The Loss Of A Tech Advantage

[HWalsh]

Those better be MDC signs and banners though... since otherwise you can shoot right through them (and targeting through them is already established as possible with some of the sensor systems in the various books)

Actually no.

We know the rules on MD penitration. You can only shoot through 1 SDC structure. The second layer/object stops it.

So, if you have 2 SDC signs, or 1 sign with 1 MDC then the sniper is thwarted.

Also, yes, people poop in the woods. Though can you imagine how hard it would be to shoot through the woods? Thread the needle with an MDC weapons and only hit 1 tree? Hit 2, or 1 and a bush, bam shot missed.

Though I'm not saying that there aren't jobs for snipers. There totally are. They are very poor in common group situations.

They're great for guerilla style combat and terror tactics though.

Find a CS camp, pick off officers (when you can) but pop one grunt (when you can) then move. Do it at irregular intervals. Do tremendous damage to morale.

[Killer Cyborg]

Those better be MDC signs and banners though... since otherwise you can shoot right through them (and targeting through them is already established as possible with some of the sensor systems in the various books)

Actually no.

We know the rules on MD penitration. You can only shoot through 1 SDC structure. The second layer/object stops it.

Where's it say that?

Also, yes, people poop in the woods. Though can you imagine how hard it would be to shoot through the woods? Thread the needle with an MDC weapons and only hit 1 tree? Hit 2, or 1 and a bush, bam shot missed.

Aim carefully.

Though I'm not saying that there aren't jobs for snipers. There totally are. They are very poor in common group situations.

As in a group of PCs?
I agree.
Sniping is generally more of a solo activity (well, plus a spotter), and it involves going off alone for long periods of time.
That can be boring in group play.

[HWalsh]

Kaid,

You don't need to scour every inch of a the area. You just have to note places that have a clear LoS.

Agreed, although...

Then we aren't even taking into account the scanning and sensor technology that they have on Rifts Earth.

Maybe we should.

It's really hard to do that though since we have no specifics on it. I mean we know that naruni have stealth armor that masks their sensor signature and I'm not talking about power armor. Prowl wouldn't help with the sensor ranges as they exceed 2 miles means snipers would have to travel light.

Energy weapons likewise probably have a signature. So that means without some kind of signature mask the e-clip probably gives off a sensor signal. Meaning ballistic weapons are the best used against military forces.

Energy weapons would be used against soft non-professional targets.

Wow.

This would also explain banning ramjet rounds. The CS couldn't care less about them being cop killers. They are ammo that can likely beat sensors.

[HWalsh]

Where's it say that?

Pretty sure it's in the GMGr, SB1r, or one of the CBs

I can look when I get home.

[HWalsh]

Killer Cyborg,

I got home, and true to my word, found it on page 358 of the RUE.

"Note that most blasts and beams stop upon hitting their target, and if a beam goes all the way through an SDC structure, it stops upon hitting whatever is behind the first target. The same is true of M.D. projectiles such as rail gun rounds."

Found in the first paragraph after the warning paragraph explaining, "How M.D. Weapons Work."

-----

Thus this means that my statement was correct. Two SDC signs cannot be shot through.

That having been said, this would mean a thin secondary cover inside of a tent system would also prevent MD rounds from hitting targets.

Amusingly enough they will NOT stop an SDC round in the same situation, meaning that you are better off with these sniper tactics utilizing a high powered SDC rifle rather than the latest MD gadget.

[Killer Cyborg]

Well sourced.

On the other hand, I think that KS would say that common sense is to be used, and that thin stuff like banners and such don't count.

[HWalsh]

Well sourced.

On the other hand, I think that KS would say that common sense is to be used, and that thin stuff like banners and such don't count.

Actually...

You're going to hate this but...

It depends on how the weapons function via physics. for lasers? Actually yes, that makes sense, as the laser wouldn't really exist beyond the point hit, so if it is an instant pulse of light, there wouldn't be much (if any) penetration. Its not a solid projectile after all. Since we don't know how M.D. weapons work... Well...

Look at it this way:

Have you ever played pool? You know how you can hit a cue ball into another ball and you get sometimes a perfect transfer of force, where the cue ball stops without deflection and the ball struck moves forward with the momentum of the previous ball?

That is basically a completely efficient transference of force.

This would also mean that all of the energy is transferred at once. This would produce a much greater amount of force transferred, but would hamper penetration. Interestingly this would be actually the goal of most weapons engineers. Especially as much damage as MD weapons are capable of. (Literally, one blast of energy would go through multiple buildings otherwise.)

So, if MD weapons are designed to have a completely efficient transfer of force and energy then it makes sense. SD weapons wouldn't be capable of that however.

edit:

I shudder to think of the actual damage that such a transfer of force would cause with a real world bullet. Literally a limb struck would completely shatter if not outright explode from such a force transfer. This would be a normal real world bullet. It would be tremendously gruesome.

Which... Oddly... Is how MD weapons damage is described.

[Axelmania]

Well, long johns under all your pants in Rifts Earth everyone.

Heck, MD is weaker than SDC in this respect, SDC bullets could shoot my leg through pants with longjohns underneath.

[HWalsh]

Well, long johns under all your pants in Rifts Earth everyone.

Heck, MD is weaker than SDC in this respect, SDC bullets could shoot my leg through pants with longjohns underneath.

Well... Not quite.

If two structures are physically touching (like say long johns, in your example) then the transfer would work as the proximity. Kind of like in the case of lasers, for example, (or plasma, ion, really anything energy based) does damage via heat. Heat radiates, that is how it functions, so anything in that close proximity would still be incinerated.

As to rail guns, in theory hitting the clothes would cause the clothing to move from the transfer of energy and they would still impart the pressure, which would still effectively crush anything underneath because there is no place for the force to go. Two objects touching each other, in this respect, would act like one object so that idea wouldn't work.

Interestingly though this DOES explain the reason why MD weapons don't kill when there is overkill on MD armor. Because of the instant transference doesn't have a chance to carry through. So, yes, it would be wonky, but... Technically this makes sense.

So no... Long johns under pants don't work. Though two signs with a space of even a few inches? Totally works.

