Rifts Atmosphere & Radar

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Rifts Atmosphere & Radar

Unread post by The Beast »

Dog_O_War wrote:
flatline wrote:
Dog_O_War wrote:Read up on the radar systems themselves. You can literally set it to "gargoyle" and it will seek out and kill a gargoyle.


Radar might be able to identify and target gargoyles in the air, it'll totally miss any gargoyles on the ground unless they're standing on the top of a hill silhouetted against the horizon from the perspective of the missile (unlikely since the missile is probably flying at a high enough altitude such that any ground targets have the ground "behind" them).

--flatline

That may be true of our modern-day radar, but it is not true of the radar systems in Rifts; they program tanks and the like into the target identification system, and I'd assume it's for more than the off chance that "they're on the top of a hill silhouetted against the horizon from the perspective of the missile".

Remember, Rifts has a messed up atmosphere; it messes with traditional radio-waves, which should mess with radar. Yet we have radar that reaches hundreds of miles; it's more likely that "radar" in Rifts is more likely something akin to lidar, because Rifts is all about the lasers.


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Re: Rifts Atmosphere & Radar

Unread post by Natasha »

I guess two-way radios do not work either.
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Re: Rifts Atmosphere & Radar

Unread post by wyrmraker »

That's never made a lot of sense to me. If the atmosphere messed with long-range communications, there would've been no reasonably feasible way for Quebec to communicate with their trading partner, the New German Republic. Long range radar at military installations would be restricted to a few hundred miles, modern battlefield communications on multiple fronts would be next to impossible.

And I would like to know where this information about a radio-disruptive atmosphere in Rifts comes from, please.
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Re: Rifts Atmosphere & Radar

Unread post by Rimmerdal »

wyrmraker wrote:That's never made a lot of sense to me. If the atmosphere messed with long-range communications, there would've been no reasonably feasible way for Quebec to communicate with their trading partner, the New German Republic. Long range radar at military installations would be restricted to a few hundred miles, modern battlefield communications on multiple fronts would be next to impossible.

And I would like to know where this information about a radio-disruptive in Rifts comes from, please.


Wires under water could have been laid out and would older style Microwave or other less vulnerable signal be affected?
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Re: Rifts Atmosphere & Radar

Unread post by wyrmraker »

Rimmerdal wrote:
wyrmraker wrote:That's never made a lot of sense to me. If the atmosphere messed with long-range communications, there would've been no reasonably feasible way for Quebec to communicate with their trading partner, the New German Republic. Long range radar at military installations would be restricted to a few hundred miles, modern battlefield communications on multiple fronts would be next to impossible.

And I would like to know where this information about a radio-disruptive in Rifts comes from, please.


Wires under water could have been laid out and would older style Microwave or other less vulnerable signal be affected?

Underwater cables could be a possibility, if it weren't for sea monsters, Splugorth Slave Ships, and the like making it unfeasible. Plus, MDC sea critter gnawing on the cables.

And microwave communication would run afoul of the same interference as radio.
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Re: Rifts Atmosphere & Radar

Unread post by Rimmerdal »

wyrmraker wrote:
Rimmerdal wrote:
wyrmraker wrote:That's never made a lot of sense to me. If the atmosphere messed with long-range communications, there would've been no reasonably feasible way for Quebec to communicate with their trading partner, the New German Republic. Long range radar at military installations would be restricted to a few hundred miles, modern battlefield communications on multiple fronts would be next to impossible.

And I would like to know where this information about a radio-disruptive in Rifts comes from, please.


Wires under water could have been laid out and would older style Microwave or other less vulnerable signal be affected?

Underwater cables could be a possibility, if it weren't for sea monsters, Splugorth Slave Ships, and the like making it unfeasible. Plus, MDC sea critter gnawing on the cables.

And microwave communication would run afoul of the same interference as radio.

Sea monsters and such? eh thats what Cable laying crews of Cons are for. and that sounds like a decent Rifts game idea..
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Re: Rifts Atmosphere & Radar

Unread post by wyrmraker »

It'd be a lot like trying to string power lines on land. Something is going to take a bite. And given the difficulty of laying and then maintaining those underwater cables, the feasibility of such a task, even for the CS (near-constant war-time footing) or the NGR (total warfare with the Gargoyles) becomes pretty unlikely.

