Impenetrable Wall of Force

[Lukterran]

Ok, I guess it has been a really long time since I looked at this spell. But did "Impenetrable Wall of Force" get an errata after 2nd Edition?

The reason I ask is the insanely high PPE requirement to cast the spell and it now being a level 14 spell where before it was only a 7th level in 1st edition.

600 PPE is just ridiculous. Invisible Wall which is basically a very similar spell only costs 30 PPE to cast. I would have imagined that Impenetrable Wall of Force would have been around the 60 PPE range at maximum cost but not the 600!

A Wizard with maxed out roles for PPE (Taking out racial PPE base) would only have 392 PPE at 14th level. Which most player will never have a character this high in level anyways.

To put this into perspective Palladium Fantasy made this spell completely unplayable to use expect in scroll form or other magic items, an NPC type dragon/god/supernatural creature being able to cast it. But for a player character it is now near impossible to use. Which is completely BS.

The only other option would be to cast it at some astronomical alignment with a group of other mages or followers all pulling their power together. Which again is completely unusable for the intent of the spell. Which is only going to last for 5 melees per caster level. So I guess if you need a Impenetrable Wall you will have to ask the attacking army to please standby and wait for the next winter solstice so you can get all your wizard buddies together and cast your spell that will last about 10 minutes on the battlefield before it elapses.

That is why I asked about an errata. Because this is an obvious screw-up on Palladium Books part assigned a arbitrary number to the PPE cost of this spell.

[say652]

Can stop an unlimited volley of tactical nukes justifies the cost.

[filo_clarke]

First of all, let me get this off my chest; The name is all wrong, it is an Impenetrable CUBE of Force, not really a wall.

Second, Lukterran is right. This thing only lasts 5 melees per level, so it is clearly meant for some kind of combat situation, but at 600 PPE this is a VERY costly defense. Our hypothetical 15th level mage can maintain it for less than 20 minutes, so while it can stop an army, or a lava-flow, it only really works for a short amount of time. Couple with that the size, 20x20x20 per level, makes a 15th level version only 300x300x300 feet. It sounds big, but a cube (no text about being able to shape it into a dome or curve) that is only the length of a football field could just be navigated around by an intelligent foe in far less than 20 minutes. So while it would stop an "unlimited volley of tactical nukes" the blast radius would probably still affect them, and the fallout would kill the people on the other side.

No, I don't see the justification for this spell.

[eliakon]

The huge value of the spell is that you can have
1) scrolls
2) diabolists
The other thing is that the spell was deliberately leveled up to be higher than 8 so it can't be talisman loaded.

While every spell is not going to be perfect for every situation, that doesn't mean that every spell is that doesn't fit a specific narrow situation is bad.
This spell has no SDC value problems. That means you can use it in situations where the ability to damage/bring down the wall would be of paramount concern. Need to hold of a lava flow? No problem. This spell can be used to hold back lava, avalanches, plug tunnels so invading dwarven armies have to detour, crash ships, and yes provide blast shadows to hide in when nuking something. It isn't really to useful for a combat situation no....but there are a lot of other wall spells that you can use for those situations, use them. This spell is for the "I need a truly indestructible wall' situations. In which case accept no substitute and pony up for the name brand spell.

[Veknironth]

Well, regarding the cost to cast, there are ways. Talismans and artifacts might have such a huge amount of PPE in them. It's unlikely, but it's possible. Also, per the Errata magic section

Answer: Mages (and magical creatures) can absorb up to three times their normal limit in P.P.E. Most borrowed P.P.E. can only be held for a short period (the mage's P.E. attribute in minutes) before dissipating

So, the mage could absorb a lot from people or beings around him, a sacrifice, or a ley line to build up that much PPE. And actually, if you look at that link, I've quoted question #7 and #9 is How can a mage of any kind get enough P.P.E. to cast the really high level spells?

-Vek
"Rats have 2d4 PPE."

[Lukterran]

Yet, it completely ignores the fact that any wizard from 1st edition would easily cast this spell given the fact that they learned how to cast it.

However, it would make more since to hold it off until 7th level. But still a 7th level mage should be able to cast this spell as it is intended without relying on tricks and preloading scrolls or amulets charged weeks in advance.

Lets be honest here - this was obviously a poorly thought out decision on Palladium Books part when the converted it to 2nd edition and assigned an astronomical number to its casting cost.

And this defensive spell isn't really all that powerful justifying the ridiculously cost. Looking at similar type magics like the Power Circle of Force with is much more rare and does basically the same thing only costs 200 PPE to create.

[eliakon]

Meh, any mage could easily cast any spell in 1st edition.
Wall of Thoth was no harder than Blinding Flash

So claiming that it is 'obviously a poorly thought out decision' is only true if your conclusion is entailed in the premise.
I.e. if we assume that the spell was intended to do one thing, and that any other uses were accidental 'off label uses' which should not be considered when assigning it its PPE costs.

