Knighthood: OCC vs social construct..

[glitterboy2098]

i'm working on a character idea for an upcoming PFRPG game, and i find myself in a quandary.. i've been told that the race i've picked (the Wolfen) don't really do mounted warrior stuff much, and looking at the OCC's, the mercenary warrior fits the skills and such i want better than the Knight OCC. so far so good right? my problem stems from the fact that, while i'm not wanting to make an armored cavalry type.. i really enjoy depictions of pre-chivalric style of knighthood*, and would love to have my character part of such a 'knightly' organization.

*a popular media example, and probably one of the better depictions i've seen in regards to historical accuracy, is the styles of knights/men at arms seen in the film kingdom of heaven, especially the characters of Balian and Godfrey as a sort of idealized form. at the time, knighthood was less tied to gear, training, or nobility (many knights in fact were landless, using a mishmash of gear, and had little special training), and were defined more by their oaths and allegiances.. and any knight could make a new knight in the service of their lord.

there was also orders of knights that were not directly tied to any given nobility or lords, like the early Templars, and Hospitaliers (or the Teutonic knights), which while including nobility in their ranks.. held their main oaths and allegiance to what was basically an organization tied to no particular nation/king/lord.

as some one who hasn't really done PFRPG before (and who will be playing under a GM with not much more experience either), could you get away with the idea of knighthood as a more social construct in that regard, not reliant on being a specific OCC?

and if so, could you actually get a wolfen 'knighthood' order of such style? (probably one comparable to the nationless orders mentioned above..)

[Bill]

Sounds like a conversation to have with the GM. I wouldn't have a problem with it. I might have you write up your knightly oath and possibly tie your character to one of the religions though.

[glitterboy2098]

well, i want to get some research in on the idea in general first before i try to make my case to the GM. plus i'd like to have the character be viable for pickup games and such later on.

[Warmaster40k]

The key problem Wolfen have, is that they are just too big for a horse. Its too bad theres no like large animals that dwell in the northern wilderness that a wolfen can get on or some sort of large dinosaur

[Cybermancer]

I would look at similar constructs in the Roman Empire or even Roman Republic. The Wolfen Empire has many of the same trappings of both.

Depending on what you want exactly the character could be similar to the Praetorian Guard or they could simply be a Centurion career soldier.

Rome did have Equestrians who were often taken from the nobility as well. But the Wolfen and horseback riding don't really go hand in hand. But as infantry, they would be hell on wheels. Wolfen could probably pull off charioteers though.

[Bill]

The key problem Wolfen have, is that they are just too big for a horse. Its too bad theres no like large animals that dwell in the northern wilderness that a wolfen can get on or some sort of large dinosaur

It's not like the book is comprehensive in its survey of indigenous wildlife. There could be something like a megacerops or megaloceros that a rare unit of wolfen have trained as war mounts. The Dark Step or Ice Eyes seem like probable tribes to do it. Or, if you could manage to talk the GM into it, an Ursa Rex on the back of a kodiak or polar bear.

[Warmaster40k]

The key problem Wolfen have, is that they are just too big for a horse. Its too bad theres no like large animals that dwell in the northern wilderness that a wolfen can get on or some sort of large dinosaur

It's not like the book is comprehensive in its survey of indigenous wildlife. There could be something like a megacerops or megaloceros that a rare unit of wolfen have trained as war mounts. The Dark Step or Ice Eyes seem like probable tribes to do it. Or, if you could manage to talk the GM into it, an Ursa Rex on the back of a kodiak or polar bear.

We really need the sarcasm punctuation. There are in fact several varieties for mounts available for them wolfen, or you can look in the wolfen empire book as there should be a knight equivalent.

[glitterboy2098]

one of my problems is the GM has specified mainbook only, because he doesn't have any others.

[kiralon]

Oboru are likely strong and enduring enough to mount smaller wolfen. 6ft at the shoulder and 8ft long, other than that Id try a bear as the oboru is in the northern hinterlands book. If the gm is playing in a particular area id recommend getting the book for that area

[Warmaster40k]

one of my problems is the GM has specified mainbook only, because he doesn't have any others.

Well in that case alternate options for mounts are in the monsters and animals book.

[zyanitevp]

It also mentions in the Northern Wilderness book that the Wolfen are starting to train Gryphons as mounts.

[URLeader Hobbes]

I think the larger issue is that the Wolfen Empire really isn't designed to be like the feudal knights of Europe. It's more akin to the Roman Empire and it's structure seems to support that. You might wanna think about moving them more towards being like the Legionnaires from the Western Empire as opposed to any sort of mounted knight.

