Need help sorting out Strike/Dodge bonuses in Robotech

[bielmic]

I've reacquired some of the current gen robotech books after selling my manga ones and I've been trying to wrap my head around the added complexity to what bonuses go where in which cases that were added since the days of original robotech and pre-RUE Rifts. Here is a list of the exclusions that I've found hidden throughout the rules and I was wondering if there are any more that I missed. Since Palladium has decided to break up strike and dodge into multiple different categories, a simple table listed which bonuses apply to each category would have been really helpful instead of trying to find nuggets of exclusions scattered throughout the books. In earlier versions, the bonuses may have been nonintuitive (why does daily yoga via athletics skill let me better at avoiding missiles in a fighter jet?) but they were simple to apply. Now it seems that they've been broken up rather haphazardly into different categories and I'm not sure how far to take the logic from one to the next when the RAW is unclear. If I'm wrong about something or missed a reference last night when jotting down the notes, please feel free to correct me AND post the page number/section of the Shadow Chronicles book so people reading the thread can reference it themselves. Page numbers below refer to the hardcover RTSC book and full sized Macross book when noted.

Close Combat Dodge: All bonuses unless they specify ranged combat? So OCC/RCC, mecha specific bonuses, skill bonuses, character quick roll benefits, PP, close combat skill, mecha combat training.

Close Combat Strike: Need a 4 to hit. Bonuses as above? Basically the kitchen sink unless it specifies ranged only?

Ranged Combat Dodge: Not hand to hand combat so don't include hand to hand bonuses (see the modern strike exclusion below) like HTH and Mecha Combat training since it is specifically listed under HTH combat? Nothing in the rules stated or examples shown either way that other than common sense wording and a lack of evidence otherwise (like an example). Skills like boxing are specified as adding to HTH combat skills so don't include them as well? So OCC/RCC, mecha specific, skills that list ranged combat, character quick roll benefits, and PP.

Ranged Bullet/Energy Dodge: Only PP and OCC bonuses (pg. 160). So being in a maneuvable mech doesn't help you dodge these? (i.e. MAC II compared with VF-1). What about RCC bonuses as they're not the same as OCC but similar? Does having an RCC or OCC autododge bonus allow you to autododge bullets/energy despite autododge being referenced specifically under HTH combat?.

Ranged Combat Ancient Weapons Strike: Need 8 to hit (pg 160). So OCC, RCC, mecha specific bonuses, skill bonuses, PP, character quick roll bonuses, and WP unless they exclude ranged combat.

Ranged Combat Modern Weapons Strike: As ancient ranged weapons above but you don't get PP bonsues or hand to hand bonuses? No hand to hand bonuses (pg 159). So OCC, RCC, mecha specific bonuses, skill bonuses, character quick roll bonuses, and WP unless they exclude ranged combat.

Ranged Missile Strike: Need a 4 to hit instead of the "all ranged attacks: requires a roll of 8 to strike"? Pg. 161 for missiles and 160 for general ranged weapons. Not sure if that is a typo, copy/paste carry over from older rules, or an inception deeper layer exclusion to the exclusion (need to a 4 to hit... unless you're in ranged combat where you need an 8... unless you're shooting a missile in ranged combat where you need a 4 again). So as ranged combat modern weapons but add in guided missile bonuses when applicable?

Automatic Dodge: Referenced only in the Hand to Hand combat explanation on pg 154... so only used in hand to hand combat? It's neither PP nor OCC so it's specifically excluded from dodging bullets and energy weapons? Autododge does NOT stack with other bonuses like PP (pg. 92) unlike in other palladium rules including previous Robotech and current RUE.

Ugghh... This is alot to take in and my gut feeling is that it is just added complexity and not actual depth to the rules compared with the rather simple but unintuitive original versions I was used to. The NPCs don't seem to have any of the above sorted out so are you just supposed to remember the exclusions and retroactively add/subtract from their stats? Is the strike bonus listed on an NPC:

a) Melee Strike?

b) Ancient Weapon Strike?

c) Ranged (not Energy or bullet) modern weapon Strike?

d) Ranged Energy or bullet modern weapon Strike?

