/3rds it's cruiser, destroyer, and frigate fleet.

Hmmm, with the secession from the CS, i ask myself how important would it be considered by New Quebec to establish an atlantic strategic defense center of their own in stead of the one in New Mexico and where would it be established if they decided to make it. There might be conflict with the Shemarrians too, depending on the spot in the coast, i guess.

[Blue_Lion]

Chi-Town Navy is on the Great Lakes.
CS Iron Heart is on the Great Lakes.
Both Lazlo and New Lazlo are on the Great Lakes.
Manestique/NG and Ishpeming are both on the Great Lakes.
Queenstown Harbour (CS Navy book) is on the Great Lakes.
The Xiticix Duluth Hive is on the far western end, too.

ARCHIE has limited operations there (submarines transporting 'bots to and from NG), and the Splugorth's Shark-subs have been reported in the area as well.

New Kenora/Iron Heart Armaments is not on the Great Lakes as well as a providence on the great lakes; it's located on the south-west end of former Ontario, close to what used to be Manitoba.

Quebec also, is not located on the Great Lakes; though it's Navy may still travel up the Saint Lawrence river to deal with pirates and other menaces.

You do know Ontario is the name of one of the great lakes, building a destroyer does kind of require access to a large body of water. It is possible that the "sea level of the lakes changed".

[SolCannibal]

Chi-Town Navy is on the Great Lakes.
CS Iron Heart is on the Great Lakes.
Both Lazlo and New Lazlo are on the Great Lakes.
Manestique/NG and Ishpeming are both on the Great Lakes.
Queenstown Harbour (CS Navy book) is on the Great Lakes.
The Xiticix Duluth Hive is on the far western end, too.

ARCHIE has limited operations there (submarines transporting 'bots to and from NG), and the Splugorth's Shark-subs have been reported in the area as well.

New Kenora/Iron Heart Armaments is not on the Great Lakes as well as a providence on the great lakes; it's located on the south-west end of former Ontario, close to what used to be Manitoba.

Quebec also, is not located on the Great Lakes; though it's Navy may still travel up the Saint Lawrence river to deal with pirates and other menaces.

You do know Ontario is the name of one of the great lakes, building a destroyer does kind of require access to a large body of water. It is possible that the "sea level of the lakes changed".

Thats an interesting bit to account for....

[Jefffar]

The Bruce Peninsula between Lake Huron and Georgian Bay has disappeared from most Rifts maps.

This isn't necessarily a water level thing though. The Bruce Peninsula is a limestone escapement that towers more than a hundred feet above the surrounding water.

[SolCannibal]

The Bruce Peninsula between Lake Huron and Georgian Bay has disappeared from most Rifts maps.

This isn't necessarily a water level thing though. The Bruce Peninsula is a limestone escapement that towers more than a hundred feet above the surrounding water.

The limestone being depleted through strip mining might be theoretically possible - though it beggars the question of when would it have happened, where did all that limestone go and for whom....

[glitterboy2098]

land subsidence maybe? if it is limestone, the ash falls of the cataclysm would have acidified the lakes more than usual, which could have eaten away at the underlying rock, creating large voids that eventually collapsed. the peninsula might now sit just under the water.

volcanic ash usually has a fair bit of sulfuric acid, Hydrogen Sulfide, Hydrochloric Acid, Hydrofluoric acid, and various fluoride compounds coating it, due to those chemicals being found in plumes of volcanic gasses that come out at the same time as the ash. these compounds in the clouds result in acid rain, and when introduced by ash to standing water, make the water more acidic.

North America suffered a lot of ashfall during the cataclysm, and even after the falls ended, erosion and rain percolating over/through through the layer of ash as it flows through the water cycle would have brought more in. so the great lake's Ph balance would have definitely been more to the acid side for a long time.

