A Question about Psi-Swords

[Rimmerdal]

I'd guess 2 by strict rules. a good GM and high-powered game 4 might be allowed. Another option I'd give is allow 2 shields for the 2 spare hands.

[Killer Cyborg]

At level 3 "A Cyber-Knight can create a second psi-sword - one for each hand." Is it possible to have more then 2 Psi-Swords if you are a R.C.C. with more then 2 hands like the Spinne (WB30) or can use your feet as hands like the M'Raghiile (WB30). If so can you summon as many as you want at lvl 3? or gain the ability to summon an additional Psi-Weapon every 2 lvls (3,5,7,9, ect...)

Certain races can, at least.
Mechanoids, for example. And Vampire Intelligences.

Although, those are the Mind Melter style Psi-Swords, not the CK versions, and IIRC it takes one use of the power per sword created.

[rat_bastard]

The answer appears to be: GM Fiat, I will point out that two extra hands mans you can have shields or throw or wield real swords. All awesome options.

[drewkitty ~..~]

At level 3 "A Cyber-Knight can create a second psi-sword - one for each hand." Is it possible to have more then 2 Psi-Swords if you are a R.C.C. with more then 2 hands like the Spinne (WB30) or can use your feet as hands like the M'Raghiile (WB30). If so can you summon as many as you want at lvl 3? or gain the ability to summon an additional Psi-Weapon every 2 lvls (3,5,7,9, ect...)

If the Race has two hands then a RCC for that race that allows for the char creating two psi-swords, and that char has That RCC, then yes your char could make two Psi-Swords.

If your char is of a psioncly able race with two hands, and your char is a cyber-knight, then yes, your char would be able to make 2 PS's at L3.

If you char is of a Race with more then two limbs that the digits at the ends are hand like, and a C-K then @ level 3 your char can make 2 PS's.

Answering the question "If my char has more then one pair of arms, can my C-K at higher levels then 3 make more then just two PS's?"

The text does not cover said situation. Your GM will have to make up house rules for that situation if he/she will allow C-K's of more then just one pair of arm like limbs to make more then just 2 PS's.

[kaid]

I honestly would not have a problem with it the normal cyber knight psi swords are not that powerful damage wise and even with the multiple arms you are at best attacking with only two at once anyway and there would be nothing saying you could not swap hands on the fly for which have the psi swords so really does not cause much change in combat or the damage the knight is doing.

[Crow Splat]

I'd just allow you to have one psi-sword for each of your levels (up to the number of arms that can wield them, of course). This stays true to only having one sword at level 1 and two swords at level 2. It's simple and it scales. I can't remember if Cyberknights have to take an action to spawn a sword, but I'd allow them to spawn all of their psi-swords and shields as a single action by a certain level. Probably level four or something.

A regular psi-sword with no special shape or color is free. As in no action required. Given that and the fact that they aren't all that powerful without doing some serious min making, I would let you have one in each hand.

[Tor]

There was actually that Rahu-Man CyberKnight who was a general in the NGR decades ago, before its anti-D-bee policies ramped up, we should ask Rasheen.

at lvl 3 with 4 swords it would be a total or 8d6 with 4 weapons when you could do more with vibro katanas

Paired WP doesn't allow you to attack with 4 weapons at once. That's a special ability I've only seen in Xiticix Invasion. Perhaps those enhanced-Rahu Jeridu folk in Palladium also have it?

A regular psi-sword with no special shape or color is free. As in no action required.

Well, unless you go for the Nightbane or South America versions, which only take 1 action.

[kaid]

Paired weapons allows you to attack with a pair of weapons. The top arms can be used as a pair and the bottom can be used as a pair but to attack with all four is not possible each pair takes a melee attack. This is mentioned in a fair amount of places with four armed borgs/lyn sarial and a few other four armed critters.

So really letting a rahu man use 4 psi swords is not much of a big deal balance wise because only two of them are ever in play at once for damage or blocking.

[Prysus]

At level 3 "A Cyber-Knight can create a second psi-sword - one for each hand." Is it possible to have more then 2 Psi-Swords if you are a R.C.C. with more then 2 hands like the Spinne (WB30) or can use your feet as hands like the M'Raghiile (WB30). If so can you summon as many as you want at lvl 3? or gain the ability to summon an additional Psi-Weapon every 2 lvls (3,5,7,9, ect...)

Greetings and Salutations. As others have said, it's up to the G.M. As an individual, at Level 3 (when you can make 2), I'd allow you just to make 4 of them. I'm already letting you play a four armed character (that most likely has Supernatural P.S.), more than likely the 4 psi-swords is a non-factor at that point.

