Combating Muchkinism Preconception

[Akashic Soldier]

Okay I'm reading Rifts Workd Book 2: Atlantis and I'm in love with True Alanteans and I want to play one as my next player character.

Problem is that they're staple as "free power" but I honestly just love their history, write u and mentality. So my question is...

How do I show that I am more interested in the Rping opertunitites and NOT the "human but wif cool POWAHHHHs!" preconception that I'm bound to run into due to the notoriety of this R.C.C among problematic munchkin players.

[Looonatic]

As a GM, an in-depth back story and character description goes a long way with me. One of my players talked me into allowing a Demi-god cyber-knight because he came up with the coolest origin and development for his character.

As a player, I find that odd combinations also help. I created a Sea Titan Ludicrous Mage called Speckles The Clown that met with my GM's approval, merely because I had managed the most bizarre and entertaining background he had ever heard.


Another thing to bear in mind is the types of characters in the rest of the party. High-powered characters and low-powered characters are easy to GM for, but mixing the two together can be a challenge for most GMs.

[Nightmask]

Depending on the GM it may not be possible if they're too sold on 'oh no that's an unbalanced race!'. If they aren't though you probably best need to play up what you hope to bring to the table to improve the RP experience for everyone and make the game fun for everyone and like Loonatic says a good back-story and detailed character description.

[keir451]

Depending on the GM it may not be possible if they're too sold on 'oh no that's an unbalanced race!'. If they aren't though you probably best need to play up what you hope to bring to the table to improve the RP experience for everyone and make the game fun for everyone and like Loonatic says a good back-story and detailed character description.

[flatline]

Slightly better than human stats
Faster PPE regeneration (only matters if you can't draw from the unsuspecting)
Enhanced longevity.
Some trivial pyramid related abilities.
Marks of heritage (cost 2xPPE for any non-T-man, making them pretty useless)
Free languages and literacy (yay!)
Other than that, pretty much completely human.

I've never understood why some consider them a "twinked" or "munchkin" race. They are one of my favorite races, just slightly edging out Changelings. The enhanced PPE regen is handy sometimes and the free literacy is AWESOME, freeing up slots for other skills (I never seem to have enough skill slots...if I roll up major psionics, I almost always volunteer to downgrade to a minor psionic just to keep the skills).

Also, for some reason, I am drawn to races with long life expectancies even though I've never had old age be a problem.

Undead Slayers, however, are best reserved for high power campaigns.

--flatline

[DhAkael]

-ahem-
True Atlanteans (especially the Undead Slayer caste) are, well... they're actualy just above average far as my campiagn is concerend.
There are SDC being that can give an A.U.S. a run for their money; no word of a lie a crazy dressed in just combat shorts and T-shirt with a vibro-knife SEVERELY messed up one when a situation turned into a PvP.
Thing is, the Crazy PC didn't even use the vibro knife on the Atlantean; just a jar of pickles, a bar drink sprayer and 30 ft. of 'The Velvet rope' from outside the night-club they were at.

Brains over stats any day.

[keir451]

-ahem-
True Atlanteans (especially the Undead Slayer caste) are, well... they're actualy just above average far as my campiagn is concerend.
There are SDC being that can give an A.U.S. a run for their money; no word of a lie a crazy dressed in just combat shorts and T-shirt with a vibro-knife SEVERELY messed up one when a situation turned into a PvP.
Thing is, the Crazy PC didn't even use the vibro knife on the Atlantean; just a jar of pickles, a bar drink sprayer and 30 ft. of 'The Velvet rope' from outside the night-club they were at.

Brains over stats any day.

I can just imagine!! (Of course that's the point of imagination ).

[Killer Cyborg]

Slightly better than human stats
Faster PPE regeneration (only matters if you can't draw from the unsuspecting)
Enhanced longevity.
Some trivial pyramid related abilities.
Marks of heritage (cost 2xPPE for any non-T-man, making them pretty useless)
Free languages and literacy (yay!)
Other than that, pretty much completely human.

I've never understood why some consider them a "twinked" or "munchkin" race.

Slightly better than human stats
Faster PPE regeneration (only matters if you can't draw from the unsuspecting)
Enhanced longevity.
Some trivial pyramid related abilities.
Marks of heritage (cost 2xPPE for any non-T-man, making them pretty useless)
Free languages and literacy (yay!)
Other than that, pretty much completely human.

In short, they have all the advantages that humans have, plus a bit more.

In a party of dragons, that's no big deal.
In a party of humans, it can be.

[llywelyn]

Okay I'm reading Rifts Workd Book 2: Atlantis and I'm in love with True Alanteans and I want to play one as my next player character.

Problem is that they're staple as "free power" but I honestly just love their history, write u and mentality. So my question is...

