Does God and Jesus exist in rifts earth?

[Zer0 Kay]

Could be that it is because he is relating to creatures that are bound by time could it. If he didn't do that and just sat up there doing nothing because he knows what is going to happen or how someone feels then everyone would be claiming that he is a God that doesn't care. Like the land lord that doesn't go to the projects he owns to make his presence felt just because he knows that it is in a bad neighborhood and hears enough about it from the manager he placed over it. Your practicing eisegesis instead of exegesis. Read out into life not life into it.

Okay this is getting more into what I was hoping for in terms of this conversation (I'm not quoting your entire post because it's super long, but I'm responding to the whole thing). A couple of clarifications though. Again am not trying to debate modern christian beliefs or trying to read into the bible things that aren't there. Maybe the bible is written in such a way because it's an attempt to relate to creatures that are bound by time and therefore the language as written aren't accurate representations of the infinite God, that's fine, but that's not what is written. Clearly, as written he didn't know that Abraham was going to kill his son and therefore feared god up until the moment he stayed his hand, so trying to interpret more into that just doesn't further the discussion. Most of the passages you quoted are either people attributing things to Yahweh, or he himself simply stating that he is X (omnipotent, infinite etc). What I really want to see is passages that demonstrate this. If in fact the character Yahweh is somehow greater than Brahma, just as an example, who also states he is omnipotent, all knowing, the creater of the heavens and earth, the creator of good and evil etc but who has finite stats in rifts, it needs to be deomonstrated that Yahweh is somehow greater, in the text mind you. Getting into what people believe, or what current religions espouse is getting us no where and unfortunately people's feelings seem to be getting hurt, so I'm avoiding that now.

Psalm 33:13
The Lord looketh from heaven; he beholdeth all the sons of men.

I'm repeating this passage that you pointed out because it is the best one you have and it's really starting to get into the meat and potatos of what I'm looking for to take Yahweh off the list of dieties in pantheons. It demonstrates something that falls into the powers he is described. It's not quite enough so far, especially since it doesn't really seperate him out from the other gods in Pantheons, Brahma for example (I know I keep using the Hindu pantheon, but that's just becuase that one is freshest in my memory, but I doubt it's exclusive to him) is often discribed as all seeing, it's why he's depicted/described as having 4 faces, in fact there is a story where shiva cut off his fifth head just so Brahma's daughter could escape him (he wanted to have sex with her).

Okay give me what you want to see and I'll try to find them and you want them as examples but those are all going to be either someone saying that of Him or Him saying that of Himself. So are you trying to say you want statement like "God does X" instead of "God CAN do X" or "I SHALL do X?"

As for all seeing and infinite. You do realize the difference between prophetic and apocolyptic writting? Prophetic is speaking for God, it is usually instruction or a message to deal with the present while apocolyptic writing is foretelling the future a message or lesson for the future. Okay, the prophets speak for God delivering His words to man. Occasionally, less frequently than they deliver prophetic messages, a prophet will have an apocolyptic message. So Daniel and Ezekiel had so many prophesies that were very specific that came true during the 400 year gap between the canon of the OT and Jesus' birth. There you have that God is AT LEAST the God that is and will be.

Some time after Christs' return the world will be consumed (timing and such varries depending on mellinial, post-mellinial and other doctrines for when Christs' return happens, when the rapture happens and when the judgement happens) and all of creation will be made anew... yadda, yadda. Essentially God will combine Heaven and Earth and his original plan prior to the fall will come to fruition. So there you have destruction of the world, creation, resurrection of all believers, as well as peace and immortality given to ALL things. We will all be given new bodies like Christ... which may include his ability to travel as described after his resurrection. You think it and there you are. I think I'll miss meat though

God of life, death, creation, uncreation, recreation

Here are a couple lists:
Christ's Miracles
SOME OT Prophesies fullfilled by Christ

[Zer0 Kay]

a few members were making purile posts in the biblical manner. Now as for what's going on now, it's ok it's becoming a philosophical debate (that i've seen too many times) ... ultimately it's up to the poster to decide which Viewpoint he will use.


As for the knot hexes... that was a practice of the Babylonian religion and required hair.

Purel posts?? Aren't those like alcohol based, used for cleansing?

Philosophical or Theological? Philosophical can be backed up with logic at the very least. Theological has more to do with faith... though there is a lot of historicity that may support it.

[llywelyn]

a few members were making purile posts in the biblical manner.

Purel posts?? ... alcohol based, used for cleansing?

Pretty sure he meant "puerile".

A couple of clarifications though. Again am not trying to debate modern christian beliefs or trying to read into the bible things that aren't there.

But you're freely ignoring things that are there, as provided by Zer0. Their similarity to some Hindu hymns doesn't make them identical, since the fact they're taken at face-value makes them distinct.

@Clearly, as written he didn't know that Abraham was going to kill his son
As centuries upon centuries of exegesis - particularly rabbinic exegesis - have shown, your personal interpretation is not at all clear. You'd get farther arguing that Abraham himself doesn't seem to appear in the other books unambiguously until the Babylonian exile. Then again, easy enough for a believer to explain it was part of the oral tradition and there was no reason to bring it up in books about Samson or David.

@What I really want to see is passages that demonstrate this.
See (inter alia) Genesis 1.

@Brahma, just as an example, who also states he is omnipotent, all knowing, the creater of the heavens and earth, the creator of good and evil
[ citation needed ]

Not of some random hymns' mention of that, mind you, but of an actual Hindu proclaiming that it is the One Truth and that the similar claims of other bhaktis and faiths are so much balderdash.

Not to say your point is totally invalid, but you see how cherry-picked this game is, right?

As Job very firmly established, the Jews considered it beneath their G-d to have to resort to any of the "ZOMG!! HOW DID YOU KNOW THAT WAS MY CARD?!!?" chickanery/proof you claim to be looking for. It's not there - with arguable exceptions in Revelations & the Quran - by design: openly mystical works like the Book of Enoch were considered inappropriate for inclusion into canon precisely in light of G-d's ineffible majesty.

The (frankly unique) firmness and absoluteness of Judaism - established by at least the end of the prophets - is precisely the distinction to be made between their Monotheos and the pantheons if you're going to go that route. Your Baal clone is, of course, perfectly valid on some readings of some texts - and some ignoring of some others. It's just not more right than Zer0's take, let alone the only right possible interpretation.

@unfortunately people's feelings seem to be getting hurt
Couldn't let this use of the passive voice pass by unnoted, though.

Being insulting ("grossly ignorant") is distinct from arguing, and it's not my "feeling's" fault or issue that you're still mastering that distinction. My feelings weren't hurt and your apology was noted; just kindly stop sabotaging it already and let's just debate the merits (or limits) of one another's points.

Or better still, take the argument about the Ultimate Truth to some OT forum and simply give us some stats and adventure ideas about your iron-chariot-fearing Lord of Hosts. The Christian players won't use him, but it'd be interesting and maybe we could even get some fan art mocked up.

[llywelyn]

...because I have the growing urge to start knot hexes...

Umm I am not sure what religion you are that you are threatening to start knot hexes to stop certain posts from being read, but from what I know of most religions that use things like that, that is a gross misrepresentation of that religion. I don't know many pagan faiths that condone hexing people, especially trying to bend someone else's will so that they will not do something that you find inappropriate.

It's cute that in this thread you think knot hexes are the morally objectionable bit.

Any religion will have some practitioners who use it to bend people to their will; all the same, none except Crowleyism or Thick Black Theory would ever advocate doing so openly in their publically available lore. That's what the esoteric traditions are for.

Speaking of druids and power tripping, though: what was up with giving super-shapeshifting dragons not only tattoo magic but also that elixir of power and deceit? Is there some lore about Chiang-ku dragons outside of the England book that justified all that?

Or better still, take the argument about the Ultimate Truth to some OT forum and simply give us some stats and adventure ideas about your iron-chariot-fearing Lord of Hosts. The Christian players won't use him, but it'd be interesting and maybe we could even get some fan art mocked up.

Hey, AK!

You're still using your alien intelligence and can't post his stats, but "Neo-Jesus" is dead in your campaign.*

What did his stats look like?




*See the problem with statting these people? Damned Rifts players...