Granted, Palladium never actually explained how this tech works, but they did explain how this tech functions, and we can backwards extrapolate. This seems to work if we use what Dr. James Kaklios (see: The Physics of Superheroes (an amazing physics text book if you are a nerd like me anyway)) calls the miracle exception rule. Namely we ignore the source of the hero's power and look at the effects therein.

So the miracle exception is how these devices allow for completely efficient transfer of force/energy, but after that, if we assume that, then by physics the rest of it does appear to work.

-----

Edit: To add

For those who think that over-penetration actually means more damage, that is incorrect. A bullet that passes clean through a person, vs one that hits bone and is stopped (which means more energy is transferred) or one that starts bouncing around inside of the body (again discharging more energy inside the body) does far less actual damage and the person is much more likely to survive.

This is actually why, in real life, rolling with a blow actually works. As it allows that energy to be further transferred away. The same theory is how air bags and other safety items work. The more force that can be drawn off in some way the less damage something does. In theory an MD weapon without this kind of efficient transfer of energy wouldn't be lethal to most things. If, for example, a bullet with "MD force" that followed normal rules for energy transfer hit someone, it would pass through. If it hit say the shoulder... Not lethal. The arm? Not lethal. The head? Possibly lethal (possibly not as there have been many injuries where a fast moving object have actually gone clean through a person's head and not killed them OR severely injured them in anything resembling a mortal wound) depending on where it hit. However if we have this kind of efficient transfer of force, shooting someone in the arm would make their entire arm rupture and would almost certainly be lethal.

[eliakon]

I am really hesitant to believe that the GI Joe rule applies to SDC cloth against MD weapons...

[Axelmania]

If two structures are physically touching (like say long johns, in your example) then the transfer would work as the proximity.

Long johns under Hammer Pants then.

[HWalsh]

I am really hesitant to believe that the GI Joe rule applies to SDC cloth against MD weapons...

This isn't the "GI Joe" rule, and it doesn't. Axel is simply trying to mock the idea. Heh.

Long johns under Hammer Pants then.

Still wouldn't work. Basic deformation would force a flatten.

-----

Seriously, like it or not this isn't a rule I just made up. These rules have been in for a long time, even before the RUE (as the RUE just copy pasta'ed that section) and makes a LOT of sense when we look at the world and such. It simply is a limitation that MD weapons would have which is the same limitation that allows them to actually be MD weapons.

[eliakon]

I am really hesitant to believe that the GI Joe rule applies to SDC cloth against MD weapons...

This isn't the "GI Joe" rule, and it doesn't. Axel is simply trying to mock the idea. Heh.

It basically IS a GI Joe rule
It is saying that no matter what power a MDC attack has, and even though the MDC combat section says that they blow right through SDC targets and keep going, that they actually only damage the first object that touch and are fully and totally stopped.
That two 0 SDC cloth banners would be enough to prevent a 10 MD (1000 SDC) laser bolt from penetrating.
And I find that to be... Unlikely in the extreme
Especially when the MDC section goes to great pains to describe in detail what happens to SDC objects when subjected to MDC attacks.

I could maybe buy that if you strike a target with a few hundred SDC it will be sufficient...
But there is no way that I am going to buy that some cloth banners are going to magically stop railguns.
Basically what I am saying is that it is rules lawyering at its worst trying to interpret a cloth tent or paper banner as a "structure" so that one can argue that they will have the same "damage sink" effect as a tank or building.

[HWalsh]

I am really hesitant to believe that the GI Joe rule applies to SDC cloth against MD weapons...

This isn't the "GI Joe" rule, and it doesn't. Axel is simply trying to mock the idea. Heh.

It basically IS a GI Joe rule
It is saying that no matter what power a MDC attack has, and even though the MDC combat section says that they blow right through SDC targets and keep going, that they actually only damage the first object that touch and are fully and totally stopped.
That two 0 SDC cloth banners would be enough to prevent a 10 MD (1000 SDC) laser bolt from penetrating.
And I find that to be... Unlikely in the extreme
Especially when the MDC section goes to great pains to describe in detail what happens to SDC objects when subjected to MDC attacks.

I could maybe buy that if you strike a target with a few hundred SDC it will be sufficient...
But there is no way that I am going to buy that some cloth banners are going to magically stop railguns.
Basically what I am saying is that it is rules lawyering at its worst trying to interpret a cloth tent or paper banner as a "structure" so that one can argue that they will have the same "damage sink" effect as a tank or building.

You are misconstruing the rule actually.

First it would blow through the first and second target. It wouldn't damage a third target. This also means if you are on the other side of a door, and someone shoots the SDC door, it would go through the door and smash into you. This simply ensures that it wouldn't go through the door, you, the wall behind you, the guy behind that wall, and so on and so forth.

In the case of signs? Sorry. That is how the rules work. It also explains a LOT of things about Rifts and actually makes certain things make a lot more sense.

You can call it "rules lawyering" as much as you want. That is fine and dandy. To me it gives characters a reason to not always go for the biggest MD rifle they can get their hands on. It adds a bit more of the "right tool for the right situation" feel to the game which in MANY groups is sorely lacking.

Interesting note:
This doesn't apply to melee attacks, which can have some interesting side effects, nor does it apply to SDC weapons.

When was the last time you had a PC take out a CS officer with an SDC rifle shot as the weapon of choice as opposed to weapon of desperation? Personally, I have only had it happen once, and only after I showed the group this rule. How? He did something an MD rifle wasn't capable of. 1d6x10+3 SDC on a called shot head is pretty much enough to take out most who aren't an MD target.

Edit: Though I wouldn't call things that aren't at least possessing a positive value of SDC to be an SDC structure. I would probably allow a banner. A tent? Intended for use in combat zones? No. Even the CS would take these kinds of precautions to protect the men while they sleep. Clothing? No.

HOWEVER, I will say this, if you have ever had training, no sniper would ever try to actually shoot through a banner... Or anything else for that matter... Because that is basically a blind shot.

[Axelmania]

Remember folks: wear pajamas under your sleeping bag. It's not only hygienic, it could save your life.

Still wouldn't work. Basic deformation would force a flatten.

I think physical rounds would be traveling too quickly for that kind of force transfer to happen, it'd just blow through it.

Plus stuff like lasers wouldn't have the kinetic force needed to do it.

This also means if you are on the other side of a door, and someone shoots the SDC door, it would go through the door and smash into you.