How do I show that I am more interested in the Rping opertunitites and NOT the "human but wif cool POWAHHHHs!" preconception that I'm bound to run into due to the notoriety of this R.C.C among problematic munchkin players.

If this was a serious question, stat them as a human and call them Atlantean.

Problem solved.

[Akashic Soldier]

Okay I'm reading Rifts Workd Book 2: Atlantis and I'm in love with True Alanteans and I want to play one as my next player character.

Problem is that they're staple as "free power" but I honestly just love their history, write u and mentality. So my question is...

How do I show that I am more interested in the Rping opertunitites and NOT the "human but wif cool POWAHHHHs!" preconception that I'm bound to run into due to the notoriety of this R.C.C among problematic munchkin players.

If this was a serious question, stat them as a human and call them Atlantean.

Problem solved.

Good idea. I'll make the character twice, once as a True Altantean another as a human "Atlantean"

[llywelyn]

Good idea. I'll make the character twice, once as a True Altantean another as a human "Atlantean"

Then, if the GM keeps the True Atlanteans fully statted for the NPCs but only lets you use the human level one, you have your backstory:

you're an Atlantean redneck.

[Killer Cyborg]

Okay I'm reading Rifts Workd Book 2: Atlantis and I'm in love with True Alanteans and I want to play one as my next player character.

Problem is that they're staple as "free power" but I honestly just love their history, write u and mentality. So my question is...

How do I show that I am more interested in the Rping opertunitites and NOT the "human but wif cool POWAHHHHs!" preconception that I'm bound to run into due to the notoriety of this R.C.C among problematic munchkin players.

If this was a serious question, stat them as a human and call them Atlantean.

Problem solved.

That's what we did before the Atlantis book came out, come to think of it.

[Nightmask]

Slightly better than human stats
Faster PPE regeneration (only matters if you can't draw from the unsuspecting)
Enhanced longevity.
Some trivial pyramid related abilities.
Marks of heritage (cost 2xPPE for any non-T-man, making them pretty useless)
Free languages and literacy (yay!)
Other than that, pretty much completely human.

I've never understood why some consider them a "twinked" or "munchkin" race.

Slightly better than human stats
Faster PPE regeneration (only matters if you can't draw from the unsuspecting)
Enhanced longevity.
Some trivial pyramid related abilities.
Marks of heritage (cost 2xPPE for any non-T-man, making them pretty useless)
Free languages and literacy (yay!)
Other than that, pretty much completely human.

In short, they have all the advantages that humans have, plus a bit more.

In a party of dragons, that's no big deal.
In a party of humans, it can be.

Still not that big a deal. Lifespan has little bearing unless you're in a party of juicers, the pyramid abilities require you actually find a pyramid to work with, and the rest is still pretty trivial (the languages and literacy one can manage with an OCC heavy into that or with large skill selections). Depending on the OCC selection of the rest of the party the Atlantean is likely to be comparable to or even weaker in comparison depending even if everyone else is baseline human.

[Killer Cyborg]

Slightly better than human stats
Faster PPE regeneration (only matters if you can't draw from the unsuspecting)
Enhanced longevity.
Some trivial pyramid related abilities.
Marks of heritage (cost 2xPPE for any non-T-man, making them pretty useless)
Free languages and literacy (yay!)
Other than that, pretty much completely human.

I've never understood why some consider them a "twinked" or "munchkin" race.

Slightly better than human stats
Faster PPE regeneration (only matters if you can't draw from the unsuspecting)
Enhanced longevity.
Some trivial pyramid related abilities.
Marks of heritage (cost 2xPPE for any non-T-man, making them pretty useless)
Free languages and literacy (yay!)
Other than that, pretty much completely human.

In short, they have all the advantages that humans have, plus a bit more.

In a party of dragons, that's no big deal.
In a party of humans, it can be.

Still not that big a deal.

Agreed- it's not that big a deal.
But it's a race that essentially makes normal humans obsolete, which is why it's seen as munchy.

Lifespan has little bearing unless you're in a party of juicers, the pyramid abilities require you actually find a pyramid to work with, and the rest is still pretty trivial (the languages and literacy one can manage with an OCC heavy into that or with large skill selections). Depending on the OCC selection of the rest of the party the Atlantean is likely to be comparable to or even weaker in comparison depending even if everyone else is baseline human.

Right- depending on the OCC selection.
But you take an Atlantean and a normal human with the same OCCs, which one has the edge?
The Atlantean, as a rule.
There are exceptions, but those are the exceptions.
Which is why I said that in a party of humans, it can be a big deal.

[Bill]

Convince your GM that the default race for the game should be Atlantean. It's working pretty well for my game.

[Nightmask]

Slightly better than human stats
Faster PPE regeneration (only matters if you can't draw from the unsuspecting)
Enhanced longevity.
Some trivial pyramid related abilities.
Marks of heritage (cost 2xPPE for any non-T-man, making them pretty useless)
Free languages and literacy (yay!)
Other than that, pretty much completely human.