-----

Paired weapons allows you to attack with a pair of weapons. The top arms can be used as a pair and the bottom can be used as a pair but to attack with all four is not possible each pair takes a melee attack. This is mentioned in a fair amount of places with four armed borgs/lyn sarial and a few other four armed critters.

So really letting a rahu man use 4 psi swords is not much of a big deal balance wise because only two of them are ever in play at once for damage or blocking.

Paired WP doesn't allow you to attack with 4 weapons at once. That's a special ability I've only seen in Xiticix Invasion. Perhaps those enhanced-Rahu Jeridu folk in Palladium also have it?

Look at RUE, page 327 (second column, last paragraph of the "W.P. Paired Weapons" write-up).

Four-armed characters only need to take W.P. Paired Weapons once, not once for each pair of arms.

While it doesn't outright state with crystal clear wording, I'd say the wording present definitely indicates that you can use all four at the same time. If they wanted to say that you couldn't use them all, the wording should be very different (and more likely included with the comments that follow instead of before it). For me, the wording and placement makes its meaning clear. However, if arguing a stricly RAW, there's room to argue both sides.

Also, I don't see any clarification in the Lyn-Srial write-up stating that they cannot use their four arms at the same time (I'm curious where this is mentioned?). I also read the Rahu-Men write-up, and didn't see anything that specified in there one way or the other either. If I'm missing something, let me know. Normally a new book tends to overule an older book (or the older book mentions specific exceptions), but I like to have all my facts before making a decision.

There was actually that Rahu-Man CyberKnight who was a general in the NGR decades ago, before its anti-D-bee policies ramped up, we should ask Rasheen.

General Rasheen is still in the NGR (can be found in Rifts Conversion Book One, Revised as well as Triax 2, which advanced the original Triax book timeline). Of course, since he has one bionic arm, we don't know if he can even form one psi-sword let alone multiple. Since we don't know when his arm was replaced, we don't know if he was even high enough level to form 2 (let alone potentially more).

Well, unless you go for the Nightbane or South America versions, which only take 1 action.

I believe he was referring to the "regular" Cyber-Knight sword, which costs no action. A regular (Super Psi) takes both time (15 seconds) and I.S.P. The ones you reference (taking one action) would be further variations.

That's all for now. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[kaid]

Yes you only need to take paired weapons once if you are a four armed critter or a borg. But if you look at the description of the four armed cyborg in new west that specifically talks about this each set of arms works as one pair. To use all four weapons requires two attacks one for each pair of weapons.

In theory as a GM you could let them use all four like a power attack but it still winds up eating up two attacks so you are not gaining a whole heck of a lot. For flavor once they get high enough for the pair I say go for it but you won't be gaining that much for it.

[Prysus]

Yes you only need to take paired weapons once if you are a four armed critter or a borg. But if you look at the description of the four armed cyborg in new west that specifically talks about this each set of arms works as one pair. To use all four weapons requires two attacks one for each pair of weapons.

In theory as a GM you could let them use all four like a power attack but it still winds up eating up two attacks so you are not gaining a whole heck of a lot. For flavor once they get high enough for the pair I say go for it but you won't be gaining that much for it.

Greetings and Salutations. Interesting. I checked out the passage in New West with the 4 armed 'borg. There is an advantage to be had there (depending on which ruleset you use). Note: I have no personal stake in this or how anyone else runs their games, just looking at the game rules.

"Super Slinger" Cyborg (New West, page 191): It mentions firing all four weapons at once, and firing all four will count as two attacks. So what's the advantage? I think the intent here (and I'm making the best educated guess I can, though I can't prove it with cold hard facts) is that typically when an action costs 2 actions, it happens on the second action (at least, a couple mention this, and we can only try to extrapolate from there the best we can). So if this is the rule, then being able to take 2 actions simultaneously is useful (instead of taking two whole turns, you're taking 2 actions in one turn). Note: The extra set of arms is also noted to give the character an extra attack per melee.

Jeridu (Land of the Damned Book One, page 70): These guys are mentioned to be able to use all six arms simultaneously, and being able to attack with all six "like he can control three sets of paired weapons at once." There's no mention of it costing extra actions. They also gain two extra actions at level one, and a four extra (2+2) at level four.

The Super Slinger seems to suggest one method, while the Jeridu seems to suggest a different one. Of course both could be noted exceptions with the real rule being something else all together. Rahu-Men and Lyn-Srial seem to say nothing all. Of course, since we're in the Rifts forum, I'm inclined to side with the Rifts ruling on the matter (though Jeridu may be in a Rifts Conversion Book?), at least without further evidence.