Or if you really wanna just keep the OCC for other reasons you might wanna modify it with things like forced march, in lieu of horsemanship.

[glitterboy2098]

uh.. guys.. this is not me asking for mount ideas or how to use the knight OCC with wolfen..

i'm asking about expanding the concept of a knight beyond the OCC (making it a social construct.. "a social mechanism, phenomenon, or category created and developed by society; a perception of an individual, group, or idea that is 'constructed' through cultural or social practice") and applying it to other OCC's. albeit by adopting elements of knighthood prior to chivalry, when knights were less tied to the nobility, and focused more on fighting, and less on writing poetry about fighting.

I think the larger issue is that the Wolfen Empire really isn't designed to be like the feudal knights of Europe. It's more akin to the Roman Empire and it's structure seems to support that. You might wanna think about moving them more towards being like the Legionnaires from the Western Empire as opposed to any sort of mounted knight.

actually from everything i've been able to read so far in borrowed books and stuff.. the wolfen society seems to be very viking/anglo-saxon/germanic.. the roman stuff reads like a pasted on veneer of foreign ideas.. i mean, they're even using latin terms when latin does not exist as a native language in the setting! which suggests the roman stuff is not something they came up with themselves, but adopted from some other source. (or rather, a poorly meshed effort to expand on their society by a writer, but you can make lemonade from lemons in this case)

[Bill]

The Rifts Conversion BBook speculates that the cultural similarities between ancient Rome and the wolfen nation of Palladium might be the result of dimensional travel and that they've only gotten organized in the last three generations. The Roman-Wolfen connection is weird though and I agree that the tribal structure/barbarism lends itself to a Germanic interpretion. I don't think it's necessary to go that far from the Roman theme to do the character that you want to play though. Equites, the Roman cavalry, were originally aristocrats, patricians, with all of the traditions and obligations that go along with that. They were elite horsemen, and pretty knightly in their own way. There's no reason I can see for why your character couldn't adopt a chivalric code, swear some oaths, and ride off to save the holy land from the infidels.

[glitterboy2098]

Honestly, a german-roman mix begs for using the eastern empire as a model, not the western. The eastern empire survived longer and adopted Germanic/Hunnish ideas, weapons, armor, and tactics into the roman army model ( along with a fair bit of Persian) , and by the 11th century (the rough average tech level of pfrpg, as best as I can figure) even had units of vikings fighting for them, the varangian guard (which adopted eastern empire germano-roman stuff into their Norse fighting styles and gear)

But people always forget the eastern empire

alternately, if you want to preserve the latin element and have a western empire connection.. don't look at the legions as they were in the early empire (from 27BC to AD200)but rather as they were nearer the fall of the western empire, from AD300 to AD400.. when most of the 'legions' were non-latin troops from the various settled regions and allies, largely germanic and hunnish, using roman takes on germanic style gear, organized roman style and then augmented further by auxilaries/mercenaries drawn directly from various subjugated peoples.

and one of the reasons i looked at early medieval knighthood for the wolfen is because the knight OCC is very much a late medieval knight concept, with it's focus on the code of chivarly, horsemanship, the use of the lance, and heavy armor..

chivalry originated after long exposure to the arabs in the crusader kingdoms (Islam had a very civilizing effect on the european barbarians), and didn't catch on till about the 12th century. it didn't become a widespread idea of what a knight should be until almost the 15th century.. which was also around the time people stopped following it. (this is why we equate king arthur to it.. the most well known version of the Arthur mythos was written by a 16th century knight who became fixated on the idea of chivalry.. this is also why the common depiction of king Arthur stuff uses 15th and 16th century weapons, armor, and social elements.. even though the stories are set in the 6th to 9th centuries otherwise. the guy updated the old stories to styles of warfare his readers would understand)

the lance didn't become viable until after the 7th century, when the stirrip became wider known in europe.. and didn't become a major part of knighthood until almost the 10th century, when saddle technology had developed enough to support it's effective use. prior to the stirrup, and for a long time after wards, a horseman's main weapon was either a long stabbing spear held in an overhead fashion (which was most common before the stirrup).. or a long stabbing sword used from horseback. maces similar club weapons were also common. not that the eastern empire adopted lancers faster than the west did.. the persians picked them up first, but both the persian and eastern empire cataphracts/lancers were primarily mounted bowman.. lance charges were used more as a 'finishing move' after an extended bow engagement. because after that initial charge they'd be mixed up in the enemy force, and the lance becomes useless and they had to go to swords.

heavy armor didn't become a big part of a knights thing until about the 10th century as well. and plate armor? thats a 14th to 16th century thing. prior to stirrips armor was usually rather light (still heavier than foot troops though) due to issues of balance on horseback. afterwards it was an issue of how much weight the horse and saddle could support. heavy armor made cavalry way too slow on horseback for a long time before horse breeding caught up.