In short, they have all the advantages that humans have, plus a bit more.

In a party of dragons, that's no big deal.
In a party of humans, it can be.

Still not that big a deal.

Agreed- it's not that big a deal.
But it's a race that essentially makes normal humans obsolete, which is why it's seen as munchy.

Which is pretty ridiculous, both for thinking it somehow makes humans worthless or munchkin (and I'm sure you remember my feelings about that particular label). Atlanteans also have downsides, they continue to grow in size as they age, playing an older character means trouble finding stuff in your size. They certainly don't have anything close to what it would take to actually render humans obsolete. They don't even reproduce at anything close to the rate humans do, which is often a point we see in fantasy where humans are excelling where the ancient races like elves (and elves are much like Atlanteans in that regard) are failing to keep up in spite of being supposedly superior.

Lifespan has little bearing unless you're in a party of juicers, the pyramid abilities require you actually find a pyramid to work with, and the rest is still pretty trivial (the languages and literacy one can manage with an OCC heavy into that or with large skill selections). Depending on the OCC selection of the rest of the party the Atlantean is likely to be comparable to or even weaker in comparison depending even if everyone else is baseline human.

Right- depending on the OCC selection.
But you take an Atlantean and a normal human with the same OCCs, which one has the edge?
The Atlantean, as a rule.
There are exceptions, but those are the exceptions.
Which is why I said that in a party of humans, it can be a big deal.

Too much 'my PC is bigger than your PC' thinking going on, not enough 'our party is the biggest, baddest dudes around!'. All that energy wasted insisting someone else's character has to be inferior to or no better than how you perceive your character to be as if everyone in the party is going to fight each other than band together against the threats the entire GM world will throw at them. I just don't see how such groups manage to survive when the players are spending so much time trying to keep everyone else from being 'better' than them instead of actually bettering themselves and the people who're there in part to keep your PC alive.

[flatline]

I play a human in real life, why would I want to play a human in-game?

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

Slightly better than human stats
Faster PPE regeneration (only matters if you can't draw from the unsuspecting)
Enhanced longevity.
Some trivial pyramid related abilities.
Marks of heritage (cost 2xPPE for any non-T-man, making them pretty useless)
Free languages and literacy (yay!)
Other than that, pretty much completely human.

In short, they have all the advantages that humans have, plus a bit more.

In a party of dragons, that's no big deal.
In a party of humans, it can be.

Still not that big a deal.

Agreed- it's not that big a deal.
But it's a race that essentially makes normal humans obsolete, which is why it's seen as munchy.

Which is pretty ridiculous, both for thinking it somehow makes humans worthless or munchkin (and I'm sure you remember my feelings about that particular label). Atlanteans also have downsides, they continue to grow in size as they age, playing an older character means trouble finding stuff in your size. They certainly don't have anything close to what it would take to actually render humans obsolete. They don't even reproduce at anything close to the rate humans do, which is often a point we see in fantasy where humans are excelling where the ancient races like elves (and elves are much like Atlanteans in that regard) are failing to keep up in spite of being supposedly superior.

Yeah, so basically nothing that viagra and some bigger clothes can't fix.
I guess that balances out the:
-better than human stats
-better PPE regeneration (only matters if you can't draw from the unsuspecting)
-enhanced longevity.
-pyramid related abilities.
-Free languages and literacy

Only not so much.

Find a compelling reason to take a human character over a non-human character, one that has to do with gaming mechanics, not flavor.
If you can, then maybe I'm wrong.
But I don't think that you can.

Atlanteans can do everything that normal humans can, plus more.
Why buy car A when car B has all the same stuff, plus more, at the same price?

But you take an Atlantean and a normal human with the same OCCs, which one has the edge?
The Atlantean, as a rule.
There are exceptions, but those are the exceptions.
Which is why I said that in a party of humans, it can be a big deal.

Too much 'my PC is bigger than your PC' thinking going on, not enough 'our party is the biggest, baddest dudes around!'.

Well, that's how munchkins work.
Which is why they like OCCs like Atlanteans.

All that energy wasted insisting someone else's character has to be inferior to or no better than how you perceive your character to be as if everyone in the party is going to fight each other than band together against the threats the entire GM world will throw at them.

It's not about that.
It's about situations where one guy's character can do everything that another character can, PLUS has special abilities on top of it.
It's not that hard for a GM to balance out, but it does require balance.

[Killer Cyborg]

I play a human in real life, why would I want to play a human in-game?

--flatline

Interesting statement.
Care to elaborate?