I still want to know where people are claiming the radio disruptive atmosphere can be found in the books.
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Re: Rifts Atmosphere & Radar

Unread post by The Beast »

wyrmraker wrote:I still want to know where people are claiming the radio disruptive atmosphere can be found in the books.


As do I.
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Re: Rifts Atmosphere & Radar

Unread post by guardiandashi »

The Beast wrote:
wyrmraker wrote:I still want to know where people are claiming the radio disruptive atmosphere can be found in the books.


As do I.

I don't remember radio /radar disruptive effects (other than possibly ley lines) but I do remember that it used to be that you couldn't use satellites, or lunar laser bounces for long range communications.

of course the newer material claims archie has at least one com satellite he was able to connect into and access. of course I would think the people in orbit would have swatted it but whatever
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Re: Rifts Atmosphere & Radar

Unread post by wyrmraker »

guardiandashi wrote:
The Beast wrote:
wyrmraker wrote:I still want to know where people are claiming the radio disruptive atmosphere can be found in the books.


As do I.

I don't remember radio /radar disruptive effects (other than possibly ley lines) but I do remember that it used to be that you couldn't use satellites, or lunar laser bounces for long range communications.

of course the newer material claims archie has at least one com satellite he was able to connect into and access. of course I would think the people in orbit would have swatted it but whatever

The reason satellites were off limits was the containment cordon maintained by the orbital colonies.

Archie-3 has access to a satellite because his security codes were able to access a new-model Cyberworks satellite from the CAN Republic. If it wasn't for that, he wouldn't have access to satellites.
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Re: Rifts Atmosphere & Radar

Unread post by cosmicfish »

Rimmerdal wrote:would older style Microwave or other less vulnerable signal be affected?

By "older style", do you mean <1 GHz?

I have worked in remote sensing professionally for years now, and have done everything from RF/microwave to optical, passive and active. Substantially and permanently impacting the performance of an entire species of sensor without compromising other systems and/or changing the nature of life on the planet would be extraordinarily difficult.

As has already been mentioned, the issue with satellites is not environmental, it is due to the quarantine of Earth by the orbital remains of the pre-Rifts cultures. I am not aware of any canon change to the potential ability of remote sensing systems, although there is a not-unreasonable amount of ignorance about their capabilities.
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Re: Rifts Atmosphere & Radar

Unread post by eliakon »

Can I assume that by the lack of response, that the idea that Rifts Earth has some sort of effect on radar/radio/what ever is not actually canon?
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Re: Rifts Atmosphere & Radar

Unread post by Alrik Vas »

I would say some book somewhere probably states that the atmosphere is screwy, but it may just be extrapolation that it reduces the effeciency of comms and radar.
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Re: Rifts Atmosphere & Radar

Unread post by Dog_O_War »

I read it long ago; it may take me a while to find the entry again.

Free Quebec has numerous ways of communicating with the NGR; laser communications and air (plane) / ground (boat) relays being the most likely. I mean, they could be sending cyberpony express or a note tied to a boomgun round launched at a high arc, but those don't seem very likely.

The other alternative is a power-boost to the signal, or simply really sensitive dishes which might be able to otherwise unscramble a transmission degraded by distance.
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Re: Rifts Atmosphere & Radar

Unread post by Rimmerdal »

I would say it goes by area. If a nuke or power plant went off, or a nexus line erupted then it may. But it does not seem canon or there would be no long range radios in rifts and archie would not have sat links to the orbital sats.
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Re: Rifts Atmosphere & Radar

Unread post by 42dragon »

I was always under the assumption that due to there not being capable satellites it almost always came down to line of sight issues. Even aircraft mounted radio and radar only had so much range. If you can't bounce a signal off a satellite to get around the curvature of the earth the ranges of sensors and communitions is severely limited in Rift's earth.

I don't think I ever heard of messed up atmosphere other than perhaps during ley line storms.
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Re: Rifts Atmosphere & Radar

Unread post by flatline »

I think that it's reasonable to assume that radio communication is more difficult in Rifts Earth for a number of reasons:
1. lack of satellite relays
2. increased noise floor from ley line activity and all the other stuff in the environment that may emit RF.

Both of these are things that can be dealt with.

The orbital debris field will probably make signal bounce more reliable since it is always present whereas most signal bounce effects today are dependent on atmospheric conditions.

