The Summoners Problem

[The Dark Elf]

"Do not do anything that in your own, HONEST, opinion you TRULY believe that you HONESTLY think I would be displeased with."

Let he GM rangle that one.

Any vicious attempt to sabotage in anyway would probably go against this command.

There are obvious ones like dont speak/kill/use PPE/ISP/leave my vacinity/metamorphosis unless I command you to....

[gdub411]

One could always go safe and summon animals, then ya don't have to worry about them being so treacherous.

[Galroth]

One could always go safe and summon animals, then ya don't have to worry about them being so treacherous.

Or elementals and spirits of light. If you don't want your summoned creature to be spiteful or treacherous don't summon creatures known for those traits.

[Reagren Wright]

It all depends how vindictive and twisted your G.M. can be . My players now I've a
big fan of the Wishmaster series and how I love to twists commands you give to demons and
deevils. For example, one my players summons a deevil. He wins the battle of wills and tells the
deevil you are to assume the shape of an elf and never reveal your true deevil appearance.
Okay that goes along fine. Later on the party gets hungry and the summoner tells the deevil go
get us a deer that we can eat. So the deevil does this. What the deevil didn't tell his master is
he stole a fresh kill from a herd of Tuskers. The dominate male was not to happy about it. The
deevil then rips parts of the deer off and made a trail back to the wagon. So the deevil gets
back with the fresh kill and the party starts cooking and eating it. Suddenly someones
sixth sense goes off. The party is thinking its a bunch of bandits. The summoners says defend
me against out attackers. So the dozen Tuskers show up and start savaging the party.
The deevil asks the summoner. "Are these tuskers the enemies you where talking about?" Brent
says, and I quote, "No, but they are going to kill me so you have to protect me from
their attack." So the deevil says, "As you wish master." The deevil picks up the summoner and
leaps away, leaving the party to be further savaged by the angry tuskers. . All I can say
is the party was not to happy with Brent and his pet. And this was just one of the many things
the G.M. (me) did that put the kibosh on anyone else in my group wanting to make a
summoner. A new guy was actually thinking about it and two of my guys practically jumped
over the table and threatened him .

[Reagren Wright]

"Do not do anything that in your own, HONEST, opinion you TRULY believe that you HONESTLY think I would be displeased with."

Let he GM rangle that one.

Any vicious attempt to sabotage in anyway would probably go against this command.

There are obvious ones like dont speak/kill/use PPE/ISP/leave my vacinity/metamorphosis unless I command you to....

Hmm I like that one. It makes the deevil or demon focus primarily on the motives and behavior of
the player character. And you allowing the deevil or demon to based his decisions on its definition
of HONESTY and the master's displeasure (G.M. rubs his hands together).

[The Beast]

Hi all together!
First: I'm new here in this Forum, so i want to say hello to everyone.
Second: i'm from Germany, so i have to say sorry for my Bad english before
I start my first question...
Third ( my question ): do somebody have a good Instruction that i have to
Tell a summoned deamon.
After the battle of will, i must tell him what he is allowed to do and what not.
So i need a "short" sentence, i can tell the deamons or monsters which i have summoned so
He/she will not take me for a ride.
Any Idea?
Nordi

If you ever need help with explaining something here, or having something explained to you and the language is getting in the way, I'm fairly sure Nelly would be willing to help out.

[Nelly]

Hi all together!
First: I'm new here in this Forum, so i want to say hello to everyone.
Second: i'm from Germany, so i have to say sorry for my Bad english before
I start my first question...
Third ( my question ): do somebody have a good Instruction that i have to
Tell a summoned deamon.
After the battle of will, i must tell him what he is allowed to do and what not.
So i need a "short" sentence, i can tell the deamons or monsters which i have summoned so
He/she will not take me for a ride.
Any Idea?
Nordi

If you ever need help with explaining something here, or having something explained to you and the language is getting in the way, I'm fairly sure Nelly would be willing to help out.

Yep, absolutely. Not a problem at all.

Nordinsel, wo bist du denn her? Schade das du nicht mehr gepostet hast.

"Do not do anything that in your own, HONEST, opinion you TRULY believe that you HONESTLY think I would be displeased with."

Let he GM rangle that one.

Any vicious attempt to sabotage in anyway would probably go against this command.

There are obvious ones like dont speak/kill/use PPE/ISP/leave my vacinity/metamorphosis unless I command you to....

I am so going to use that one!

[Starmage21]

I come at this problem from 2 directions:

Dont ask the minion to do anything that would be directly distasteful to it. If you summon a Spirit of Light, dont ask it to do evil things.