That's why it's a good idea to get a screen door: not just to enjoy a fresh breeze without bugs.

if you have ever had training, no sniper would ever try to actually shoot through a banner... Or anything else for that matter... Because that is basically a blind shot.

If it were light-colored and there was backlighting there might be a silhouette to aim for. Or couldn't thermo-imaging show you stuff behind it?

[HWalsh]

Remember folks: wear pajamas under your sleeping bag. It's not only hygienic, it could save your life.

Still wouldn't work. Basic deformation would force a flatten.

I think physical rounds would be traveling too quickly for that kind of force transfer to happen, it'd just blow through it.

Plus stuff like lasers wouldn't have the kinetic force needed to do it.

Much like your "CS are good" threads I can't tell if you're just trying to troll or not. I will proceed though as if you are honestly attempting to ask a question.

First, as established, SDC clothing worn on an SDC being should, by the rules, and by physics, be the same being. Lasers are capable of piercing clean through an SDC target. This means they have to have some kind of physical component.

That and a laser hot enough to instantly burn through a tank would cause massive atmospheric distortion along its path. That would be more than enough to cause flattening. On top of that the heat diffusion at the target point would spread further out than such measures would protect against. Even if it did disburse instantly it would still turn a small laser into an inch or more radius column of death originating at the projection point.

With a physical projectile there would be a cascade effect. Transferring force in the direction through the target. They'd be splattered if they didn't have appreciable distance. So no. Clothing wouldn't help. An SDC shield however... In front of SDC armor... Would actually work.

For one shot anyway.

This also means if you are on the other side of a door, and someone shoots the SDC door, it would go through the door and smash into you.

That's why it's a good idea to get a screen door: not just to enjoy a fresh breeze without bugs.

if you have ever had training, no sniper would ever try to actually shoot through a banner... Or anything else for that matter... Because that is basically a blind shot.

If it were light-colored and there was backlighting there might be a silhouette to aim for. Or couldn't thermo-imaging show you stuff behind it?

A real sniper? No. That would be remarkably stupid. Guns don't work like they do in video games. A silhouette wouldn't show you fully accurate positioning, depth perception would be shot, it could work, it might not. Even a head shot isn't guaranteed to kill and bullets HAVE been known to deflect off of a human skull due simply to angle of impact.

Bullets follow normal deflection physics and follow the path of least resistance.

There are similar issues with thermal imaging. A sniper would only take that kind of a shot if there were absolutely no other options.

[Killer Cyborg]

Well sourced.

On the other hand, I think that KS would say that common sense is to be used, and that thin stuff like banners and such don't count.

Actually...

You're going to hate this but...

It depends on how the weapons function via physics. for lasers? Actually yes, that makes sense, as the laser wouldn't really exist beyond the point hit, so if it is an instant pulse of light, there wouldn't be much (if any) penetration. Its not a solid projectile after all. Since we don't know how M.D. weapons work... Well...

We do know how MD energy blasts work, though.

SB1 6
The character whirls around and blasts [a deer] with his mega-damage handgun, inflicting 2 MD! The animal is torn in half by the blast and the medium size tree behind it is also split in half and falls over toward the character (it barely misses him). Behind the tree is a volleyball size swath cut through the bushes, some 50 yards long.

and

Each shot misses, but punches basketball size holes through the walls and into the street where a fleeing patron is blasted in half.


Oh, sure. You can say that the RUE rule overrules previous material, so SB1 is no longer canon in its descriptions.
Play it that way if you like.
But--again--I'd wager that KS wouldn't let minor targets interfere with MD blasts, and would think it really odd if other people do.

[Killer Cyborg]

A real sniper? No. That would be remarkably stupid. Guns don't work like they do in video games. A silhouette wouldn't show you fully accurate positioning, depth perception would be shot, it could work, it might not. Even a head shot isn't guaranteed to kill and bullets HAVE been known to deflect off of a human skull due simply to angle of impact.

Bullets follow normal deflection physics and follow the path of least resistance.

There are similar issues with thermal imaging. A sniper would only take that kind of a shot if there were absolutely no other options.

Carlos Hathcock once fired a shot at a brief flash of light reflecting off of an enemy's equipment.
He did okay as a sniper.

[eliakon]

Thermal Imaging WOULD be a 'clear line of sight' though.
That is one of the reasons for getting FLIR scopes... for that wonderful see through the wall ability.
If you have a weapon that can shoot through that wall freely, then yeah your going to take that shot. In fact it is advantageous to add that capability since people tend to think "Hey I'm inside a room, they can't see me here I'm totally safe".

[Shark_Force]

thermal imaging doesn't let you see through walls. or at least, not normal walls. unless a person has literally been leaning against the wall for long enough to warm it up in one spot (but even then, you shouldn't really be able to tell if the wall is showing where the person currently is, or where they were before they moved away and the heat hasn't dissipated yet). and that should only really work for very thin walls for the most part... an exterior wall that is built to be insulated likely wouldn't transfer heat through fast enough for you to see a person on the other side in anything remotely like a reasonable amount of time.

[HWalsh]

A real sniper? No. That would be remarkably stupid. Guns don't work like they do in video games. A silhouette wouldn't show you fully accurate positioning, depth perception would be shot, it could work, it might not. Even a head shot isn't guaranteed to kill and bullets HAVE been known to deflect off of a human skull due simply to angle of impact.

Bullets follow normal deflection physics and follow the path of least resistance.

There are similar issues with thermal imaging. A sniper would only take that kind of a shot if there were absolutely no other options.

Carlos Hathcock once fired a shot at a brief flash of light reflecting off of an enemy's equipment.
He did okay as a sniper.

As I pointed out, "A sniper would only take that kind of a shot if there were absolutely no other options."

[HWalsh]

Thermal Imaging WOULD be a 'clear line of sight' though.
That is one of the reasons for getting FLIR scopes... for that wonderful see through the wall ability.
If you have a weapon that can shoot through that wall freely, then yeah your going to take that shot. In fact it is advantageous to add that capability since people tend to think "Hey I'm inside a room, they can't see me here I'm totally safe".

Uh no.

As someone who has used thermal imaging before, no. Thermal imaging is notoriously unreliable. There are all kinds of problems with it.