[Nightmask]

Which is pretty ridiculous, both for thinking it somehow makes humans worthless or munchkin (and I'm sure you remember my feelings about that particular label). Atlanteans also have downsides, they continue to grow in size as they age, playing an older character means trouble finding stuff in your size. They certainly don't have anything close to what it would take to actually render humans obsolete. They don't even reproduce at anything close to the rate humans do, which is often a point we see in fantasy where humans are excelling where the ancient races like elves (and elves are much like Atlanteans in that regard) are failing to keep up in spite of being supposedly superior.

Yeah, so basically nothing that viagra and some bigger clothes can't fix.
I guess that balances out the:
-better than human stats
-better PPE regeneration (only matters if you can't draw from the unsuspecting)
-enhanced longevity.
-pyramid related abilities.
-Free languages and literacy

Only not so much.

Find a compelling reason to take a human character over a non-human character, one that has to do with gaming mechanics, not flavor.
If you can, then maybe I'm wrong.
But I don't think that you can.

Atlanteans can do everything that normal humans can, plus more.
Why buy car A when car B has all the same stuff, plus more, at the same price?

Sorry but yes you would be wrong in this case as the Atlantean race just doesn't draw me compared to a human or other non-human sorts. I've looked at them but they just didn't come off all that interesting to me, not surprising since I don't pick based on who has more powers than someone else but what I find entertaining to play.

But you take an Atlantean and a normal human with the same OCCs, which one has the edge?
The Atlantean, as a rule.
There are exceptions, but those are the exceptions.
Which is why I said that in a party of humans, it can be a big deal.

Too much 'my PC is bigger than your PC' thinking going on, not enough 'our party is the biggest, baddest dudes around!'.

Well, that's how munchkins work.
Which is why they like OCCs like Atlanteans.

From what I've seen people's opinions of munchkins has it that they'd much prefer something a lot more powerful than 'human with a bit more', and an Atlantean doesn't come close to having it so over a human to give them any real power advantage. It's a lot more than munchkins who go around thinking 'my PC is bigger than your PC', there's also quite a bit of that from people who are insecure and feel like they need to keep everyone else down so they can feel important.

All that energy wasted insisting someone else's character has to be inferior to or no better than how you perceive your character to be as if everyone in the party is going to fight each other than band together against the threats the entire GM world will throw at them.

It's not about that.
It's about situations where one guy's character can do everything that another character can, PLUS has special abilities on top of it.
It's not that hard for a GM to balance out, but it does require balance.

No different than the AD&D game with the Human Fighter and the Elf Fighter and no one blinks an eye about it. It's also not very likely that you're going to have a human and an atlantean in a party and both having the same OCC, and it's almost impossible to have a Rifts game where people don't have overlap sometimes to a significant degree. Shouldn't even be a concern about 'oh I have to balance the Atlantean against the Human characters' because it's just not carrying anything about it that really makes it better.

[flatline]

I play a human in real life, why would I want to play a human in-game?

--flatline

Interesting statement.
Care to elaborate?

Humans are the norm in real life and in-game, so if I have an option to not be a human in-game, then I find that to be an appealing option. Unless directed by the GM to play a human, I'll only choose a human if the OCC I want requires it.

--flatline

[flatline]

Find a compelling reason to take a human character over a non-human character, one that has to do with gaming mechanics, not flavor.

On a scale of 1 to 5, humans are a 2. Most other races presented in the books are clearly superior to humans in some way or another. As a race, True Atlanteans are probably a 2.5 or 3 and so, while categorically superior to humans, are hardly the worst offenders in that regard.

--flatline

[Nightmask]

Find a compelling reason to take a human character over a non-human character, one that has to do with gaming mechanics, not flavor.

On a scale of 1 to 5, humans are a 2. Most other races presented in the books are clearly superior to humans in some way or another. As a race, True Atlanteans are probably a 2.5 or 3 and so, while categorically superior to humans, are hardly the worst offenders in that regard.

--flatline

Not like the average player picks with nothing but game mechanics in mind anyway, they're picking based on what they enjoy. I can't imagine picking based on just game mechanics or game benefits rather than enjoying what I want to play.

[Killer Cyborg]

Find a compelling reason to take a human character over a non-human character, one that has to do with gaming mechanics, not flavor.

On a scale of 1 to 5, humans are a 2. Most other races presented in the books are clearly superior to humans in some way or another. As a race, True Atlanteans are probably a 2.5 or 3 and so, while categorically superior to humans, are hardly the worst offenders in that regard.

--flatline

Not like the average player picks with nothing but game mechanics in mind anyway, they're picking based on what they enjoy. I can't imagine picking based on just game mechanics or game benefits rather than enjoying what I want to play.

1. Most other races that are more powerful than humans have the downside of an inhuman or monstrous appearance, something that will get them killed in human-dominated areas. Atleanteans don't have that issue- they're more powerful than humans, but they don't have the price.
2. Muchkins pick with game mechanics in mind. Which is the point.

[TechnoGothic]

I have always restrcted Race in most of my games to Humans...normal humans.