[MADMANMIKE]

Meh, any mage could easily cast any spell in 1st edition.
Wall of Thoth was no harder than Blinding Flash

So claiming that it is 'obviously a poorly thought out decision' is only true if your conclusion is entailed in the premise.
I.e. if we assume that the spell was intended to do one thing, and that any other uses were accidental 'off label uses' which should not be considered when assigning it its PPE costs.

This.

1st Edition is 1st Edition, 2nd Edition is not. As Vek mentioned, a mage can absorb a substantial amount of P.P.E. .. I envision that wall as perfect for buying time for a nearly defeated army to regroup.. Plenty of deaths for a mage to absorb P.P.E. from in that kind of climactic battle..

[Razorwing]

Except that a mage can not absorb magical energy in battle. Absorbing the PPE released during death requires preparation and concentration... which is why nearly all such things are done as part of a ritual (and why starting a fight usually ruins such rituals). A battle is no place to prepare or concentrate on absorbing magical energy when one is at risk of joining those who are dying. One has to be ready at the moment of death to absorb that energy... it has to start that very melee action... not the next action or even the next round... but the very moment of death... or the energy is gone.

The concentration needed to cast spells is such that any successful attack on a mage is likely to disrupt the casting... and mages can't parry or dodge while casting spells... which means they can't defend themselves and are likely to be hit... should an enemy realize what they are, what they are doing and that there is a very small opportunity to stop them. This is why mages usually aren't near the actual fighting... which also prevents them from absorbing any of the released PPE from those who die.

Lastly... the mage is usually the one who has to do the killing to absorb the energy. This is in part due to the ritualistic nature most sacrifices are made in where the mage is the one leading and thus the one who delivers the killing blow. While it is possible to have someone else deliver such a blow... especially if the sacrifice is of a fairly large size, the mage is still usually in control of such a situation... something that isn't likely possible in the middle of a battle.

That said, you may give your players special dispensation to do this sort of thing in your games... but in general, it isn't something that was intended to happen... especially by heroic (good aligned) characters.

[The Beast]

Except that a mage can not absorb magical energy in battle. Absorbing the PPE released during death requires preparation and concentration... which is why nearly all such things are done as part of a ritual (and why starting a fight usually ruins such rituals). A battle is no place to prepare or concentrate on absorbing magical energy when one is at risk of joining those who are dying. One has to be ready at the moment of death to absorb that energy... it has to start that very melee action... not the next action or even the next round... but the very moment of death... or the energy is gone.

The concentration needed to cast spells is such that any successful attack on a mage is likely to disrupt the casting... and mages can't parry or dodge while casting spells... which means they can't defend themselves and are likely to be hit... should an enemy realize what they are, what they are doing and that there is a very small opportunity to stop them. This is why mages usually aren't near the actual fighting... which also prevents them from absorbing any of the released PPE from those who die.

Lastly... the mage is usually the one who has to do the killing to absorb the energy. This is in part due to the ritualistic nature most sacrifices are made in where the mage is the one leading and thus the one who delivers the killing blow. While it is possible to have someone else deliver such a blow... especially if the sacrifice is of a fairly large size, the mage is still usually in control of such a situation... something that isn't likely possible in the middle of a battle.

That said, you may give your players special dispensation to do this sort of thing in your games... but in general, it isn't something that was intended to happen... especially by heroic (good aligned) characters.

Actually Mysteries of Magic 1 changed it up a little. You can dodge attacks from a single attacker as long as you don't have to leap or dive out of the way, and you can get hit as long as you take no more than 8 points of damage.

[Veknironth]

Well, sure it you want to take the PPE from the dead, or sacrificed, but if you have an entire army allowing the Mage to suck up PPE, or just a lot of animals, he/she is able to hold said PPE for a while and then cast the spell. It's not easy, but it's not impossible either.

-Vek
"Impenetrable wall of rules lawyering."

[kiralon]

Generally 1 person cant give more than %70 of their ppe
Several People can link hands and give %50
To get ppe from more than 10 people at the same time requires a ceremony

On average you will get 4 ppe from each person.

The range of taking it sneakily is 10ft radius per level, which would be a good indicator of how far you can drain from unless the people have linked hands and are willing their energy to you.

So 100 people would have to have a time consuming ceremony to give you enough ppe to cast the spell once and leave you depleted.
and it lasts 1 1/4 minutes per level

and a level 11, 140ppe spell makes it go away instantly with no save, not to mention dispel magic barriers.

[Veknironth]

Well, you wouldn't necessarily need a ceremony. If you assume an average mage has an average PE of 10, then that gives you 40 rounds to collect the required PPE. It doesn't fix and of the other issues with the spell, it just means the mage can accumulate the PPE, should enough be available in the environment.