Personal Note: I happen to like the Rifts New West stance on the matter. This still gives the 4 armed character an advantage (using 2 actions at once for more damage fast!) and scary, but still makes the situation more tactical. You can pound on the enemy really fast with all your attacks, but if the opponent survives you leave yourself open and won't be able to run or dodge until next round. As such you have to evaluate each situation and decide upon the best course of action. This is, of course, my initial impression and I could be missing something more (I did just barely learn of this rule variation right now).

Anyways, that's all for now. If anyone knows of any other rulings (in the books) on the matter, I'm interested to hear them. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[kaid]

Yes like a power attack potentially you could skip this rounds attack and risk being intrupted and then next round you attack with all four. But the boost is minor because you could have done the same damage total by attacking each round and not risk being interrupted. So there is potentially a reason to do it but again you are gaining very little for doing it.

[Alrik Vas]

Doesn't splitting psi-swords cut the damage depending on how many you generate anyway?

[kaid]

Doesn't splitting psi-swords cut the damage depending on how many you generate anyway?

No once you hit I think level three you can at least make a second one both as powerful as the others. It is to make use of the innate paired weapons gain cyber knights get. The big question is more than two arms and for that its a GM call but in the end it is by no means overpowering or unbalancing any boost from it is pretty minor at best so no real reason to not allow it.

[Alrik Vas]

You think. I recall it different. Can anyone with access to RUE at the moment give us an answer?

Though i agree that overall the power increase it would bring isn't overboard, plus what's the point of having four arms if you can't? pfft.

[Slight001]

There is nothing I can find that indicates that a cyber-knight or a master class psionic would need to split the damage of their psi-sword in order to duel wield.

[Tor]

Look at RUE, page 327 (second column, last paragraph of the "W.P. Paired Weapons" write-up).

Four-armed characters only need to take W.P. Paired Weapons once, not once for each pair of arms.

While it doesn't outright state with crystal clear wording, I'd say the wording present definitely indicates that you can use all four at the same time. If they wanted to say that you couldn't use them all, the wording should be very different (and more likely included with the comments that follow instead of before it). For me, the wording and placement makes its meaning clear. However, if arguing a stricly RAW, there's room to argue both sides.

There's no room for both sides, 'pair' means 2. All this means is that 4-armed guys can take 'Paired Swords' once and be able to do paired techniques with their top ones and bottom ones, and possibly both right or both left, or diagonals, a lot of intermixing possible. 'Pair' doesn't mean 'quadruple attack'. Xiticix Invasion made it very clear that their ability is due not just to their Paired WP skill, but also their insectoid brain and senses, it's a special RCC ability introduced as part of the mega melee beefup they got.

General Rasheen is still in the NGR (can be found in Rifts Conversion Book One, Revised as well as Triax 2, which advanced the original Triax book timeline). Of course, since he has one bionic arm, we don't know if he can even form one psi-sword let alone multiple.

Dang, I could peg the CB1revised inclusion as a possible oversight but if he's in Triax 2... honestly I'm sick of Robots but I would buy the book solely for more about that guy. Confused as heck how he coexists with their CS-like tendencies against D-Bees, what with him being a rather extreme one compared to elves/dwarves who don't get acceptance.

I'm not sure if a bionic arm would disable psionics enough or prevent you from making a psi-sword in the hand. I should check Sot4, I'm sure there's a bionic-knight somewhere in there... p64-65 the 'Executioner' has partial bionics yet can create his psi-axe. The damage of the axe is not given so I can't estimate his level based on that. It doesn't mention if he can make dual blades, nor his level. He's only 'thought' to be moderate/7-8, for all we know he's level 2.

[Slight001]

Sir Trey Risharde (WB28, pg 153-156) a partial bionic cyber-knight who is noted as suffering penalties to his powers due to his partial conversion.

[Rimmerdal]

Look at RUE, page 327 (second column, last paragraph of the "W.P. Paired Weapons" write-up).

Four-armed characters only need to take W.P. Paired Weapons once, not once for each pair of arms.

While it doesn't outright state with crystal clear wording, I'd say the wording present definitely indicates that you can use all four at the same time. If they wanted to say that you couldn't use them all, the wording should be very different (and more likely included with the comments that follow instead of before it). For me, the wording and placement makes its meaning clear. However, if arguing a stricly RAW, there's room to argue both sides.

There's no room for both sides, 'pair' means 2. All this means is that 4-armed guys can take 'Paired Swords' once and be able to do paired techniques with their top ones and bottom ones, and possibly both right or both left, or diagonals, a lot of intermixing possible. 'Pair' doesn't mean 'quadruple attack'. Xiticix Invasion made it very clear that their ability is due not just to their Paired WP skill, but also their insectoid brain and senses, it's a special RCC ability introduced as part of the mega melee beefup they got.

