Mutants in time

[Talon Starblade]

Now that Palladium has resurrected AtB and the rest of the supplements for that line, I was wondering if anyone was thinking on updating/rebuilding Transdimensional TMNT into a more compatible form with the current books... Perhaps even redesigning the entire module for a more "universal" appeal functional to many or all of the other settings, given that for the most part Rifts and the various books already make the whole interdimentional thing un-necessary for reprinting.

Thankfully for those feeling the nostalgia we have the old books, but still, to see what might come from a full re-write could be interesting. I'm still pondering the new After the Bomb book to update my set. Any recommendations?

[eliakon]

A time travel book would be interesting. But it would require a brand new form of time travel (the current one is, as I understand it) tied up to closely to the old TMNT IP and thus not available for use any more.
This would not make the book less viable though, as having stats for a wide range of historical animals would still be really useful. Especially since this would also give the ATB line something to offer the game lines to use (namely mutant dinosaurs, mutant mammoths, mutant hominids, mutant trilobites and the like) which in turn would help push up ATBs popularity and help make additional books for it that much more viable.

[Bill]

What about doing it as its own stand-alone game rather than tying it to any of the other RPGs in Palladium's catalog? That would further distance it from the TMNT IP and make it more generally compatible with the other game lines, all of which could dip into time travel from it. All you'd need is to define the various mechanisms employed by time travelers to move between temporal points, several OCCs common to time travelers, and a few antagonist options that are capable of pursuing time travelers. I think the tough part would be deciding which hypotheses regarding temporal paradox you want to use and operationalizing them into game mechanics. The Wikipedia article on time travel may be useful for you. Writing one or more relatively detailed histories could be tough too. While you can probably get away with handwaving the past, you'll have to write something good about the future.

Then again you could take a page from the first Doctor, "history means nothing when you travel through space and time." A few random tables and a couple pages on creating alternate histories and futures might be sufficient.

[dulsi]

Now that Palladium has resurrected AtB and the rest of the supplements for that line, I was wondering if anyone was thinking on updating/rebuilding Transdimensional TMNT into a more compatible form with the current books... Perhaps even redesigning the entire module for a more "universal" appeal functional to many or all of the other settings, given that for the most part Rifts and the various books already make the whole interdimentional thing un-necessary for reprinting.

Thankfully for those feeling the nostalgia we have the old books, but still, to see what might come from a full re-write could be interesting. I'm still pondering the new After the Bomb book to update my set. Any recommendations?

Resurrected AtB? Has anything happened recently? The dinosaurs have been updated in Rifter. I wouldn't expect new supplements. They created a thread to get material for an errata years ago but nothing came from it.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

What about doing it as its own stand-alone game rather than tying it to any of the other RPGs in Palladium's catalog?

Because it's hard enough to get a supplement for an already established and loved game line. Can you imagine how much more difficult a sell it would be to convince PB to launch an entirely new game?

I support restructuring Trandimensional to the new ATB settings.

[Bill]

What about doing it as its own stand-alone game rather than tying it to any of the other RPGs in Palladium's catalog?

Because it's hard enough to get a supplement for an already established and loved game line. Can you imagine how much more difficult a sell it would be to convince PB to launch an entirely new game?

I support restructuring Trandimensional to the new ATB settings.

If AtB were more popular, I'd agree with you. However, the reason why Palladium doesn't put out a lot of supplements is that their games aren't attracting enough buyers to make it profitable most of the time. A new game wouldn't guarantee better sales, but it would at least be more likely to attract new customers.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

What about doing it as its own stand-alone game rather than tying it to any of the other RPGs in Palladium's catalog?

Because it's hard enough to get a supplement for an already established and loved game line. Can you imagine how much more difficult a sell it would be to convince PB to launch an entirely new game?

I support restructuring Trandimensional to the new ATB settings.

If AtB were more popular, I'd agree with you. However, the reason why Palladium doesn't put out a lot of supplements is that their games aren't attracting enough buyers to make it profitable most of the time. A new game wouldn't guarantee better sales, but it would at least be more likely to attract new customers.

Then to satisfy both our points of view it should be a cross title supplement regarding time travel. It should outline how time in the Megaverse works (i like the coiled hose theory from TransD, but if that's a tmnt property i understand) and the various means of traversing the time stream (mechanical, magical, etc.) It should also collect/reprint (something PB is good at) the material for dimension hopping.