Insulation can just stop it. False positives such as other heat signatures that look very human. Or, really bad, if there are other living humans, at any appreciable distance and they move even close to each other you suddenly can't tell who is who.

[Killer Cyborg]

A real sniper? No. That would be remarkably stupid. Guns don't work like they do in video games. A silhouette wouldn't show you fully accurate positioning, depth perception would be shot, it could work, it might not. Even a head shot isn't guaranteed to kill and bullets HAVE been known to deflect off of a human skull due simply to angle of impact.

Bullets follow normal deflection physics and follow the path of least resistance.

There are similar issues with thermal imaging. A sniper would only take that kind of a shot if there were absolutely no other options.

Carlos Hathcock once fired a shot at a brief flash of light reflecting off of an enemy's equipment.
He did okay as a sniper.

As I pointed out, "A sniper would only take that kind of a shot if there were absolutely no other options."

There are always other options.
He could have waited; the flash could have been something else. He took a chance, trusting his instincts, and it paid off.

[eliakon]

Thermal Imaging WOULD be a 'clear line of sight' though.
That is one of the reasons for getting FLIR scopes... for that wonderful see through the wall ability.
If you have a weapon that can shoot through that wall freely, then yeah your going to take that shot. In fact it is advantageous to add that capability since people tend to think "Hey I'm inside a room, they can't see me here I'm totally safe".

Uh no.

As someone who has used thermal imaging before, no. Thermal imaging is notoriously unreliable. There are all kinds of problems with it.

Insulation can just stop it. False positives such as other heat signatures that look very human. Or, really bad, if there are other living humans, at any appreciable distance and they move even close to each other you suddenly can't tell who is who.

Considering that we are
1) discussing the much more advanced and reliable thermal sights in Rifts
and
2) that the statement was that no sniper would shoot through something even so flimsy as a cloth banner...

Yeah, since in the real world FLIR has been used to make shots against targets through walls and other obstructions where there was no visible light view (yes, in highly specific cases involving highly specialized sets of circumstances as I understand it... but they do exist) and since the much more advanced and effective Thermal scopes exist in Rifts I would venture a guess that those scopes are actually used. Just a hunch there.

[kaid]

Thermal Imaging WOULD be a 'clear line of sight' though.
That is one of the reasons for getting FLIR scopes... for that wonderful see through the wall ability.
If you have a weapon that can shoot through that wall freely, then yeah your going to take that shot. In fact it is advantageous to add that capability since people tend to think "Hey I'm inside a room, they can't see me here I'm totally safe".

I assume snipers take things like this into consideration even in modern days there are ways of mitigating it or lowering your signature enough not to be obvious. A threat environment where sniper grade lasers can strike from a half mile to a mile away with no warning or sound or light to give them away would be pretty much a nightmare for people trying to protect a target. Also I don't care how good your full body armor is eventually somebody gets an itchy nose and figures aw what the hell and cracks the lid to scratch it and BLAM dead.


The scary part is the sniper could even miss a few times potentially depending where the shot landed you may not initially even notice you were being shot at. Also one of the deadly things for snipers is scaring the local wildlife once they shoot sometimes gives people a target to focus on but if your gun does not make any noise there is nothing to alert them or scare them into flight. With some of the stealth armors available it would be really hard to find a good sniper unless you got really close to them.

[HWalsh]

Thermal Imaging WOULD be a 'clear line of sight' though.
That is one of the reasons for getting FLIR scopes... for that wonderful see through the wall ability.
If you have a weapon that can shoot through that wall freely, then yeah your going to take that shot. In fact it is advantageous to add that capability since people tend to think "Hey I'm inside a room, they can't see me here I'm totally safe".

I assume snipers take things like this into consideration even in modern days there are ways of mitigating it or lowering your signature enough not to be obvious. A threat environment where sniper grade lasers can strike from a half mile to a mile away with no warning or sound or light to give them away would be pretty much a nightmare for people trying to protect a target. Also I don't care how good your full body armor is eventually somebody gets an itchy nose and figures aw what the hell and cracks the lid to scratch it and BLAM dead.


The scary part is the sniper could even miss a few times potentially depending where the shot landed you may not initially even notice you were being shot at. Also one of the deadly things for snipers is scaring the local wildlife once they shoot sometimes gives people a target to focus on but if your gun does not make any noise there is nothing to alert them or scare them into flight. With some of the stealth armors available it would be really hard to find a good sniper unless you got really close to them.

Thermal imaging would illuminate a path right back to the sniper. The air between the target and the weapon would be super heated burned ozone. The sniper would have to move after each shot to remain hidden.

[Shark_Force]

also a miss is going to be very noticeable. when you blast a crater in the ground, it isn't subtle.

[eliakon]

This is probably one reason that TK rifles would be really popular in the sniper community...
Heck its a good reason to go on a bug hut... to get their sweet sweet rifle
The strength issue can be offset with a bipod, the 4000' range is insane, and the invisible silent TK 'rounds'... Oh yeah

If the psychics/psi powers from BTS are in use the TK bullet powers/guns are another interesting option. Even if they are SDC if your shooting an SDC person that is still going to be plenty for most purposes.

[HWalsh]

This is probably one reason that TK rifles would be really popular in the sniper community...
Heck its a good reason to go on a bug hut... to get their sweet sweet rifle
The strength issue can be offset with a bipod, the 4000' range is insane, and the invisible silent TK 'rounds'... Oh yeah

If the psychics/psi powers from BTS are in use the TK bullet powers/guns are another interesting option. Even if they are SDC if your shooting an SDC person that is still going to be plenty for most purposes.

A good Rifts Sniper will likely use SD weapons over MD anyway. There is, first of all, all of the rules issue that make MD weapons a liability, second of all the fact is the target will likely be SD anyway and since you have to hit them when they aren't armored then the MD weapon is unusually overkill. TK rounds would make for an incredible sniper weapon.

No sound, no flash, no heat trail, no e-clip signature to hide, no projectile to even lead to an explanation of what happened.

[Axelmania]

Much like your "CS are good" threads I can't tell if you're just trying to troll or not. I will proceed though as if you are honestly attempting to ask a question.

please always do so. Not the only one who has to assume good faith.

First, as established, SDC clothing worn on an SDC being should, by the rules, and by physics, be the same being. Lasers are capable of piercing clean through an SDC target. This means they have to have some kind of physical component.

