Triax 2 success or failure?

[keir451]

Just wanted to put my 2 cents in and clear a matter up. In Underseas, the New Navy is govern by Fleet Command (p. 96) and Captain Nemo is the leader of it (p. 107). There is not a President of the New Navy so if Captain Nemo wanted to make a treaty with the NGR, unofficial or official, he would have the authority to. Also on page 109 under Foreign Relations (Triax and the NGR), it gives a hint about a possible future alliance between the two.

Technically correct but also incorrect; The New Navy follows and believes in the standards and values of the US Navy and America in general (from whom they originate). This includes the rank and command structure. Which means the President of Refuge City is actually President of the USA in absentia. Which also means HE is Commander in Chief of the New Navy. So Fleet Command, as well as Nemo-2, report to him, not the other way around.

[AdmTolval]

To each their own opinion. But the books make no mention of a President for the New Navy. I can see why one can read it that way with "the society and culture based on the Democratic Republic of the old American Empire" (p. 108) I would disagree as everyone in the New Navy, "military and civilian, are under martial law and criminals are tried and punished by naval courts." (p. 108). The line about society and culture is focused on "freedom of speech and expression, and civil liberties" (p. 108-109), not in government.

I would like to say that I'm glad I've returned to the boards. I've been overloading on school ever since I returned to college but finally going to graduate in a couple of weeks. I look forward in getting into these discussions once again. This one has been one of the most entertaining I've read so far.

[Braden Campbell]

I also, generally, respect Braden Campbell. Yet again I disagree with his work because he's using essentially "fake tech" and following his own comment of being "a lazy GM".

Heh. I should probably quantify that statement - I am lazy only in that, when I design stuff for use in my games, I am not one to get heavily into numbers or exacting formulae. If I need a new starship for the bad guys of the week, I do exactly what they did on Star Trek: I kitbash.

"Oh, the alien ship? Uh... well, it's shaped a lot like an upside-down Scimitar, only it has four more guns, and a bigger looking engine on the back."

BAM! Instant new space vessel, and it took me all of a minute to jot down. Now, I can get back to gaming.

Please don't think that I'm one to shortcut background or characters or concepts... I'm just not a numbers guy, as evidenced by my acting and literature background.

[keir451]

To each their own opinion. But the books make no mention of a President for the New Navy. I can see why one can read it that way with "the society and culture based on the Democratic Republic of the old American Empire" (p. 108) I would disagree as everyone in the New Navy, "military and civilian, are under martial law and criminals are tried and punished by naval courts." (p. 108). The line about society and culture is focused on "freedom of speech and expression, and civil liberties" (p. 108-109), not in government.

I would like to say that I'm glad I've returned to the boards. I've been overloading on school ever since I returned to college but finally going to graduate in a couple of weeks. I look forward in getting into these discussions once again. This one has been one of the most entertaining I've read so far.

Glad I could be of service sir. I, too am in college, and loaded w/course so I know whereof you speak. The way the US gov't & the military operate is, in case of death of the President the VP takes over, during gov't sessions one person is kept out just in case the entire Congress (the Senate and the House of Representatives) are wiped out. If this fails the responsability falls to the most senior ranking US Army Ofiicer. Now During the Apocalypse ALL the levels of Fed Gov. were wiped out along w/the Joint Chiefs of Staff (this was stated in Chaos Earth), so the chain of command would fall to the next highest ranking US military officer, which might technically be Carl Dobson. His responsibility, as passed down from his father, would be (as best as possible under the circumstances) literally, "To protect and defend the Constitution of the United States from all enemies foriegn and domestic.", this also means that at some point in time they would have to end the status of Martial Law and hold legitimate elections for US gov't positions including a new POTUS, who would be the new Commander in Chief as well, which sets the New Navy (as the only military arm of the US in absentia) under his command.

[keir451]

I also, generally, respect Braden Campbell. Yet again I disagree with his work because he's using essentially "fake tech" and following his own comment of being "a lazy GM".

Heh. I should probably quantify that statement - I am lazy only in that, when I design stuff for use in my games, I am not one to get heavily into numbers or exacting formulae. If I need a new starship for the bad guys of the week, I do exactly what they did on Star Trek: I kitbash.

"Oh, the alien ship? Uh... well, it's shaped a lot like an upside-down Scimitar, only it has four more guns, and a bigger looking engine on the back."

BAM! Instant new space vessel, and it took me all of a minute to jot down. Now, I can get back to gaming.

Please don't think that I'm one to shortcut background or characters or concepts... I'm just not a numbers guy, as evidenced by my acting and literature background.

Yah, that's where you & I differ, I prefer the gritty technical details because all the people I've gamed w/and GM'd for over the years have demanded that from me. So unfortunately I cannot back down from that stance and I have come to expect that from Palldium as well because Palldium is actually capable of that if they bothered to try.

[AdmTolval]

I just finished my student teaching (World History and Civics & Economics) so I understand where you are coming from. My little pet peeve about Underseas is that Karl should have been an Admiral, not a Captain. Huge ship with that large number of men serving onboard should report to an Admiral.
The one thing I thought they should have covered in Triax 2 was the issue of no longer using the FSE-clips. Only one weapon in the book has it while they were the hottest thing in the first book. Another issue is that of the Uni-Max II. Mostly the artwork. If you are going to call something II, it should resemble the first one alittle. Its like a different PA. When I saw the stats of the Fat Boy (I do understand the need to upgrade equipment because of the "MDC inflation"), I had flashes of GDC weapons. Gold star to those who can tell which book those can be found in.

[Balabanto]

This book is an unqualified success. Most of the gear was mighty, but the fluff was better. And to me, that's the point of these things. I would rather have 200 pages of well written fluff than a billion pages of new weapons and "What out of the box robot will my heroes be fighting this week?"

A good GM can make up stuff for people to beat up.

[Braden Campbell]

Gold star to those who can tell which book those can be found in.