And make it clear as your primary directive that it must wait within earshot for commands, and must otherwise do nothing except engage those who assault you or allies in combat unless otherwise ordered.

That aside, minions are most likely your primary means of interacting in game systems aside from skill use. Your GM should not screw you every which way from Sunday for using them appropriately in combat and to defeat challenges. Doing little things to keep things interesting here and there is always fun, but you should not be screwed for using them as befits your class.

That said, once a summoning circle is drawn and activated, unless closed anyone who has 5 PPE can use it. A wizard with no levels in Summoner who uses an active circle technically has no way to control a being he summons with the circle. He must bargain with it instead. So that is a way you can cause trouble for your summoner players if they dont take care what they do with their circles.

[Soldier of Od]

Here's my two cents:

Demons are the best creatures to summon, as they are already accustomed to being subservient and following orders as part of the strict hierarchy in Hades. Sub-demons especially. Like it says in the book, make sure you have a strict pecking order. If you summon a lesser demon at level two, once you reach level four you can reward the demon’s loyalty by summoning a lower class demon or sub-demon and allowing your first demon to have seniority over it (not total control you understand, more like: ‘Shedim! Command the Gargoylite to steal that noble’s purse for me!’). Make sure you can give the demons missions that they will enjoy, and rewards that they covet.

Gurgoyles are my favourite sentries, bodyguards and fighters, as they have relatively low IQ and less innate deviousness. As one of the lowest of sub-demons they are pretty used to being ordered around. They are shorter than the Shedim, Gargoyles and others, so easier to hide or even pass off as an ogre or similar if concealed by a hooded cloak. At a distance. In the dark. And they are incredibly strong and fast. Lots of bang for your buck.

Alu are great for tracking, hunting and assassination. Their most useful ability is to turn invisible at will, making it much easier to travel with a twelve foot demon! But they are also more likely to get bored and/or harbour plans of betrayal, so keep them occupied and give them some authority.

Everyone needs a sneaky thief type creature, and the demons offer three options: Gargoylites, as sub-demons, can be ordered around by the regular demons, and can be easily bribed into staying loyal to the summoner if they can offer them a suitable reward of precious stones (even if the prize involves a heist using the Gargoylite itself). Lasae are easy minions to conceal as they are small and can climb, prowl and turn invisible, making great spies and thieves. Couril can fly, and have some really useful magic, but maybe more disloyal; the summoner may have to think carefully about rewarding the Couril with silver or music – perhaps they should learn the flute!

If you really need wings and power, the Gargoyle is the way to go. They are only a ‘lesser’ creature for summoning purposes, so you could summon two of them for the cost of one Baalrog. And again, as sub-demons, they are technically ‘inferior’ to the lesser demons and know their place. But they are massive and difficult to hide, and powerful should they decide they don’t like your orders anymore.

Succubus and incubus are great for the fact that they can have human appearance and therefore be by your side at all times as a ‘companion’ or bodyguard. But they are born manipulators and killers, so are difficult to control unless you allowed them to seduce and kill innocents while in your employment.

At a higher level I would even recommend summoning a ghoul for no other reason than to give the other demons a victim to bully and take their frustrations out on, making themselves seem a little less enslaved than they truly are. It might save you some trouble in the long run.

Deevils are just too tricky. Sure, they are more powerful than demons, but why go through all the hassle of having every order intentionally ‘misinterpreted’ and every loophole exploited. They probably won’t even try to escape or kill you, as they will be enjoying the frustration inflicted on you too much.

Try not to summon any demon that your player group can’t best in a fight. This will help ensure the demon’s loyalty. I would steer clear of summoning any greater demons or deevils at all. They are the ones giving the orders, not taking them. Perhaps if you become a high enough level you can try a Baalrog or a Gallu, but you had better give it some fun stuff to do and some minions to bully! Don’t ever summon a Jinn, Raksasha or Deevil Serpent. Ever. What were you thinking?

One thing to think about is to start as you mean to go on: perhaps have a gift of some kind ready for the demon when you summon it - jewels or silver if appropriate, or – perhaps the best option – a captured person for the demon to torture or kill (or eat!) if you are of evil alignment. Or you can take the other tack and be forceful – don’t be afraid to order and bully your lesser demons around, especially if you have powerful companions, magic or some other reason for them to fear you. Lesser demons respect power and authority and are used to being led in a commanding manner.

It helps if you are evil too and don’t need to prevent the demons from following their natural urges. At the very least, they should not be stopped from killing their opponents in battle if they want to (maybe briefly restrained while the victim is questioned and then let loose to finish them off). It will just frustrate them and sow the seeds of dissention.