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Re: Rifts Atmosphere & Radar

Unread post by cosmicfish »

Rimmerdal wrote:I would say it goes by area. If a nuke or power plant went off, or a nexus line erupted then it may.

Those would be temporary disruptions regardless.

42dragon wrote:I was always under the assumption that due to there not being capable satellites it almost always came down to line of sight issues. Even aircraft mounted radio and radar only had so much range. If you can't bounce a signal off a satellite to get around the curvature of the earth the ranges of sensors and communitions is severely limited in Rift's earth.

LOS is important for most sensing systems, but not especially for communications - you would be surprised what radio waves can do even in the worst of circumstances, and at the right times of day atmospheric bounce can give even modest transmitters (at certain frequencies) tremendous range. And LOS for airborne systems can be tremendous - the AWACS radar has a range of 250 miles and that isn't even the newest technology. Really, radar and comms ranges should be much, much longer, with the caveat that the GM should have absolute authority to restrict them due to terrain and other transient conditions.

flatline wrote:I think that it's reasonable to assume that radio communication is more difficult in Rifts Earth for a number of reasons:
1. lack of satellite relays
2. increased noise floor from ley line activity and all the other stuff in the environment that may emit RF.

Both of these are things that can be dealt with.

The orbital debris field will probably make signal bounce more reliable since it is always present whereas most signal bounce effects today are dependent on atmospheric conditions.

On the second point, I doubt that the noise floor from ley line activity would either be so persistent OR so strong that it would be a constant presence unsolvable compared to our current environment with millions, heck billions of transmitting sources at nearly every minute of every day.

Although it WOULD be interesting if the nature of Rifts Earth meant that some days you had 20 miles range and other days you had 2000.

On the first point, it always astonishes me that everyone immediately thinks of the lack of satellites but then ignores the strong technological organizations that have a vested interest in solving these problems. There are coding and transmission techniques that can do a lot to address the challenges of the supposed Rifts environment, techniques we have now even. There are also other options besides satellites - retransmission sites can be fixed (cell tower) or mobile.

Really, there is absolutely no reason why a Triax robot would not be able to bounce a comms signal (with a little delay) straight to Prosek's bathroom phone. There is also no reason why radar information would not be networked and shared, so that target designation was all but automatic and knowledge of enemy distributions well shared.
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Re: Rifts Atmosphere & Radar

Unread post by Natasha »

It is a layer of complexity the authors never decided to tackle. That is why we have tiny nuclear power plants that can run constantly for decades and can be installed in anything that moves. In the end, everything about Rifts scifi is really nothing more than a complexity theory reduction.
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Re: Rifts Atmosphere & Radar

Unread post by Library Ogre »

IIRC, BTS mentioned that ley lines could have an effect on radios and the like, but it's never been a quantified issue to my knowledge.

As for Quebec communicating with it's partner, I figure a lot of that happens via courier, rather than by radio. Given the situation, it's more secure, and there's not much that can intercept some of their flyers screaming at high speed on a Great Circle.
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Re: Rifts Atmosphere & Radar

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

old ways are still the best actually.. shortwave radio. it bounces off the ionosphere easily. on a bad day you could still get signals to and from europe. on a great day you could listen into stuff from Australia.. :)

you'd have to have good codes and encryption for security, but would be a viable approach.
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Re: Rifts Atmosphere & Radar

Unread post by Library Ogre »

glitterboy2098 wrote:old ways are still the best actually.. shortwave radio. it bounces off the ionosphere easily. on a bad day you could still get signals to and from europe. on a great day you could listen into stuff from Australia.. :)

you'd have to have good codes and encryption for security, but would be a viable approach.


Given the power of Rifts computing, I question the efficacy of encryption.
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Re: Rifts Atmosphere & Radar

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

which version of rifts computing? the ones with actual specs (that can be out performed by cheap modern flipphones) or the version with no specs given that we can't tell what it's capable of?

and computing power goes both ways.. better computers mean more complex and secure encryption. and decrypting without the keys will always take more computing power and time than encrypting it in the first place.

for a group like free quebec and the NGR, i have no doubt that they could put massive amounts of computer power to the job of making it really hard for others to break.
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Re: Rifts Atmosphere & Radar

Unread post by flatline »

Mark Hall wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:old ways are still the best actually.. shortwave radio. it bounces off the ionosphere easily. on a bad day you could still get signals to and from europe. on a great day you could listen into stuff from Australia.. :)

you'd have to have good codes and encryption for security, but would be a viable approach.