I'll say... Rifter #9.5

[johnkretzer]

Hey john, well yeah that's my gripe, I don't care for many of his PA and robot units or the fighter designs. But I actually find it really easy to theorize on where the technology of today is gonna be 80 yrs. from now (the basis of Rifts tech starts w/Chaos Earth) and then project 200+ yrs forward. So because my understanding of science is flawed I seek out those who know better than I and pick their brains and then work from there. So I actually end up w/a fairly good idea of where our tech can & will take us and then I use that to project for Rifts using RL(Real Life) tech & science as it's basis (which it really is) and wind up pretty damn close to what's in the game.
I also look for answers to questions that many players refuse to accept, like "Where does the CS get its resources?" and when I reply "They're in the US of A, what resources WE have they WILL still have 80 yrs from now and since the population was significantly reduced during the Apocalypse the use of those self same resources was also significantly reduced. So the CS is using the resources of the North American continent in the areas they control that haven't been touched for nearly 300+ yrs." Then people start crying "Bullsh*t" and ignore the facts simply because it doesn't suit them or they want the CS to be weaker than they are.
I respect Galactus Kid, and I respect the effort he put forth to create this work, but I disagree with it for honest, realistic reasons, not because I want to tear down his effort.
I also, generally, respect Braden Campbell. Yet again I disagree with his work because he's using essentially "fake tech" and following his own comment of being "a lazy GM".
I took the time and effort to read thru Triax 2 before posting, are based upon the work of the book and the previous World Bokks associated with it as well as my understanding of the tech at hand, plus a dose of common sense (as KS himself suggests). So my personal knowledge and my "common sense" cry out "NOOOOOOOOO!!!!" when I see his designs.

Fair enough. Two thing though...

I guess you hate the early Sci-Fi novels of the early 40's 50's etc...as well they turned out to be inaccurate? Those authors had backgrounds in science and scientist friends who they talked things over with...and well we don't have alot of things they predicted...though oddly enough we have some of things scientist at the time called impossible that they also predicted.

Second we are not all hard Sci-Fi fans....and I don't see a difference from tech presented WB:5 and WB:31. They seem to be internaly consistent. When has Rifts been a hard Sci-Fi type setting?

Also when I see som,ething that my 'common sense' and personal knowledge shouts 'NOOOOO!!!!' at...I change it and adapt it. So I am curious...how would you have done things differently? I think maybe that might be more helpful than just saying you think it is wrong.

Though the one critism of this book is that I really wished it explored more D-Bees races in Europe...and the Gargoyle Empire. But than I really were never much of a gear oriented person.

[Rimmer]

I just finished my student teaching (World History and Civics & Economics) so I understand where you are coming from. My little pet peeve about Underseas is that Karl should have been an Admiral, not a Captain. Huge ship with that large number of men serving onboard should report to an Admiral.
The one thing I thought they should have covered in Triax 2 was the issue of no longer using the FSE-clips. Only one weapon in the book has it while they were the hottest thing in the first book. Another issue is that of the Uni-Max II. Mostly the artwork. If you are going to call something II, it should resemble the first one alittle. Its like a different PA. When I saw the stats of the Fat Boy (I do understand the need to upgrade equipment because of the "MDC inflation"), I had flashes of GDC weapons. Gold star to those who can tell which book those can be found in.

My pet peeve with the FSE clips, was how they gave you a -1 penalty due to balance issues, if used one handed, no big with rifles I guess but when it came to pistols ?

Also, it never actually mentioned if you could use an FSE clip and a conventional short clip at the same time ?

[Brigoon]

I personnel like the book


But I have one complaint

On page 181 when they give the breakdown for what a NGR division is they note that it has six infantry companies, but says nothing on how many power armor cavalry companies.

other than the Division MTOE thing nagging me I think it is a great book.




Brigoon

[Prince Artemis]

Just one thing I'd like to offer here to Keir. You fell into your own trap earlier in the topic. You're criticizing things based on the science of today and extrapolating how it should work in the future, yet you said that the flying glitterboy, because it is heavier, should have a larger thruster. Not actually true. Most of the current tech resources are going into making smaller, more efficient thrusters that can push more weight. Heck, the jets that were recently developed to get us to mars are something like 10% the size and fuel cost of the current shuttle rockets.

I'm just explaining this to point out that just because how you see technology and it's progression does not mean it's how others see progression and tech, or even how it actually is. The writers are like you, and they actually do a large amount of research into their work, but they can only base it on what they find. You found different stuff, so you have a different view, but they can't read your mind or the minds of anyone else reading the book.

Plus, you have to look at 'common knowledge' and 'accepted truths'. If they were all accurate, myth busters wouldn't be going into their , what, 8th season now?

Finally, there is a wire act they have to follow here that you don't seem to be considering in your posts. They have to make things that are atleast reasonablly sci-fi, but they also have to make things that fit into the cannon of the world. A lot of the concepts in the main rifts book are changing from science fiction to science fact with our current progression in real life. (To clarify, I mean stuff that is approached is being either attempted or disproven, not that what palladium produced back then is factual and true). So they have to try and balance what is, with what has already been written. Which means, for the most part, the science used for rifts is rifts science, not real science, and it never makes the claim to be.

That being said, all the books are meant to be are tool boxes for the players and gms to use as they see fit, and change as they see fit.

For example, I'm not a huge fan of the fatman myself. I just don't see the purpose behind them. The dual boom gun is all well and good, but for a power armor of such limited mobility, it would have served better as some sort of artilery placement then bothering with the PA. My thinking is that power armors and robots are humanoid shaped for the ease of mobility and we tend to design things for a humanoid shape in general. But it's too stocky to really take advantage of that and too slow for active combat. But hey, I just don't use them.

Similiarly, I'm not a fan of the flying glitterboy as a flying unit itself. However, having a glitteryboy that can fly to get better positions and get behind enemy lines quicker, I'm all for that and that's how i use them.