-Vek
"Besides for a big battle, you want Warlocks."

[Lukterran]

Impenetrable Wall of Force isn't a spell designed in a way that it was supposed to take a great ceremony with numerous sacrifices to be able to cast. A high level mage was supposed to be able to cast it in a defensive situation. Simply a 7th level wizard should be able to cast this spell with the amount of PPE they possess as their base so it shouldn't cost any more that 140 PPE (probably much less IMO).

Honestly I don't see any logical reason to justify this insanely high PPE requirement for this spell. I can think of a couple of dozen more spells that are more powerful and effective that don't have anywhere near the PPE requirement or level restriction that IWF has.

Only say652 gave any good reason to require it to have a high casting cost. However, that only takes into consideration one scenario in Rifts. And still the spell wouldn't full negate that type of threat either.

I guess this will just be one more thing I will have to House Rule in regard to Palladium.

So I am thinking of putting its cost somewhere between 60-140 PPE. What would be a reasonable cost for IWF within that range and why?

[Axelmania]

First of all, let me get this off my chest; The name is all wrong, it is an Impenetrable CUBE of Force, not really a wall.

The level 7 spell on page 72 of 1st ed was 2-dimensional wall. The level 14 version on page 216 of 2nd ed is a 3-dimensional wall.

I can see how you could read it as a cube (just as one might read the 1st ed version as a square) and no matter what this will be the case if you cast it as a 1st level mage. The "per level" might only apply to the dimension immediately preceding it though, in which case it would take on a more wall-like shape.

Walls don't necessarily have to be longer than they are high or deep though, even if that's how we tend to think of it.

"Cube" focuses too much on the shape. Might lead people to think "I can hide inside it" or something since there are sometimes hollow cubes. But it functions as a wall so I think we should still call it that.

Of course, if the height/depth MUST scale up with level like the length, then it would be a very strange and possibly inconvenient one.

The way I always conceived it, a level 2 wizard casting it in 1st ed would have a wall 20 feet high and 40 feet long, and a level 2 wizard casting it in 2nd ed would have a wall 20 feet high, 20 feet deep/"wide" (allowing archers to stand on top, or people to drop stones) and 40 feet long.

This thing only lasts 5 melees per level, so it is clearly meant for some kind of combat situation, but at 600 PPE this is a VERY costly defense. Our hypothetical 15th level mage can maintain it for less than 20 minutes, so while it can stop an army, or a lava-flow, it only really works for a short amount of time.

This seems more like something you would prep on a scroll, so PPE cost wouldn't matter as much.

a 15th level version only 300x300x300 feet.

or 20x20x300 depending on how you read it

could just be navigated around by an intelligent foe in far less than 20 minutes.

If in the middle of a featureless plain, sure. I always figured a good tactician would use this in combination with other features, like for example to block off a bridge leading to a castle (you could have a moat, lava, etc) or the thin passage between two massive protection circles, or the hallway with very strong stone walls on either side.

I don't see the justification for this spell.

What else would you suggest someone use to stop a horde? Energy field?

2) diabolists

I would love to build a fortress out of permanence-warded impenetrable walls.
Maybe with some normal walls on the outside to disguise the light, and on the inside so you can sleep, since the shimmering brightness would probably get annoying after a while.

I can think of a couple of dozen more spells that are more powerful and effective that don't have anywhere near the PPE requirement or level restriction that IWF has.

Which? I love comparisons.

[kiralon]

If you can drain 1 person per round 40 rounds will only give about 240ppe. Humans only have 2d6 ppe.

Antimagic cloud is the best spell a mage can cast, he can still buff the party and takes away the enemies magic and usually healing.
and antimagic shell lasts an 5 minutes per level, er I mean cloud.

[Axelmania]

It's okay so long as your enemy can't withdraw and wait it out I guess.

[kiralon]

It's okay so long as your enemy can't withdraw and wait it out I guess.

generally your party is fleet feeted, invisible, and armour of ithaned or invlunerabled. The enemy need to be really fast because they cant magically teleport or fly away.

[Axelmania]

Since there's nothing about moving the cloud, they'd only have to withdraw however many hundred feet the range specifies. Your Armor of Ithan and Invulnerability will be wasted since they will be focusing on a withdraw instead of attack.

Also magic can save against the cloud on 18+ which isn't as hard as it might seem since a lot of mages get a bonus to save vs magic from their OCC.

Admittedly it's a bigger problem in PF where there aren't any Nega-Psychics, Psi Nullifiers, Sea Inquisitors, Phase Mystics or Guardians (it can't be dispelled magically, ruling out Negate Magic, but nothing preventing Psionic Negation).