Given the power of Rifts computing, I question the efficacy of encryption.


You've actually got it backwards. More computing power means you can have MORE confidence that the encryption is unbreakable since you can handle longer keys.

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Re: Rifts Atmosphere & Radar

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

42dragon wrote:I was always under the assumption that due to there not being capable satellites it almost always came down to line of sight issues. Even aircraft mounted radio and radar only had so much range. If you can't bounce a signal off a satellite to get around the curvature of the earth the ranges of sensors and communitions is severely limited in Rift's earth.

I don't think I ever heard of messed up atmosphere other than perhaps during ley line storms.


Satellite-equivalency can be handled by hanging a cheap-as-crap derigible drone in the air at about 35,000 feet. They'd be so cheap that even if you had to send one up every few days to replace it from being destroyed, you could afford it.
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Re: Rifts Atmosphere & Radar

Unread post by Rimmerdal »

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
42dragon wrote:I was always under the assumption that due to there not being capable satellites it almost always came down to line of sight issues. Even aircraft mounted radio and radar only had so much range. If you can't bounce a signal off a satellite to get around the curvature of the earth the ranges of sensors and communitions is severely limited in Rift's earth.

I don't think I ever heard of messed up atmosphere other than perhaps during ley line storms.


Satellite-equivalency can be handled by hanging a cheap-as-crap derigible drone in the air at about 35,000 feet. They'd be so cheap that even if you had to send one up every few days to replace it from being destroyed, you could afford it.


Agreed. The CS would likely have a Skelebot type AI to operate it. Basicly a fire and forget Drone.
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Re: Rifts Atmosphere & Radar

Unread post by Library Ogre »

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
42dragon wrote:I was always under the assumption that due to there not being capable satellites it almost always came down to line of sight issues. Even aircraft mounted radio and radar only had so much range. If you can't bounce a signal off a satellite to get around the curvature of the earth the ranges of sensors and communitions is severely limited in Rift's earth.

I don't think I ever heard of messed up atmosphere other than perhaps during ley line storms.


Satellite-equivalency can be handled by hanging a cheap-as-crap derigible drone in the air at about 35,000 feet. They'd be so cheap that even if you had to send one up every few days to replace it from being destroyed, you could afford it.


I wrote an article about that a while ago. Might still have it buried in my computer.
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Re: Rifts Atmosphere & Radar

Unread post by CenINGM »

Natasha wrote:I guess two-way radios do not work either.



I may be a little bit late on this topic but here is the deal: Standard radar would not work, due to inconsistencies in the atmosphere, same with tropo-scatter comms, but UHF, EHF and P2P comms should still work, albeit with reduced ranges, so 2 way radio would work, provided its within the UHF-EHF ranges. The long range scanners may be Optical, but they could also be sonar.
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Re: Rifts Atmosphere & Radar

Unread post by cosmicfish »

CenINGM wrote:I may be a little bit late on this topic but here is the deal: Standard radar would not work, due to inconsistencies in the atmosphere, same with tropo-scatter comms, but UHF, EHF and P2P comms should still work, albeit with reduced ranges, so 2 way radio would work, provided its within the UHF-EHF ranges. The long range scanners may be Optical, but they could also be sonar.

On what are you basing these statements? What are these "inconsistencies in the atmosphere" of which you speak?
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Re: Rifts Atmosphere & Radar

Unread post by CenINGM »

well for one, the EM interference increase due to the rifts. Regardless of whether or not there has been any indication of this being a factor or not, 1) magic/ghosts/the supernatural has long been rumoured to have an impact on the electromagnetic fields that exist naturally 2) in the small traces of these things that are purportedly tacking place in our own reality, can you imagine what it would be like for a world that essentially overloaded the circuit?