[Akashic Soldier]

...because I have the growing urge to start knot hexes...

Umm I am not sure what religion you are that you are threatening to start knot hexes to stop certain posts from being read, but from what I know of most religions that use things like that, that is a gross misrepresentation of that religion. I don't know many pagan faiths that condone hexing people, especially trying to bend someone else's will so that they will not do something that you find inappropriate.

It's cute that in this thread you think knot hexes are the morally objectionable bit.

Any religion will have some practitioners who use it to bend people to their will; all the same, none except Crowleyism or Thick Black Theory would ever advocate doing so openly in their publically available lore. That's what the esoteric traditions are for.

Speaking of druids and power tripping, though: what was up with giving super-shapeshifting dragons not only tattoo magic but also that elixir of power and deceit? Is there some lore about Chiang-ku dragons outside of the England book that justified all that?

Or better still, take the argument about the Ultimate Truth to some OT forum and simply give us some stats and adventure ideas about your iron-chariot-fearing Lord of Hosts. The Christian players won't use him, but it'd be interesting and maybe we could even get some fan art mocked up.

Hey, AK!

You're still using your alien intelligence and can't post his stats, but "Neo-Jesus" is dead in your campaign.*

What did his stats look like?




*See the problem with statting these people? Damned Rifts players...

He was an ordinary SDC human shifter (level 11) with a principaled alignment and a bunch of spells from BoM. I'm on my iPhone do typing it up would be a pain in the butt. As he made no effort to defend himself and the players had managed to convince him to trust them if they wanted him to trust them he was away from his body guards.

He was killed instantly by the heavy weapon made to look like a severed head that Kali-7 carries around. He made no effort to resist. Instead trusting in their inner moral compasses to do the right thing.

[llywelyn]

He was killed instantly by the heavy weapon made to look like a severed head that Kali-7 carries around. He made no effort to resist. Instead trusting in their inner moral compasses to do the right thing.

I'm sure the problem with that logic is much more obvious to outside observers.

[Zer0 Kay]

a few members were making purile posts in the biblical manner.

Purel posts?? ... alcohol based, used for cleansing?

Pretty sure he meant "puerile".

A couple of clarifications though. Again am not trying to debate modern christian beliefs or trying to read into the bible things that aren't there.

But you're freely ignoring things that are there, as provided by Zer0. Their similarity to some Hindu hymns doesn't make them identical, since the fact they're taken at face-value makes them distinct.

@Clearly, as written he didn't know that Abraham was going to kill his son
As centuries upon centuries of exegesis - particularly rabbinic exegesis - have shown, your personal interpretation is not at all clear. You'd get farther arguing that Abraham himself doesn't seem to appear in the other books unambiguously until the Babylonian exile. Then again, easy enough for a believer to explain it was part of the oral tradition and there was no reason to bring it up in books about Samson or David.

@What I really want to see is passages that demonstrate this.
See (inter alia) Genesis 1.

@Brahma, just as an example, who also states he is omnipotent, all knowing, the creater of the heavens and earth, the creator of good and evil
[ citation needed ]

Not of some random hymns' mention of that, mind you, but of an actual Hindu proclaiming that it is the One Truth and that the similar claims of other bhaktis and faiths are so much balderdash.

Not to say your point is totally invalid, but you see how cherry-picked this game is, right?

As Job very firmly established, the Jews considered it beneath their G-d to have to resort to any of the "ZOMG!! HOW DID YOU KNOW THAT WAS MY CARD?!!?" chickanery/proof you claim to be looking for. It's not there - with arguable exceptions in Revelations & the Quran - by design: openly mystical works like the Book of Enoch were considered inappropriate for inclusion into canon precisely in light of G-d's ineffible majesty.

The (frankly unique) firmness and absoluteness of Judaism - established by at least the end of the prophets - is precisely the distinction to be made between their Monotheos and the pantheons if you're going to go that route. Your Baal clone is, of course, perfectly valid on some readings of some texts - and some ignoring of some others. It's just not more right than Zer0's take, let alone the only right possible interpretation.

@unfortunately people's feelings seem to be getting hurt
Couldn't let this use of the passive voice pass by unnoted, though.

Being insulting ("grossly ignorant") is distinct from arguing, and it's not my "feeling's" fault or issue that you're still mastering that distinction. My feelings weren't hurt and your apology was noted; just kindly stop sabotaging it already and let's just debate the merits (or limits) of one another's points.

Or better still, take the argument about the Ultimate Truth to some OT forum and simply give us some stats and adventure ideas about your iron-chariot-fearing Lord of Hosts. The Christian players won't use him, but it'd be interesting and maybe we could even get some fan art mocked up.

Are you a teacher or editor? Just wondering
Oh, I know what he meant I was just past that sleepy phase where you get really silly.

[Zer0 Kay]

this thread should be locked soon because I have the growing urge to start knot hexes to stop certain posts from being read!.


and again, Everything in the "OT/NT" is parasited off previous cultural contacts, And thus, Not the final truth or what have you.

Umm I am not sure what religion you are that you are threatening to start knot hexes to stop certain posts from being read, but from what I know of most religions that use things like that, that is a gross misrepresentation of that religion. I don't know many pagan faiths that condone hexing people, especially trying to bend someone else's will so that they will not do something that you find inappropriate.

Never mind that most of those that do use spells usually have a five fold return especially for malific spells. I'd consider stopping another's non-violent actions based solely on ones dislike of it to be malific.

Three fold, it's the rule of three

Is it? Dang it... messed up AGAIN. Oh well I'll mess up some more tomorrow and then get reminded/corrected of things I already knew but have forgotten or simply been messed up by too many numbers floating around in my disorganized head... 5 instead of 3... I just had a Monty Python moment

[Rockwolf66]

How did you set up the vampiric cure? Just a spell or a ritual involving particular ingredients the players needed to assemble.

As someone who was playing in that game the ritual to turn a vampire into a Wampyre involved alot of plot railroading and agregious use of his wife's GMPC. Somehow that NPC had a spellbook with the spell in it and even though it costed Well over 1,000 PPE his wifes character had most of that PPE as her personal PPE pool. Unfortunatly I can't post the game details about what the ritual consisted of because at that time several of the long term players were in open revolt against Misfit's Horrible Game mastering style

As far as "El" goes Misfit sort of thrus that being on us in the middle of a campain. Honestly it would have gone over with most of us players if he had stuck with having Christianity being a normal religion where you find folks who are basically good people rather than a very dark interpritation of a Caanite religion that is out to take over everything where men dominate and women are little better than slaves. Even though the game is set over 200 years past the apocolypse I really can't see the religion changeing that much. Even though I am NOT christian. that was really hard to take. Honestly it failed at common sense and the introduction of the "Church of El" as an apparently major power in North America was really at odds with established Rifts cannon.

PS: Yeah I know I'm ranting about something that is only partially on topic But I do have a point to make. One of the reasons that I would not want to see Jesus or the Christian g-d in rifts is that they are too easy for a bad GM with an agenda to miss use. Now outside of his game mastering abilities Misfit is really knowledgeable about religion and he has some great ideas. The thing about Rifts is that you already have the modern interpritation of God at the table with the GM. Allseeing, All knowing and they are the ones who can make the players lives easy or make the players lives miserable to the extreme. You don't need stats for a G-d as portrayed in the bible as such a deity isn't ment to directly interact with mortals. You can know that they esist and feel their presence but such an entity is so far beyond the understanding of mortals that humans really cannot relate to such a being directly.

[Akashic Soldier]

He was killed instantly by the heavy weapon made to look like a severed head that Kali-7 carries around. He made no effort to resist. Instead trusting in their inner moral compasses to do the right thing.

I'm sure the problem with that logic is much more obvious to outside observers.

Yeah. The situation was a little more complex. But at its core I decided that if they could justify murdering an innocent man in cold blood to prevent the possible coming of an Alien Intelligence I would let them. It was interesting that they did not even try coming up with an alternative (which was unlike them). It was either Kill Jesus before they complete the Great Work or Leave and go on their way allowing him to release an Alien Intelligence on the Earth.

After about 20-45 minutes of back and forth they justified murdering him in cold blood.



And if this was some sort of Cosmic Test of Ethics... well...