Rune weapons still work so you could always use flight spells from them.

Also by the time you did all these spells on all your party, their durations will have begun counting and the first-enchanted will be running low by the time you complete it on everyone.

An Invisible Haze Mind Mage using 'teleport object' or Telekinesis Super to drop a dumbbell on top of the mage as he follows and tries to re-cast more anti-magic clouds could also cause some problems. Also might hypno-suggest the mage that it might be a good idea to cancel the anti-magic cloud since it might unbalance the ether flows of the world and cause armageddon.

[kiralon]

Off topic

Spoiler:

Since there's nothing about moving the cloud, they'd only have to withdraw however many hundred feet the range specifies. Your Armor of Ithan and Invulnerability will be wasted since they will be focusing on a withdraw instead of attack.

Also magic can save against the cloud on 18+ which isn't as hard as it might seem since a lot of mages get a bonus to save vs magic from their OCC.

Admittedly it's a bigger problem in PF where there aren't any Nega-Psychics, Psi Nullifiers, Sea Inquisitors, Phase Mystics or Guardians (it can't be dispelled magically, ruling out Negate Magic, but nothing preventing Psionic Negation).

Rune weapons still work so you could always use flight spells from them.

Also by the time you did all these spells on all your party, their durations will have begun counting and the first-enchanted will be running low by the time you complete it on everyone.

An Invisible Haze Mind Mage using 'teleport object' or Telekinesis Super to drop a dumbbell on top of the mage as he follows and tries to re-cast more anti-magic clouds could also cause some problems. Also might hypno-suggest the mage that it might be a good idea to cancel the anti-magic cloud since it might unbalance the ether flows of the world and cause armageddon.

Generally if you retreat you wont get away as im attacking and moving twice as often as you, this makes a huge difference.
In all the times I have seen it cast very very few people have saved against it, and then when they saved their magic was at half strength, also most people play that you have to roll an 18 to 20, otherwise it would be like transformation and say -x to save vs magic.
There is nothing in palladiums psionics that I have seen that dispels magic.
Yes rune weapons work, but they are rare enough to not be a problem, its like saying im invading that country there, but a meteor might fall out of the sky and kill all my troops.
If the enemy cant do see invis they are doomed, and you do the antimagic spell and then send the party off invis, fleeted and that is enough, especially if you do a magic portal and attack from behind. The invis combined with fleet feet and the inability to see the invis murders things rapidly.
But best still you get a scroll of antimagic cloud from an alchemist
load the party up with potions of fly, invis, see invis, fleet feet, imperv to fire, imperv to cold, metamorphosis and might of palladium that the alchemist has made. Make sure they are the double duration ones so they last for 20 minutes.
Read the scroll of antimagic, its the alchemists magic so anything not made by him stops functioning, but all those pots work as they are his magic.
Now murder everything in the area because it cant get away from you and you have 12-16 attacks per round, and unless that guy with the runesword gets see invis from his runesword hes going to die to, and in fact even if he can see invis he is likely going to die. You the get a runesword to pay the alchemist who could then repeat the process 30-40 more times for the value you get from runeswords.

[eliakon]

Since there's nothing about moving the cloud, they'd only have to withdraw however many hundred feet the range specifies. Your Armor of Ithan and Invulnerability will be wasted since they will be focusing on a withdraw instead of attack.

Also magic can save against the cloud on 18+ which isn't as hard as it might seem since a lot of mages get a bonus to save vs magic from their OCC.

Admittedly it's a bigger problem in PF where there aren't any Nega-Psychics, Psi Nullifiers, Sea Inquisitors, Phase Mystics or Guardians (it can't be dispelled magically, ruling out Negate Magic, but nothing preventing Psionic Negation).

Rune weapons still work so you could always use flight spells from them.

Also by the time you did all these spells on all your party, their durations will have begun counting and the first-enchanted will be running low by the time you complete it on everyone.

An Invisible Haze Mind Mage using 'teleport object' or Telekinesis Super to drop a dumbbell on top of the mage as he follows and tries to re-cast more anti-magic clouds could also cause some problems. Also might hypno-suggest the mage that it might be a good idea to cancel the anti-magic cloud since it might unbalance the ether flows of the world and cause armageddon.