[Kryptt]

Your not the only one having a rough go at reading the rules. A lot of it seems to be all over the place. Subtext boxes would go a long way into helping explain some of the nuances of the rules as well as better organization of the rules themselves. To be fair though it might also have to do with the fact that I haven't looked into a PB book in 20yrs. But I don't remember having to put this much work into learning the dark heresy rules. One dice to rule them all.lol

[Colonel Wolfe]

I wish I could help, but I'm even more confused now that I've read through this... lol.
I'll go over the rules in detail and sort out what I can... contradictions and all.

[bielmic]

Your not the only one having a rough go at reading the rules. A lot of it seems to be all over the place. Subtext boxes would go a long way into helping explain some of the nuances of the rules as well as better organization of the rules themselves. To be fair though it might also have to do with the fact that I haven't looked into a PB book in 20yrs. But I don't remember having to put this much work into learning the dark heresy rules. One dice to rule them all.lol

I agree that subtext boxes and tables would have been very helpful but that doesn't jive with the two column format that palladium traditionally uses. Most of the tables I see have been around in some for for decades (stat bonuses, missle damage,etc) and only tweaked in the meantime. I both played and ran 40k RPG games (Deathwatch specifically) and it certainly wasn't as much work as this despite me being a returning megaversal player and me being a new 40k rpg player at that time. The FFG rules struct me as "old school" feel as opposed to the minis/grid style common now with D&D 3/4 but it felt like they went through the ruleset page by page making sure it all meshed and checked to make sure each part actually needed to be there... the feel I'm getting with reading Robotech is more of a post-it note/cobbled together over decades without a comprehensive review feeling.

I wish I could help, but I'm even more confused now that I've read through this... lol.
I'll go over the rules in detail and sort out what I can... contradictions and all.

No worries, any help is appreciated. I corrected a typo above under ranged bullet/energy combat that I found after posting. I was very confused by how much more complicated the system is now compared with original robotech in parts so I tried methodically writing down what I read to help organize it. It seems that they've had multiple layers of complexity added inconsistently with the NPCs statted out just like in the old days despite the bonuses being divided up into multiple categories. It seems that no matter which route you follow you end up with contradictions... do you extend the logic partly presented (you don't use HTH combat bonuses for striking with bullets so why should you use HTH to dodge bullets?) even if it conflicts with previous megaversal rules? Do you follow the RAW when it conflicts previous games (are HTH combat bonuses are for HTH only unless otherwise stated)? Either one results in HTH bonuses (which includes all mecha combat training and HTH bonuses) not being used for most modern ranged combat... but it also conflicts with the usage of "melee attacks" from HTH combat bonuses as the primary method for determining how many times you attack in ranged bullet/energy combat. Unfortunately, it seems that trying to apply a consistent methodolgy to the rules just exposes how problematic they are.

[Colonel Wolfe]

I wish I could help, but I'm even more confused now that I've read through this... lol.
I'll go over the rules in detail and sort out what I can... contradictions and all.

No worries, any help is appreciated. I corrected a typo above under ranged bullet/energy combat that I found after posting. I was very confused by how much more complicated the system is now compared with original robotech in parts so I tried methodically writing down what I read to help organize it. Unfortunately, it seems that trying to apply a consistent methodolgy to the rules just exposes how problematic they are. It seems that they've had multiple layers of complexity added inconsistently with the NPCs statted out just like in the old days despite the bonuses being divided up into multiple categories.

I remember when I was told that how I had been running Robotech for years was wrong, we moved to the Round-robin method of play... until I read RUE, and that Round-Robin was actually an option method for running combat, and how I had ran it for years was actually right...
but honestly, I hadn't really changed over to the newer methods of running combat, with the conflicting ways of making bonuses and making aimed shots 2 actions...

[bielmic]

but honestly, I hadn't really changed over to the newer methods of running combat, with the conflicting ways of making bonuses and making aimed shots 2 actions...