For two, its a known fact that EM fields can affect comms, thats the reason there is UTP/STP cabling. The more EM, the more signal degradation. Again, higher freq comms arent as heavily affected by EM, whichis why in hot zones they state to use UHF or EHF radio, or P2P los comms. Sonar is only speculation. I don't work with full ping at all, but the science is based on sound waves so with the exception of space, or a vacuum where there is no atmosphere, based on a rudimentary knowledge, should work.
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Re: Rifts Atmosphere & Radar

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

so basically, nothing canon.. but your stating it as fact anyway?
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Re: Rifts Atmosphere & Radar

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

glitterboy2098 wrote:so basically, nothing canon.. but your stating it as fact anyway?


Well, its an explanation that does fit the "no one can communicate over long distances for some reason" in the NA Setting.

It's stated/inferred/implied that the various CS states and bases have trouble maintaining regular communication in some of the early books when that should be no big deal at all with simple radio towers.

There is no reason why Prosek couldn't call Free Quebec with 1950s tech, so the seeming inability to do so in the original setting books was sorta.. never explained.

Basically there's no reason everyone in North America shouldn't be able to communicate relatively easily (if they want to), at least settlement-to-settlement, but the early setting treated it as if that were impossible... so he's extrapolating to fit those facts.
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Re: Rifts Atmosphere & Radar

Unread post by CenINGM »

glitterboy2098 wrote:so basically, nothing canon.. but your stating it as fact anyway?


Canon is....malleable. The concept behind Canon is to grant a certain degree of uniformity to a game/story setting, but can be altered slightly based entirely on the knowledge of the storyteller/game master. So in response to your question: No, nothing "canon" aside from the facts as we know them: Magical energies, shifting polarities, and general lack of comms; combined with my knowledge of communications and electronic theory, which, is taught as fact. So combine column A with Column B and you have a working, logical theory of how/what would work in a world very different from our own. Again, canon being malleable, you can absolutely take what I say and purge it from your Brain Housing Group if you wish. That is the beauty of an RPG as Immersive as Rifts, if you don't like it, don't use it. Just offering a bit of insight is all.
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Re: Rifts Atmosphere & Radar

Unread post by eliakon »

CenINGM wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:so basically, nothing canon.. but your stating it as fact anyway?


Canon is....malleable. The concept behind Canon is to grant a certain degree of uniformity to a game/story setting, but can be altered slightly based entirely on the knowledge of the storyteller/game master. So in response to your question: No, nothing "canon" aside from the facts as we know them: Magical energies, shifting polarities, and general lack of comms; combined with my knowledge of communications and electronic theory, which, is taught as fact. So combine column A with Column B and you have a working, logical theory of how/what would work in a world very different from our own. Again, canon being malleable, you can absolutely take what I say and purge it from your Brain Housing Group if you wish. That is the beauty of an RPG as Immersive as Rifts, if you don't like it, don't use it. Just offering a bit of insight is all.

Actually, canon is fairly rigid. That is why its canon. :D Stating something is 'a fact' implies that it has more support than 'well my house rule says....'
In Canon there is nothing that would say that radar would or would not be messed up.
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Re: Rifts Atmosphere & Radar

Unread post by wyrmraker »

eliakon wrote:
CenINGM wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:so basically, nothing canon.. but your stating it as fact anyway?


Canon is....malleable. The concept behind Canon is to grant a certain degree of uniformity to a game/story setting, but can be altered slightly based entirely on the knowledge of the storyteller/game master. So in response to your question: No, nothing "canon" aside from the facts as we know them: Magical energies, shifting polarities, and general lack of comms; combined with my knowledge of communications and electronic theory, which, is taught as fact. So combine column A with Column B and you have a working, logical theory of how/what would work in a world very different from our own. Again, canon being malleable, you can absolutely take what I say and purge it from your Brain Housing Group if you wish. That is the beauty of an RPG as Immersive as Rifts, if you don't like it, don't use it. Just offering a bit of insight is all.

Actually, canon is fairly rigid. That is why its canon. :D Stating something is 'a fact' implies that it has more support than 'well my house rule says....'
In Canon there is nothing that would say that radar would or would not be messed up.

I would agree with you on the view of Canon, except that Canon in PB tends to get extremely self-contradictory. We all know this.
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Re: Rifts Atmosphere & Radar

Unread post by eliakon »

wyrmraker wrote:
eliakon wrote:
CenINGM wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:so basically, nothing canon.. but your stating it as fact anyway?