[keir451]

@johnkretzer; Actually I still love the early Sci-Fi novels of the 40's & on (I'm currently re reading novels by Edgar Rice Burroughs ) even tho' much of their science was wrong I appreciate them for the time they were written in and the glimpses of the fantastic that they gave everyone (me included) which spurred on future generations of writers and scientists. It is in that same spirit that I appreciate the work that Galactus Kid does while still disagreeing with his results.
True that we are not all hard SF fans, but honestly I don't see ANY consistency in the new NGR units, while I can see the desire for a flight capable PA unit (GB or otherwise) the designs that he presented just don't work for me. I cannot see how adding bird like wings to a GB makes it a better unit. And while I can see how to make a GB flight capable, making it flight capable AND still be able to effectivley use it's Boom Gun is a stretch that defies reasonable acceptance for me. I also cannot see the NGR (or it's soldiers) actually WANTING to get into melee combat with a creature that could tear my robot limb from limb. Also while I kinda like the idea of Cyborg Fighters I can't see the NGR spending billions on this concept especially as they're even more costly to replace than a normal fighter and pilot. Using them as special forces ground or aerial units, Yes, I can see that. But not as replacements for regular humans, the concept of both the CS and NGR (to a greater or lesser degree) is still HUMAN supremacy. A cyborg while having a human brain, is no longer quite as "human" as he once was.
I do change and adapt things in Rifts all the timepriamrily becasue there are always "little things" in Rifts that need adjusting. I just draw the line at changing and adapting an entire world book, something that in my 20+ yrs of gaming I've never had to do.
As for Rifts being a Hard SF setting technically it's been there from day one, the moment KS introduced Robots and Power Armor and gave them realistic limitations like needing anti-sway systems or flight altitudes and such.

@Balabanto; Yes any average GM can come up w/your "monster of the day", a GOOD GM comes up w/something unique that grabs his players attention while STILL paying attention to the fine details.

@Prince Artemis; I understand your point, but you'd still be dealing w/ thrust vs weight ratios, you still need alot of thrust capacity to move something as heavy as a GB at the velocities listed and allow it to be manueverable, just as you need the same for a modern jet. And, again, the way the Gb's gun works means that you need alot if counter force so the unit as a whole isn't tossed back 30 ft. So you need not just enough thrust to move an unaerodynamic 1.5 ton unit thru the air, you also need even more counter thrust to hold it in position while it fires the gun, I (and my players and GM) just don't see it working so we can't accept it.
I see technology in Rifts as extensions of already existing tech, Yes. This is because we are getting closer and closer to those once fictional concepts as being reality, heck some of those once fictional concepts are already true. But even in gaming there's a limit to the fantastic, that limit is; It has to be believable. GK's gear, to me, isn't believable therefore I cannot accept his work even tho' I respect the EFFORT he put into it. I have much the same problem w/ Kevin Siembieda. I love the game but I get sick and tired of having to "fix" the little glitches in the system because he left something out or didn't clearly define something else.

[Balabanto]

Rifts is the most anti hard sci-fi game out there.

The combat system is based on the way combat works in Shaw Brothers movies, or, for an update filmed at a higher rate of speed, the movies of Tsui Hark and Yuen Woo Ping.

That being said, this book was probably one of the better gaming products released last year overall. Someone should nominate it for an Ennie or an Origins Award.

What this supplement did that a lot of other supplements do not do was give us information on how the society of the NGR actually works. That's what makes it a success, more so than many other Palladium products. Let's compare that to Psyscape, where less than three pages were devoted to culture, population, and government. We don't even know who runs this place. It's been almost 20 years.

Does Star Wars need hard science? Does The Lord of the Rings? These are Kevin's Models, not hard science fiction like Foundation. (It's a great book, but so what.)

If there's one thing I've learned, good stories can afford to ignore little details like that in the name of plot propulsion. Arguments like this always make me wonder where the fun is, as far as that's concerned. Games break down under the weight of what I like to call "Too much realism."

People fail to understand that realism is a philosophy, and has nothing to do with reality. As Rifts is so far from reality that any attempt to consider it such would be nuts, you can't use the concept of Realism in dealing with Rifts.

[keir451]

Rifts is the most anti hard sci-fi game out there.

The combat system is based on the way combat works in Shaw Brothers movies, or, for an update filmed at a higher rate of speed, the movies of Tsui Hark and Yuen Woo Ping.

That being said, this book was probably one of the better gaming products released last year overall. Someone should nominate it for an Ennie or an Origins Award.

What this supplement did that a lot of other supplements do not do was give us information on how the society of the NGR actually works. That's what makes it a success, more so than many other Palladium products. Let's compare that to Psyscape, where less than three pages were devoted to culture, population, and government. We don't even know who runs this place. It's been almost 20 years.

Does Star Wars need hard science? Does The Lord of the Rings? These are Kevin's Models, not hard science fiction like Foundation. (It's a great book, but so what.)

If there's one thing I've learned, good stories can afford to ignore little details like that in the name of plot propulsion. Arguments like this always make me wonder where the fun is, as far as that's concerned. Games break down under the weight of what I like to call "Too much realism."

People fail to understand that realism is a philosophy, and has nothing to do with reality. As Rifts is so far from reality that any attempt to consider it such would be nuts, you can't use the concept of Realism in dealing with Rifts.

I'm not sure I'd consider the Foundation novels hard SF, SF for sure (they're what I cut my teeth on as a lad). I consider Babylon 5 more of an example of what I consider hard SF, and while I, too, use both Star Wars and StarTrek as some of my sources I don't exclusively take only from them. I like to apply the hard science as opposed to non science because that way I can support my decisions as Gm w/ hard facts as well as the game rules. This, for me, prevents munchkinism, and rules lawyering by morons, it also adds a level of depth and "realism" to the game that everyone enjoys. I daresay even you might enjoy one of our game sessions despite the level of realism we use. I've honestly foud that by applying real science to Rifts the game actually makes MORE sense and is easier too run than by following the standard quasi science most people accept.
As for Kevin using Lord of the Rings as one of his models, I don't agree. Very little (if anything) out of Rifts reminds me of Lord of the Rings except Dwarves, Elves and Dragons (a Rifts Dragon is NO match for Smaug), the rest smacks of pure 1st and 2nd edition D&D.