Generally if you retreat you wont get away as im attacking and moving twice as often as you, this makes a huge difference.
In all the times I have seen it cast very very few people have saved against it, and then when they saved their magic was at half strength, also most people play that you have to roll an 18 to 20, otherwise it would be like transformation and say -x to save vs magic.
There is nothing in palladiums psionics that I have seen that dispels magic.
Yes rune weapons work, but they are rare enough to not be a problem, its like saying im invading that country there, but a meteor might fall out of the sky and kill all my troops.
If the enemy cant do see invis they are doomed, and you do the antimagic spell and then send the party off invis, fleeted and that is enough, especially if you do a magic portal and attack from behind. The invis combined with fleet feet and the inability to see the invis murders things rapidly.
But best still you get a scroll of antimagic cloud from an alchemist
load the party up with potions of fly, invis, see invis, fleet feet, imperv to fire, imperv to cold, metamorphosis and might of palladium that the alchemist has made. Make sure they are the double duration ones so they last for 20 minutes.
Read the scroll of antimagic, its the alchemists magic so anything not made by him stops functioning, but all those pots work as they are his magic.
Now murder everything in the area because it cant get away from you and you have 12-16 attacks per round, and unless that guy with the runesword gets see invis from his runesword hes going to die to, and in fact even if he can see invis he is likely going to die. You the get a runesword to pay the alchemist who could then repeat the process 30-40 more times for the value you get from runeswords.

Two problems here
1) it doesn't say a natural 18 so no, spell save bonuses count
2) the scroll trick? Nope. The spell is cast by the person reading the scroll. Unless the alchemist himself reads that scroll then those pots all get negated. The scroll is no more his magic than the fireball from the sword he made is.

Now it is possible that your game is one where your fine with only the PCs having huge supplies of magic items, and being the only people on the planet intelligent to use them.....but in every game I have been in what ever the party does everyone else does to. Unless your character has an IQ of 40 or something they just are not going to come up with a brand new idea that no one in 10,000 years of warfare has never thought of.
If the normal for that world is that everyone is running around with thousands of gold worth of potions, amulets and scrolls.....then expect everyone to have them.

[The Beast]

Since there's nothing about moving the cloud, they'd only have to withdraw however many hundred feet the range specifies. Your Armor of Ithan and Invulnerability will be wasted since they will be focusing on a withdraw instead of attack.

Also magic can save against the cloud on 18+ which isn't as hard as it might seem since a lot of mages get a bonus to save vs magic from their OCC.

Admittedly it's a bigger problem in PF where there aren't any Nega-Psychics, Psi Nullifiers, Sea Inquisitors, Phase Mystics or Guardians (it can't be dispelled magically, ruling out Negate Magic, but nothing preventing Psionic Negation).

Rune weapons still work so you could always use flight spells from them.

Also by the time you did all these spells on all your party, their durations will have begun counting and the first-enchanted will be running low by the time you complete it on everyone.

An Invisible Haze Mind Mage using 'teleport object' or Telekinesis Super to drop a dumbbell on top of the mage as he follows and tries to re-cast more anti-magic clouds could also cause some problems. Also might hypno-suggest the mage that it might be a good idea to cancel the anti-magic cloud since it might unbalance the ether flows of the world and cause armageddon.

Generally if you retreat you wont get away as im attacking and moving twice as often as you, this makes a huge difference.
In all the times I have seen it cast very very few people have saved against it, and then when they saved their magic was at half strength, also most people play that you have to roll an 18 to 20, otherwise it would be like transformation and say -x to save vs magic.
There is nothing in palladiums psionics that I have seen that dispels magic.
Yes rune weapons work, but they are rare enough to not be a problem, its like saying im invading that country there, but a meteor might fall out of the sky and kill all my troops.
If the enemy cant do see invis they are doomed, and you do the antimagic spell and then send the party off invis, fleeted and that is enough, especially if you do a magic portal and attack from behind. The invis combined with fleet feet and the inability to see the invis murders things rapidly.
But best still you get a scroll of antimagic cloud from an alchemist
load the party up with potions of fly, invis, see invis, fleet feet, imperv to fire, imperv to cold, metamorphosis and might of palladium that the alchemist has made. Make sure they are the double duration ones so they last for 20 minutes.
Read the scroll of antimagic, its the alchemists magic so anything not made by him stops functioning, but all those pots work as they are his magic.
Now murder everything in the area because it cant get away from you and you have 12-16 attacks per round, and unless that guy with the runesword gets see invis from his runesword hes going to die to, and in fact even if he can see invis he is likely going to die. You the get a runesword to pay the alchemist who could then repeat the process 30-40 more times for the value you get from runeswords.

Two problems here
1) it doesn't say a natural 18 so no, spell save bonuses count
2) the scroll trick? Nope. The spell is cast by the person reading the scroll. Unless the alchemist himself reads that scroll then those pots all get negated. The scroll is no more his magic than the fireball from the sword he made is.

Now it is possible that your game is one where your fine with only the PCs having huge supplies of magic items, and being the only people on the planet intelligent to use them.....but in every game I have been in what ever the party does everyone else does to. Unless your character has an IQ of 40 or something they just are not going to come up with a brand new idea that no one in 10,000 years of warfare has never thought of.
If the normal for that world is that everyone is running around with thousands of gold worth of potions, amulets and scrolls.....then expect everyone to have them.