If you are of good alignment then elementals are the way to go. Just make sure they are given very simple, easy to follow, logical instructions. And – despite the immense power available to you should you summon major elementals – I would always stick with minors, as you do not want to find yourself suddenly unable to control an angry greater elemental! Don’t bite off more than you can chew. Minor air elementals are almost the perfect minion, as they are powerful, cannot be harmed by normal weapons but can harm others, have magic, are invisible and can hang around in the sky above you awaiting orders. The biggest problem with summoning elementals, however, is the reactions of the warlocks who realise you are enslaving their ‘brothers’. Even with an invisible air elemental, warlocks can automatically see and sense them, and will be none too pleased with the summoner.

The other alternative for a good summoner is to summon good aligned, intelligent beings and make a deal with them. Maybe the kukulkan or angel will be willing to work alongside the summoner to defeat the evil witch that the summoner is going up against. This is really best achieved if the creature can tell the summoner’s alignment and have him swear an oath. However, should an evil or anarchist summoner attempt to manipulate the creatures for his own reasons these powerful and intelligent beings will not be easily duped.

Faerie folks have powerful magic, but can be extremely tricky, plus if travelling in the wilderness you are more likely to encounter other faeries than, say, demons, which is likely to cause problems for you. If you want a fairy, my advice is to summon a couril instead.

I find entities and spectres, though useful and powerful (and invisible), to be difficult creatures to control, as many of them exist only ‘to inflict pain and suffering on humans’; they are a little too alien even compared to demons, so it is more difficult to pander to their needs. Best suited to short term missions, where they can be forced to do the summoner’s bidding and then banished when their work is done. Keep a priest handy.

Lastly, don’t underestimate summoning animals. It is always good to have a steed that will follow your every instruction, and an attack dog can be as useful against everyday opponents as a demon, and are a perfectly acceptable companion in a town. There are also a number of ‘monstrous’ animals available that can be summoned, providing power without the problems of an intelligent being. Such animals include acid lizards, chimera, catopleba, devil diggers, dragondactyls, gruunor, gryphons, peryton, scorpion devils, silonar, suckers, timrek and tuskers. Who doesn’t want a pet tusker?

Oh, and summon undead means you can get yourself a Yema to ride. That’s the stuff right there.

[The Dark Elf]

Here's my two cents:

I think you got the exchange rate wrong...

Seriously though great advice!

You forgot to mention not to let your gurgoyle steal your summoning supplies to prevent you from summoning something else and thereby killing it as youve no longer any need for him.

And - always have the words "cancel your globe of silence" spell written on a piece on paper ready to hand for when the quick thinking summoned being ignores your commands and starts to kill you as he cant hear you command it to stop!

[Soldier of Od]

Here's my two cents:

I think you got the exchange rate wrong...

Seriously though great advice!

You forgot to mention not to let your gurgoyle steal your summoning supplies to prevent you from summoning something else and thereby killing it as youve no longer any need for him.

And - always have the words "cancel your globe of silence" spell written on a piece on paper ready to hand for when the quick thinking summoned being ignores your commands and starts to kill you as he cant hear you command it to stop!

yeah, globe of silence - I was quite proud of that one! and it almost worked!

[robertbc73]

If I used demons I used succubuses. And then threw the sex craved player at her when she wanted to go what she wanted. If not the demon I used elementals mostly for building (castle built by earth eles) and grip leapers for animals. Love the grip leapers if you can get away knowing about them ( I was a summoner in rifts so I was lucky there).

[Tor]

"Do not do anything that in your own, HONEST, opinion you TRULY believe that you HONESTLY think I would be displeased with."

"Well master, I was going to enter the bar and eat that guy who tried to stab you with the dagger, but I thought that in spite of you being for the most part, overwhelmingly grateful that your life was saved, that you might be a teensy bit displeased that my dark frightening appearance could have frightened that bar maid you appeared to fancy, so as a precaution I decided to leave it up to you about whether or not you wanted me to protect you in this particular situation."

Jinn aren't worth the hassle

I dunno, as soon as you "capture" or "save" a Jinn under your control, you can release it from the Battle of Wills as one of your 2/level guys, and still have them be your slaves.

The secret is: never wish for anything. They still have to accompany you, making them meat shields that might be targetted by anything that can sense them. They may even be forced to aid you in battle out of a sense of self-preservation.

That said, being intangible elemental ghosties, I'm sure they get quite good at hiding in the shadows allowing potential threats to take out their masters.

Another good invester for a summoner: one of the greater demons or deevils able to select a super psionic of choice. Get Mind Bond. You're forbidden from commanding your minions to tell you their own true names... no restrictions about commanding minions to tell you OTHER minions' true names. Plus once you get those, no more willpower needed, presumably.