One set of rules/mechanics consistent across all game lines. I know. I know. I'd delusional; but a guy can dream can't he?

[Shark_Force]

i suspect a more immediate concern is that someone has to actually write it. splicers isn't really a big line, but kevin at least keeps *wanting* to publish books. i suspect that has a lot to do with the fact that splicers has several freelancers handing basically finished books to kevin. if someone were to write an entire manuscript for an AtB book and pitch it to kevin, i don't think he'd say "no, AtB isn't popular enough".

(now, he'd probably say he's going to publish it and then take a bajillion years to actually get around to it, but it wouldn't be for lack of willingness on his part, just lack of time to actually make books come out as fast as he thinks he can).

probably your best bet is to make something suitable for a rifter article, perhaps 5-10 pages, and send it in.

[Axelmania]

Transdimensional never fully explained the grandfather paradox issue or how changes rippled and stuff. The only way it worked in my mind is going to alternate dimensions identical to you're except shifter forward in time.

For a the focus GURPS puts on time travel I never found an approach that didn't confuse me there either. Nor witch girls.

[asbjorn]

I think the best way to redo Transdimensional Turtles would be as a series of Rifter articles. I would love to see Palladium update the entire series with world and dimension books, but I don't see it happening anytime soon.

[Nightmask]

Transdimensional never fully explained the grandfather paradox issue or how changes rippled and stuff. The only way it worked in my mind is going to alternate dimensions identical to you're except shifter forward in time.

For a the focus GURPS puts on time travel I never found an approach that didn't confuse me there either. Nor witch girls.

There is no paradox, you kill your grandfather you continue to exist but time from that moment on adjusts as if he'd always been dead so you effectively exist without parents in a world you were never born in.

[Bill]

There is no paradox, you kill your grandfather you continue to exist but time from that moment on adjusts as if he'd always been dead so you effectively exist without parents in a world you were never born in.

I was unaware that Transdimensional TMNT or any other Palladium source defined that in rules. Where can I find it?

[Nightmask]

There is no paradox, you kill your grandfather you continue to exist but time from that moment on adjusts as if he'd always been dead so you effectively exist without parents in a world you were never born in.

I was unaware that Transdimensional TMNT or any other Palladium source defined that in rules. Where can I find it?

I don't have the book handy but it should be self-evident just from the same time-travel mini in the book, you couldn't possibly go back into the past and change things for the Civil War to end with a separate Confederate States of America and not eliminate your own birth as well as your traveling back into the past to change things. Time Travel must follow the model then based on what we've seen that you can go back, change things, cause history to be revised but remain in existence without paradox being an issue. I would imagine though if you were to do something that negated your own existence you'd want to stay in the past until such time as the revisions were over and done though since presumably if you were to return to the present era you'd be caught up in the revisions and erased from existence.

[Axelmania]

Pages 97 to 98 which talk about Temporal Kickback gives stages of undefined length things go through before being rewritten but it doesn't mention that you can survive killing your ancestors.

I don't necessarily agree that the Civil War ending in a separate victor would automatically prevent your birth. A huge amount of them, yes, but some people might end up getting born anyway.

[pblackcrow]

Um, has anyone besides the guy who did the webpage on geocities in the the early 2000s come up with decent PPE stats for the temporal spells and the 3 other spells that don't appear anywhere else? Sphere of invisibility, the sorcerer's seal, and impenetrable wall of force?

That's basically all that's missing.

[Axelmania]

Sorcerer's Seal functions similarly enough to Seal (level four spell page 173 of Rifts, 325 of HU2) that it could probably be figured by TTGD. Duration would need to be extended to permanent, range reduced to 1/10. I don't know how to stat it always being one target and not being able to target everything at higher levels.

In the Palladium RPG it was level six but that was when eleven was highest. We can look to other former level six spells for guidelines:
*Mystic Alarm dropper to 2 and got a 52x duration boost. Understandable in games which began without Diabolists like Rifts/HU but I think they should have kept the weekly duration in Palladium Fantasy to make the ward version competitive.
*Telekinetics dropped to 3 and was renamed Telekinesis along with a range boost and duration nerf.
*Animate Object remained 6
*Dispel Magic Barriers and Witch Bottle became 7
*Metamorphosis: Other became 7 (animal) or 8 (human) but these have no saves in HU, animal gives bonuses, and they also work on self (prev level five spell) so its well worth it. Not availab to wizards through cauldron anymore though, that sucks.
*Exorcism became 8
*Age and (The) Faeries' Dance became 9
*Mystic Portal became 10
*Calm Storms became 12
*Mind Wipe vanished into the realm of psionics
*Encase Object in Stone, Snow Storm and Walk the Waves became Warlock-only
*Schizophrenia appears to be gone entirely

Given no consistency I would just go with TtGD modifiers to Seal to judge its new level since it is necessary already to find the PPE. Would say single target at 5+ could make it a level lower and 20% less as a quirk/lacked benefit.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

What do any of those have to do with TdTMNT, mutants, or time travel? I'm thinking maybe that got posted in the wrong thread?