He might be going off of the Rifts version. That version does say natural 18+ in both the BoM and RUE.

[kiralon]

hmm, off topic

Spoiler:

The saving throw doesn't say normal, it says 18-20 so it could also mean if you have +6 to save and you roll a 15 you end up with 21, and as it says 18 - 20 that would be a fail, which I would bring up if you brought up your point, which would mean there are still only 3 numbers you can save with.

So if its the person reading the scroll casting the spell then why doesn't it go off the readers lvl of spell casting ability, but with that logic if I read the scroll I pouring the potions down someone elses throat is like me casting them, still works out the same way.

and you have hit one of my main problems with palladium, the world hasn't evolved with magic in it, it has evolved like medieval Europe and the like and even though there is a history of magic, no real magic defences have been made to stop wizards, warlocks and summoners from destroying everything as it seems people only discovered what they can do yesterday. Because no, nowhere I have is seen a place get taken out by 40 priests of RA river of lava'ing everything in sight, or the elemental forces circle destroying towns, or hordes of demons/elementals etc taking over places or any of the things people have come up with here. The Capitals of the countries as written could have been easily destroyed by these means.

[eliakon]

The saving throw doesn't say normal, it says 18-20 so it could also mean if you have +6 to save and you roll a 15 you end up with 21, and as it says 18 - 20 that would be a fail, which I would bring up if you brought up your point, which would mean there are still only 3 numbers you can save with.

So if its the person reading the scroll casting the spell then why doesn't it go off the readers lvl of spell casting ability, but with that logic if I read the scroll I pouring the potions down someone elses throat is like me casting them, still works out the same way.

and you have hit one of my main problems with palladium, the world hasn't evolved with magic in it, it has evolved like medieval Europe and the like and even though there is a history of magic, no real magic defences have been made to stop wizards, warlocks and summoners from destroying everything as it seems people only discovered what they can do yesterday. Because no, nowhere I have is seen a place get taken out by 40 priests of RA river of lava'ing everything in sight, or the elemental forces circle destroying towns, or hordes of demons/elementals etc taking over places or any of the things people have come up with here. The Capitals of the countries as written could have been easily destroyed by these means.

Because it goes off with the spell level it is programed with as per scrolls.
Just because it doesn't use your spell strength doesn't mean you didn't cast it.

And yes, part of the 'deal' of playing a game is that you accept a certain suspension of disbelief.
I mean sure you can take the magic and game rules and create a brand new world from scratch that takes all of them into account for its social backgrounds, architecture, politics, ect.....
...but trust me, the result is going to be vastly alien to most players and require a LOT of detailed background material.
So instead you go with 'conceits' You say "Okay, the world is going to be basically like this...." as long as everyone plays with in that and doesn't try to break the system so that they can 'win' it works. Its when some one says "well the rules say that I can munch out and do X, Y, and Z and thus get the I Win Button +5" that problems occur because frankly that IWB+5 should be usable to stomp the PCs as well. And preemptively since the players always come up with some cute divination scheme to know what their foe is doing first.
This can be fun in certain games....but generally it quickly turns into either basically Amber or Paranoia.

[kiralon]

way off topic

Spoiler:

The saving throw doesn't say normal, it says 18-20 so it could also mean if you have +6 to save and you roll a 15 you end up with 21, and as it says 18 - 20 that would be a fail, which I would bring up if you brought up your point, which would mean there are still only 3 numbers you can save with.

So if its the person reading the scroll casting the spell then why doesn't it go off the readers lvl of spell casting ability, but with that logic if I read the scroll I pouring the potions down someone elses throat is like me casting them, still works out the same way.

and you have hit one of my main problems with palladium, the world hasn't evolved with magic in it, it has evolved like medieval Europe and the like and even though there is a history of magic, no real magic defences have been made to stop wizards, warlocks and summoners from destroying everything as it seems people only discovered what they can do yesterday. Because no, nowhere I have is seen a place get taken out by 40 priests of RA river of lava'ing everything in sight, or the elemental forces circle destroying towns, or hordes of demons/elementals etc taking over places or any of the things people have come up with here. The Capitals of the countries as written could have been easily destroyed by these means.

Because it goes off with the spell level it is programed with as per scrolls.
Just because it doesn't use your spell strength doesn't mean you didn't cast it.