Canon is....malleable. The concept behind Canon is to grant a certain degree of uniformity to a game/story setting, but can be altered slightly based entirely on the knowledge of the storyteller/game master. So in response to your question: No, nothing "canon" aside from the facts as we know them: Magical energies, shifting polarities, and general lack of comms; combined with my knowledge of communications and electronic theory, which, is taught as fact. So combine column A with Column B and you have a working, logical theory of how/what would work in a world very different from our own. Again, canon being malleable, you can absolutely take what I say and purge it from your Brain Housing Group if you wish. That is the beauty of an RPG as Immersive as Rifts, if you don't like it, don't use it. Just offering a bit of insight is all.

Actually, canon is fairly rigid. That is why its canon. :D Stating something is 'a fact' implies that it has more support than 'well my house rule says....'
In Canon there is nothing that would say that radar would or would not be messed up.

I would agree with you on the view of Canon, except that Canon in PB tends to get extremely self-contradictory. We all know this.

Yes, but its RIGIDLY self-contradictory! (often in ALL CAPITOL LETTERS)

Actually my point is that its confusing enough as it is, with out people making claims about their own house rules being fact.
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

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Re: Rifts Atmosphere & Radar

Unread post by CenINGM »

eliakon wrote:
wyrmraker wrote:
eliakon wrote:
CenINGM wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:so basically, nothing canon.. but your stating it as fact anyway?


Canon is....malleable. The concept behind Canon is to grant a certain degree of uniformity to a game/story setting, but can be altered slightly based entirely on the knowledge of the storyteller/game master. So in response to your question: No, nothing "canon" aside from the facts as we know them: Magical energies, shifting polarities, and general lack of comms; combined with my knowledge of communications and electronic theory, which, is taught as fact. So combine column A with Column B and you have a working, logical theory of how/what would work in a world very different from our own. Again, canon being malleable, you can absolutely take what I say and purge it from your Brain Housing Group if you wish. That is the beauty of an RPG as Immersive as Rifts, if you don't like it, don't use it. Just offering a bit of insight is all.

Actually, canon is fairly rigid. That is why its canon. :D Stating something is 'a fact' implies that it has more support than 'well my house rule says....'
In Canon there is nothing that would say that radar would or would not be messed up.

I would agree with you on the view of Canon, except that Canon in PB tends to get extremely self-contradictory. We all know this.

Yes, but its RIGIDLY self-contradictory! (often in ALL CAPITOL LETTERS)

Actually my point is that its confusing enough as it is, with out people making claims about their own house rules being fact.


Again, I think we may have a slight breakdown here: Nothing was stated as "fact" other than I know a thing or two about communications and Signal flow. No house rules, no indication of what I stated being Canonical, in fact, I agree with you, nothing within Canon states there is anything that prevents Radar from functioning. BUT seeing as I was offering a point of view originally on radios, and like I said, with an RPG world being malleable, Merely offering an idea of things to add flavor or grant some slight subtext to the game. If it works for you use it, if not, don't. :)
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Re: Rifts Atmosphere & Radar

Unread post by cosmicfish »

CenINGM wrote:well for one, the EM interference increase due to the rifts. Regardless of whether or not there has been any indication of this being a factor or not, 1) magic/ghosts/the supernatural has long been rumoured to have an impact on the electromagnetic fields that exist naturally 2) in the small traces of these things that are purportedly tacking place in our own reality, can you imagine what it would be like for a world that essentially overloaded the circuit?

Sure, but it doesn't look anything like Rifts Earth, where communications and radar are unimpaired below a certain range threshold but absolutely squelched above it! Seriously, if the problem was just background noise, AND it was big enough to so thoroughly block long ranges, then compact short-term systems would be unfeasible - because they are going to be the FIRST to fail, not the last! Long range comms/sensor systems, supported by people with two centuries to address the problems of the post-apocalypse environment AND whom have access to pre-Rifts work on information theory, should have global comms up and running far faster than they could figure out how to make a bionic ear work!

CenINGM wrote:Sonar is only speculation. I don't work with full ping at all, but the science is based on sound waves so with the exception of space, or a vacuum where there is no atmosphere, based on a rudimentary knowledge, should work.