The Human can opt to upgrade themselves ... Cyborgs, Psionics, Magics, Juicers, Crazies, or another upgrade process if they wish. But the default Race is usually just Humans. I've made a few exceptions in the past, like out all True Atlantean game...or Dragon game.

I think RMB/RUE should have included basic Races to pick from. Human, Elf, Dwarf, Gnome, Orc, Wolven, etc...and OCCs just enhance the basic race with a Job/Career, or Augementation method.

[Nightmask]

Find a compelling reason to take a human character over a non-human character, one that has to do with gaming mechanics, not flavor.

On a scale of 1 to 5, humans are a 2. Most other races presented in the books are clearly superior to humans in some way or another. As a race, True Atlanteans are probably a 2.5 or 3 and so, while categorically superior to humans, are hardly the worst offenders in that regard.

--flatline

Not like the average player picks with nothing but game mechanics in mind anyway, they're picking based on what they enjoy. I can't imagine picking based on just game mechanics or game benefits rather than enjoying what I want to play.

1. Most other races that are more powerful than humans have the downside of an inhuman or monstrous appearance, something that will get them killed in human-dominated areas. Atleanteans don't have that issue- they're more powerful than humans, but they don't have the price.
2. Muchkins pick with game mechanics in mind. Which is the point.

And the question being how to combat that munchkin preconception, for some it's impossible because they consider everything that's not baseline human for the PC race as 'too powerful' or 'munchkin' or what other pejorative one cares to toss out. For those willing to actually think things over you then have to put it in perspective for how Atlanteans aren't in any meaningful way impressive and don't come with such massive benefits to put them into any kind of game-breaker situation.

[Giant2005]

Okay I'm reading Rifts Workd Book 2: Atlantis and I'm in love with True Alanteans and I want to play one as my next player character.

Problem is that they're staple as "free power" but I honestly just love their history, write u and mentality. So my question is...

How do I show that I am more interested in the Rping opertunitites and NOT the "human but wif cool POWAHHHHs!" preconception that I'm bound to run into due to the notoriety of this R.C.C among problematic munchkin players.

A good GM won't expect you to show anything.
A character is never munchkin, the player is munchkin.
A good GM will let you play with whatever you want and things will usually work out perfectly - a non-munchkin with a powerful character will play just as well as everyone else and it won't be an issue, a munchkin with a powerful character will have probably managed to get himself killed already so it isn't a big deal. Hell, in the game I have just started playing, the characters are still in the process of introducing each other and haven't begun their journey; Yet the team munchkin has already managed to get his first character killed and is halfway through killing his second.

[Killer Cyborg]

A character is never munchkin, the player is munchkin.

That's kind of like saying that there's no such thing as "American Cheese," only Americans who eat cheese.

If it comes from America, or is in the American style, it's American.
If it comes from Munchkinland, or is in the style of Munchkins, it's munchkin.

[Zer0 Kay]

Okay I'm reading Rifts Workd Book 2: Atlantis and I'm in love with True Alanteans and I want to play one as my next player character.

Problem is that they're staple as "free power" but I honestly just love their history, write u and mentality. So my question is...

How do I show that I am more interested in the Rping opertunitites and NOT the "human but wif cool POWAHHHHs!" preconception that I'm bound to run into due to the notoriety of this R.C.C among problematic munchkin players.

Ahhh, come on it isn't like your trying to sneak in a twinked Nightspawn... those are munchy.

[llywelyn]

I play a human in real life, why would I want to play a human in-game?

If you'd seen the stat yourself thread, it's obvious the average human is actually about a 3.5 to 4 on your scale.

[Balabanto]

I play a human in real life, why would I want to play a human in-game?

If you'd seen the stat yourself thread, it's obvious the average human is actually about a 3.5 to 4 on your scale.

Hahahahaa! That's awesome.

Actually, I play about 50 percent human or more when I play a character. Sometimes, it's story driven. Sometimes, I just think the character works better as a human.

[Athos]

I play a human in real life, why would I want to play a human in-game?

--flatline

Interesting statement.
Care to elaborate?

I can't speak for flatline, but I have similar feelings. Why would I want to play a character in a game that I can beat the hell out of in real life? Gaming is supposed to be "heroic" isn't it? If I am better at most things than my avatar, why do I want to play him? Where is the fun in that?

If I am going to escape into a game, I need something that intrigues me... which is probably why I play a lot of mages, I obviously can't do magic in RL. I want and need a challenge in the game, no, playing a wimp is not a challenge, it is just boring. I want to be something more than reality allows in this life, that is what makes me love gaming. I can escape into a world of heroes where there is a definite good and a definite evil, and take sides and actually influence events in that world.

[Colt47]

I've found it a safer course of action to write up the kind of character I want to play first before even looking at the OCCs available. Generally, it creates a more long lived being than something that exists merely for the spectacle.