And yes, part of the 'deal' of playing a game is that you accept a certain suspension of disbelief.
I mean sure you can take the magic and game rules and create a brand new world from scratch that takes all of them into account for its social backgrounds, architecture, politics, ect.....
...but trust me, the result is going to be vastly alien to most players and require a LOT of detailed background material.
So instead you go with 'conceits' You say "Okay, the world is going to be basically like this...." as long as everyone plays with in that and doesn't try to break the system so that they can 'win' it works. Its when some one says "well the rules say that I can munch out and do X, Y, and Z and thus get the I Win Button +5" that problems occur because frankly that IWB+5 should be usable to stomp the PCs as well. And preemptively since the players always come up with some cute divination scheme to know what their foe is doing first.
This can be fun in certain games....but generally it quickly turns into either basically Amber or Paranoia.

Well, the person reading the scroll didn't supply the ppe, doesn't need to have the required belief to cast a spell and doesn't need the required skill to cast a spell. That to me says he didn't cast the spell. The scroll is just a precast spell with a trigger that sets it loose and the scroll wielder just targets it, but also by that logic the person who pours the potion down your throat is the one who casts the spell, so it really doesn't matter as the person who uses the potions on people is the one that reads the scroll.

And the point that making a background that's makes sense with what you can use in the setting isn't quite right, there are a few systems out there that had the defensive magic built into the system to allow you to be able to stop or at least mitigate the effects of magic. dnd and pathfinder jump to mind pretty quick and they weren't alien. Not very many (any?) places have any protection from magic, and the semi protective magic they did have is lying dormant in bletherad.
You would thing they would have warded panic rooms or things like that but nada. I don't say the world is going to be like this, the books do, and I don't put the things in the game that let you hit the I win button, look at cloud of slumber for example. Usually games are somewhat balanced but palladium isn't, but the world setting is better. I might think that because I played palladium first but that's what I think. I would just like it if the I win buttons that the players use had some sort of errata that stopped them being I win buttons, and part of that would be if say you made a castle wall and if you used say gorgon blood in the mortar you couldn't teleport into the castle (2nd ed dnd for example) or if you did a particular combo of wards it would do the same thing. The Palladium world is missing that, and it wouldn't be that hard to do, just make a list of spells and powers and then make something that may stop or hinder it, just like the things with gorgon blood. I do believe that pretty much everything the players can do has been tried elsewhere and when, its just that the palladium world shows no evidence of it. I don't mean all the nitty gritty bits and pieces of a place, just standard things that players always come up with.

a flying, invisible, fleeted, strengthed assassin could kill pretty much any ruler in any kingdom. There is no protection from it, and that's just 3000gp worth of pots. The western empire has enough alchemists to spit out those potions.

[Axelmania]

There is nothing in palladiums psionics that I have seen that dispels magic.

Nothing directly, but it can still operate, and you can dispel it indirectly by mind-controlling the mage to drop it. Not sure if killing the mage ends the cloud or not.

Yes rune weapons work, but they are rare enough to not be a problem, its like saying im invading that country there, but a meteor might fall out of the sky and kill all my troops.

Level 11 spells are also rare. Page 247 says most alchemists won't teach ones above 8th. You're talking 1-5 hundred thousand gold (or higher) and it probably falls under the 10-30% extra for offensive spells (dispel magic barriers does) or even the 30-50% cost increase for dimensional/transformative (being able to cancel a time slip or a metamorphosis).

Admittedly, a Greater Rune Weapons is still WAY more, but in both cases we're talking about very rare things, given that a typical soldier might make only 100 gold a month.

If the enemy cant do see invis they are doomed, and you do the antimagic spell and then send the party off invis, fleeted and that is enough, especially if you do a magic portal and attack from behind. The invis combined with fleet feet and the inability to see the invis murders things rapidly.

All well and good if you can stockpile these ahead of time with talismans I guess. All quite expensive though.

If this strategy is so doable though, it would be common enough that people would have built plants to deal with it, like very good strategic withdrawal plans.

Read the scroll of antimagic, its the alchemists magic so anything not made by him stops functioning, but all those pots work as they are his magic.

What if your enemy also shopped from the same alchemist?

Now murder everything in the area because it cant get away from you

That only applies if you use carpet of adhesion and magic net, greater speed doesn't always mean you can outrun someone. Are you going to fleet-feet your horses to outrun their cavalry? Will rushing double-speed into a field of caltrops be beneficial? Or into a pike square? (assuming we had rules to reflect these strats)

the world hasn't evolved with magic in it, it has evolved like medieval Europe and the like and even though there is a history of magic, no real magic defences have been made to stop wizards, warlocks and summoners from destroying everything

One could argue that Gods are that evolution to prevent such abuse, since having faith means you have a resurrecting avenger come to help his people against such supernatural abuses.

it seems people only discovered what they can do yesterday. Because no, nowhere I have is seen a place get taken out by 40 priests of RA river of lava'ing everything in sight, or the elemental forces circle destroying towns, or hordes of demons/elementals etc taking over places or any of the things people have come up with here. The Capitals of the countries as written could have been easily destroyed by these means.