And you think EM comms has a noise problem? It has been done, but is only effective at short ranges, and according to basic physics, the amount of power required for more than very close range sensing or comms would be past the "sonic cannon" range and into the "voice of God" range. There is a reason we don't do this outside the water, and even in the water (where attenuation with range is far, far less) these kinds of systems face massive problems.
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Re: Rifts Atmosphere & Radar

Unread post by cosmicfish »

CenINGM wrote:Again, I think we may have a slight breakdown here: Nothing was stated as "fact" other than I know a thing or two about communications and Signal flow. No house rules, no indication of what I stated being Canonical, in fact, I agree with you, nothing within Canon states there is anything that prevents Radar from functioning. BUT seeing as I was offering a point of view originally on radios, and like I said, with an RPG world being malleable, Merely offering an idea of things to add flavor or grant some slight subtext to the game. If it works for you use it, if not, don't. :)

I would like to offer a contradictory take on canon:

The authors of the game were interested in producing a particular effect, and lacking the knowledge or time or interest to concoct a reason, simply enacted it by fiat. There is no underlying cause, nor it is likely that one could even identify a possible cause that was not repeatedly contradicted elsewhere in the game, because that is what happens when you create effects and not causes.

So there are three real courses of action you can take, based on this:

1) Accept it and move on. It is certainly the most fun choice, and the one involving the least amount of work. That it may be unrealistic or self-contradictory is not your problem if you just decide not to care about it, and at the end of the day there is only so much a person can care about things in a game and still have fun.

2) Create your own causes, and change the effects. You think rifts and supernatural activity increase background EM noise? Great! Go with it, figure out how much each class of electronics would be effected and see how the canon descriptions need to be altered to match. For example, I would say that supernaturally-instigated EM noise would mean that personal comms would be highly limited (since small sets would be unlikely to have either the transmit or processing power to handle an insanely-high noise level) and that any local use of magic would wreak all hell with electronics - so a Shifter casting a spell means no radio! This can be fun for some people, but is limited to your level of knowledge and interest, and can be daunting.

3) Fanboy it up and invent solutions that don't work but also don't contradict "important" canon. This is a common solution, but it always seems to run into the problem of contradicting "minor" canon or, quite often what we know of physics, engineering, and/or psychology. You can say "Y exists in canon, and it is perfectly caused by X" but barring one-in-a-billion luck someone is going to quickly find evidence that you missed something in fiction or reality that immediately contradicts it. It won't work, and is really just a way of investing a lot of time and annoying a lot of people for what is basically a more convoluted and less fun version of option #1. The only virtue of this approach is that it allows the inventor of the solution to maintain their personal belief in the perfection of the original content, at the cost of seeming like a rational human being.
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Re: Rifts Atmosphere & Radar

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

before this tack get too far along flamewar wise.. i ask again.. where does any of this "long range communications don't work" stuff comes from in the books? because last i checked, it didn't.
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Re: Rifts Atmosphere & Radar

Unread post by wyrmraker »

I am still waiting on that source, please.
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Re: Rifts Atmosphere & Radar

Unread post by The Beast »

That was the only point of this thread...
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Re: Rifts Atmosphere & Radar

Unread post by Nightmask »

wyrmraker wrote:I am still waiting on that source, please.


There isn't one, the material on the atmosphere is regarding how problematic it is for physical travel, I haven't seen anything where one should think it also affects radio waves or radar (other than perhaps a few rare locations that suffer from severe anomalies like I think the Yucatan, as at least one location is a permanent dimensional pocket deal straddling multiple dimensions).
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It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
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Re: Rifts Atmosphere & Radar

Unread post by wyrmraker »

Nightmask wrote:
wyrmraker wrote:I am still waiting on that source, please.


There isn't one, the material on the atmosphere is regarding how problematic it is for physical travel, I haven't seen anything where one should think it also affects radio waves or radar (other than perhaps a few rare locations that suffer from severe anomalies like I think the Yucatan, as at least one location is a permanent dimensional pocket deal straddling multiple dimensions).

Ah, I see. An erroneous extrapolation, then.
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Re: Rifts Atmosphere & Radar

Unread post by Giant2005 »

glitterboy2098 wrote:before this tack get too far along flamewar wise.. i ask again.. where does any of this "long range communications don't work" stuff comes from in the books? because last i checked, it didn't.