General Rasheen is still in the NGR (can be found in Rifts Conversion Book One, Revised as well as Triax 2, which advanced the original Triax book timeline). Of course, since he has one bionic arm, we don't know if he can even form one psi-sword let alone multiple.

Dang, I could peg the CB1revised inclusion as a possible oversight but if he's in Triax 2... honestly I'm sick of Robots but I would buy the book solely for more about that guy. Confused as heck how he coexists with their CS-like tendencies against D-Bees, what with him being a rather extreme one compared to elves/dwarves who don't get acceptance.

I'm not sure if a bionic arm would disable psionics enough or prevent you from making a psi-sword in the hand. I should check Sot4, I'm sure there's a bionic-knight somewhere in there... p64-65 the 'Executioner' has partial bionics yet can create his psi-axe. The damage of the axe is not given so I can't estimate his level based on that. It doesn't mention if he can make dual blades, nor his level. He's only 'thought' to be moderate/7-8, for all we know he's level 2.

I would presume any race with four arms would also get this since there brain is wired for four arms. It would seem to make sense.

[Tor]

Sir Trey Risharde (WB28, pg 153-156) a partial bionic cyber-knight who is noted as suffering penalties to his powers due to his partial conversion.

Interesting. Regarding Sot4'p64-65's 'Executioner' in relation to this I can take 2 approaches here.

1. They neglected to mention the penalties for him, and we should apply the same penalties that Trey suffers.
2. Executioner's 'partial bionics' are 'more partial' than Trey's. I'm thinking headhunter compared to partial conversion cyborg, possibly.

So basically I'm thinking Executioner might just be Luke Skywalker while Trey is Darth Vader, in terms of replacement amounts?

It's a confusing issue too because of the cyber-armor and how it comes to life sometimes for cyber-knights.

I would presume any race with four arms would also get this since there brain is wired for four arms. It would seem to make sense.

Being wired for 4 arms doesn't mean you're wired to throw all 4 at once. This is explicitly an advanced thing per Xiticix Invasion, so unless indicated like with their Hunters/Warriors we should assume that nobody with 4 or 6 arms can throw more than 2 hits per attack.

[Slight001]

Sir Trey Risharde (WB28, pg 153-156) a partial bionic cyber-knight who is noted as suffering penalties to his powers due to his partial conversion.

Interesting. Regarding Sot4'p64-65's 'Executioner' in relation to this I can take 2 approaches here.

1. They neglected to mention the penalties for him, and we should apply the same penalties that Trey suffers.
2. Executioner's 'partial bionics' are 'more partial' than Trey's. I'm thinking headhunter compared to partial conversion cyborg, possibly.

So basically I'm thinking Executioner might just be Luke Skywalker while Trey is Darth Vader, in terms of replacement amounts?

It's a confusing issue too because of the cyber-armor and how it comes to life sometimes for cyber-knights.

I would presume any race with four arms would also get this since there brain is wired for four arms. It would seem to make sense.

Being wired for 4 arms doesn't mean you're wired to throw all 4 at once. This is explicitly an advanced thing per Xiticix Invasion, so unless indicated like with their Hunters/Warriors we should assume that nobody with 4 or 6 arms can throw more than 2 hits per attack.

Both books were also written by different authors and IIRC KS was more relaxed in editing books back then.

[Tor]

I don't see your point. Invasion introduced a new ability not previously present for multi-limbed characters, and introduced it exclusively for the Xiticix species. There is no basis for retroactively applying it to other multi-limbed races when the exclusive basis for its introduction was their unique insect nature.

[Rimmerdal]

I don't see your point. Invasion introduced a new ability not previously present for multi-limbed characters, and introduced it exclusively for the Xiticix species. There is no basis for retroactively applying it to other multi-limbed races when the exclusive basis for its introduction was their unique insect nature.

I do see a point to it. If you have four arms and you can make a Psi-Sword..you can get more than one. the rule about the bugs getting should not exclusive when other four limed races are now becoming options. In this case its a matter of the rule applying to others as well. Not a new thing in RPG games at all.

its a simple matter of evolve or get to be outmoded. Besides the Fun of a multi-limbed PC is you can wield four weapons. As for how it came around its the reason Dual wielding and other arts did. they just happen, some guy with two swords just practiced and got better. Now use that with a Four armed guy and ta da! he can now use 4 weapons at once.

[Tor]

4-limbed beings have been an option for a LONG time in Rifts prior to Invasion. You could get 4-armed Borgs in the RMB, the Gigantes/Rahu-Men/Dybbuks in CB1, bio-borgs in Atlantis, Chaing-Ku/Dabugghs in England, Death/Necromancers in Africa, etc.