That might be the only worthwhile way to play. Unless there is a whole bunch of clarifications I'm missing, the as written dividing up of bonuses make the rules significantly more complicated for no actual benefit. The only options are to simply use another rules system for Robotech (which is a bit more work up front but if this is how the most important combat bonuses are "organized" now I'm afraid to see what else I might find) or just ignore the changes and play with the bonuses 1980's old school. Just add up everything (yes, daily yoga will make your veritech less likely to be shot down by missiles) for simplicity and ignore the various rules seemingly how the NPCs do. The only thing I might add is autododge and make it only cummulative with other autododge benefits and PP. Although.. it's a bit wierd that macross era mecha frequently have autododges but somehow they lose that by Shadow Chronicles. I don't know if that's due to a different author and things being changed willy nilly without thinking how it affects the game overall like with the bonuses.

[jaymz]

Ok as I understand it:

Melee combat strike - all bonuses apply

Ranged Combat strike - Targeting systems, WP, weapon systems and specific ranged unit MECT bonuses only apply.

Melee dodge - all bonuses apply

Ranged dodge - all bonuses apply, the PP only thing is at least than 50ft and is from the -10/-5 to dodge modern weapons rule and only applies to 50ft or less.

Autododge - applies in all cases not just melee.

As for round robin versus other....I've always played it round robin but that's me.

Hope this helps because the rules do take some reading through to find everything and the above is based on all the Palladium games I've played over the last 20+ years. It is WHY I've called for serious compiling, clarifying and cleaning up of the rules not a rewrite.

[Kryptt]

I would also like to see the rules clarified to make it easier on us new or returning players. Also a slick shiny way of presenting the rules would go a long way into getting new people excited and want to dive right into the book. Right now I feel like I'm forcing myself to learn to play using a boring textbook from my school days. I hope theses constructive opinions help in future layouts for the rules.

[bielmic]

Ok as I understand it:

*snip*

Ranged dodge - all bonuses apply, the PP only thing is at least than 50ft and is from the -10/-5 to dodge modern weapons rule and only applies to 50ft or less.

Autododge - applies in all cases not just melee.

*snip*

Hope this helps because the rules do take some reading through to find everything and the above is based on all the Palladium games I've played over the last 20+ years. It is WHY I've called for serious compiling, clarifying and cleaning up of the rules not a rewrite.

I hope you don't take this the wrong way as I made alot of the same assumptions you made above from previous megaversal game experience but they don't seem to be based in the actual current robotech rules as written. For instance, I've seen the PP only rule within 50ft in RUE or possible even going back to the original Rifts Sourcebook One clarifications (pre-revision)... but I don't recall seeing that in Robotech. Do you have a page reference or are you assuming that it carried over from the other game lines? Also, while I agree that likely the intent (and actual practice of autododge in other games including original Robotech in it's last years) is to allow autododge for ranged combat, I don't see anywhere in the rules that actually allows it as it's only mentioned in close combat. Is there a spot in the rules where it's talked about in RTSC for ranged combat even peripherally? Again, I don't mean to offend but I'm trying to determine what the rules tell me to do in Robotech RTSC and Macross (not Rifts or commonly accepted house rules).

I'm trying to approach my return to Robotech RPG books and rules in a methodical nature and unfortunately very little seems to mesh. I found myself making the same assumptions you did based on my 10+ years of Palladium RPG MDC gaming (Rifts/Robotech for pretty much the entirety of the 1990's) but alot of small but important stuff has changed... and unfortunately it doesn't seem like there was any sort of overall plan or guide. Whatever felt "right" at the moment a page was written and/or edited regardless of how it fit into the game overall seems to have been used. While sometimes it worked out (I do like having more detailed rules for shooting down missile volleys) it feels to me as a returning player coming back from other more cohesive games that there are more misses than hits game design-wise. The more I read the more I find myself thinking "Screw it... just do it like with original robotech". In a way, I've still got that option as I have my old complete book collection (sold off most of my complete to around 2001 Rifts book collection but couldn't part with ANY Robotech!) and might just default to using the new material for mecha stats. For completely new players, that frankly isn't an option and they're stuck largely with the new stuff.