[Balabanto]

Rifts is the most anti hard sci-fi game out there.

The combat system is based on the way combat works in Shaw Brothers movies, or, for an update filmed at a higher rate of speed, the movies of Tsui Hark and Yuen Woo Ping.

That being said, this book was probably one of the better gaming products released last year overall. Someone should nominate it for an Ennie or an Origins Award.

What this supplement did that a lot of other supplements do not do was give us information on how the society of the NGR actually works. That's what makes it a success, more so than many other Palladium products. Let's compare that to Psyscape, where less than three pages were devoted to culture, population, and government. We don't even know who runs this place. It's been almost 20 years.

Does Star Wars need hard science? Does The Lord of the Rings? These are Kevin's Models, not hard science fiction like Foundation. (It's a great book, but so what.)

If there's one thing I've learned, good stories can afford to ignore little details like that in the name of plot propulsion. Arguments like this always make me wonder where the fun is, as far as that's concerned. Games break down under the weight of what I like to call "Too much realism."

People fail to understand that realism is a philosophy, and has nothing to do with reality. As Rifts is so far from reality that any attempt to consider it such would be nuts, you can't use the concept of Realism in dealing with Rifts.

I'm not sure I'd consider the Foundation novels hard SF, SF for sure (they're what I cut my teeth on as a lad). I consider Babylon 5 more of an example of what I consider hard SF, and while I, too, use both Star Wars and StarTrek as some of my sources I don't exclusively take only from them. I like to apply the hard science as opposed to non science because that way I can support my decisions as Gm w/ hard facts as well as the game rules. This, for me, prevents munchkinism, and rules lawyering by morons, it also adds a level of depth and "realism" to the game that everyone enjoys. I daresay even you might enjoy one of our game sessions despite the level of realism we use. I've honestly foud that by applying real science to Rifts the game actually makes MORE sense and is easier too run than by following the standard quasi science most people accept.
As for Kevin using Lord of the Rings as one of his models, I don't agree. Very little (if anything) out of Rifts reminds me of Lord of the Rings except Dwarves, Elves and Dragons (a Rifts Dragon is NO match for Smaug), the rest smacks of pure 1st and 2nd edition D&D.

I probably would enjoy one of your sessions. I've just found that excessive realism leads to ******* behavior from the players, along with a lot of deadly interparty conflict where everyone keeps their cards really close to the chest, you never really know your fellow adventurers, and every so often, the characters murder each other in their sleep and assassinate each other. This is not FUN for me. The "One mistake and you die" school of gaming is really awesome, I used to play Shadowrun and be very, very good at it, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't produce as much stress at the table as it seems.

[keir451]

Yeah it can get stressful, luckily tho' we don't tolerate the backstabbing behavior in our games for the very reasons you mentioned.
We don't quite use the "one mistake and you die" concept but your actions DO indeed have consequences so that if you do something truly, spectacularly stupid you probably will die. The real difference I might say is that we apply this to even MDC creatures. For example; We say that if a dragon jumps from the top of Chi-town and doesn't slow his descent he'll smack into the ground and take MDC damage from the fall and possibly kill himself. Why? Because to us the physics of the game are essentially the same as relaity so it affects everyone equally.

[Nightmask]

Yeah it can get stressful, luckily tho' we don't tolerate the backstabbing behavior in our games for the very reasons you mentioned.
We don't quite use the "one mistake and you die" concept but your actions DO indeed have consequences so that if you do something truly, spectacularly stupid you probably will die. The real difference I might say is that we apply this to even MDC creatures. For example; We say that if a dragon jumps from the top of Chi-town and doesn't slow his descent he'll smack into the ground and take MDC damage from the fall and possibly kill himself. Why? Because to us the physics of the game are essentially the same as relaity so it affects everyone equally.

I can't imagine freefall damage would be anywhere close to what it'd take to really hurt let alone kill a dragon, I mean they tend to shrug off Glitter Boy attacks and while freefall is fairly certain to kill even some high SDC creatures we're talking a MD creature. Given they can explicitly do the 'cover a grenade' maneuver and survive it if they've got enough MDC there's no reason for a dragon to freefall and take damage, if anything he ought to hit, crunch the ground, and get up and dust himself off.

[jaymz]

Yeah it can get stressful, luckily tho' we don't tolerate the backstabbing behavior in our games for the very reasons you mentioned.
We don't quite use the "one mistake and you die" concept but your actions DO indeed have consequences so that if you do something truly, spectacularly stupid you probably will die. The real difference I might say is that we apply this to even MDC creatures. For example; We say that if a dragon jumps from the top of Chi-town and doesn't slow his descent he'll smack into the ground and take MDC damage from the fall and possibly kill himself. Why? Because to us the physics of the game are essentially the same as relaity so it affects everyone equally.

I can't imagine freefall damage would be anywhere close to what it'd take to really hurt let alone kill a dragon, I mean they tend to shrug off Glitter Boy attacks and while freefall is fairly certain to kill even some high SDC creatures we're talking a MD creature. Given they can explicitly do the 'cover a grenade' maneuver and survive it if they've got enough MDC there's no reason for a dragon to freefall and take damage, if anything he ought to hit, crunch the ground, and get up and dust himself off.

Much like many a comic book super hero

[Nightmask]

Yeah it can get stressful, luckily tho' we don't tolerate the backstabbing behavior in our games for the very reasons you mentioned.
We don't quite use the "one mistake and you die" concept but your actions DO indeed have consequences so that if you do something truly, spectacularly stupid you probably will die. The real difference I might say is that we apply this to even MDC creatures. For example; We say that if a dragon jumps from the top of Chi-town and doesn't slow his descent he'll smack into the ground and take MDC damage from the fall and possibly kill himself. Why? Because to us the physics of the game are essentially the same as relaity so it affects everyone equally.