If Invasion meant for these preceding Rifts races to gain the Xiticix new power, it would have mentioned that they got them.

Instead, what we got were disclaimers explaining why only the Xitcix got the ability:

p68 "because the Xiticix practically have eyes in the back of their heads (thanks to the 340 degree range of peripheral vision and sensory abilities of their antennae), they can engage in simultaneous and multiple combat actions"
p69-70 "the extra pair of arms and sensory abilities of the Xiticix make up for the normal delay in reaction time and the Warrior can easily attempt to parry counterattack"
p70 "this simultaneous strike and parry is not applicable to most characters, not even those with four or more arms[b]. It is the Xiticix's extra limbs combined with its [b]multiple eyes, antennae senses and insect-like brain that gives the creature this ability"

It's very clear, it doesn't apply to Rahu-Men, and not even Jeridu or Death and his 6-armed necro buddies unless otherwise indicated. Limbs alone are not adequate, not even if you have them inherently due to your species. They afford you some extra actions, maybe some parry bonuses, but no special maneuvers regarding paired or simultaneous attacks.

The 'most' other character does give GMs some room for interpretation though. Like for example, with a 4-armed Dabuggh, since they are insect-like too, it would make sense to give them a similar ability to the Xiticix.

[Rimmerdal]

4-limbed beings have been an option for a LONG time in Rifts prior to Invasion. You could get 4-armed Borgs in the RMB, the Gigantes/Rahu-Men/Dybbuks in CB1, bio-borgs in Atlantis, Chaing-Ku/Dabugghs in England, Death/Necromancers in Africa, etc.

If Invasion meant for these preceding Rifts races to gain the Xiticix new power, it would have mentioned that they got them.

Instead, what we got were disclaimers explaining why only the Xitcix got the ability:

p68 "because the Xiticix practically have eyes in the back of their heads (thanks to the 340 degree range of peripheral vision and sensory abilities of their antennae), they can engage in simultaneous and multiple combat actions"
p69-70 "the extra pair of arms and sensory abilities of the Xiticix make up for the normal delay in reaction time and the Warrior can easily attempt to parry counterattack"
p70 "this simultaneous strike and parry is not applicable to most characters, not even those with four or more arms[b]. It is the Xiticix's extra limbs combined with its [b]multiple eyes, antennae senses and insect-like brain that gives the creature this ability"

It's very clear, it doesn't apply to Rahu-Men, and not even Jeridu or Death and his 6-armed necro buddies unless otherwise indicated. Limbs alone are not adequate, not even if you have them inherently due to your species. They afford you some extra actions, maybe some parry bonuses, but no special maneuvers regarding paired or simultaneous attacks.

The 'most' other character does give GMs some room for interpretation though. Like for example, with a 4-armed Dabuggh, since they are insect-like too, it would make sense to give them a similar ability to the Xiticix.

Martial artist today can do that trick too with people able to fight with two weapons. and Humans do not have eyes in the back of our heads. In the rifts earth setting its evolve or die. and fighting styles are no different. Its a matter practice, time and when the new material starts updating they will likely start allowing it. Most GM's already house rule it now and that is how new rules get picked up and made official. I'm certain some of the writers already do this in there own games and have these "house" in some manuscript already. Some already said the editing at the time was less strict and that to me says if they had time it would have been added officially.

at anyrate I can house rule it so I'm not too concerned if they make official or not. Just saying the practical reason for it to exist is there as are the skills needed to make it happen.

[Tor]

Yes, you can fight with 2 weapons in Palladium if you have paired WP. But you have to follow the standard rules which means that if you do a dual strike, you lose your auto-parry.

Of course you can still spend an action to dodge, and if you have auto-dodge, you MIGHT be able to do so automatically. A bit unclear on that. The wording COULD be interpreted as forcing auto-dodge to take an action, sort of like that cool power-armor that screws with Juicers.

[Rimmerdal]

Yes, you can fight with 2 weapons in Palladium if you have paired WP. But you have to follow the standard rules which means that if you do a dual strike, you lose your auto-parry.

Of course you can still spend an action to dodge, and if you have auto-dodge, you MIGHT be able to do so automatically. A bit unclear on that. The wording COULD be interpreted as forcing auto-dodge to take an action, sort of like that cool power-armor that screws with Juicers.

Losing auto parry would be fair. its essentially a dual strike with two more swords. So that makes sense. Auto Dodge is another thread altogether.

[Tor]

I take the 'he can dodge, but it costs an attack' very rigidly as applying to autoD too