[Colonel Wolfe]

auto-dodge in robotech doesn't add the bonus from PP. (pg 92, R:TSC full-size, #13)

[bielmic]

auto-dodge in robotech doesn't add the bonus from PP. (pg 92, R:TSC full-size, #13)

Thanks for the clarification and page reference. The answer though is unfortunately confusing as it differs from both RUE and the previous Robotech rules which reinforces that you can't automatically use prior Palladium gaming experience in figuring out how to play Robotech. Also, that very important note about autododge is something that absolutely belongs in the explanation of autododge in the combat chapter, not buried in the description of a single mecha.. especially as it deviates from the existing megaversal rules on the same thing and since the RTSC book is the "core" book that other supplements must reference for rules. I'll edit the original post with this assuming that it lets me.

[Colonel Wolfe]

If the book is read cover to cover... the automatic dodge is covered there so it wouldn't need repeating in the combat section. I believe this was because the book was printed in the micro format and not full sized so they had to condense and remove repetition of information.

[jaymz]

I hope you don't take this the wrong way

I didn't. Problem is so much cut and paste happens with Palladium I just play it the way I know it. And as you are seeing the Robotech version is confusing as all get out at times due as much to layout as it is due to anything else. This demonstrates just how un-megaversal the megaversal system really is.

[bielmic]

If the book is read cover to cover... the automatic dodge is covered there so it wouldn't need repeating in the combat section. I believe this was because the book was printed in the micro format and not full sized so they had to condense and remove repetition of information.

I'd offer that the much better place for the details in a core multi-setting book would be under the definition of the game rule and not under a mech that happens to use the rule. In any case, thanks for finding it and clarifying that is does deviate from the other games.

@Jaymz: Totally agree unfortunately.

[Colonel Wolfe]

If the book is read cover to cover... the automatic dodge is covered there so it wouldn't need repeating in the combat section. I believe this was because the book was printed in the micro format and not full sized so they had to condense and remove repetition of information.

I'd offer that the much better place for the details in a core multi-setting book would be under the definition of the game rule and not under a mech that happens to use the rule. In any case, thanks for finding it and clarifying that is does deviate from the other games.

@Jaymz: Totally agree unfortunately.

i completely agree, and had to dig around to find the rules for Auto-dodge in the book... but if it was done for formatting reasons it would have been better to put it with the Rules, and not with the Mecha, but this si the company that put the definition for the Word D-Bee not in the Lexicon, but in the character creation section...

[bielmic]

Doesn't look like anyone else has any advice or added points and I haven't found anything in the actual rules to make it all more cohesive either. Like all things megaversal, I'm pretty much left with house ruling it. I've decided if this campaign ever gets off the ground to instead split the bonuses up into two broad categories and leave them at that instead of how it is above.

Close combat bonuses and physical skill bonuses only apply when you're using your own body in direct combat (so ancient weapons and close combat outside of mecha only). When piloting mecha, you start with two attacks and add the other applicable bonuses other than close combat and physical skills. That way, knowing kung fu doesn't make you a better tanker and yoga doesn't give your jetfighter added survivability versus missiles. PP bonuses would apply to both as would any occ bonuses that aren't specific to one or the other. I'd get rid of the separate category of "versus energy or bullets" as well. Basically, you'd have two separate groups of general stats (mecha combat and personal combat) that you'd then add in weapon specific bonuses as needed. I'm still a bit undecided about how to apply the above to the fringe case of Nous-Ger power armor and cyclones where it's a mix of the two as well as whether or not to add back PP to autododge.


Now.. if only there was a way to make the stats more applicable to the appropriate abilities instead of having an IQ automatically make you a better ninja and/or swimmer...

[bielmic]

I've been looking over the autododges in the robotech books (why does Shadow Chronicles veritechs have no autododges but later *books* but earlier less advanced mecha do?) and came up with an idea for a house rule. What if autododges didn't actually grant you an automatic free dodge attempt (kind of a powerful ability haphazardly spread throughout the books IMO from my old Rifts Juicer days) but rather they increased your "passive" defense. Basically, you'd take your autododge bonus (and only that bonus) and add it to the number enemies need to hit you (so 4 in close combat and 8 in ranged combat). SO... a mecha with a +4 autododge would require an attack roll of at least 12 to generate a hit (and need a possible dodge roll) instead of an 8. Ideas?