Hammer Pants are poofy and don't have to touch the underlying material. I don't see anything about having to treat long johns as part of my being. Lasers burn clean through, pure energy not physical. Physical light attacks get called photons, APS light for example.

A real sniper? No. That would be remarkably stupid. Guns don't work like they do in video games. A silhouette wouldn't show you fully accurate positioning, depth perception would be shot, it could work, it might not. Even a head shot isn't guaranteed to kill and bullets HAVE been known to deflect off of a human skull due simply to angle of impact.

Bullets follow normal deflection physics and follow the path of least resistance.

There are similar issues with thermal imaging. A sniper would only take that kind of a shot if there were absolutely no other options.

Moot concerns for laser snipers.

[HWalsh]

Much like your "CS are good" threads I can't tell if you're just trying to troll or not. I will proceed though as if you are honestly attempting to ask a question.

please always do so. Not the only one who has to assume good faith.

First, as established, SDC clothing worn on an SDC being should, by the rules, and by physics, be the same being. Lasers are capable of piercing clean through an SDC target. This means they have to have some kind of physical component.

Hammer Pants are poofy and don't have to touch the underlying material. I don't see anything about having to treat long johns as part of my being. Lasers burn clean through, pure energy not physical. Physical light attacks get called photons, APS light for example.

A real sniper? No. That would be remarkably stupid. Guns don't work like they do in video games. A silhouette wouldn't show you fully accurate positioning, depth perception would be shot, it could work, it might not. Even a head shot isn't guaranteed to kill and bullets HAVE been known to deflect off of a human skull due simply to angle of impact.

Bullets follow normal deflection physics and follow the path of least resistance.

There are similar issues with thermal imaging. A sniper would only take that kind of a shot if there were absolutely no other options.

Moot concerns for laser snipers.

...

Okay. Look. Hammer pants wouldn't work. Okay. Stop. Seriously.

That isn't considered a separate SDC structure, for one, for two they would deform at point of impact thus reducing any bonuses that they might have offered due to the distortion caused from the heat of the laser. So please. For the sake of this thread continuing stop trying to come up with the silliest possible "rebuttal exploit."

If such continues I'll simply ignore further posts from you on the topic. You are trying to mock and derail.

[Axelmania]

The point is that the book doesn't actually give us guidelines on when to consider it separate structures. Really as KC pointed out, the third thing being undamaged is out of Rifts spirit anyway. It is a new Ultimate weirdness like the GI Joe rule so of course its going to get poked fun at. Not sure why you're so serious about it. No matter what house rules you make about adjacent objects counting as one object someone can still design something just beyond that limit to exploit things.

Like for example two rice paper walls five feet apart being used to protect someone instead of a 5 foot thick concrete wall.

[Killer Cyborg]

Okay. Look. Hammer pants wouldn't work. Okay. Stop. Seriously.

That isn't considered a separate SDC structure, for one...

That's part of the question, what exactly does or does not constitute a separate SDC structure.
Say your MD attack encounters a leaf in its path.
Does that count as a separate SDC structure?

[DocS]

An issue is that technological advancement is very intuitive for us. Guns today *are* better than they were 100 years ago.

We don't really have the same cultural idea about magic and psychic abilities, and the rifts books kind of play to that. There are not very many instances of things like 'lower amounts of PPE doing more damage' in the spells and psychic powers, which would not be an issue if the game's world didn't seem to put the three against one another in sort of enforced binaries (CS is technological, Fed of Magic is Magical, Psyscape is psychic.).

You see this in ranges. While a gun with a range of miles is something we can accept, they don't have any spells that have ranges that long.. when ironically why not? I would love magic, psionics, and tech to have equal power just work differently. When you can scry, shouldn't that allow very long range attacks? What do things like '6th sense' do to the ability to do a successful surprise attack?

A lot of it is artifact. In the original BTS, your characters had magic and psionics, they were comparatively weak but no one generally knew they existed as such most places had zero countermeasures. But once Rifts came about, they kind of cut and paste the majority of spells and psionic abilities... but in a world where everyone believes such things exist, mages/psychics don't have the advantage of surprise anymore.

But they largely 'Cut/paste' the magic psionic section from BTS and added some MDC spells... which... MDC damage magical and psionic abilities are prohibitively expensive, too short ranged, and don't do enough damage. Saving throws are jokingly easy, and in general the magic/psionic abilities don't do what they're supposed to do as well as they're supposed to do it.

Step 1, they need to do something about saving throws. 15 or higher to save vs a Mind Melter!? Absurdly easy. Maybe 15 + the mind melter's ME bonus/level... or something like that. Same with spells.

[HWalsh]

Okay. Look. Hammer pants wouldn't work. Okay. Stop. Seriously.

That isn't considered a separate SDC structure, for one...

That's part of the question, what exactly does or does not constitute a separate SDC structure.
Say your MD attack encounters a leaf in its path.
Does that count as a separate SDC structure?

Does a single leaf have SDC would be the question.

Clothing, for example, would function like armor (more or less) which, when worn, adds SDC and by the rules counts as part of the person (which is why spells that target the person can hit them even through armor) thus it wouldn't matter how many layers of clothing you added as you're just adding SDC to an SDC structure.

Single leaf, I'd think no, as it doesn't have SDC. Two signs? Those are two things. Two unconnected structures.

[Killer Cyborg]

Single leaf, I'd think no, as it doesn't have SDC. Two signs? Those are two things. Two unconnected structures.

What kind of signs are you picturing?

[HWalsh]

you'recourse its going to get poked fun at.

So you were just trying to mock it. Which is trolling. Please don't do that.

As to saying it's "against the spirit of Rifts" I disagree.

The sad part is, it's actually the most realistic part of Rifts.

Did you know, otherwise, it would be impossible to deal MD damage to an SD target?

Physics wouldn't allow it save for in the case of an explosion.

So you get stuck between a rock and a hard place:

Either

A: MD targets have amazing penitration (which is against the rules of the game) and thus deal very little damage to SD targets.

... Or...

B: MD weapons can perfectly transfer force, which greatly reduces penitration but allows tremendous damage against SD targets.

You literally cannot have both excessive penitration and excessive damage unless the blast is sufficiently large enough to blast a full basketball sized hole through the target which is possible for plasma or a laser (though the weapons would NOT have traditional sized barrels that Rifts art shows) but not for a rail gun.