[pblackcrow]

Sorcerer's Seal functions similarly enough to Seal

No, actually, does not.

[Axelmania]

That's a matter of perspective. Aside from the difference in duration (which can be accounted for in Through the Glass Darkly) what other differences exist?

Aside from 1 lock > many locks change which I already pointed out.

[Glistam]

What do any of those have to do with TdTMNT, mutants, or time travel? I'm thinking maybe that got posted in the wrong thread?

Transdimensional TMNT introduces wizards and magic using the old spells per day rules. It's just before the section describing the Time Master spell casting class.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

What do any of those have to do with TdTMNT, mutants, or time travel? I'm thinking maybe that got posted in the wrong thread?

Transdimensional TMNT introduces wizards and magic using the old spells per day rules. It's just before the section describing the Time Master spell casting class.

Right. I remember the temporal magic section. My thought was that the discussion of the spells, while from the time travel book, would have been better suited else where; thereby leaving this thread for the OP discussion. No hard feelings.

[pblackcrow]

That's a matter of perspective. Aside from the difference in duration (which can be accounted for in Through the Glass Darkly) what other differences exist?

Aside from 1 lock > many locks change which I already pointed out.

The Sorcerer's Seal is permanent and requires...crap...(was is honey or bees wax? I'll have to check later.) Anyway, it's more powerful in the respect of sealing that 1 opening.. If I were to rule on that spell, I would have to say level 8, at least. And give it at least 45 PPE cost.

But anyway, it is the temporal spells are what I would most would like to see PPE stats and magical levels on. But hey, I can and will discuss it with my fellow GMs.

[Razorwing]

I've always gone with multiple branching timelines... that way the whole grandfather paradox just doesn't apply.

You are from a timeline where your grandfather lived to give birth to your father and eventually to you. You go back in time and accidentally (or purposely) kill your grandfather. You don't cease to exist because the timeline you are from still exists... you have just created a new timeline where your grandfather didn't survive to give birth to your father and thus you... a branch where the difference is the existence of your father. Unfortunately, you are now trapped in this new timeline and will be an anomaly. The timeline you were from originally is still out there... so you still exist... you just no longer have access to it.

This is based off of the idea that there are infinite timelines... parallel dimensions where every choice we make creates a new branch... one where we went right, one where we went left (a new branch for every possible choice that could be made). You wouldn't cease to exist if you crossed to a parallel timeline where you were never born... so why would you cease to exist when you go back in time and create such a timeline by killing your grandfather? The timeline you are from is still there and your grandfather is still alive... you're just in a different timeline where he isn't... and likely trapped there unless you can find a way to cross back to your original timeline (without screwing things up even more).

Marvel uses this idea a lot... explaining how time travelers can go into the past, change something to prevent a dark future and still exist (because the timeline they are from still exists as a parallel dimension/timeline where that change didn't happen). Of course they also sometimes have such characters ceasing to exist... only to pop up again at another point when that character is needed (I believe the old Exiles title had quite a few of these characters).

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

Interesting theory/point of view Razorwing. But why would you be stuck in the alternate timeline/dimensioin? I can understand being an anomaly in the new one and being a major anomaly in the old one. But unless your travel device/spell was suddenly no longer viable, I can't see why you'd be stuck.

[Nightmask]

Interesting theory/point of view Razorwing. But why would you be stuck in the alternate timeline/dimensioin? I can understand being an anomaly in the new one and being a major anomaly in the old one. But unless your travel device/spell was suddenly no longer viable, I can't see why you'd be stuck.