The format I follow is:

1. Create a dimension of physical appearance. (What does this character look like? What does the character like to wear?)
2. Create a dimension of mental, emotional, social, and meta-physical states. (Gender, interests, likes and dislikes, religious disposition, etc)
3. Create a dimension of past, present, and potential future. (Character biography and future plans)

Afterwards I just flip through the books and figure out what OCC fits this particular character the best, followed by the skills, and so on and so forth. Also on a final note, soldiers and mercenaries can be very boring if not handled right.

[llywelyn]

Also on a final note, soldiers and mercenaries can be very boring if not handled right.

Hell, even when they are. :ka-bump-chh:

Or for the military brats:
Nope. Not handling mercs right is precisely when they get fiesty.

[taalismn]

Let's not forget that while humans are generally seen as the gerbils and field mice(with regards to the food chain) of the megaverse, Atlanteans got that extra bullseye on them for being SPECIAL.
Properly played/GM'ed, Atlanteans got celebrity status when they're identified, which is NOT always a good thing; people expect you to be noble and helpful and there to solve their problems(and they'll crucify you if you don't). Heavy hitters and ancient enemies like the Splugorth will single you out for 'special treatment' just because. Plus, there's always the chance that some Sunaj will be aiming to put a dagger between your shoulder blades.

[taalismn]

pfft. I got a Zentraedi Plant Shaman that makes The Lord of the Deep Look Stupid...

Oh...I GOTTA hear about that.
Full-sized?

[flatline]

I can see it now...

Player 1: I wanna play a glitterboy pilot!
GM: excellent choice!
Player 2: I wanna play a True Atlantean Vagabond!
GM: No way! If I let you be a True Atlantean Vagabond, then nobody would ever want to play a regular human vagabond.

--flatline

[Colt47]

Also on a final note, soldiers and mercenaries can be very boring if not handled right.

Hell, even when they are. :ka-bump-chh:

Or for the military brats:
Nope. Not handling mercs right is precisely when they get fiesty.

Heck, it doesn't help that most mercenary units are formed on the premise that we get to use cool stuff and then everyone forgets to detail what made them pick mercenary work in the first place!

Speaking of which, where is that sig I know and love about Shininess and being bad guys?

[Killer Cyborg]

I play a human in real life, why would I want to play a human in-game?

--flatline

Interesting statement.
Care to elaborate?

I can't speak for flatline, but I have similar feelings. Why would I want to play a character in a game that I can beat the hell out of in real life? Gaming is supposed to be "heroic" isn't it? If I am better at most things than my avatar, why do I want to play him? Where is the fun in that?

Hm.
This begs a number of further questions:
-Can you beat the hell out of every other human in real life?
-Are you better at most things than every human?

Also, your question about heroism is interesting.
I forget who originally said it, but one of the most common definitions of heroism is "an ordinary person in an extraordinary situation."
There's nothing really heroic about Superman thrashing a mugger.
He's not at risk.
There is no challenge.
It's an act that does not require any courage, skill, wisdom, nor any other trait out of those that are most strongly associated with heroism.
There IS something heroic about a normal human thrashing a mugger, as a general rule, as that requires some degree of courage and skill, if not wisdom.

Also, I'd wager that there are plenty of human characters in the game that you couldn't thrash if they were real, because they have powers and/or equipment far beyond your ability to deal with.

If I am going to escape into a game, I need something that intrigues me... which is probably why I play a lot of mages, I obviously can't do magic in RL. I want and need a challenge in the game, no, playing a wimp is not a challenge, it is just boring. I want to be something more than reality allows in this life, that is what makes me love gaming. I can escape into a world of heroes where there is a definite good and a definite evil, and take sides and actually influence events in that world.

Again, I think it's odd that you're equating "human" with "wimp."
But moving on, let's look at the bolded portion.

Okay, so you're not playing a human mage, you're playing a dragon instead.
What kind of encounter would make you feel challenged when you're a dragon?
What kind of encounter would make you feel bored?

I ask, because to me, a challenge typically involves something where there is significant risk of loss or defeat of some kind. Some kind of encounter where I have to exhibit and/or utilize courage, wisdom, and/or other positive traits, just in order to have a good chance of winning.
Which nets out a lot of the time as dealing with encounters where I'm playing the underdog.

[Akashic Soldier]

I ask, because to me, a challenge typically involves something where there is significant risk of loss or defeat of some kind. Some kind of encounter where I have to exhibit and/or utilize courage, wisdom, and/or other positive traits, just in order to have a good chance of winning.
Which nets out a lot of the time as dealing with encounters where I'm playing the underdog.

Come on man, don't use logic its not fair. j/k j/k

[Giant2005]

I try to avoid playing humans if possible.
Humans are too easy to roleplay - I have experienced humanity for the entirety of my life and even studied psychology. Humans are bland.
It is more fun taking an alien and inventing an alien persona for it that the average human would really have difficulty relating to.