If an MD laser had extreme penitration, at the size we are shown the barrels are, then they'd be almost never lethal on a human (or any other) target unless a vital organ were hit and even then it would be far less lethal than a conventional bullet.

So either they somehow transfer the force, at which point the GI Joe rule, the two SD structure rule, the 100 SD per point of MD rules all work (remarkably well actually) or they have the extreme penitration the rules say they don't have and they'd be far less damaging weapons.

[HWalsh]

Single leaf, I'd think no, as it doesn't have SDC. Two signs? Those are two things. Two unconnected structures.

What kind of signs are you picturing?

I'm thinking wood backed or aluminum composite, the kind used at large rallies.

[HWalsh]

Here, let me give you a brief lesson regarding how injuries work:

The human body is a hard structure (skeleton) surrounded by softer structures (muscles and organs) when we take damage it is basically our bodies absorbing force.

When damage quickly exceeds our body's ability to absorb force, the body "breaks" and the force moves onto the next layer. Speed/Velocity acts as a force multiplier. (Of course this is the abridged version)

Heat acts differently of course.

There are reasons why we are more likely to survive injuries that pass through us.

If, for example, a rebar rod goes through, for example, your head. Statistically you can survive this. Potentially without brain damage. (Look it up on Google, i did but those links were pretty eeew.)

Those are rare survivals. Though they happen.

Now what about the chest? Very survivable.
Stomach? Survivable with treatment.
Shoulder? Very survivable.

In Rifts? An MD weapon? Dead, dead, dead, dead.

Why?

There is only one answer.

The force transferred more efficiently than the body could fail.

Otherwise there would actually be a maximum SDC damage an MD hit could do to the body. IE that rebar hit to the head? That's the most possible damage that any weapon that can't more efficiently transfer force can do.

[eliakon]

Here, let me give you a brief lesson regarding how injuries work:

The human body is a hard structure (skeleton) surrounded by softer structures (muscles and organs) when we take damage it is basically our bodies absorbing force.

When damage quickly exceeds our body's ability to absorb force, the body "breaks" and the force moves onto the next layer. Speed/Velocity acts as a force multiplier. (Of course this is the abridged version)

Heat acts differently of course.

There are reasons why we are more likely to survive injuries that pass through us.

If, for example, a rebar rod goes through, for example, your head. Statistically you can survive this. Potentially without brain damage. (Look it up on Google, i did but those links were pretty eeew.)

Those are rare survivals. Though they happen.

Now what about the chest? Very survivable.
Stomach? Survivable with treatment.
Shoulder? Very survivable.

In Rifts? An MD weapon? Dead, dead, dead, dead.

Why?

There is only one answer.

The force transferred more efficiently than the body could fail.

Otherwise there would actually be a maximum SDC damage an MD hit could do to the body. IE that rebar hit to the head? That's the most possible damage that any weapon that can't more efficiently transfer force can do.

There is one tiny problem with your example
Your trying to translate a real world concept into a game.
The real world though does not use hit points.
In the real world bullets tend to do more damage then fists.
In the real world hitting a person with a baseball bat and a battle axe will have radically different results

But not in game land.
Thus pretending that real world damage and game damage some how equate is... well its something but it isn't workable.

[Natasha]

Here, let me give you a brief lesson regarding how injuries work:

The human body is a hard structure (skeleton) surrounded by softer structures (muscles and organs) when we take damage it is basically our bodies absorbing force.

When damage quickly exceeds our body's ability to absorb force, the body "breaks" and the force moves onto the next layer. Speed/Velocity acts as a force multiplier. (Of course this is the abridged version)

Heat acts differently of course.

There are reasons why we are more likely to survive injuries that pass through us.

If, for example, a rebar rod goes through, for example, your head. Statistically you can survive this. Potentially without brain damage. (Look it up on Google, i did but those links were pretty eeew.)

Those are rare survivals. Though they happen.

Now what about the chest? Very survivable.
Stomach? Survivable with treatment.
Shoulder? Very survivable.

In Rifts? An MD weapon? Dead, dead, dead, dead.

Why?

There is only one answer.

The force transferred more efficiently than the body could fail.

Otherwise there would actually be a maximum SDC damage an MD hit could do to the body. IE that rebar hit to the head? That's the most possible damage that any weapon that can't more efficiently transfer force can do.

Doesn't explain entry vs exit wouds. Doesn't account for bodies being mostly water. Also, force is not transferred by Newton's third law.

[HWalsh]

Here, let me give you a brief lesson regarding how injuries work:

The human body is a hard structure (skeleton) surrounded by softer structures (muscles and organs) when we take damage it is basically our bodies absorbing force.

When damage quickly exceeds our body's ability to absorb force, the body "breaks" and the force moves onto the next layer. Speed/Velocity acts as a force multiplier. (Of course this is the abridged version)

Heat acts differently of course.

There are reasons why we are more likely to survive injuries that pass through us.

If, for example, a rebar rod goes through, for example, your head. Statistically you can survive this. Potentially without brain damage. (Look it up on Google, i did but those links were pretty eeew.)

Those are rare survivals. Though they happen.

Now what about the chest? Very survivable.
Stomach? Survivable with treatment.
Shoulder? Very survivable.

In Rifts? An MD weapon? Dead, dead, dead, dead.

Why?

There is only one answer.

The force transferred more efficiently than the body could fail.

Otherwise there would actually be a maximum SDC damage an MD hit could do to the body. IE that rebar hit to the head? That's the most possible damage that any weapon that can't more efficiently transfer force can do.

Doesn't explain entry vs exit wouds. Doesn't account for bodies being mostly water. Also, force is not transferred by Newton's third law.

Hence why I pointed out the miracle exception rule. These weapons can somehow do that.

[HWalsh]

Here, let me give you a brief lesson regarding how injuries work:

The human body is a hard structure (skeleton) surrounded by softer structures (muscles and organs) when we take damage it is basically our bodies absorbing force.

When damage quickly exceeds our body's ability to absorb force, the body "breaks" and the force moves onto the next layer. Speed/Velocity acts as a force multiplier. (Of course this is the abridged version)

Heat acts differently of course.

There are reasons why we are more likely to survive injuries that pass through us.