[AzathothXy]

Arbolytes are also present in the north. They can carry about 250 pounds, so maybe smaller wolfens.

[eliakon]

There is mention in some places about non-knights joining the knightly orders. I can not recall where (Though I believe it is in Eastern Kingdoms, it may be the Rifter Article on knights, or someplace else entirely). Usually this is done to allow nobles to join so that, for instance the King can be a member of the royal knights. However there is, in principle, no reason that such could not be extended en-mass to the point of having a 'knightly order' that was mostly non knight OCCs. They would still be socially knights, with all the social privilages of a knight. Just like a king or prince is a noble regardless of their actual OCC. But they would not have all the knightly training, the horsemanship, the lance, etc.

[smashed]

I definitely prefer moving the concept of knighthood as a social construct. I feel it fits better in fantasy setting to have it extended beyond that of a cavalry unit.

I would consider 99% of knights to belong to such an organization, but open it up to other OCCs to joining one, or even being at the center of one.

If I were implementing it my game I would simply design an knighthood society with the code of chivalry along with other basic rules, such as race, OCC, skill requirements, and other tenets they might have to follow, who they are loyal to, etc. To make things interesting I'd probably design them to give small bonus such as an extra skill, a percent bonus to a group of skills, or a stat bonus, along with some determental effect.

Edit: Rifter 15 has Orders for Knights of the Eastern Territory. Using them as a template might not be a bad idea.

[glitterboy2098]

reading through what i could, i came up with this..

he (the Wolfen character) served as a mercenary in the western empire, but when the noble who had hired the unit he was with wound up on the wrong end of a power struggle, the unit helped the nobleman flee to the wolfen empire, where a deal was struck.. the nobleman helps provide some sort of knowledge (not sure what.. maybe organizing espionage?) in exchange for land and title in the wolfen empire.. the mercenary unit becomes the core of a warrior's order set up as the 'house troops' for said nobleman's lands. they count as auxilaries as far as the wolfen legion goes, but they have themselves set up as a knight type organization, and individual members are sometimes sent out on various errands..

the Gm said that might be workable.

[zyanitevp]

reading through what i could, i came up with this..

he (the Wolfen character) served as a mercenary in the western empire, but when the noble who had hired the unit he was with wound up on the wrong end of a power struggle, the unit helped the nobleman flee to the wolfen empire, where a deal was struck.. the nobleman helps provide some sort of knowledge (not sure what.. maybe organizing espionage?) in exchange for land and title in the wolfen empire.. the mercenary unit becomes the core of a warrior's order set up as the 'house troops' for said nobleman's lands. they count as auxilaries as far as the wolfen legion goes, but they have themselves set up as a knight type organization, and individual members are sometimes sent out on various errands..

the Gm said that might be workable.

I have always felt by giving credence to any class being part of the Knight OCC by listing class and wealth levels in the random chart Palladium made it more of a social construct, so I agree completely with the angle you are going with.

[Library Ogre]

So, a few thoughts:

1) I don't picture wolfen as being mounted at pretty much any time; they've got tails that will interfere with comfortable sitting on a saddle, and they're a lot larger than most mounts can carry. Their native cavalry are likely to be either in chariots or in howdahs on really big beasts (i.e. mammoths). Like the Romans, most of their cavalry comes from subject peoples (the centaurs, the humans of Havea).

2) Consider other options for pseudo-Knightly orders. Depending on your tribe, you might lean more Nordic than Roman; consider the Jomsvikings as a possible model of a warrior brotherhood; you might also look at the Fianna of Fionn mac Cumhaill. You might also go with something akin to Charlemagne's Paladins, though without the mounted component.

Palladium has an odd mixture of classes and ideas. I would say that having your character belong to a knightly order, without being the Knight OCC, is perfectly reasonable.

[glitterboy2098]

i didn't know of those Jomsvikings ... which bugs me because my master's in history had a focus on northern europe in that period.

but that one looks like it might be a fun one to use as a base, then i can add in some elements from the other groups i've looked at.

[Library Ogre]

i didn't know of those Jomsvikings ... which bugs me because my master's in history had a focus on northern europe in that period.

but that one looks like it might be a fun one to use as a base, then i can add in some elements from the other groups i've looked at.