[llywelyn]

PS: Yeah I know I'm ranting about something that is only partially on topic

Nah, I think feedback from these sort of campaigns is precisely on-topic.

I'd be curious to hear back from AK's players, too, if they're not too GM-fearing.

After about 20-45 minutes of back and forth they justified murdering him in cold blood.

Not that someone tricked out like CyberKali would mind, but if there were any cyberknights that let her do it, their fallen aberrant alignment would've been a cute side effect.

In their defense, he was a shifter and those guys are always Bad News.

[Akashic Soldier]

In their defense, he was a shifter and those guys are always Bad News.

They didn't know that. All they saw him do was use high level magic to heal the sick and kill sea life so that fish were washed up to feed the hungry. Oh and preach love and togetherness.

Also the Kali-7 character is one of the more virtuous characters of the team. Her appearance is a product of a sacrifice she made to protect her country and people and not because she wanted to look like a nightmarish demon slaying monstrosity. Just so ya know.

And yes, no Cyber Knights to make fall but my players are aware that I've been keeping note of their good and bad actions since day one. I'm waiting until not a single PC has a number of good actions outweighing their evil. That is when the real fun begins.

[llywelyn]

I'm waiting until not a single PC has a number of good actions outweighing their evil. That is when the real fun begins.

The more interesting side quests in New Reno open up and they can make money in porn and as hired guns?

[Rockwolf66]

PS: Yeah I know I'm ranting about something that is only partially on topic

Nah, I think feedback from these sort of campaigns is precisely on-topic.

I'd be curious to hear back from AK's players, too, if they're not too GM-fearing.

Ok then.

Really When I do run a Rifts game I try to think of how a Monotheistic religion like Christianity would change in a world like Rifts earth where the supernatural and the divine running around everywhere. Basically one would have to admit that there is much more than one god running around among other things. It's not something that I have heard explored much.

Among my characters some of them are religious and others are not

Among my religious characters Heather Maude practices a religion that is a mix of Christian sects, Wicca and native american religious belifes.

Silvianna Thrasher is a Demigoddess who's Father is Gwyn Ap Nudd in both the guise of an otherworldly godking and the leader of the wildhunt. In my portraial of the Wildhunt it is called from the otherworld to hunt down a great evil threateneing the land. Since it is headed by a god the object of the hunt is usually a demon loard or an alien intelligence. Sometimes bistandards do get drawn into the hunt.

[flatline]

Speaking of druids and power tripping, though: what was up with giving super-shapeshifting dragons not only tattoo magic but also that elixir of power and deceit? Is there some lore about Chiang-ku dragons outside of the England book that justified all that?

Chaing Ku are not Super shape changers, the only difference between their shape changing and any other dragon is that a Chaing Ku can hold their form indefinitely. As for having the ability to make the elixir and having tattoo magic, the majority of Chaing Ku wouldn't use the elixir. Chaing Ku are also one of the weakest of all the dragons, have no breath weapons, and can't fly.

You forgot their biggest weakness: they can't teleport!

Chaing Ku are clearly the weakest of the dragons from a physical and combat perspective. The ability to give tattoos to their allies is nice, but hard for a PC to really benefit from. They are the only race that can still be a spell caster after receiving more than 6 tattoos (handy, but only really comes into play once you reach level 10). The elixir is great for an NPC, but I've found that it's not worth the effort as a PC to use except to make a small number of trustworthy servants. Making an army is really, really tedious (and it's so easy for the GM to destroy the results of your hard work).

They're great for magic OCCs in a medium or high level campaign if you can get over the very limited skill selection. Definitely on my list of races worth playing.

Oh, they can't fly in their natural form, but I would rule that they can fly if they shape shift into a form with suitable wings (large bird or bat, for example).

--flatline

[DhAkael]

not relevent...moving on.

[Misfit KotLD]

For those of you who insist on the Christian God, I posit this, which does comply (more or less) with Christian theology. So the coming of the rifts was the final judgment. God took his followers and went to wherever He and his chosen go. Hell is the absence of God (in some views) and what's more hellish than heathen gods running amok and they're the good guys, with mass murdering human supremacists in power in North America and demons (and worse) ruling elsewhere.

*Edit* I have also addressed the huge disparity between the Cult of El's rather rigid, militaristic bent and the teachings of Christ. El's last son, Yeshua, was gotten upon a mortal to nudge his people into replacing the Romans as the dominant power. Yeshua, however, was diametrically opposed to El and had enough power to teach his own way, for which he was sacrificed and El's thought gradually pushed back into his religion. El, of course, hedged his bets by taking a couple monotheistic faiths in the hopes of a larger empire. It did not go as planned as the two faiths disagreed, sometimes violently, and all manner of crazy sectarian movements began. Thus the Crusades and Papal inquisitions and pushes against heresies. That was when El got fed up with his followers and took a nap from which he is only recently awakening, hence a small, active cult. Yeshua will not be coming back, but his teaching that the Kingdom of God is here and to love one's neighbors as one loves God lives in a few saintly and charitable individuals.

Also, in my game, direct action by the gods is forbidden, though some still have their hands in mortal affairs (and Zeus always must have affairs with mortals). I did not intend for my campaign to have such a Greek outlook, but we have a daughter of Zeus, a half-Atlantean, and an Altantean all as PCs. some of the Atlantean plotlines are from previous incarnations of the present game, though I've had to add a lot for the half-Atlantean. But now we're getting a bit afield of the original question.

[Nightmask]

For those of you who insist on the Christian God, I posit this, which does comply (more or less) with Christian theology. So the coming of the rifts was the final judgment. God took his followers and went to wherever He and his chosen go. Hell is the absence of God (in some views) and what's more hellish than heathen gods running amok and they're the good guys, with mass murdering human supremacists in power in North America and demons (and worse) ruling elsewhere.

*Edit* I have also addressed the huge disparity between the Cult of El's rather rigid, militaristic bent and the teachings of Christ. El's last son, Yeshua, was gotten upon a mortal to nudge his people into replacing the Romans as the dominant power. Yeshua, however, was diametrically opposed to El and had enough power to teach his own way, for which he was sacrificed and El's thought gradually pushed back into his religion. El, of course, hedged his bets by taking a couple monotheistic faiths in the hopes of a larger empire. It did not go as planned as the two faiths disagreed, sometimes violently, and all manner of crazy sectarian movements began. Thus the Crusades and Papal inquisitions and pushes against heresies. That was when El got fed up with his followers and took a nap from which he is only recently awakening, hence a small, active cult. Yeshua will not be coming back, but his teaching that the Kingdom of God is here and to love one's neighbors as one loves God lives in a few saintly and charitable individuals.

Also, in my game, direct action by the gods is forbidden, though some still have their hands in mortal affairs (and Zeus always must have affairs with mortals). I did not intend for my campaign to have such a Greek outlook, but we have a daughter of Zeus, a half-Atlantean, and an Altantean all as PCs. some of the Atlantean plotlines are from previous incarnations of the present game, though I've had to add a lot for the half-Atlantean. But now we're getting a bit afield of the original question.

An interesting position, although doesn't the final judgment also result in Earth being remade into a paradise rather than Satan's new domain?

[Rockwolf66]

For those of you who insist on the Christian God, I posit this, which does comply (more or less) with Christian theology. So the coming of the rifts was the final judgment. God took his followers and went to wherever He and his chosen go. Hell is the absence of God (in some views) and what's more hellish than heathen gods running amok and they're the good guys, with mass murdering human supremacists in power in North America and demons (and worse) ruling elsewhere.

*Edit* I have also addressed the huge disparity between the Cult of El's rather rigid, militaristic bent and the teachings of Christ. El's last son, Yeshua, was gotten upon a mortal to nudge his people into replacing the Romans as the dominant power. Yeshua, however, was diametrically opposed to El and had enough power to teach his own way, for which he was sacrificed and El's thought gradually pushed back into his religion. El, of course, hedged his bets by taking a couple monotheistic faiths in the hopes of a larger empire. It did not go as planned as the two faiths disagreed, sometimes violently, and all manner of crazy sectarian movements began. Thus the Crusades and Papal inquisitions and pushes against heresies. That was when El got fed up with his followers and took a nap from which he is only recently awakening, hence a small, active cult. Yeshua will not be coming back, but his teaching that the Kingdom of God is here and to love one's neighbors as one loves God lives in a few saintly and charitable individuals.