If, for example, a rebar rod goes through, for example, your head. Statistically you can survive this. Potentially without brain damage. (Look it up on Google, i did but those links were pretty eeew.)

Those are rare survivals. Though they happen.

Now what about the chest? Very survivable.
Stomach? Survivable with treatment.
Shoulder? Very survivable.

In Rifts? An MD weapon? Dead, dead, dead, dead.

Why?

There is only one answer.

The force transferred more efficiently than the body could fail.

Otherwise there would actually be a maximum SDC damage an MD hit could do to the body. IE that rebar hit to the head? That's the most possible damage that any weapon that can't more efficiently transfer force can do.

There is one tiny problem with your example
Your trying to translate a real world concept into a game.
The real world though does not use hit points.
In the real world bullets tend to do more damage then fists.
In the real world hitting a person with a baseball bat and a battle axe will have radically different results

But not in game land.
Thus pretending that real world damage and game damage some how equate is... well its something but it isn't workable.

In game land we use game rules.

MD weapons cannot pass through 2 SDC structures.
MD armor prevents Pierce damage.

My real world explanation was designed to explain the in-game rules.

[Killer Cyborg]

Here, let me give you a brief lesson regarding how injuries work:

The human body is a hard structure (skeleton) surrounded by softer structures (muscles and organs) when we take damage it is basically our bodies absorbing force.

When damage quickly exceeds our body's ability to absorb force, the body "breaks" and the force moves onto the next layer. Speed/Velocity acts as a force multiplier. (Of course this is the abridged version)

Heat acts differently of course.

There are reasons why we are more likely to survive injuries that pass through us.

If, for example, a rebar rod goes through, for example, your head. Statistically you can survive this. Potentially without brain damage. (Look it up on Google, i did but those links were pretty eeew.)

Those are rare survivals. Though they happen.

Now what about the chest? Very survivable.
Stomach? Survivable with treatment.
Shoulder? Very survivable.

In Rifts? An MD weapon? Dead, dead, dead, dead.

Why?

There is only one answer.

The force transferred more efficiently than the body could fail.

Otherwise there would actually be a maximum SDC damage an MD hit could do to the body. IE that rebar hit to the head? That's the most possible damage that any weapon that can't more efficiently transfer force can do.

There isn't a maximum SDC damage that an attack can inflict to the body either.
If you're shot in the chest or head for 360 SDC?
Dead.

Assuming that you have <360 (PE+HP+SDC), anyway.

[Shark_Force]

An issue is that technological advancement is very intuitive for us. Guns today *are* better than they were 100 years ago.

We don't really have the same cultural idea about magic and psychic abilities, and the rifts books kind of play to that. There are not very many instances of things like 'lower amounts of PPE doing more damage' in the spells and psychic powers, which would not be an issue if the game's world didn't seem to put the three against one another in sort of enforced binaries (CS is technological, Fed of Magic is Magical, Psyscape is psychic.).

You see this in ranges. While a gun with a range of miles is something we can accept, they don't have any spells that have ranges that long.. when ironically why not? I would love magic, psionics, and tech to have equal power just work differently. When you can scry, shouldn't that allow very long range attacks? What do things like '6th sense' do to the ability to do a successful surprise attack?

A lot of it is artifact. In the original BTS, your characters had magic and psionics, they were comparatively weak but no one generally knew they existed as such most places had zero countermeasures. But once Rifts came about, they kind of cut and paste the majority of spells and psionic abilities... but in a world where everyone believes such things exist, mages/psychics don't have the advantage of surprise anymore.

But they largely 'Cut/paste' the magic psionic section from BTS and added some MDC spells... which... MDC damage magical and psionic abilities are prohibitively expensive, too short ranged, and don't do enough damage. Saving throws are jokingly easy, and in general the magic/psionic abilities don't do what they're supposed to do as well as they're supposed to do it.

Step 1, they need to do something about saving throws. 15 or higher to save vs a Mind Melter!? Absurdly easy. Maybe 15 + the mind melter's ME bonus/level... or something like that. Same with spells.

but there are some rather long range spells. they're certainly less common than the spells with under 500 foot range, but there are in fact spells that have crazy long range. air elemental magic is particularly good for this, with 2 or 3 outstandingly good options (they cost a lot of PPE, but they have great range and damage), but even standard invocation magic has a few good options with over 1500 foot starting range, and by the time you're level 5 or so over 2000 feet is quite possible.

[HWalsh]

Here, let me give you a brief lesson regarding how injuries work:

The human body is a hard structure (skeleton) surrounded by softer structures (muscles and organs) when we take damage it is basically our bodies absorbing force.

When damage quickly exceeds our body's ability to absorb force, the body "breaks" and the force moves onto the next layer. Speed/Velocity acts as a force multiplier. (Of course this is the abridged version)

Heat acts differently of course.

There are reasons why we are more likely to survive injuries that pass through us.

If, for example, a rebar rod goes through, for example, your head. Statistically you can survive this. Potentially without brain damage. (Look it up on Google, i did but those links were pretty eeew.)

Those are rare survivals. Though they happen.

Now what about the chest? Very survivable.
Stomach? Survivable with treatment.
Shoulder? Very survivable.

In Rifts? An MD weapon? Dead, dead, dead, dead.

Why?

There is only one answer.

The force transferred more efficiently than the body could fail.

Otherwise there would actually be a maximum SDC damage an MD hit could do to the body. IE that rebar hit to the head? That's the most possible damage that any weapon that can't more efficiently transfer force can do.

There isn't a maximum SDC damage that an attack can inflict to the body either.
If you're shot in the chest or head for 360 SDC?
Dead.

Assuming that you have <360 (PE+HP+SDC), anyway.

Because of the non-penitration. If you take 360 SDC to the head that translates to the bullet bouncing around and turning the gray matter into a tossed salad.

[Natasha]

Here, let me give you a brief lesson regarding how injuries work:

The human body is a hard structure (skeleton) surrounded by softer structures (muscles and organs) when we take damage it is basically our bodies absorbing force.

When damage quickly exceeds our body's ability to absorb force, the body "breaks" and the force moves onto the next layer. Speed/Velocity acts as a force multiplier. (Of course this is the abridged version)

Heat acts differently of course.

There are reasons why we are more likely to survive injuries that pass through us.