There's a lot of these kinds of groups in legendry; groups of warriors who only the superlative could belong to.

[Vrykolas2k]

The key problem Wolfen have, is that they are just too big for a horse. Its too bad theres no like large animals that dwell in the northern wilderness that a wolfen can get on or some sort of large dinosaur

Depends on the horse.

[Library Ogre]

7-9' tall is gonna be tough on any horse, Vry. And that says nothing of their tails...

[glitterboy2098]

looking over the wolfen race entry, knights are specifically mentioned one of the OCC's they can do, so evidently KS does see them with knights.

also, WIP group as an outgrowth of this discussion:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=146988

[Vrykolas2k]

7-9' tall is gonna be tough on any horse, Vry. And that says nothing of their tails...

I'm 6'2", and ride horses with no problem... a percheron or shire tops me at the withers, which is about the same, size-comparison-wise. In fact, try looking up Andre the Giant and his horses sometime.
As for the tails, nae a problem... the digitigrade legs wolfen have would assist in forward sitting like you're supposed to. And it can go to the side for the rear cantle a war-saddle would have when it comes to the impact of the lance on a foe.

[Vrykolas2k]

i didn't know of those Jomsvikings ... which bugs me because my master's in history had a focus on northern europe in that period.

but that one looks like it might be a fun one to use as a base, then i can add in some elements from the other groups i've looked at.

The Jomsvikings were based in Jomsfjord, which later expanded to become Normandy ( one of those pay-offs the French did to try and get the Norsemen to leave Paris alone... like that ever works). They were eventually taken out, but they definately didn't go fast or easy.

[glitterboy2098]

actually, after them being pointed out to me, i went on a research binge to find out more. they weren't in Normandy.. they were on the southern shore of the Baltic, the area of modern Pomerania. and their town was Jomsborg.

Normandy was settled by vikings under Hrólfr "the Walker", son of Rognvald Eysteinsson. Hrolfr was also known as Rollo (the latin form of the name) and was later baptized Robert the 1st, Duke of Normandy. Normandy was given to 'rollo's' horde after they attacked Paris and besieged Chartres. Normandy was where they'd originally landed, so it was given to them by king Charles III as part of the treaty that ended the conflict. (Rollo had been defeated by Frankish forces not long before, and part of the treaty was the men under Rollo who settled there would help defend the Frankish lands from further viking attack)

[Vrykolas2k]

actually, after them being pointed out to me, i went on a research binge to find out more. they weren't in Normandy.. they were on the southern shore of the Baltic, the area of modern Pomerania. and their town was Jomsborg.

Normandy was settled by vikings under Hrólfr "the Walker", son of Rognvald Eysteinsson. Hrolfr was also known as Rollo (the latin form of the name) and was later baptized Robert the 1st, Duke of Normandy. Normandy was given to 'rollo's' horde after they attacked Paris and besieged Chartres. Normandy was where they'd originally landed, so it was given to them by king Charles III as part of the treaty that ended the conflict. (Rollo had been defeated by Frankish forces not long before, and part of the treaty was the men under Rollo who settled there would help defend the Frankish lands from further viking attack)

Yep, got 'em confused.
Then again, going on memory and not google lol.
Been a while since I read the Saga of the Jomsvikings.

[glitterboy2098]

just found something that makes wolfen on horses trickier.. according to monsters and animals, a warhorse can carry 450 lbs. which is great for a human in armor. most of the other types of horses listed have similar carry capacity. (between 450 to 500 lbs)

but a wolfen weight 250 to 500 lbs.. so the average wolfen is going to come pretty close to the max a horse can handle on their own, much less in heavy armor and weapons.

and there are no draft breeds in PFRPG, going by the book... as far as i can tell. the 'work horse' comes close in size however.
the work horse lacks a carry capacity though.. and i don;t think that's an oversight.

turns out draft horses and the work breeds they came from don't have the bone development to support heavy weights on their backs.. they were bred specifically to pull, not to carry. (pulling causes different forms of skeletal stress than carrying a rider or cargo on their back, and horses that size are physically ill suited to carrying by the trade off that let them get that big)

so with the average wolfen going to be about 375 to 400 lbs, then add 45+ lbs of armor (scale mail), 12lbs of weapon (lance and long sword), ~10 lbs of shield (going by real world #'s, since i could not find book ones).. that's 442 to 467 lbs.. and that does not count barding, additional personal weapons, etc.. which can easily add another 100+ lbs.
it also assumes that wolfen arms and armor is not heavier than human, which given that wolfen use giant sized weapons (and are a good 20-50% bigger than a human) seems unlikely