Also, in my game, direct action by the gods is forbidden, though some still have their hands in mortal affairs (and Zeus always must have affairs with mortals). I did not intend for my campaign to have such a Greek outlook, but we have a daughter of Zeus, a half-Atlantean, and an Altantean all as PCs. some of the Atlantean plotlines are from previous incarnations of the present game, though I've had to add a lot for the half-Atlantean. But now we're getting a bit afield of the original question.

An interesting position, although doesn't the final judgment also result in Earth being remade into a paradise rather than Satan's new domain?

Bingo, the end result of the final judgement is that earth once again becomes a garden of eden. Whyle yes you do get the Beast, Leviathan and the Roc. You also have those same being defeated and those who are truely noble inheriting an earth that has been clensed of evil, pain and suffering.

Really What happened to Rifts earth is unlike anything ever profisived in the bible. It's going to change things but judgeing by most of the christians I know it's not going to turn their religion to the worst.

[llywelyn]

Chaing Ku are not Super shape changers, the only difference between their shape changing and any other dragon is that a Chaing Ku can hold their form indefinitely.

And your definition of super shape changing would be what? Down the genetic level, like the Auto-G?

Holding form indefinitely is a huge advantage over only managing a few hours. IIRC, no other dragon can last a full two days before 13th or 14th level.

@the majority of Chaing Ku wouldn't use the elixir.
I know the fluff said that, but it was patent nonsense. Good-aligned chiang ku would hand out the elixir like an open bar, and just sip some afterwards or whatever the gimme was and absolve themselves from controlling the beneficiaries.

@Chaing Ku are also one of the weakest of all the dragons, have no breath weapons, and can't fly.
See also: tattoo magic.

@You forgot their biggest weakness: they can't teleport!
Ok. There's a fair point. [ thumbs through to see if there's a teleport tat & it's PPE cost... ]

For those of you who insist on the Christian God, I posit this, which does comply (more or less) with Christian theology. So the coming of the rifts was the final judgment. God took his followers and went to wherever He and his chosen go. Hell is the absence of God (in some views) and what's more hellish than heathen gods running amok and they're the good guys, with mass murdering human supremacists in power in North America and demons (and worse) ruling elsewhere.

That is indeed a pretty compelling backstory, although afaik it's contradicted by the Chaos Earth in canon.

@El's last son, Yeshua, was gotten upon a mortal to nudge his people into replacing the Romans as the dominant power. Yeshua, however, was diametrically opposed to El and had enough power to teach his own way
This, I love.

He truly was the Jewish Messiach, but opted out either from benevolence and wisdom or adolescent acting out against parental expectations. There is a small fortune to be made turning this plotline into a string of YA books.

@Thus the Crusades and Papal inquisitions and pushes against heresies.
Eh, personally, would fault you stylistic points on focusing on Xianity's missteps and omitting the whole jihad, Mad Caliph, conversion by force, &c., on the Islamic side. But yeah, all over there were misdeeds you could either blame on the human actors or a Vengeful G-d. Personally, on your read, I'd rather read Islam as the True faith of El and the Xians simply getting turned off of Josh's path by (a) preference not to be martyred and (b) the influences of the Germanic faiths being converted. One of the truly cool books of world religion is the Heliand, the version of the Gospel rewritten to convert the Saxons: Jesus is a warrior-chief from Hill-Fort Jerusalem, surrounded by his trusty 12 retainers.

@I did not intend for my campaign to have such a Greek outlook, but we have a daughter of Zeus, a half-Atlantean, and an Altantean all as PCs.
Hell, at this point, I'd start having dad drop hints How Proud He Would Be if someone could somehow get a little sacrificial cow action going on. When no one bites, they start noticing some suspiciously close lightning strikes...

[llywelyn]

doesn't the final judgment also result in Earth being remade into a paradise rather than Satan's new domain?

Yes and no.

What he was talking about was the Rapture, which supposedly (via mixing verses) precedes a lot of the 'fun' part of the Revelation. There's the four horsemen, a dragon, a beast from the sea, and a beast of the earth (more?) who all play around and 'rule' the world or parts of the world before the Fourth Act. Iirc, it's not really clear how long it takes before Jesus shows up in Jerusalem with the cavalry.

@Really What happened to Rifts earth is unlike anything ever profisived in the bible.
Well, you do have Rifts: Africa, but of course there are many gamers who prefer to forget it.

I'm sure you could piece together a make-shift version of the Revelation. Four Horsemen? Check. Wormwood? In spades. A dragon? Too many to count. The beast of the sea? We've got at least three: the Lord of the Deep or a restored USA following the New Navy's return or that Black Ship guy. The beast of the earth could be anyone, but obv. we'd all lean towards the CS or Mexico.

[Misfit KotLD]

So, with some creative interpretation, one can make the Bible suit one's needs (which is a common theological activity. Hell, Palladium does it all the time with its versions of the various mythological figures. Kali is a destroyer of evil and wife of Siva (though her berserker rages are worthy of Wolverine).

And as the original post implied, Palladium's lack of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic theology is almost absent the Rifts setting, which is remarkable given how widespread those faiths are. Only Hinduism is close and it's far behind Christianity and Islam by population figures.

[Akashic Soldier]

doesn't the final judgment also result in Earth being remade into a paradise rather than Satan's new domain?

Yes and no.

Mostly No.

Earth is left behind along with Satan and the faithful ascended into the First Heaven.

Check out Revelations if you ever get the time.

[Zer0 Kay]

For those of you who insist on the Christian God, I posit this, which does comply (more or less) with Christian theology. So the coming of the rifts was the final judgment. God took his followers and went to wherever He and his chosen go. Hell is the absence of God (in some views) and what's more hellish than heathen gods running amok and they're the good guys, with mass murdering human supremacists in power in North America and demons (and worse) ruling elsewhere.

*Edit* I have also addressed the huge disparity between the Cult of El's rather rigid, militaristic bent and the teachings of Christ. El's last son, Yeshua, was gotten upon a mortal to nudge his people into replacing the Romans as the dominant power. Yeshua, however, was diametrically opposed to El and had enough power to teach his own way, for which he was sacrificed and El's thought gradually pushed back into his religion. El, of course, hedged his bets by taking a couple monotheistic faiths in the hopes of a larger empire. It did not go as planned as the two faiths disagreed, sometimes violently, and all manner of crazy sectarian movements began. Thus the Crusades and Papal inquisitions and pushes against heresies. That was when El got fed up with his followers and took a nap from which he is only recently awakening, hence a small, active cult. Yeshua will not be coming back, but his teaching that the Kingdom of God is here and to love one's neighbors as one loves God lives in a few saintly and charitable individuals.

Also, in my game, direct action by the gods is forbidden, though some still have their hands in mortal affairs (and Zeus always must have affairs with mortals). I did not intend for my campaign to have such a Greek outlook, but we have a daughter of Zeus, a half-Atlantean, and an Altantean all as PCs. some of the Atlantean plotlines are from previous incarnations of the present game, though I've had to add a lot for the half-Atlantean. But now we're getting a bit afield of the original question.

An interesting position, although doesn't the final judgment also result in Earth being remade into a paradise rather than Satan's new domain?

Bingo, the end result of the final judgement is that earth once again becomes a garden of eden. Whyle yes you do get the Beast, Leviathan and the Roc. You also have those same being defeated and those who are truely noble inheriting an earth that has been clensed of evil, pain and suffering.

Really What happened to Rifts earth is unlike anything ever profisived in the bible. It's going to change things but judgeing by most of the christians I know it's not going to turn their religion to the worst.

The Christians that remain would think that they weren't faithful enough and that Rift's Earth is the Tribulations. Since it has lasted over 7 years they'd start guessing that the 7 years are like some believe the 7 days of creations are 1000 years each and then since it is 7 years it is 364.2425 (solar year/gregorian) x 7 x 1000!!!
edit: Oops I forgot it may be prophetic year 360 or Lunar(Hebrew) callendar years which is 354.37 days

[Zer0 Kay]

doesn't the final judgment also result in Earth being remade into a paradise rather than Satan's new domain?