[Seto Kaiba]

(why does Shadow Chronicles veritechs have no autododges but later *books* but earlier less advanced mecha do?)

You'll get as many answers to this one as there are posters who reply... but most boil down to either the animation showing that the MOSPEADA fighters aren't as agile as those of Macross or, to a lesser extent, Southern Cross, and changes in author. If you're looking for the simplest solution, just give the RTSC VFs the same autododge values as what the Masters Saga mecha have... they were developed in-universe around the same time period.

[bielmic]

Yeah, the change in primary author (since gone) is what I suspected personally as the main reason. I can't see the typical battlepod as more advanced and instinctively maneuverable than an alpha personally but YMMV. Any thoughts on using autododge bonuses for a passive AC-style buff? One thing I forgot to mention is that for units with only autododge bonuses, they'd get a standard dodge bonus equal to it for when they decide to use an action to dodge.

[Seto Kaiba]

Yeah, the change in primary author (since gone) is what I suspected personally as the main reason. I can't see the typical battlepod as more advanced and instinctively maneuverable than an alpha personally but YMMV.

In general terms, if you're looking at the OSM spec and animation... you'll usually notice the Macross mecha are a lot more nimble and responsive than the stuff in the other two shows (not always, the bioroids of Southern Cross are an alarmingly fast lot). It's mostly issues due to tech setting and influences from other robot shows on that front.

Any thoughts on using autododge bonuses for a passive AC-style buff? One thing I forgot to mention is that for units with only autododge bonuses, they'd get a standard dodge bonus equal to it for when they decide to use an action to dodge.

Personally, I'd stick to an active auto-dodge... but that's because my own games already have a number of passive defensive buffs and I don't want to add any more heavy math on top of active radar stealth, passive stealth, anti-beam coatings, and so on.

[jaymz]

bielmic - I think the static add to the hit umber is workable as long as the players are ok with it. Of course they'll be constantly asking you for those "penalties". personally I just find it easier to let them do active rolls. less work on my end in some ways that way.

[bielmic]

bielmic - I think the static add to the hit umber is workable as long as the players are ok with it. Of course they'll be constantly asking you for those "penalties". personally I just find it easier to let them do active rolls. less work on my end in some ways that way.

It's unanimous.. since I'm the only person so far! In any case, most PC's in a macross setting (my preferred one) would be in Veritechs so not much issue there (just one number for all of us to remember). As for attacking, they'd need to tell me regardless what they rolled to hit and I'd just compare it with the autododge added value (instead of a flat 8 for ranged attacks). Except for borderline cases (and 9-15 roughly), it's no different and I'd have the stats on my sheet anyways. It's basically analogous to increasing the ranged AC from 8 to 8 plus your autododge bonus.

[guardiandashi]

bielmic - I think the static add to the hit umber is workable as long as the players are ok with it. Of course they'll be constantly asking you for those "penalties". personally I just find it easier to let them do active rolls. less work on my end in some ways that way.

It's unanimous.. since I'm the only person so far! In any case, most PC's in a macross setting (my preferred one) would be in Veritechs so not much issue there (just one number for all of us to remember). As for attacking, they'd need to tell me regardless what they rolled to hit and I'd just compare it with the autododge added value (instead of a flat 8 for ranged attacks). Except for borderline cases (and 9-15 roughly), it's no different and I'd have the stats on my sheet anyways. It's basically analogous to increasing the ranged AC from 8 to 8 plus your autododge bonus.