If, for example, a rebar rod goes through, for example, your head. Statistically you can survive this. Potentially without brain damage. (Look it up on Google, i did but those links were pretty eeew.)

Those are rare survivals. Though they happen.

Now what about the chest? Very survivable.
Stomach? Survivable with treatment.
Shoulder? Very survivable.

In Rifts? An MD weapon? Dead, dead, dead, dead.

Why?

There is only one answer.

The force transferred more efficiently than the body could fail.

Otherwise there would actually be a maximum SDC damage an MD hit could do to the body. IE that rebar hit to the head? That's the most possible damage that any weapon that can't more efficiently transfer force can do.

Doesn't explain entry vs exit wouds. Doesn't account for bodies being mostly water. Also, force is not transferred by Newton's third law.

Hence why I pointed out the miracle exception rule. These weapons can somehow do that.

Except that nowhere does he apply the rule to momentum or energy. If he did, he wouldn't be talking about physics anymore. These are the most fundamental quantities in all of physics. Furthermore, he uses energy conservation in the first example to explain Superman's jumping ability on Earth; so it would be odd to later assert energy conservation isn't a thing. Everything in the book is real world physics even when he allows certain things in order to discuss the concepts.

So if you are going to say penetration and damage are mutually exclusive, you are unraveling real world physics and emphatically not using real world physics in your explanation.

[HWalsh]

Here, let me give you a brief lesson regarding how injuries work:

The human body is a hard structure (skeleton) surrounded by softer structures (muscles and organs) when we take damage it is basically our bodies absorbing force.

When damage quickly exceeds our body's ability to absorb force, the body "breaks" and the force moves onto the next layer. Speed/Velocity acts as a force multiplier. (Of course this is the abridged version)

Heat acts differently of course.

There are reasons why we are more likely to survive injuries that pass through us.

If, for example, a rebar rod goes through, for example, your head. Statistically you can survive this. Potentially without brain damage. (Look it up on Google, i did but those links were pretty eeew.)

Those are rare survivals. Though they happen.

Now what about the chest? Very survivable.
Stomach? Survivable with treatment.
Shoulder? Very survivable.

In Rifts? An MD weapon? Dead, dead, dead, dead.

Why?

There is only one answer.

The force transferred more efficiently than the body could fail.

Otherwise there would actually be a maximum SDC damage an MD hit could do to the body. IE that rebar hit to the head? That's the most possible damage that any weapon that can't more efficiently transfer force can do.

Doesn't explain entry vs exit wouds. Doesn't account for bodies being mostly water. Also, force is not transferred by Newton's third law.

Hence why I pointed out the miracle exception rule. These weapons can somehow do that.

Except that nowhere does he apply the rule to momentum or energy. If he did, he wouldn't be talking about physics anymore. These are the most fundamental quantities in all of physics. Furthermore, he uses energy conservation in the first example to explain Superman's jumping ability on Earth; so it would be odd to later assert energy conservation isn't a thing. Everything in the book is real world physics even when he allows certain things in order to discuss the concepts.

So if you are going to say penetration and damage are mutually exclusive, you are unraveling real world physics and emphatically not using real world physics in your explanation.

Not at all. Damage is the effect of force absorbed by, ie transferred to, the body.

Penitration is caused by striking something with more force than it can absorb.

[Natasha]

Here, let me give you a brief lesson regarding how injuries work:

The human body is a hard structure (skeleton) surrounded by softer structures (muscles and organs) when we take damage it is basically our bodies absorbing force.

When damage quickly exceeds our body's ability to absorb force, the body "breaks" and the force moves onto the next layer. Speed/Velocity acts as a force multiplier. (Of course this is the abridged version)

Heat acts differently of course.

There are reasons why we are more likely to survive injuries that pass through us.

If, for example, a rebar rod goes through, for example, your head. Statistically you can survive this. Potentially without brain damage. (Look it up on Google, i did but those links were pretty eeew.)

Those are rare survivals. Though they happen.

Now what about the chest? Very survivable.
Stomach? Survivable with treatment.
Shoulder? Very survivable.

In Rifts? An MD weapon? Dead, dead, dead, dead.

Why?

There is only one answer.

The force transferred more efficiently than the body could fail.

Otherwise there would actually be a maximum SDC damage an MD hit could do to the body. IE that rebar hit to the head? That's the most possible damage that any weapon that can't more efficiently transfer force can do.

Doesn't explain entry vs exit wouds. Doesn't account for bodies being mostly water. Also, force is not transferred by Newton's third law.

Hence why I pointed out the miracle exception rule. These weapons can somehow do that.

Except that nowhere does he apply the rule to momentum or energy. If he did, he wouldn't be talking about physics anymore. These are the most fundamental quantities in all of physics. Furthermore, he uses energy conservation in the first example to explain Superman's jumping ability on Earth; so it would be odd to later assert energy conservation isn't a thing. Everything in the book is real world physics even when he allows certain things in order to discuss the concepts.

So if you are going to say penetration and damage are mutually exclusive, you are unraveling real world physics and emphatically not using real world physics in your explanation.

Not at all. Damage is the effect of force absorbed by, ie transferred to, the body.

Penitration is caused by striking something with more force than it can absorb.

You're using the wrong word. If what you were saying was true, water bottles and watermelons wouldn't explode when you shoot them with bullets.

[eliakon]

<Snip>

There isn't a maximum SDC damage that an attack can inflict to the body either.
If you're shot in the chest or head for 360 SDC?
Dead.

Assuming that you have <360 (PE+HP+SDC), anyway.

Because of the non-penitration. If you take 360 SDC to the head that translates to the bullet bouncing around and turning the gray matter into a tossed salad.

That is one possible house rule for what happens.
What really happens is that you run out of hit points and die. The effect of how that happens is up to the GM to make happen in a way that makes sense for their game. If the GM wants to say that the bullet bounces around in the skull then the bullet bounces around in the skull. If the GM wants to say that it was a fluke shot and the shock kills the person, then it was a fluke shot and the shock kills the person.
There is no hard and fast rule on how to implement damage, especially when we get into the fact that personal SDC in game is explicitly meant to replicate cinematic 'brushing off an injury' stuff (which is why death blow's and the like go straight to HP). So you can just say that its not something that can be brushed off.