It exists on page 152 of The Rifts Main Book. It specifically cites that Global and Continental communications is impossible, although it cites the reason as being a lack of Satellites to use, not that the atmosphere has been altered somehow.
Either way, it does rule out the possibility, it just doesn't justify it regarding all possibilities - that will have to be something left up to the Game Master. The atmosphere being messed up is as good a reason as any.
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Re: Rifts Atmosphere & Radar

Unread post by Nightmask »

wyrmraker wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
wyrmraker wrote:I am still waiting on that source, please.


There isn't one, the material on the atmosphere is regarding how problematic it is for physical travel, I haven't seen anything where one should think it also affects radio waves or radar (other than perhaps a few rare locations that suffer from severe anomalies like I think the Yucatan, as at least one location is a permanent dimensional pocket deal straddling multiple dimensions).


Ah, I see. An erroneous extrapolation, then.


Most likely, yes. The 'air travel is dangerous from dimensional anomalies' becoming 'the air is bad for anything traveling through it including radio waves'. If you look under Rifts: Triax and their super-sonic transport that they use for transporting goods to and from the US (like Free Quebec) they note how if flies high enough to be above the worst of those, which holds up the 'a problem for physical travel' issue, but no mention of trouble with radar or for that matter light.
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It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
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Re: Rifts Atmosphere & Radar

Unread post by Nightmask »

Giant2005 wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:before this tack get too far along flamewar wise.. i ask again.. where does any of this "long range communications don't work" stuff comes from in the books? because last i checked, it didn't.


It exists on page 152 of The Rifts Main Book. It specifically cites that Global and Continental communications is impossible, although it cites the reason as being a lack of Satellites to use, not that the atmosphere has been altered somehow.
Either way, it does rule out the possibility, it just doesn't justify it regarding all possibilities - that will have to be something left up to the Game Master. The atmosphere being messed up is as good a reason as any.


I'm not seeing how 'long-range communications aren't possible due to the lack of satellite relays' can be translated into 'the Earth's atmosphere is messed up making long-range radio communication and radar fail', something quite unrelated to the given reason for why long-range communications isn't happening (that reason being 'we just can't put up satellites to do it', a technical issue not a physical problem).
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.

'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin

It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
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Re: Rifts Atmosphere & Radar

Unread post by flatline »

Nightmask wrote:
Giant2005 wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:before this tack get too far along flamewar wise.. i ask again.. where does any of this "long range communications don't work" stuff comes from in the books? because last i checked, it didn't.


It exists on page 152 of The Rifts Main Book. It specifically cites that Global and Continental communications is impossible, although it cites the reason as being a lack of Satellites to use, not that the atmosphere has been altered somehow.
Either way, it does rule out the possibility, it just doesn't justify it regarding all possibilities - that will have to be something left up to the Game Master. The atmosphere being messed up is as good a reason as any.


I'm not seeing how 'long-range communications aren't possible due to the lack of satellite relays' can be translated into 'the Earth's atmosphere is messed up making long-range radio communication and radar fail', something quite unrelated to the given reason for why long-range communications isn't happening (that reason being 'we just can't put up satellites to do it', a technical issue not a physical problem).


I'd attribute it to the authors not knowing anything about short wave radios and therefore assuming that long range radio communication is impossible without having a satellite involved somehow.

I had one GM declare that for some unknown reason, air elementals loved to hang out just below the troposphere in such large numbers that signal bounce was virtually impossible. They also created a huge amount of radio static via their playful use of lightning (or maybe lightning was naturally discharged from the elemental's bodies...I don't remember). Basically, unless you had a strong signal or line of sight with a repeater, it prevented radio communication over any serious distance. That's just how he wanted it in his world and his explanation seemed consistent with how the Author envisioned Rifts Earth.

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Re: Rifts Atmosphere & Radar

Unread post by Mack »

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:It's stated/inferred/implied that the various CS states and bases have trouble maintaining regular communication in some of the early books when that should be no big deal at all with simple radio towers.


What book says that?
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Re: Rifts Atmosphere & Radar

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

Mack wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:It's stated/inferred/implied that the various CS states and bases have trouble maintaining regular communication in some of the early books when that should be no big deal at all with simple radio towers.


What book says that?


the Rifts Main Book, for starters. Just like there is no long-range communication to most city states, when even a primitive short wave radio would keep even a backwoods outpost in contact with things hundreds of miles away.
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