re the attacks from earlier, the way I always read it is you add all applicable attacks together

example I have a micronized meltran (macross II version of female zentradi) ps 32, pp 27, pe 30 HTH martial arts Valkyrie fighter pilot occ physical skills gymnastics, and boxing when running around without a mecha at 1st level I would have 5 total attacks per melee (basically 1 every 3 seconds) if I had veritech combat training I would have 7 attacks /melee (old robotech rpg 5th printing) or per the shadow chronicles book with an alpha (pg 105) +1 attack /melee at levels 1, 3, 6, 9,12, and 15 while piloting the fighter so not counting any bonus attacks from H2H it would be 6 attacks in the alpha at 1st, 7 @ 3rd, 8 @ 6, 9 @ 9, 10 @ 12, and 13 @ 15
of course martial arts gets an additional attack at 4th, 9th, and 14th which makes the actual attacks /melee out of mecha / alpha 1st 5/6, 3rd 5/7 4th 6/8 6th 6/9 9th 7/11 12th 7/12 14th 8/13 15th 8/14

[bielmic]

re the attacks from earlier, the way I always read it is you add all applicable attacks together

That is the way you *traditionally* do it in Palladium systems but in Robotech 2e it doesn't actually say that anywhere I found. Also, there are small but fundamentally important differences between Macross II's rules and Robotech 2e (see the discussion earlier about autododge). I don't recall what is written exactly in Macross II either but we did it the same way you did back when we played... but I don't recall if that is exactly what the rules tell you to do or not. For new players, concise and clear rules are a big help and I suspect that's partly why there aren't many new players.

[guardiandashi]

re the attacks from earlier, the way I always read it is you add all applicable attacks together

That is the way you *traditionally* do it in Palladium systems but in Robotech 2e it doesn't actually say that anywhere I found. Also, there are small but fundamentally important differences between Macross II's rules and Robotech 2e (see the discussion earlier about autododge). I don't recall what is written exactly in Macross II either but we did it the same way you did back when we played... but I don't recall if that is exactly what the rules tell you to do or not. For new players, concise and clear rules are a big help and I suspect that's partly why there aren't many new players.

I am not 100% sure if the shadow chronicles book counts as robotech 2nd edition or not, mine is 1st printing 2008 (the funky ~manga sized book) but pg 228 and scattered through it everywhere I find attacks and bonuses, it mentions char attacks, and bonuses, and what bonuses the mecha ADDS to the characters stats(relevant phrasing in that book, for attacks is: a melee round is 15 seconds each char will have so many attacks per melee or melee round. the number of attacks per melee round comes from their hand to hand combat skill. Having mecha Elite combat adds additional attacks and bonuses to strike parry, etc while in the mecha.

which to my mind is pretty clear that that book follows the traditional rules unless otherwise specified.

[jaymz]

re the attacks from earlier, the way I always read it is you add all applicable attacks together

That is the way you *traditionally* do it in Palladium systems but in Robotech 2e it doesn't actually say that anywhere I found. Also, there are small but fundamentally important differences between Macross II's rules and Robotech 2e (see the discussion earlier about autododge). I don't recall what is written exactly in Macross II either but we did it the same way you did back when we played... but I don't recall if that is exactly what the rules tell you to do or not. For new players, concise and clear rules are a big help and I suspect that's partly why there aren't many new players.

I am not 100% sure if the shadow chronicles book counts as robotech 2nd edition or not, mine is 1st printing 2008 (the funky ~manga sized book) but pg 228 and scattered through it everywhere I find attacks and bonuses, it mentions char attacks, and bonuses, and what bonuses the mecha ADDS to the characters stats(relevant phrasing in that book, for attacks is: a melee round is 15 seconds each char will have so many attacks per melee or melee round. the number of attacks per melee round comes from their hand to hand combat skill. Having mecha Elite combat adds additional attacks and bonuses to strike parry, etc while in the mecha.

which to my mind is pretty clear that that book follows the traditional rules unless otherwise specified.

Shadow Chronicles is referred to as Robotech 2nd edition because it is the second time Palladium has produced a Robotech RPG. The original was published in the 80s and maintained up until the late 90's with a total of 14 books or between Robotech and Robotech II The Sentinels.

[MilkManX]

The new rules made my head spin more than the old one. I finally just house ruled the tar out of it. My players love it that way.