Yes and no.

What he was talking about was the Rapture, which supposedly (via mixing verses) precedes a lot of the 'fun' part of the Revelation. There's the four horsemen, a dragon, a beast from the sea, and a beast of the earth (more?) who all play around and 'rule' the world or parts of the world before the Fourth Act. Iirc, it's not really clear how long it takes before Jesus shows up in Jerusalem with the cavalry.

@Really What happened to Rifts earth is unlike anything ever profisived in the bible.
Well, you do have Rifts: Africa, but of course there are many gamers who prefer to forget it.

I'm sure you could piece together a make-shift version of the Revelation. Four Horsemen? Check. Wormwood? In spades. A dragon? Too many to count. The beast of the sea? We've got at least three: the Lord of the Deep or a restored USA following the New Navy's return or that Black Ship guy. The beast of the earth could be anyone, but obv. we'd all lean towards the CS or Mexico.

So what your saying is Kevin is secretly doing the God thing without out saying it and all the while claiming to avoid it?

BTW the Rapture is the "shall be caught up" part in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. The time of troubles is the Tribulation mentioned a lot in Revelations.

As far as the Earth being hell... Satan/Lucifer and the anti-Christ are cast alive into the lake of fire it does not claim that that is on or in the Earth.

The new Earth is Heaven and Earth merged together so that God may walk among us. It is the return to his original plan that we (humanity) messed up.

[Akashic Soldier]

The new Earth is Heaven and Earth merged together so that God may walk among us. It is the return to his original plan that we (humanity) messed up.

I hate doing this, but no.

It is a higher plane of existence where our souls are taken after this world is cast into the fire.

But lets not argue religion and just take it as it happens, its semantics after all.

[Zer0 Kay]

The new Earth is Heaven and Earth merged together so that God may walk among us. It is the return to his original plan that we (humanity) messed up.

I hate doing this, but no.

It is a higher plane of existence where our souls are taken after this world is cast into the fire.

But lets not argue religion and just take it as it happens, its semantics after all.

So... where is your source?

Do you have a Bachelors in Ministry Leadership and a Masters in Theology and Culture?

Revelations 21:1-4

1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’[b] or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

Heaven and Earth and all of creation are made new and heaven and Earth are made one and God lives upon the new Earth and walks among us.

It is a higher plane of existence where our souls are taken after this world is cast into the fire.

This world is never cast into the fire. It is cleansed by fire and made new, not a whole new Earth and all creation is made immortal. Suns don't die, black holes and black dwarfs are never "born".

Prior to that Heaven (the only one of the three referred to in the Bible that is a spiritual realm, the other two is the sky and the ether or space) is indeed a plane of existence where our souls go when we die and while there it is as if we are asleep. It is the realm of God and we are not woken until the time of judgement when all of us our resurrected for judgement.

It isn't symantics. There is no other way to translate the Greek only the way of misinterpreting the English... that is why one should always study the original text, otherwise you may miss some nuances that are lost in translation.

here is an interesting one dealing with a "character" of the Bible. The reason that many consider Mary CALLED Magdalene a prostitute is because a Pope once gave teachings that claimed that the woman of ill repute in the chapter in Luke before Mary Magdalene is introduced is said to be a sinful woman. That woman anoints Jesus' feet with perfume. The next chapter Mary is introduced as one of the women that follow Jesus and she does because he cast seven demons out of her. The Pope claimed those were the seven sins so she must be the prostitute mentioned in the previous chapter. That Pope goes on to claim that not only is the woman of ill repute and Mary Magdalene but Mary "of Bethesda" as in the sister of Martha and Lazerous is the same Mary. Later the Catholic church "rectified" this and seperated the three. However modern Christianity for whatever reason continues to claim that Mary was a prostitute but if asked will say that Mary Magdalene and Mary of Bethesda are two different people. So here is my point if one claims that Mary is a prostitute then one should also believe that she is Lazerous' and Martha's sister... which would explain why she is one of the most beloved of Christ as Lazerous' was a good friend of Jesus, likely knowing him before he started teaching. If one doesn't belive that Mary Magdalene and Mary of Bethesda are the same then that person shouldn't believe that Mary is a Prostitute, especially since almost every chapter of Luke in that section deals with a seperate event. Something else that makes Mary Bethesda possible as Mary Magdalene (I made it all caps earlier) she is occasionally referred to as Mary CALLED Magdalene just like Simon is Simon CALLED Peter. Simon is Jesus' STONE which he will build the church on. The referrence to Mary could be Christ calling her His TOWER. BTW a magdala means elegant, great or tower so I guess they could just be saying she is elegant or great neither are words one would normally use to describe a prostitue. I imagine it is tower though as she and her family are always there for Jesus to come back to and she is always awaiting him strong and true. Reguardless of her occupation she would be there for him.

[Akashic Soldier]

Do you have a Bachelors in Ministry Leadership

No.

Masters in Theology and Culture?

Revelations 21:1-4

1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

New Heaven, New Earth.
First Heaven and Earth Passed Away. (Gone)

here is an interesting one dealing with a "character" of the Bible. The reason that many consider Mary CALLED Magdalene a prostitute is because a Pope once gave teachings that claimed that the woman of ill repute in the chapter in Luke before Mary Magdalene is introduced is said to be a sinful woman. That woman anoints Jesus' feet with perfume. The next chapter Mary is introduced as one of the women that follow Jesus and she does because he cast seven demons out of her. The Pope claimed those were the seven sins so she must be the prostitute mentioned in the previous chapter. That Pope goes on to claim that not only is the woman of ill repute and Mary Magdalene but Mary "of Bethesda" as in the sister of Martha and Lazerous is the same Mary. Later the Catholic church "rectified" this and seperated the three. However modern Christianity for whatever reason continues to claim that Mary was a prostitute but if asked will say that Mary Magdalene and Mary of Bethesda are two different people. So here is my point if one claims that Mary is a prostitute then one should also believe that she is Lazerous' and Martha's sister... which would explain why she is one of the most beloved of Christ as Lazerous' was a good friend of Jesus, likely knowing him before he started teaching. If one doesn't belive that Mary Magdalene and Mary of Bethesda are the same then that person shouldn't believe that Mary is a Prostitute, especially since almost every chapter of Luke in that section deals with a seperate event. Something else that makes Mary Bethesda possible as Mary Magdalene (I made it all caps earlier) she is occasionally referred to as Mary CALLED Magdalene just like Simon is Simon CALLED Peter. Simon is Jesus' STONE which he will build the church on. The referrence to Mary could be Christ calling her His TOWER. BTW a magdala means elegant, great or tower so I guess they could just be saying she is elegant or great neither are words one would normally use to describe a prostitue. I imagine it is tower though as she and her family are always there for Jesus to come back to and she is always awaiting him strong and true. Reguardless of her occupation she would be there for him.

I know all about this and Lilith being cut from the bible in the 14th century because she was becoming a figure used to exemplify feminine defiance. I know this will sound arrogant but I don't mean it to be but I don't think you realize who you are talking to Zero. I dont say that to mean "YOU DON'T KNOW WHO YOU ARE TALKING TO!!" I mean it to say that you do not know the life I have lead, what I do know, how I know it or just how much I have studied this.

To help clarify this, between the ages of 17 to 23 I did nothing but travel the world seeking spiritual truth and understanding. By that I don't mean that I went to Jerusalem and did a tour with my local church or went to church every Sunday. I mean I did nothing else. I am minority obsessive. Its not unhealthy I just can't control my thoughts or stop. Ever. I can't sit still and be quiet or NOT do something. I have to constantly make bad half-witted jokes or absorb new information and go to extreme lengths to focus my thoughts or they go completely wild. I literally spent every day (I had no real friends, just spiritual teacher after spiritual teacher) as I bounced around the globe. Every day. Nearly every waking hour. That is who and what I am. It might not be the prettiest portrayal of my personality... but its me unfortunately. So nothing you have said is here is new to me.

I know it from from the book of Judas to all the original errors in the translation (like the Serpent in the Garden was really a Dragon in the Garden because it was the other name for Lucifer the Morning Star). I know it all. I've heard it before. Again, not that you don't make good points... just realize that all I have logged countless hours on this and the torah and MANY other middle eastern (and even cultish and whacky) faiths.