I don't consider it roleplaying until you get out of your comfort zone.

[Akashic Soldier]

I try to avoid playing humans if possible.
Humans are too easy to roleplay - I have experienced humanity for the entirety of my life and even studied psychology. Humans are bland.
It is more fun taking an alien and inventing an alien persona for it that the average human would really have difficulty relating to.

I don't consider it roleplaying until you get out of your comfort zone.

This mentality is exactly why I always play a human.

Because no one ever wants to be human it means I get to be the human.

[Killer Cyborg]

I try to avoid playing humans if possible.
Humans are too easy to roleplay - I have experienced humanity for the entirety of my life and even studied psychology. Humans are bland.
It is more fun taking an alien and inventing an alien persona for it that the average human would really have difficulty relating to.

I don't consider it roleplaying until you get out of your comfort zone.

There are so many kinds of humans out there, and I'm only one, so I have plenty of room to enjoy roleplaying with human characters.
But I like your attitude, and I enjoy playing non-humans for much the same reason- to put myself in some pretty unusual shoes and try to walk a mile.

[Nightmask]

I can see it now...

Player 1: I wanna play a glitterboy pilot!
GM: excellent choice!
Player 2: I wanna play a True Atlantean Vagabond!
GM: No way! If I let you be a True Atlantean Vagabond, then nobody would ever want to play a regular human vagabond.

--flatline

Which quite encapsulates the silliness of the argument that 'if x then why would anyone y'. People play the human vagabond for the same reason they spend as much time playing human fighters instead of elven fighters in AD&D, because they aren't playing it for extra perks or game stats but because what a human brings that the elf doesn't. Last AD&D game I played we had two human fighters (I was one of them, dual classed as a mage second) and one elf fighter, and the guy playing the elf was clearly playing it not for any extras it had over humans but because he wanted to play the arrogant elf stereotype.

[Athos]

Hm.
This begs a number of further questions:
-Can you beat the hell out of every other human in real life?
-Are you better at most things than every human?

What does it matter who I can beat the hell out of? My character can't beat every other living creature up, so this is a silly thing to bring up. I understand you are just being argumentative, but come on, you can do better than this... As for me, I spent 8 years as a soldier in the US Army, 4 of those years as a sigint analyst for the NSA; another 15 years as a software engineer and I am now retraining to be a math teacher to give back to the society that I have gotten so much from... Yes, I am better at most things than most people, if my character is subpar, I just don't find it entertaining. YMMV...

Also, your question about heroism is interesting.
I forget who originally said it, but one of the most common definitions of heroism is "an ordinary person in an extraordinary situation."
There's nothing really heroic about Superman thrashing a mugger.
He's not at risk.
There is no challenge.
It's an act that does not require any courage, skill, wisdom, nor any other trait out of those that are most strongly associated with heroism.
There IS something heroic about a normal human thrashing a mugger, as a general rule, as that requires some degree of courage and skill, if not wisdom.

Also, I'd wager that there are plenty of human characters in the game that you couldn't thrash if they were real, because they have powers and/or equipment far beyond your ability to deal with.

Your quote is silly and has no bearing, and I think it was speilberg, who is selling movies that said it. Superman choosing to help ordinary people instead of becoming their overlord is very much a heroic choice. He could do anything, have anything, but instead he chooses to help common people. How do you not get this?

Superman is also an extreme. I don't play super heroes, they are a bit too powerful and one sided for my tastes. I prefer mages and psychics, cyberknights and juicers. I play human characters that are mages and juicers and cyberknights, so I don't know where you are coming from with your little thrash argument. The only human character I played that was utterly boring was a wilderness scout, he lasted 3 game sessions. He, I could thrash, since you have thrashing on the brain...

Again, I think it's odd that you're equating "human" with "wimp."
But moving on, let's look at the bolded portion.

Okay, so you're not playing a human mage, you're playing a dragon instead.
What kind of encounter would make you feel challenged when you're a dragon?
What kind of encounter would make you feel bored?

I ask, because to me, a challenge typically involves something where there is significant risk of loss or defeat of some kind. Some kind of encounter where I have to exhibit and/or utilize courage, wisdom, and/or other positive traits, just in order to have a good chance of winning.
Which nets out a lot of the time as dealing with encounters where I'm playing the underdog.

I have never played a GB or a dragon, they are bit too much in my opinion. I have played human heroes though, so I don't know where you are getting your misinformation from. I play human mages, cyberknights, and juicers, all of which I enjoy, all of which are not "normal" but are heroic in what they can do and achieve.