I can't imagine freefall damage would be anywhere close to what it'd take to really hurt let alone kill a dragon, I mean they tend to shrug off Glitter Boy attacks and while freefall is fairly certain to kill even some high SDC creatures we're talking a MD creature. Given they can explicitly do the 'cover a grenade' maneuver and survive it if they've got enough MDC there's no reason for a dragon to freefall and take damage, if anything he ought to hit, crunch the ground, and get up and dust himself off.

Much like many a comic book super hero

Well much like the tank heroes anyway, Hawkeye's still good as dead or at least in a hospital ward for a while doing something like that. Hulk on the other hand doesn't even get a scratch from something like that, even fiery reentry from space is unlikely to do more than stun him. A hatchling dragon might need some Bio-Regeneration time before he can fly off but a mature dragon I could see doing the freefall just for the hell of it since he knows it won't hurt someone like him.

[The Galactus Kid]

Yeah it can get stressful, luckily tho' we don't tolerate the backstabbing behavior in our games for the very reasons you mentioned.
We don't quite use the "one mistake and you die" concept but your actions DO indeed have consequences so that if you do something truly, spectacularly stupid you probably will die. The real difference I might say is that we apply this to even MDC creatures. For example; We say that if a dragon jumps from the top of Chi-town and doesn't slow his descent he'll smack into the ground and take MDC damage from the fall and possibly kill himself. Why? Because to us the physics of the game are essentially the same as relaity so it affects everyone equally.

I can't imagine freefall damage would be anywhere close to what it'd take to really hurt let alone kill a dragon, I mean they tend to shrug off Glitter Boy attacks and while freefall is fairly certain to kill even some high SDC creatures we're talking a MD creature. Given they can explicitly do the 'cover a grenade' maneuver and survive it if they've got enough MDC there's no reason for a dragon to freefall and take damage, if anything he ought to hit, crunch the ground, and get up and dust himself off.

Much like many a comic book super hero

My best friend is an Engineer and he always knows when we're gaming. We text him a lot with conversations going something like this:

Hey Mike, I need to know the terminal velocity of a bear.

What kind of bear?

um...a were-bear.

ok...Like grizzly sized? Kodiak? Polar? koala? what are we talking about?

Grizzly.

How much does he weigh?

(I give the weight)

What position is he in while falling?

Lying flat trying to slow his descent.

How far is he falling? He may not eve reach terminal velocity.

A half mile.

(He replies with calculation for approximate terminal velocity.) Oh and by the way, he's not going to take any damage from the fall. hes a were-bear...effing nerd.

Thanks. I thought of that. Enjoy lame-ass Pennsylvania.

[keir451]

@Nightmask; The application of physics still applies to the dragon as it's still flesh and blood. The concept of F=Ma applies especially to a being in flight or of greater weight/mass. The damage taken is still the equivalent of MDC. Hydrstatic shock is still hydrostatic shock. What a Dragon is MORE likely to do upon seeing a GB is change shape or teleport outta there as he can still be killed if he takes enough damage or gets his head blown off. Think about it for a second, the GB's rounds are travelling at Mach 5, what do you really think is gonna happen when those rounds impact a flesh and blood body? For us it means if your in Body Armor you generally don't want to go up against a GB w/out some serious forethought 'cause if you get hit your armor is most likely toats and you're a puddle of goo. That's 200 slugs moving at over 3,500 mph, even tho' they only weigh individually about 2oz., that's 2 oz. x 200/16oz (1lb)= 25lbs x 3,5000 mph = 875,000 lbs of force. I don't care what you are that's gonna hurt.
Of course it IS Chi-town, so they're gonna go sledding down the side instead.
Better example, use the Sears Tower instead.

@jaymz; Yah super heroes are a relative exception (thus we don't use them all that much they're too munchkin), some (like Supes) still get concussed, others can shrug it off, others still go splat.

[Nightmask]

@Nightmask; The application of physics still applies to the dragon as it's still flesh and blood. The concept of F=Ma applies especially to a being in flight or of greater weight/mass. The damage taken is still the equivalent of MDC. Hydrstatic shock is still hydrostatic shock. What a Dragon is MORE likely to do upon seeing a GB is change shape or teleport outta there as he can still be killed if he takes enough damage or gets his head blown off. Think about it for a second, the GB's rounds are travelling at Mach 5, what do you really think is gonna happen when those rounds impact a flesh and blood body? For us it means if your in Body Armor you generally don't want to go up against a GB w/out some serious forethought 'cause if you get hit your armor is most likely toats and you're a puddle of goo. That's 200 slugs moving at over 3,500 mph, even tho' they only weigh individually about 2oz., that's 2 oz. x 200/16oz (1lb)= 25lbs x 3,5000 mph = 875,000 lbs of force. I don't care what you are that's gonna hurt.
Of course it IS Chi-town, so they're gonna go sledding down the side instead.
Better example, use the Sears Tower instead.

@jaymz; Yah super heroes are a relative exception (thus we don't use them all that much they're too munchkin), some (like Supes) still get concussed, others can shrug it off, others still go splat.

That really doesn't make much sense, given characters like dragons are noted all over the place as facing off against all sorts of threats and taking tons of MD because of their contempt for mere mortals yet a little fall is going to kill it? Really doesn't track. As far as the physics go, I know what's going to happen the dragon takes a good dose of kinetic energy damage that his massive regenerative ability is going to start repairing almost immediately and in the case of the freefall he's going to take a lot less damage than he would from a Glitter Boy attack.