The general reason is because you traveled along the branch you just created in changing history so when you return to modern times it's modern times along that branch rather than the branch you cut yourself off of. But going by the way time travel works (with the revisions) clearly time travel in Transdimensional TMNT doesn't branch you off into alternate timelines a la Marvel but actually alter the dimension/timeline you're from. While a multiverse exists time travel doesn't take you to alternate universes or create new universes from what we see it does actually change your own history/timeline.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

Interesting theory/point of view Razorwing. But why would you be stuck in the alternate timeline/dimensioin? I can understand being an anomaly in the new one and being a major anomaly in the old one. But unless your travel device/spell was suddenly no longer viable, I can't see why you'd be stuck.

The general reason is because you traveled along the branch you just created in changing history so when you return to modern times it's modern times along that branch rather than the branch you cut yourself off of. But going by the way time travel works (with the revisions) clearly time travel in Transdimensional TMNT doesn't branch you off into alternate timelines a la Marvel but actually alter the dimension/timeline you're from. While a multiverse exists time travel doesn't take you to alternate universes or create new universes from what we see it does actually change your own history/timeline.

That's kind of how I understood it to work (multivesal). When you travel along your timeline, you're fine (no noticeable changes/effects) unless you make a significant change to your personal existence (kill your grand dad, etc). in which case you've created a new timeline/dimension that reflects the changes. To get back where you came from I believe would be a dimensional hop rather than a time one. at least that's how it makes sense in my head

[Nightmask]

Interesting theory/point of view Razorwing. But why would you be stuck in the alternate timeline/dimensioin? I can understand being an anomaly in the new one and being a major anomaly in the old one. But unless your travel device/spell was suddenly no longer viable, I can't see why you'd be stuck.

The general reason is because you traveled along the branch you just created in changing history so when you return to modern times it's modern times along that branch rather than the branch you cut yourself off of. But going by the way time travel works (with the revisions) clearly time travel in Transdimensional TMNT doesn't branch you off into alternate timelines a la Marvel but actually alter the dimension/timeline you're from. While a multiverse exists time travel doesn't take you to alternate universes or create new universes from what we see it does actually change your own history/timeline.

That's kind of how I understood it to work (multivesal). When you travel along your timeline, you're fine (no noticeable changes/effects) unless you make a significant change to your personal existence (kill your grand dad, etc). in which case you've created a new timeline/dimension that reflects the changes. To get back where you came from I believe would be a dimensional hop rather than a time one. at least that's how it makes sense in my head

Well going by the rules you can't get back where you came from because you're already there and changed things. While there might be a virtually identical universe out there that appears like your original one it's not it's just one that happens to look like how yours used to look. It's like having two effectively identical paintings but painting over one of them, it's still the same canvas but now has a new painting on it, while the other painting still looks like the first it's not the first one it just looks like the first one once did.

The way that the rules handle it then is that when you make a change that would be reflected in the future past that point history begins to revise itself to fit the new narrative, each wave making bigger changes to the 'painting' until an entirely new 'painting' is on the canvas. So you've killed your grandfather and everything that stems from that changes BUT you still exist and when you return to that revised future you're a man without a past for as far as the future is concerned you never existed even though you are still quite real and alive. There's no paradox because you yourself aren't affected by the revisions even though you caused them (if you read the classic Marvel entry for the Time Travel power it lists the various assumptions regarding time travel and gives an example, the one Marvel uses is the branching timelines where you can't change your own past only create branches, whereas the one used for the Transdimensional TMNT setting is the one everyone who travels through time assumes or generally wants where they can change things without fear of paradox).

[Razorwing]

You're confusing what the most popular theory of time travel as fact. The truth is that the theory I postulated is just as valid a theory as the other... due to the fact that no one has proven which theory (if any) is correct yet. That is the core of science fiction... which is what this game is... fiction, not fact.

Time and Alternate Dimensions are not necessarily different things. Quantum physics postulates that every choice one makes is played out, that the multiverse is constantly growing as every choice possible creates new, alternate versions of reality that coincide with the one where you made a specific choice. Many are so close that it could take an eternity to tell the difference between them (where the choices made have had little overall impact on that reality... such as wearing a blue shirt on Wednesday rather than a green one). Others are so drastically changed that it may be just as difficult to figure out what event lead to such drastic changes.