As for challenging the party, any GM worth his salt should be able to accomplish that as long as the party isn't full of dragons, GB's and superman types, none of which I play. Once again, you argument falls flat. I don't object to humans, I object to wimps and losers, you are the one that is equating all humanity with wimpiness. If that were the case, they would have died out during the time of the rifts.

[Misfit KotLD]

Convince your GM that the default race for the game should be Atlantean. It's working pretty well for my game.

I almost think someone did that for my game.

[Killer Cyborg]

Hm.
This begs a number of further questions:
-Can you beat the hell out of every other human in real life?
-Are you better at most things than every human?

What does it matter who I can beat the hell out of? My character can't beat every other living creature up, so this is a silly thing to bring up.

Flatline said that he doesn't play human characters, because he IS a human in real life.
I asked for elaboration.
You said, "I can't speak for flatline, but I have similar feelings. Why would I want to play a character in a game that I can beat the hell out of in real life? Gaming is supposed to be "heroic" isn't it? If I am better at most things than my avatar, why do I want to play him? Where is the fun in that?"

Perhaps you're unaware of it, but the implication of your response was that you do not play human characters because you do not want to play characters that you can beat the hell out of in real life.
Which only makes sense if you think that you can beat the hell out of any human being in real life.

Reading over the rest of your post, it now seems that your response was intended to convey something different than what was actually communicated.

I understand you are just being argumentative, but come on, you can do better than this...

How about this: you don't tell me what my motivations and thoughts are, and I won't tell you what yours are, and nobody gets warned or banned when the mods crack down?

Also, your question about heroism is interesting.
I forget who originally said it, but one of the most common definitions of heroism is "an ordinary person in an extraordinary situation."
There's nothing really heroic about Superman thrashing a mugger.
He's not at risk.
There is no challenge.
It's an act that does not require any courage, skill, wisdom, nor any other trait out of those that are most strongly associated with heroism.
There IS something heroic about a normal human thrashing a mugger, as a general rule, as that requires some degree of courage and skill, if not wisdom.

Also, I'd wager that there are plenty of human characters in the game that you couldn't thrash if they were real, because they have powers and/or equipment far beyond your ability to deal with.

Your quote is silly and has no bearing, and I think it was speilberg, who is selling movies that said it.

Lots of people have said it.
I doubt that Spielberg was the first person to do so.

The bearing is that you indicated that it was not possible to be heroic if you were physically weak or incapable in some way, and you are wrong.

Superman choosing to help ordinary people instead of becoming their overlord is very much a heroic choice. He could do anything, have anything, but instead he chooses to help common people. How do you not get this?

That is why Superman is a hero overall.
It has no bearing on the single hypothetical incident that I mentioned.
When I'm walking along a rainy sidewalk, and I pull an earthworm from a puddle and set it on dry ground so that it doesn't drown, am I being heroic?
No. I'm just showing some compassion, something which is generally necessary for heroism, but which is nowhere near the sole trait that is required.

I play human characters that are mages and juicers and cyberknights, so I don't know where you are coming from with your little thrash argument.

Explained above: you were stepping into a conversation about why somebody would choose not to play human characters, and offered up your motivations without explaining that you were also changing the subject to something else.

As for challenging the party, any GM worth his salt should be able to accomplish that as long as the party isn't full of dragons, GB's and superman types, none of which I play. Once again, you argument falls flat.

It wasn't an argument; it was a series of questions which you failed to answer.
But no worries- it was based on miscommunication.

[Killer Cyborg]

I can see it now...

Player 1: I wanna play a glitterboy pilot!
GM: excellent choice!
Player 2: I wanna play a True Atlantean Vagabond!
GM: No way! If I let you be a True Atlantean Vagabond, then nobody would ever want to play a regular human vagabond.

--flatline

Then you're seeing it wrong.

The time that there would be a potential issue is when you have a party with one human vagabond and one Atlantean vagabond.

[Killer Cyborg]

People play the human vagabond for the same reason they spend as much time playing human fighters instead of elven fighters in AD&D, because they aren't playing it for extra perks or game stats but because what a human brings that the elf doesn't. Last AD&D game I played we had two human fighters (I was one of them, dual classed as a mage second) and one elf fighter, and the guy playing the elf was clearly playing it not for any extras it had over humans but because he wanted to play the arrogant elf stereotype.

What the heck edition of AD&D are you playing...?

[Nightmask]

I can see it now...

Player 1: I wanna play a glitterboy pilot!
GM: excellent choice!
Player 2: I wanna play a True Atlantean Vagabond!
GM: No way! If I let you be a True Atlantean Vagabond, then nobody would ever want to play a regular human vagabond.

--flatline

Then you're seeing it wrong.

The time that there would be a potential issue is when you have a party with one human vagabond and one Atlantean vagabond.

You get more disparity with the guy in the SAMAS vs the Glitter Boy Pilot, the GB is way tougher and more powerful yet somehow they manage it just fine. It really shouldn't be an issue.