It fails logic that a creature with MDC in the thousands can be depicted as engaging in a bloody battle taking 90% of his MDC and heal back from that to perfect in a few hours would suffer worse even lethal damage from a fall. That's injecting too much reality as its ignoring the very real fact that dragons aren't just flesh and blood and are creatures of powerful magic and MD flesh throughout which is going to mitigate the damage that they take whether from a Glitter Boy or a fall. It's not like they just have MD body armor and weak flesh inside, they're MD all the way through and simply aren't going to take that damage like a Juicer would making that fall.

[keir451]

@Nightmask; The application of physics still applies to the dragon as it's still flesh and blood. The concept of F=Ma applies especially to a being in flight or of greater weight/mass. The damage taken is still the equivalent of MDC. Hydrstatic shock is still hydrostatic shock. What a Dragon is MORE likely to do upon seeing a GB is change shape or teleport outta there as he can still be killed if he takes enough damage or gets his head blown off. Think about it for a second, the GB's rounds are travelling at Mach 5, what do you really think is gonna happen when those rounds impact a flesh and blood body? For us it means if your in Body Armor you generally don't want to go up against a GB w/out some serious forethought 'cause if you get hit your armor is most likely toats and you're a puddle of goo. That's 200 slugs moving at over 3,500 mph, even tho' they only weigh individually about 2oz., that's 2 oz. x 200/16oz (1lb)= 25lbs x 3,5000 mph = 875,000 lbs of force. I don't care what you are that's gonna hurt.
Of course it IS Chi-town, so they're gonna go sledding down the side instead.
Better example, use the Sears Tower instead.

@jaymz; Yah super heroes are a relative exception (thus we don't use them all that much they're too munchkin), some (like Supes) still get concussed, others can shrug it off, others still go splat.

That really doesn't make much sense, given characters like dragons are noted all over the place as facing off against all sorts of threats and taking tons of MD because of their contempt for mere mortals yet a little fall is going to kill it? Really doesn't track. As far as the physics go, I know what's going to happen the dragon takes a good dose of kinetic energy damage that his massive regenerative ability is going to start repairing almost immediately and in the case of the freefall he's going to take a lot less damage than he would from a Glitter Boy attack.

It fails logic that a creature with MDC in the thousands can be depicted as engaging in a bloody battle taking 90% of his MDC and heal back from that to perfect in a few hours would suffer worse even lethal damage from a fall. That's injecting too much reality as its ignoring the very real fact that dragons aren't just flesh and blood and are creatures of powerful magic and MD flesh throughout which is going to mitigate the damage that they take whether from a Glitter Boy or a fall. It's not like they just have MD body armor and weak flesh inside, they're MD all the way through and simply aren't going to take that damage like a Juicer would making that fall.

Flesh and blood is still flesh and blood wether MDC or non, could he regenerate? Conceivably, if he didn't land on his head or as long as the damage doesn't exceed his total, but he still takes damage equivalent to his mass times his level of acceleration.

[Balabanto]

Yeah it can get stressful, luckily tho' we don't tolerate the backstabbing behavior in our games for the very reasons you mentioned.
We don't quite use the "one mistake and you die" concept but your actions DO indeed have consequences so that if you do something truly, spectacularly stupid you probably will die. The real difference I might say is that we apply this to even MDC creatures. For example; We say that if a dragon jumps from the top of Chi-town and doesn't slow his descent he'll smack into the ground and take MDC damage from the fall and possibly kill himself. Why? Because to us the physics of the game are essentially the same as relaity so it affects everyone equally.

Well, my house rule is that falling damage you take according to your damage type, because otherwise you get REALLY stupid results. I'm still trying to fix the !#!ing sharpshooting rules, which broke apart when they changed the combat system. Basically, the quick fix is that a sharpshooter should be able to aim and call in two actions instead of three, but that leads to howls from players who can't do it, so I'm looking at other solutions.

[The Galactus Kid]

This isn't even my thread, and I even contributed to the derailment, but lets stay on topic.

[Nightmask]

@Nightmask; The application of physics still applies to the dragon as it's still flesh and blood. The concept of F=Ma applies especially to a being in flight or of greater weight/mass. The damage taken is still the equivalent of MDC. Hydrstatic shock is still hydrostatic shock. What a Dragon is MORE likely to do upon seeing a GB is change shape or teleport outta there as he can still be killed if he takes enough damage or gets his head blown off. Think about it for a second, the GB's rounds are travelling at Mach 5, what do you really think is gonna happen when those rounds impact a flesh and blood body? For us it means if your in Body Armor you generally don't want to go up against a GB w/out some serious forethought 'cause if you get hit your armor is most likely toats and you're a puddle of goo. That's 200 slugs moving at over 3,500 mph, even tho' they only weigh individually about 2oz., that's 2 oz. x 200/16oz (1lb)= 25lbs x 3,5000 mph = 875,000 lbs of force. I don't care what you are that's gonna hurt.
Of course it IS Chi-town, so they're gonna go sledding down the side instead.
Better example, use the Sears Tower instead.

@jaymz; Yah super heroes are a relative exception (thus we don't use them all that much they're too munchkin), some (like Supes) still get concussed, others can shrug it off, others still go splat.

That really doesn't make much sense, given characters like dragons are noted all over the place as facing off against all sorts of threats and taking tons of MD because of their contempt for mere mortals yet a little fall is going to kill it? Really doesn't track. As far as the physics go, I know what's going to happen the dragon takes a good dose of kinetic energy damage that his massive regenerative ability is going to start repairing almost immediately and in the case of the freefall he's going to take a lot less damage than he would from a Glitter Boy attack.

It fails logic that a creature with MDC in the thousands can be depicted as engaging in a bloody battle taking 90% of his MDC and heal back from that to perfect in a few hours would suffer worse even lethal damage from a fall. That's injecting too much reality as its ignoring the very real fact that dragons aren't just flesh and blood and are creatures of powerful magic and MD flesh throughout which is going to mitigate the damage that they take whether from a Glitter Boy or a fall. It's not like they just have MD body armor and weak flesh inside, they're MD all the way through and simply aren't going to take that damage like a Juicer would making that fall.