That was all I did and when I had nothing left to learn I moved on to the next one.

I've trained under (and am friends with) some of the. Nah now its just becoming a dick swinging thing and that wasn't my intention so I'll stop there.

My point is that I am very confident in my understanding of the faith, I have a strong relationship with the Lord (though I wish my relationship with Jesus was better) and I know the material. I have nothing to prove and if more people read things without the bias of tradition or to turn it into towards personal gain the world would be a better place. Though the same is true of science. I've also had my head so far up science's ass that... ah you get the idea.

If I am not mentally occupied I get depressed and I am scared of getting depressed. That is why I love Role Playing Games now. Now instead of having to constantly learn new things I can just occupy my mind with creating fictional scenarios and running probabilities and balancing t---

I'm rambling again arent I?

Okay, end post.

[Zer0 Kay]

Do you have a Bachelors in Ministry Leadership

No.

Masters in Theology and Culture?

Revelations 21:1-4

1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

New Heaven, New Earth.
First Heaven and Earth Passed Away. (Gone)

here is an interesting one dealing with a "character" of the Bible. The reason that many consider Mary CALLED Magdalene a prostitute is because a Pope once gave teachings that claimed that the woman of ill repute in the chapter in Luke before Mary Magdalene is introduced is said to be a sinful woman. That woman anoints Jesus' feet with perfume. The next chapter Mary is introduced as one of the women that follow Jesus and she does because he cast seven demons out of her. The Pope claimed those were the seven sins so she must be the prostitute mentioned in the previous chapter. That Pope goes on to claim that not only is the woman of ill repute and Mary Magdalene but Mary "of Bethesda" as in the sister of Martha and Lazerous is the same Mary. Later the Catholic church "rectified" this and seperated the three. However modern Christianity for whatever reason continues to claim that Mary was a prostitute but if asked will say that Mary Magdalene and Mary of Bethesda are two different people. So here is my point if one claims that Mary is a prostitute then one should also believe that she is Lazerous' and Martha's sister... which would explain why she is one of the most beloved of Christ as Lazerous' was a good friend of Jesus, likely knowing him before he started teaching. If one doesn't belive that Mary Magdalene and Mary of Bethesda are the same then that person shouldn't believe that Mary is a Prostitute, especially since almost every chapter of Luke in that section deals with a seperate event. Something else that makes Mary Bethesda possible as Mary Magdalene (I made it all caps earlier) she is occasionally referred to as Mary CALLED Magdalene just like Simon is Simon CALLED Peter. Simon is Jesus' STONE which he will build the church on. The referrence to Mary could be Christ calling her His TOWER. BTW a magdala means elegant, great or tower so I guess they could just be saying she is elegant or great neither are words one would normally use to describe a prostitue. I imagine it is tower though as she and her family are always there for Jesus to come back to and she is always awaiting him strong and true. Reguardless of her occupation she would be there for him.

I know all about this and Lilith being cut from the bible in the 14th century because she was becoming a figure used to exemplify feminine defiance. I know this will sound arrogant but I don't mean it to be but I don't think you realize who you are talking to Zero. I dont say that to mean "YOU DON'T KNOW WHO YOU ARE TALKING TO!!" I mean it to say that you do not know the life I have lead, what I do know, how I know it or just how much I have studied this.

To help clarify this, between the ages of 17 to 23 I did nothing but travel the world seeking spiritual truth and understanding. By that I don't mean that I went to Jerusalem and did a tour with my local church or went to church every Sunday. I mean I did nothing else. I am minority obsessive. Its not unhealthy I just can't control my thoughts or stop. Ever. I can't sit still and be quiet or NOT do something. I have to constantly make bad half-witted jokes or absorb new information and go to extreme lengths to focus my thoughts or they go completely wild. I literally spent every day (I had no real friends, just spiritual teacher after spiritual teacher) as I bounced around the globe. Every day. Nearly every waking hour. That is who and what I am. It might not be the prettiest portrayal of my personality... but its me unfortunately. So nothing you have said is here is new to me.

I know it from from the book of Judas to all the original errors in the translation (like the Serpent in the Garden was really a Dragon in the Garden because it was the other name for Lucifer the Morning Star). I know it all. I've heard it before. Again, not that you don't make good points... just realize that all I have logged countless hours on this and the torah and MANY other middle eastern (and even cultish and whacky) faiths.

That was all I did and when I had nothing left to learn I moved on to the next one.

I've trained under (and am friends with) some of the. Nah now its just becoming a dick swinging thing and that wasn't my intention so I'll stop there.

My point is that I am very confident in my understanding of the faith, I have a strong relationship with the Lord (though I wish my relationship with Jesus was better) and I know the material. I have nothing to prove and if more people read things without the bias of tradition or to turn it into towards personal gain the world would be a better place. Though the same is true of science. I've also had my head so far up science's ass that... ah you get the idea.

If I am not mentally occupied I get depressed and I am scared of getting depressed. That is why I love Role Playing Games now. Now instead of having to constantly learn new things I can just occupy my mind with creating fictional scenarios and running probabilities and balancing t---

I'm rambling again arent I?

Okay, end post.

Lillith was never in the Bible nor was she in the Torah she was implemented after the turn of the century when Kabalah was introduced. The screach owl that it refers to in the OT isn't Lillith, it is simply the author of the Kabalist literature implementing a (IIRC) Syrian demon into its religion and trying to use vague referrences in the OT that can't be proven or disproven to support it. They could have easily said that the beast mentioned with the screach owl was her instead of the owl.

So then from what book does the legend that Mary Magdalene, Martha Bethesda and Lazerous Jerusalem being nobles come from?

So then by your logic our new bodies will be absolutely nothing like the old because we receive new bodies like all of creation including the Earth? So then how is it that everyone we know will recognize us? Our new bodies will be akin to Christs as his was the firstfruit our will be of the harvest. As the Word that created all of creation is the firstfruit of creation so creation will be the harvest. Christ's new body wasn't "new" as in the old one is gone as the new looks as the old was and is the old but does not suffer from...

Danger of all that spiritual learning is that things bleed through. like accepting the gospel of Judas as canon when it was written by Gnostic heretics more than 130 years after the Synoptic Gospels were written. That is more than long enough for oral tradition to produce legend making it at best a good work of fiction at worst an effective tool for heresy.

I was Bahai, then Atheist, then Deist, then Agnostic, and now I'm saved.

Original hebrew also doesn't say dragon, but serpent could be used that way.

I think we should stop this line of conversation though as to keep from getting this topic locked. Please PM me with any additional conversation on these points. Thanks

[llywelyn]

@Nuh-uh. - Zer0
You're not wrong exactly, but you're certainly picking at nits. You're right that the earth isn't tossed into The Fire (all caps) of The Abyss (all caps) of Hell (not that that even makes sense, since Hades was concerned the underworld and they really didn't have a concept of implosion.) Mostly right that the Bible talks about the New Earth as a physical location, although so perfect it's six of one, half-dozen of the other. You're being a little silly claiming that means missing Ak's real point about the fires thrown about everywhere in The Revelation and that the earth will be a new and pure place.

In game terms, both of them mean that the world still stands to be completely remade or utterly destroyed and replaced with some rifted dimension.

Similarly, Lilith wasn't expunged, but she hardly doesn't appear - even in canon. It's just an issue about whether you should translate passages as Lilith or "Screech Owl" and how much you want to ignore that there are really two creations of man in Genesis. So, no need to bust out the credentials (your story's cool; so's Ak's), but do remember to tie it back to the game. Surely, it'd be fun to have the Mother of All Demons and Feminist Theory rather than just ignore her.

[Zer0 Kay]

@Nuh-uh. - Zer0
You're not wrong exactly, but you're certainly picking at nits. You're right that the earth isn't tossed into The Fire (all caps) of The Abyss (all caps) of Hell (not that that even makes sense, since Hades was concerned the underworld and they really didn't have a concept of implosion.) Mostly right that the Bible talks about the New Earth as a physical location, although so perfect it's six of one, half-dozen of the other. You're being a little silly claiming that means missing Ak's real point about the fires thrown about everywhere in The Revelation and that the earth will be a new and pure place.