Are those capitals atheists though? Or do they have deities protecting them? Are mages plotting such abuses hesitant to act for fear of reprisal?

a flying, invisible, fleeted, strengthed assassin could kill pretty much any ruler in any kingdom. There is no protection from it, and that's just 3000gp worth of pots. The western empire has enough alchemists to spit out those potions.

What are the best examples of high-ranking ruler NPCs out there that you think this would work against?

Why would Oracle/Clairvoyance not get people ready against it?

Amulets of 'See the Invisible' will counter indefinite simple invisibility, so your strat is probably based on a "1 hit kill" Invisibility Superior?

Who's to say the king isn't using a body double or illusion or wearing invisible magical armor?

There are still ways to detect Superior-Invisible foes. You'd register as magic, there's sense of smell... and stuff like closed doors/windows will stop flying people. Then there's also wards and protection circles.

Mundane kings would be in trouble, that's why rich enough ones would get magical countermeasures.

[kiralon]

edit: off topic

Spoiler:

What are the best examples of high-ranking ruler NPCs out there that you think this would work against?
all of them except maybe Itomas

Why would Oracle/Clairvoyance not get people ready against it?
Its limitations, invisible with disguise usually means they won't see whats happening, and its only flashes.

Amulets of 'See the Invisible' will counter indefinite simple invisibility, so your strat is probably based on a "1 hit kill" Invisibility Superior?
nope, just use simple invisibility, fly into the kings room one night and kill him, not talking 1 hit kills but if you have surprise and 16 attacks and weapons and a plus to strike he cant parry you usually win in one round and your gone again.

Who's to say the king isn't using a body double or illusion or wearing invisible magical armor?Pretty much the books.

There are still ways to detect Superior-Invisible foes. You'd register as magic, there's sense of smell... and stuff like closed doors/windows will stop flying people. Then there's also wards and protection circles.Truly, but the magic defenses aren't used and that's my gripe. Doors won't stop someone who has done some checking out of what they have to get past.

Mundane kings would be in trouble, that's why rich enough ones would get magical countermeasures.
But they haven't in the books is the point im making.

Nothing directly, but it can still operate, and you can dispel it indirectly by mind-controlling the mage to drop it. Not sure if killing the mage ends the cloud or not.
That's why Itomas would have the best chance of living, not that I would put money on it.

Level 11 spells are also rare. Page 247 says most alchemists won't teach ones above 8th. You're talking 1-5 hundred thousand gold (or higher) and it probably falls under the 10-30% extra for offensive spells (dispel magic barriers does) or even the 30-50% cost increase for dimensional/transformative (being able to cancel a time slip or a metamorphosis).
Buy a scroll - page 248 Levels 10-12: 10,000-15,000 gold each; sometimes 20-50% more.

All well and good if you can stockpile these ahead of time with talismans I guess. All quite expensive though.
potions/scrolls are way cheaper and easier to get.

What if your enemy also shopped from the same alchemist?
If you have come from another country the DM has it in for ya, if you shop in the same county - bad luck does happen. try again soon

That only applies if you use carpet of adhesion and magic net, greater speed doesn't always mean you can outrun someone. Are you going to fleet-feet your horses to outrun their cavalry? Will rushing double-speed into a field of caltrops be beneficial? Or into a pike square? (assuming we had rules to reflect these strats)
That's one of the reasons id include fly, another is you can fly out of their see invis range pretty quick.

One could argue that Gods are that evolution to prevent such abuse, since having faith means you have a resurrecting avenger come to help his people against such supernatural abuses.
True but its not mentioned anywhere, and gods aren't omniscient as I have had pointed out to me a few times.

Are those capitals atheists though? Or do they have deities protecting them? Are mages plotting such abuses hesitant to act for fear of reprisal?
doesn't matter because if the deities are protecting them, they don't do much if they are. You have to be found to be reprised.
Don't get me wrong, its easy and logical to come up with defences against these, its just annoying the books don't have them.

[Lukterran]

Guys I don't mind having a conversation about whatever you want to talk about. However, we are 12 posts in away from the focus and theme of this thread and we have gotten off track. If you want to continue the sidetrack discussion would you mind moving it to a new thread?

[kiralon]

oops, sorry

[Smlawrence8]

The excessive cost might actually be worth it in an attack. If you were to use this offensively during large group combat you could cut off half of the attacking forces and butcher the first half. In that case the high PPE cost would mean you would want to drop it as fast as you could.

[kiralon]

The excessive cost might actually be worth it in an attack. If you were to use this offensively during large group combat you could cut off half of the attacking forces and butcher the first half. In that case the high PPE cost would mean you would want to drop it as fast as you could.

once paid its paid, it not an ongoing cost so you once paid for id like it to stay up as long as possible, especially for 600 ppe.