Flesh and blood is still flesh and blood wether MDC or non, could he regenerate? Conceivably, if he didn't land on his head or as long as the damage doesn't exceed his total, but he still takes damage equivalent to his mass times his level of acceleration.

Sounds like a house rule, given terminal velocity is pretty slow and no flesh and blood isn't still flesh and blood as whether it's SDC or MDC flesh very much matters. There is no acceleration at that point, speed is a constant and again it's ignoring the accepted facts about such things as Dragons to treat them like they're normal flesh and blood humans, they aren't. Their flesh, bones, connective tissues, everything about them is beyond anything natural flesh and blood can achieve and simply aren't subject to taking more than what would be trivial damage from such a fall. If you can kill it from a fall like that it isn't a dragon because dragons aren't killed by such things.

[RoadWarriorFWaNK]

That being said, this book was probably one of the better gaming products released last year overall. Someone should nominate it for an Ennie or an Origins Award.

that's very flattering. Can't say I disagree

[The Galactus Kid]

That being said, this book was probably one of the better gaming products released last year overall. Someone should nominate it for an Ennie or an Origins Award.

that's very flattering. Can't say I disagree

Yeah, that would be pretty awesome. Personally, I don't know how much I value I put into those, but I'll take what I can get. hahaha

[johnkretzer]

@Keir451: I always loved Heinlien myself from that time period.

I understand your point. And I like realism in my games too(more than the people I play with) but I am not a scientific type person...so the minor point elude me. I am also willing to suspend my personal knowledge and go with the flow. Who know what science will bring in the future...as those authors were wrong in their day....we might be wrong today.

My only problem with science realism is that while it sorta stops the non-science type person to munchkin...it allows a player with greater science knowledge then the GM to munchkin alot worse. But I am sure you and your players don't do that.

And I understand why you might not like the book...as it would seem to be alot to change for you. But I think the book makes sense in the world info that it outweighs the tech problems. And to me it is actual realistic that civilian vehicles would be SDC not MDC. Three reason why.

1) As pointed out before any goverment would like to control the MDC material as it is power.

2) The cost...and the rarity of MDC material I would think the goverment would tation it to those who need it( IE the military and the special police units police).

3) I would imagine the damage from a crashing MDC car would be considerably more than say a SDC one. Heck if you would allow MDC civilian vehicles...all vehicles would have to be MDC just for safety reasons. Most cars safety feature are based around the crumple zones...I don't think MDC crumples.

[dark brandon]

I think something to remember is that when writing there are priorities on which you need to focus. The first is the players. How are the players going to use this? will they enjoy it? will they even use it? Generally speaking, while tanks and such are cool...honestly few people probably play them. For one, they require more than 1 person to pilot at least fully. Most players want their own 'thing'. Most people complain about the dev. but as galactis kid pointed out, how many have actually played it with a full crew? Honestly, it doesn't seem like very many. So, anything that requires multi-pilots isn't going to be utilized, at least not as often as anything that requires 1 pilot. Making Robots also avoids that classic discussion "hey, hey...a tank can't "dodge"". Well, lets just avoid that and make this cool killing machine a PA. Now, no more arguments. It's just like a human with a missle launcher for a head.

After that, comes setting. Does this fit into this setting? Would the CS have a giant happy face robot? Probably not. this is athestics, but is the second most important thing there is. It has to fit.

Finally comes the "details". this is the science. the cost. In a real world setting, rifts would be boring. No giant robots. Sorry, they are costly and not very effective. As someone said, things are getting smaller, not bigger. Second is cost. We dont' have 100's of types of jets. We have a very select few. And thats here in america.

For example, I'm not a huge fan of the fatman myself. I just don't see the purpose behind them. The dual boom gun is all well and good, but for a power armor of such limited mobility, it would have served better as some sort of artilery placement then bothering with the PA. My thinking is that power armors and robots are humanoid shaped for the ease of mobility and we tend to design things for a humanoid shape in general. But it's too stocky to really take advantage of that and too slow for active combat. But hey, I just don't use them.

Probably. But it's not as fun as having a PA. This will be used (probably) in a city clearing campaign staring the players. This is also going to be far more effective against tech opponents than gargs. (Brodkil). It's going to be primarily probably dropped into places with those air lifts and used I believe in slow pushes and in "turtleing", because turtling against zergs is with arc-light canons is fun. Oh god, they are so squishy! By making it PA, you allowing it to be a serious option to be played in a campaign with players.

Similiarly, I'm not a fan of the flying glitterboy as a flying unit itself. However, having a glitteryboy that can fly to get better positions and get behind enemy lines quicker, I'm all for that and that's how i use them.

This is kind of how I envision them. If I ever GM a game with them, they won't be able to fire in the air. But, for mobility and flanking, that's what these guys are.

[dark brandon]

Mister Galactus Kid, Sir.....


I have only ONE complaint with your book....and it might NOT be what you think it is.


My only complaint with your book.....is that the future looked a little bit TOO sunny for the NGR!!

Between the Robo-Furry spies, the Egg Killers, the internecine strife between the various Clans, and the newly-christened NGR Air Force, it looks to me as if the NGR is ultimately going to have less trouble with tens of millions of armed and armored Gargoyles and Brodkil than the whole North American continent combined is going to have with a measly four million, relatively unintelligent and unarmed Xiticix.


Liked the book otherwise, and hope that, at least, there will be some sort of 'official Rifter' material laying out what, if anything, Lord Splynncryth and/or Rama-Set will do to even the odds.......

I talked with one of the writers about this. I will say there is a new enemy on the screen and the brodkil are underestimated. Brodkil to me are a very dangerous threat because they use tech, which is something the ngr has over the gargs. Take away range and mobility (2 big advantages they have against the gargs) and they are in a more dangerous spot. they still have better training and leadership, but NGR my very well have social disorder to mix in with this.

I liked the book, for a few reasons.