[SolCannibal]

land subsidence maybe? if it is limestone, the ash falls of the cataclysm would have acidified the lakes more than usual, which could have eaten away at the underlying rock, creating large voids that eventually collapsed. the peninsula might now sit just under the water.

volcanic ash usually has a fair bit of sulfuric acid, Hydrogen Sulfide, Hydrochloric Acid, Hydrofluoric acid, and various fluoride compounds coating it, due to those chemicals being found in plumes of volcanic gasses that come out at the same time as the ash. these compounds in the clouds result in acid rain, and when introduced by ash to standing water, make the water more acidic.

North America suffered a lot of ashfall during the cataclysm, and even after the falls ended, erosion and rain percolating over/through through the layer of ash as it flows through the water cycle would have brought more in. so the great lake's Ph balance would have definitely been more to the acid side for a long time.

Sounds like a plausible answer and also sort of explains the Coalitions disinterest in navigation on the Great Lakes or a fleet until somewhat recent times.

[Jefffar]

I don't think I can emphasize how much material we are talking about suddenly vanishing. The missing part of the peninsula is more than 50 miles long and more than 5 miles wide for nearly its entire length. We are talking about hundreds of millions if not billions of cubic feet of rock being literally wiped off the map.

In my own personal headcannon, the frequency of mysterious shipwrecks in the waters around the peninsula hint at something supernatural or perhaps extra dimensional going on. Unfortunately my detailed versions just keep end up sounding like the Yucatan Peninsula mystery.

[SolCannibal]

I don't think I can emphasize how much material we are talking about suddenly vanishing. The missing part of the peninsula is more than 50 miles long and more than 5 miles wide for nearly its entire length. We are talking about hundreds of millions if not billions of cubic feet of rock being literally wiped off the map.

In my own personal headcannon, the frequency of mysterious shipwrecks in the waters around the peninsula hint at something supernatural or perhaps extra dimensional going on. Unfortunately my detailed versions just keep end up sounding like the Yucatan Peninsula mystery.

Hence the rationale about the effects of major/cataclysmic enviromental change through an extended period reaching in centuries, though yes, a combination of both natural & supernatural/weird at action would be quite fitting for Rifts Earth.

[Kagashi]

Dont forget the Gromek village in the Allegheny Mountains (RCB1)

[ShadowLogan]

Chi-Town Navy is on the Great Lakes.
CS Iron Heart is on the Great Lakes.
Both Lazlo and New Lazlo are on the Great Lakes.
Manestique/NG and Ishpeming are both on the Great Lakes.
Queenstown Harbour (CS Navy book) is on the Great Lakes.
The Xiticix Duluth Hive is on the far western end, too.

ARCHIE has limited operations there (submarines transporting 'bots to and from NG), and the Splugorth's Shark-subs have been reported in the area as well.

New Kenora/Iron Heart Armaments is not on the Great Lakes; it's located on the south-west end of former Ontario, close to what used to be Manitoba.

Quebec also, is not located on the Great Lakes; though it's Navy may still travel up the Saint Lawrence river to deal with pirates and other menaces.

You can also add the Pirate Kingdom of Montreal (Canada, Shemarrian Nation) to the mix. Might be one or two more smaller communities mentioned in the Canda WB.

Iroguois League, Longhouse Preserve (Spirit West, Shemmarian Nation) are in NY, great lakes region

[SolCannibal]

Dont forget the Gromek village in the Allegheny Mountains (RCB1)

Oh yeah, the early books always brought up some curious random tidbits on D-bee/monster distribution across Rifts Earth. While not related to the Great Lakes are er se, I do remember some interesting stuff, like Death Weavers being found in the Yucatan, South America, Africa, India, Asia, Malaysia, and parts of China, the Demonic Cannibals (from Rifts Africa) having a presence in India or a massive pack of werewolves rumored to be worshipped as gods in the mountains of Romania, among other stuff.

Seeing a compilation of this in one archive could make for some nice hooks fodder, i guess.

[Kagashi]

There is always this: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=104785

Great product, but doesnt show everything from the more obscure references like RCB1 or Simvan and Psistalker ranges.

[SolCannibal]

There is always this: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=104785

Great product, but doesnt show everything from the more obscure references like RCB1 or Simvan and Psistalker ranges.

True, true, very nice indeed.