In game terms, both of them mean that the world still stands to be completely remade or utterly destroyed and replaced with some rifted dimension.

Similarly, Lilith wasn't expunged, but she hardly doesn't appear - even in canon. It's just an issue about whether you should translate passages as Lilith or "Screech Owl" and how much you want to ignore that there are really two creations of man in Genesis. So, no need to bust out the credentials (your story's cool; so's Ak's), but do remember to tie it back to the game. Surely, it'd be fun to have the Mother of All Demons and Feminist Theory rather than just ignore her.

Shouldn't that be @ Zer0... Nuh-uh

it isn't nit picking. The world isn't destroyed it is made new. That which is, is cleansed and made anew. His plan was to implement it on Earth and there it shall be made. An Earth made new not a newly made Earth.

The two accounts of creation... one wouldn't be, by any chance, to show the order of creation culminating in the creation of man while the other is to show man's job. When we were told to rule over all the word doesn't mean as tyrants but as managers or caretakers with God's authority.

Now in game terms it would be interesting if Rifts Earth is the torched, discarded Earth that was Rifted away and there is a Perfect Earth in it's (Rifts Earth's) original dimension. Part of the reason for the noticable Leylines (even though other dimensions and planets with less Leyline activity don't have noticable Leylines) is because Rifts Earth is, impossibly, sharing space with the Earth that was originally in this (the dimension that Rifts Earth is currently occupying) dimension, or maybe multiple Earths were Rifted there and that is really what made RIFTS Earth and the leylines are so bright because you've got multiple lines overlapping.

[The Baron of chaos]

I avoided replying so far, as this thread had become less and less interesting unless you've undergo a deep spiritual search and read lot of theologica and religious texts.
In a word a massive size contest for who has the deepest theological knowledge(at least this look like on surface...).
And sincerely i don't know if i have enough to reply to this thread in any way...this is why any reply i did i deleted shortly afterward because sounded pointless and nagging.
But right now i feel i've to say something.
Guys...
chill down..
REALLY. More sane people gone nuts and overall unpleasant. and all three of you look like won't stop till you've "sold" your idea of how the Creator is.
Considering that everyone has their own personal declination of it, and 99,99% of humankind is probably wrong about it and there is nothing wrong as a flower by any other name remain objectually what it is. So the divine regardless how we see or name or perceive or DECIDE to perceive, remain what it is. I mean i don't really see much of the point of this thread, since the easiest route is go for the Demiurge theory(and all the various greater AI were various Demiurges that got..carried away...) why the Creator felts to create them? Same reasons he created much everything else. Why he do nothing about them? Because he had to follow his own rules. God play by rules, his own, but never cheat.
So exactly why you're talking about?? Because i'm really puzzled about why this thread is not yet dead.

[llywelyn]

But right now i feel i've to say something.
[Pointless nagging]

Nah, think you had it right the first time.

We're just talking and at least by my count the militant atheists have been the only bores trying to push their one agenda. Ak & Zer0 above are jst discussing textual interpretation.

Minor point we shd bring it back to the game world & campaigns, but just telling ppl to simmer down & hesh up isn't constructive either, esp. when Zer0 was offering pretty interesting ways of setting up the entire planet.

You've made up yr mind for how you see this. Peachy.

As you mentioned, others are going tdisagree with your view, have their own, and want to talk about it. Given that right now something close to a majority of the human race believes in the Abrahamic G-d, it's a huge, gaping hole in the current gaming world - even if you obv. consider them to be the 99% who got it wrong, at least some would still feel that way after the Rifts.

And the problem is Mr. Siembieda's current vision isn't neutral - it's both implausible, self-inconsistent, & (by nerfing Xianity to a minor personality quirk while Isis roams New York, careless mangling Orthodox & Catholic traditions, & - afaik - completely ignoring Islam & Judaism) occasionally openly insulting.

& yet on the other hand, you've got the very real potential for abuse & No Fun At All involved if the GM handles it badly (as posters brought out above). Hence, the tjread.

[llywelyn]

...thread.

This typo was sent by my yiPhone. =p

[llywelyn]

Can you point me to the militant atheists posts that are trying to ram their agenda down peoples throats. I've read through this entire thread and have yet to see that.

I don't know either why you'd want or need it, but if this was a serious request for some reason, sure. Pm me & I'll send it back later when my computer's out of the shop & I don't need to use a touchscreen to type.

but people will throw a fit if Jesus and God are not handled properly. They don't want to touch christianity and the like because they don't want a huge outcry from people that don't like how they did it.

That might fly except they have no choice - & in fact they already have dealt with it in Pantheons in a fine way. The problem was when they got to New West & Russia and decided to stat priests as essentially sanctimonious vagabonds. That fits Breaux's views just fine, but it's lousy game mechanics, esp. given all the allusion to a Deistic G-d.

[Misfit KotLD]

Can you point me to the militant atheists posts that are trying to ram their agenda down peoples throats. I've read through this entire thread and have yet to see that.

I don't know either why you'd want or need it, but if this was a serious request for some reason, sure. Pm me & I'll send it back later when my computer's out of the shop & I don't need to use a touchscreen to type.

but people will throw a fit if Jesus and God are not handled properly. They don't want to touch christianity and the like because they don't want a huge outcry from people that don't like how they did it.

That might fly except they have no choice - & in fact they already have dealt with it in Pantheons in a fine way. The problem was when they got to New West & Russia and decided to stat priests as essentially sanctimonious vagabonds. That fits Breaux's views just fine, but it's lousy game mechanics, esp. given all the allusion to a Deistic G-d.

What do you mean they have already dealt with it in Pantheons in a fine way?

I think he means they covered their eyes and ears then went, "La la la, can't hear you."

[llywelyn]

but people will throw a fit if Jesus and God are not handled properly. They don't want to touch christianity and the like because they don't want a huge outcry from people that don't like how they did it.

That might fly except they have no choice - & in fact they already have dealt with it in Pantheons in a fine way. The problem was when they got to New West & Russia and decided to stat priests as essentially sanctimonious vagabonds. That fits Breaux's views just fine, but it's lousy game mechanics, esp. given all the allusion to a Deistic G-d.

What do you mean they have already dealt with it in Pantheons in a fine way?

I think he means they covered their eyes and ears then went, "La la la, can't hear you."

I think he means they addressed that an omnipotent, omniscient G-d can be boring from a storytelling angle unless He's played as very far above the fray; but nonetheless statted out a Priest of Light with actual powers who would be applicable to Jewish rabbis, Christian priests and ministers, and Muslim imams. Which is pretty much the exact right way to do things, but which they walked back from in favor of making the priests look unpowered and delusional in Breaux's book and Russia.

[Colt47]

This took a bit of thinking on my part as it's kind of an interesting question. Generally speaking, the terms Jesus and God are most certainly going to still exist on Rifts Earth, but the exact religions of Christianity and Catholicism probably wouldn't be the same as what we see today. In fact, I'm pretty sure that without literacy, most religious traditions would have to be passed down orally, which means there's going to be some serious telephone game like results happening as time progresses. I'd imagine that there would be a lot of derivative cults based upon Christianity, Mormonism, Islam, Catholicism, and other major religions all over the place. Heck, there are probably some Hindu and Buddhist sects running around somewhere out there in North America.

Then, you also have to add in alien influences that might break or shape certain aspects of the belief system. Think about it: what if an alien, but angelic looking D-bee were rifted in, end up doing one quick fly over, and then pass through another Rift without landing? I'm certain some hard core religious folks might think they are angels or a sign from God, and now they have new murals with what they think angels look like. Also, lets not forget all the nightmare fuel Chaos Demons probably added to the mix. I'm certain someone out there has a depiction of the devil looking like a Lovecraftian jellyfish horror with some poor guy being waved around like a babies rattle.

[Colt47]

Every time I read this thread.... Oh and stare down the business end of a Boom Gun!

Eh, I'm not surprised you feel that way. Probably because it is treating Christianity and Catholicism as a fictional creation.

[Misfit KotLD]

Every time I read this thread.... Oh and stare down the business end of a Boom Gun!