Although I think the Dyval sourcebook said something about there can only be 1 'name master' at a time, so presumably let's say you knew a deevil's true name, it could free itself of your control by telling another person its name. Although you could command it to avoid doing that... so I dunno. Other summoners with a similar strategy or other demons/deevils with mind bond out to learn true names could try that as well to steal your minions back.

Or elementals and spirits of light. If you don't want your summoned creature to be spiteful or treacherous don't summon creatures known for those traits.

Spirits of light can opt to turn on you if you commit a deed that offends them though, so they still carry many of the risks. One thing I love about Elementals is as soon as they win the battle of wills, they ALWAYS leave (unless you enslave other elementals, in which case, release them immediately).

I would always stick with minors, as you do not want to find yourself suddenly unable to control an angry greater elemental!

Even if elementals get angry, the book's pretty clear that when they're able to, they'll simply just leave. Warlocks are actually in greater danger from angry elementals than summoners are, because warlocks can apparently keep them here against their will, and they may kill a warlock to be released from the mortal plane.

Elementals that can actually work up the willpower to defy a summoner can just immediately port home. I'm not sure how that works with minor elementals though since they lack the dimensional teleport power of the majors.

[Soldier of Od]

"Do not do anything that in your own, HONEST, opinion you TRULY believe that you HONESTLY think I would be displeased with."

"Well master, I was going to enter the bar and eat that guy who tried to stab you with the dagger, but I thought that in spite of you being for the most part, overwhelmingly grateful that your life was saved, that you might be a teensy bit displeased that my dark frightening appearance could have frightened that bar maid you appeared to fancy, so as a precaution I decided to leave it up to you about whether or not you wanted me to protect you in this particular situation."

That's great - exactly what I would want it to do. I would much rather have a summoned creature stand by and do nothing while I have to face a foe alone than to take an action without my consent. If I hadn't already planned upon a way to communicate with my summoned creature to let it know when I wanted it to step in and fight for me then that is my own fault.

I would always stick with minors, as you do not want to find yourself suddenly unable to control an angry greater elemental!

Even if elementals get angry, the book's pretty clear that when they're able to, they'll simply just leave. Warlocks are actually in greater danger from angry elementals than summoners are, because warlocks can apparently keep them here against their will, and they may kill a warlock to be released from the mortal plane.

Yeah, I just took a look and I guess I missed that. Still, a major elemental is not a creature I would want to risk having. One misunderstood instruction could level a whole town!

[Tyberius]

As a GM I'd love to have a summoner character. Lots of opportunity to work with something fun. Now, I'd expect that a low level Summoner start easy. Summon minors, animals, etc. And work their way up. Going straight for something crazy, with a nasty disposition, trickery, yea, I'd mess with them a lot on that. You're not going to give a level 2 Longbowman a plus 10 to strike flaming rune longbow, so you shouldn't let a summoner bring in something overpowered right off the bat. RP the character as learning to control his minions. Put opportunity to make mistakes, and for the minions to misbehave a little hear and there, but not with dire consequences. But if they make big mistakes, then there should be an equal penalty.

[The Dark Elf]

I would always stick with minors, as you do not want to find yourself suddenly unable to control an angry greater elemental!

Even if elementals get angry, the book's pretty clear that when they're able to, they'll simply just leave. Warlocks are actually in greater danger from angry elementals than summoners are, because warlocks can apparently keep them here against their will, and they may kill a warlock to be released from the mortal plane.

Yeah, I just took a look and I guess I missed that. Still, a major elemental is not a creature I would want to risk having. One misunderstood instruction could level a whole town!

A major air elemental might cause a storm before he leaves or a fire elemental a river of lava just a show of disgruntlement...

[Starmage21]

As a GM I'd love to have a summoner character. Lots of opportunity to work with something fun. Now, I'd expect that a low level Summoner start easy. Summon minors, animals, etc. And work their way up. Going straight for something crazy, with a nasty disposition, trickery, yea, I'd mess with them a lot on that. You're not going to give a level 2 Longbowman a plus 10 to strike flaming rune longbow, so you shouldn't let a summoner bring in something overpowered right off the bat. RP the character as learning to control his minions. Put opportunity to make mistakes, and for the minions to misbehave a little hear and there, but not with dire consequences. But if they make big mistakes, then there should be an equal penalty.

You start level 1 without being able to summon anything at all. Level 2-3 you only get 1 minor-level minion which can be a lot of really really useful things. Then at level 4, you get the greater being, or two minors.

The animal summoning circle is kind of expensive, whereas you can summon gargoyles with crap you can find in a typical forest (a small lizard, and mud...)