At its core, this is how nearly all the various Alternate Earths have come to be... some event set After the Bomb Earth down its path while a different event created the future that is Rifts Earth... and yet another possibly created the Splicer version (assuming it is Earth and not another planet). Travel back far enough along the timeline on any of these Earths, and it is possible to find the common thread that lead to all of these potentials and more. Change the event that lead to one future... and you end up in the timeline of a different future. Travel back far enough through Rifts past... and change something and you could end up in the present of After the Bomb. That Rifts future still is out there, but you have changed the path and timeline you can follow with your time machine. It is possible you could return by alternate methods... but not with time travel as such (at least not without going back to the exact moment of change and altering that moment further).

You are correct in that hopping Alternate Dimensions isn't time travel... in that you are bypassing the moment of change that created that alternate version of Earth. A version where you may not exist. So if you travel to a parallel Earth where you were never born (because your father was never born or died before conceiving you), do you cease to exist? Of course not... because the reality you are from is still out there. So why would time travel erase you just because you traveled back to that moment and created such an alternate timeline? You are still from a different timeline/dimension/reality where your father survived to give birth to you... you just can't use your machine to reach that point in time anymore.

[Razorwing]

And for the record... I don't remember any rule in any Palladium book that states that when you travel in time and change anything... that it will rewrite the future of the person who made the change. If you can provide a page and book reference, then I may concede the point (after I review it myself).

[Razorwing]

Ah... I see where you got this idea... the Temporal Kickback information from the Doc Feral adventure. The problem with this is that it is rules for a specific adventure... which may or may not have implications reaching beyond that specific adventure.

[Razorwing]

The problem with this rule however is that it makes a very valid argument that makes dimensional travel impossible... as if you travel to a dimension where you are in opposition to its reality (and all dimensional travelers are anomalies in such dimensions), then they should be erased from that reality.

It is like the example I made above where a person travels to a dimension where they were never born... making them an anomaly that shouldn't exist... thus they should be erased by the reality they are visiting.

[Nightmask]

You're confusing what the most popular theory of time travel as fact. The truth is that the theory I postulated is just as valid a theory as the other... due to the fact that no one has proven which theory (if any) is correct yet. That is the core of science fiction... which is what this game is... fiction, not fact.

Time and Alternate Dimensions are not necessarily different things. Quantum physics postulates that every choice one makes is played out, that the multiverse is constantly growing as every choice possible creates new, alternate versions of reality that coincide with the one where you made a specific choice. Many are so close that it could take an eternity to tell the difference between them (where the choices made have had little overall impact on that reality... such as wearing a blue shirt on Wednesday rather than a green one). Others are so drastically changed that it may be just as difficult to figure out what event lead to such drastic changes.

At its core, this is how nearly all the various Alternate Earths have come to be... some event set After the Bomb Earth down its path while a different event created the future that is Rifts Earth... and yet another possibly created the Splicer version (assuming it is Earth and not another planet). Travel back far enough along the timeline on any of these Earths, and it is possible to find the common thread that lead to all of these potentials and more. Change the event that lead to one future... and you end up in the timeline of a different future. Travel back far enough through Rifts past... and change something and you could end up in the present of After the Bomb. That Rifts future still is out there, but you have changed the path and timeline you can follow with your time machine. It is possible you could return by alternate methods... but not with time travel as such (at least not without going back to the exact moment of change and altering that moment further).

You are correct in that hopping Alternate Dimensions isn't time travel... in that you are bypassing the moment of change that created that alternate version of Earth. A version where you may not exist. So if you travel to a parallel Earth where you were never born (because your father was never born or died before conceiving you), do you cease to exist? Of course not... because the reality you are from is still out there. So why would time travel erase you just because you traveled back to that moment and created such an alternate timeline? You are still from a different timeline/dimension/reality where your father survived to give birth to you... you just can't use your machine to reach that point in time anymore.

I'm not confusing anything, I quite concisely explained how they've depicted time travel as working for Transdimensional TMNT and why you don't have something like the Grandfather paradox to worry about. Which is why what you postulate actually isn't valid because it contradicts the facts of time travel for the setting, just because it's fiction doesn't change the fact that within the boundaries of said fiction time travel works as I explained it, that is the correct theory of time travel for the setting.

[eliakon]

As I understood the Time Travel rules it wasn't so much an alternate universe...
...it was that your specific universe changed. However the entire universe gets 'recompiled' so that it is in compliance with its new history.

The grandfather paradox is solved by simply having the Grandfather be shot... but it doesn't have to be by the shooter. And even if it is... since the time travel rules allow for closed time loops, the shooter could be in a closed loop from the previous time line, and appear to shoot the person in this one. (that whole 'creation' bit allows for violation of casualty like that)