Eh, I'm not surprised you feel that way. Probably because it is treating Christianity and Catholicism as a fictional creation.

You mean Rifts is real? Or Buddhism, Hinduism, or the other religions Palladium has done interesting things to?

[Nightmask]

Every time I read this thread.... Oh and stare down the business end of a Boom Gun!

Eh, I'm not surprised you feel that way. Probably because it is treating Christianity and Catholicism as a fictional creation.

Not from what I've seen, it just asks the reasonable question as to what kind of impact something like the Rifts Earth cataclysm would have on a world basically like ours with regards to belief in Christianity and other major religions that Palladium has avoided to levels beyond general rational need due to extreme paranoia about the more militant sorts frivolously suing the company over it. Given these faiths have survived for centuries or millenia it breaks suspension of disbelief that they'd cease to exist or to have an impact on a world like Rifts Earth, whether or not you allowed for actual angels and such from God to appear. Given strong belief can generate magical power in settings like Rifts even if God didn't exist belief would be enough to grant magical powers to the most faithful and driven, if He were accepted as existing then one can imagine He would certainly have empowered agents like we see in other media.

[Colt47]

Every time I read this thread.... Oh and stare down the business end of a Boom Gun!

Eh, I'm not surprised you feel that way. Probably because it is treating Christianity and Catholicism as a fictional creation.

You mean Rifts is real? Or Buddhism, Hinduism, or the other religions Palladium has done interesting things to?

more likely myself wording something poorly. But more of the latter.

[Zer0 Kay]

But right now i feel i've to say something.
[Pointless nagging]

Nah, think you had it right the first time.

We're just talking and at least by my count the militant atheists have been the only bores trying to push their one agenda. Ak & Zer0 above are jst discussing textual interpretation.

Minor point we shd bring it back to the game world & campaigns, but just telling ppl to simmer down & hesh up isn't constructive either, esp. when Zer0 was offering pretty interesting ways of setting up the entire planet.

You've made up yr mind for how you see this. Peachy.

As you mentioned, others are going tdisagree with your view, have their own, and want to talk about it. Given that right now something close to a majority of the human race believes in the Abrahamic G-d, it's a huge, gaping hole in the current gaming world - even if you obv. consider them to be the 99% who got it wrong, at least some would still feel that way after the Rifts.

And the problem is Mr. Siembieda's current vision isn't neutral - it's both implausible, self-inconsistent, & (by nerfing Xianity to a minor personality quirk while Isis roams New York, careless mangling Orthodox & Catholic traditions, & - afaik - completely ignoring Islam & Judaism) occasionally openly insulting.

& yet on the other hand, you've got the very real potential for abuse & No Fun At All involved if the GM handles it badly (as posters brought out above). Hence, the tjread.

Can you point me to the militant atheists posts that are trying to ram their agenda down peoples throats. I've read through this entire thread and have yet to see that.

My biggest thing about putting Jesus and God in Rifts is how many people will throw a fit if they are not like they want them. It's alright to **** with religions that have a significantly smaller amount of followers and we are supposed to just grin and bear it but people will throw a fit if Jesus and God are not handled properly. They don't want to touch christianity and the like because they don't want a huge outcry from people that don't like how they did it.

Yeah I guess the sound of the squeaky wheel that some Jews/Christians/Muslims would make over it would be louder than that made by unhappy Theist of smaller religions, but they've (PB) have still taken shots at some fairly large religions as well.

[Zer0 Kay]

Can you point me to the militant atheists posts that are trying to ram their agenda down peoples throats. I've read through this entire thread and have yet to see that.

I don't know either why you'd want or need it, but if this was a serious request for some reason, sure. Pm me & I'll send it back later when my computer's out of the shop & I don't need to use a touchscreen to type.

but people will throw a fit if Jesus and God are not handled properly. They don't want to touch christianity and the like because they don't want a huge outcry from people that don't like how they did it.

That might fly except they have no choice - & in fact they already have dealt with it in Pantheons in a fine way. The problem was when they got to New West & Russia and decided to stat priests as essentially sanctimonious vagabonds. That fits Breaux's views just fine, but it's lousy game mechanics, esp. given all the allusion to a Deistic G-d.

What do you mean they have already dealt with it in Pantheons in a fine way?

I think he means they covered their eyes and ears then went, "La la la, can't hear you."

Great now I've got a mental movie of KS doing that.

[Zer0 Kay]

but people will throw a fit if Jesus and God are not handled properly. They don't want to touch christianity and the like because they don't want a huge outcry from people that don't like how they did it.

That might fly except they have no choice - & in fact they already have dealt with it in Pantheons in a fine way. The problem was when they got to New West & Russia and decided to stat priests as essentially sanctimonious vagabonds. That fits Breaux's views just fine, but it's lousy game mechanics, esp. given all the allusion to a Deistic G-d.

What do you mean they have already dealt with it in Pantheons in a fine way?

I think he means they covered their eyes and ears then went, "La la la, can't hear you."

I think he means they addressed that an omnipotent, omniscient G-d can be boring from a storytelling angle unless He's played as very far above the fray; but nonetheless statted out a Priest of Light with actual powers who would be applicable to Jewish rabbis, Christian priests and ministers, and Muslim imams. Which is pretty much the exact right way to do things, but which they walked back from in favor of making the priests look unpowered and delusional in Breaux's book and Russia.

I don't think Rabbi's have ever claimed to be empowered to do God's miracles just by their possition. IIRC any Jew can perform miracles but it is only as the spirit of God is upon them and according to scripture that isn't a permanent indwelling. All Christians on the other hand are supposed to be indwelled by the Holy Spirit making them capable of moving mountains... with faith. I'm not familiar enough with the Islamic religions to claim anything except they trace their liniage back through Abraham through Noah and Adam to the same God.

[Zer0 Kay]

Every time I read this thread.... Oh and stare down the business end of a Boom Gun!

Eh, I'm not surprised you feel that way. Probably because it is treating Christianity and Catholicism as a fictional creation.

Not from what I've seen, it just asks the reasonable question as to what kind of impact something like the Rifts Earth cataclysm would have on a world basically like ours with regards to belief in Christianity and other major religions that Palladium has avoided to levels beyond general rational need due to extreme paranoia about the more militant sorts frivolously suing the company over it. Given these faiths have survived for centuries or millenia it breaks suspension of disbelief that they'd cease to exist or to have an impact on a world like Rifts Earth, whether or not you allowed for actual angels and such from God to appear. Given strong belief can generate magical power in settings like Rifts even if God didn't exist belief would be enough to grant magical powers to the most faithful and driven, if He were accepted as existing then one can imagine He would certainly have empowered agents like we see in other media.

You know I don't know if that law suit would even hold, but if any of them knew PB they'd probably try it still because they know PB would drop it in order to avoid the lawsuit... heck suprised an insulted rich, devout Hindu hasn't tried it yet. Not saying that Hindu's are litigious... hmm then again they may just be satisfied that PB would get bad Karma.

[flatline]

Every time I read this thread.... Oh and stare down the business end of a Boom Gun!

Eh, I'm not surprised you feel that way. Probably because it is treating Christianity and Catholicism as a fictional creation.

Even if you think that God and Jesus exist in the real world, any treatment of them in a fictional setting will, by definition, be fictional. If you think that adding God and Jesus to the Rifts setting makes it a better setting for you and your players, do it, but don't be offended by how someone else treats them.

--flatline

[Neo]

I just run it as if Yahweh is another Alien intelligence and Jesus is a fragment of his essence.

[Killer Cyborg]

Every time I read this thread.... Oh and stare down the business end of a Boom Gun!

Eh, I'm not surprised you feel that way. Probably because it is treating Christianity and Catholicism as a fictional creation.

Even if you think that God and Jesus exist in the real world, any treatment of them in a fictional setting will, by definition, be fictional. If you think that adding God and Jesus to the Rifts setting makes it a better setting for you and your players, do it, but don't be offended by how someone else treats them.

--flatline

Agreed.
I believe in God.
I don't believe in the version of God that was portrayed in the comic book series Preacher.
However, I did find that version to be quite entertaining as a fictional alternative.

[Mack]

We've covered all the relevant Rifts info.

Topic Locked.