1) There was stuff in there for really everyone. You wanted toys, you got it. You wanted a society, you got it. You wanted background info, you got it. You wanted a more detailed part of the world (which allows for more campaign options), you got it. Not everyone liked it (there are some parts I don't like) but, there were parts I did like.

2) Power-creep. It was in there, but in a much better way. I dislike power-creep because 99% of the time, it just goes "up". More damage, more range...ect...I'm glad to see that Brandon Aten increased NGR's power without advancing power-creep too much by expanding outwards, not upwards, shown with weapons that (for lack of better term) have increased crit range.

[keir451]

@Keir451: I always loved Heinlien myself from that time period.

I understand your point. And I like realism in my games too(more than the people I play with) but I am not a scientific type person...so the minor point elude me. I am also willing to suspend my personal knowledge and go with the flow. Who know what science will bring in the future...as those authors were wrong in their day....we might be wrong today.

My only problem with science realism is that while it sorta stops the non-science type person to munchkin...it allows a player with greater science knowledge then the GM to munchkin alot worse. But I am sure you and your players don't do that.

And I understand why you might not like the book...as it would seem to be alot to change for you. But I think the book makes sense in the world info that it outweighs the tech problems. And to me it is actual realistic that civilian vehicles would be SDC not MDC. Three reason why.

1) As pointed out before any goverment would like to control the MDC material as it is power.

2) The cost...and the rarity of MDC material I would think the goverment would tation it to those who need it( IE the military and the special police units police).

3) I would imagine the damage from a crashing MDC car would be considerably more than say a SDC one. Heck if you would allow MDC civilian vehicles...all vehicles would have to be MDC just for safety reasons. Most cars safety feature are based around the crumple zones...I don't think MDC crumples.

There have been others who cried foul when I once said "What MDC cars?" so I guess I'm playing Devil's Advocate here. I can kinda see both sides the safety issue and the gov't concern over wasted materials. Yet the NGR produces weapons and equipment that they sell to mercs and other Kingdoms so it seems kinda funky that they'd allow potential enemies the chance to get there hands on this stuff and cause way more havoc than a random civilian.
As for my science I live w/ 3 people one has a Masters in Geo Chem, another is my GM who weaned off of handwavium in the first place, the other is an auto mechanic & budding engineer.
There are limits to it all tho' we accept that Dragons are incredibly tough and can survive most things a normal human can't, but even under the circumstances that would kill a human dead we do reasonable damage to the dragon. If a dragon falls from let's say orbit, thenif he doesn't stop himself or teleport away he's goo on the ground, now if he falls from say the height of the Sears Tower, he's probably going to take some relatively minor damage (relative to his scale) and depending on how and where he strikes himself.

[glitterboy2098]

Yeah it can get stressful, luckily tho' we don't tolerate the backstabbing behavior in our games for the very reasons you mentioned.
We don't quite use the "one mistake and you die" concept but your actions DO indeed have consequences so that if you do something truly, spectacularly stupid you probably will die. The real difference I might say is that we apply this to even MDC creatures. For example; We say that if a dragon jumps from the top of Chi-town and doesn't slow his descent he'll smack into the ground and take MDC damage from the fall and possibly kill himself. Why? Because to us the physics of the game are essentially the same as relaity so it affects everyone equally.

I can't imagine freefall damage would be anywhere close to what it'd take to really hurt let alone kill a dragon, I mean they tend to shrug off Glitter Boy attacks and while freefall is fairly certain to kill even some high SDC creatures we're talking a MD creature. Given they can explicitly do the 'cover a grenade' maneuver and survive it if they've got enough MDC there's no reason for a dragon to freefall and take damage, if anything he ought to hit, crunch the ground, and get up and dust himself off.

Much like many a comic book super hero

My best friend is an Engineer and he always knows when we're gaming. We text him a lot with conversations going something like this:
Hey Mike, I need to know the terminal velocity of a bear.
What kind of bear?
um...a were-bear.
ok...Like grizzly sized? Kodiak? Polar? koala? what are we talking about?
Grizzly.
How much does he weigh?
(I give the weight)
What position is he in while falling?
Lying flat trying to slow his descent.
How far is he falling? He may not eve reach terminal velocity.
A half mile.
(He replies with calculation for approximate terminal velocity.) Oh and by the way, he's not going to take any damage from the fall. hes a were-bear...effing nerd.
Thanks. I thought of that. Enjoy lame-ass Pennsylvania.

sounds alot like my questions to Phalanx about aviation issues, or to my freind Cray over on a different forum about general technology issues. many weird discussions i've had doing research..

[keir451]

Mister Galactus Kid, Sir.....


I have only ONE complaint with your book....and it might NOT be what you think it is.


My only complaint with your book.....is that the future looked a little bit TOO sunny for the NGR!!

Between the Robo-Furry spies, the Egg Killers, the internecine strife between the various Clans, and the newly-christened NGR Air Force, it looks to me as if the NGR is ultimately going to have less trouble with tens of millions of armed and armored Gargoyles and Brodkil than the whole North American continent combined is going to have with a measly four million, relatively unintelligent and unarmed Xiticix.


Liked the book otherwise, and hope that, at least, there will be some sort of 'official Rifter' material laying out what, if anything, Lord Splynncryth and/or Rama-Set will do to even the odds.......

I talked with one of the writers about this. I will say there is a new enemy on the screen and the brodkil are underestimated. Brodkil to me are a very dangerous threat because they use tech, which is something the ngr has over the gargs. Take away range and mobility (2 big advantages they have against the gargs) and they are in a more dangerous spot. they still have better training and leadership, but NGR my very well have social disorder to mix in with this.

I liked the book, for a few reasons.

1) There was stuff in there for really everyone. You wanted toys, you got it. You wanted a society, you got it. You wanted background info, you got it. You wanted a more detailed part of the world (which allows for more campaign options), you got it. Not everyone liked it (there are some parts I don't like) but, there were parts I did like.

2) Power-creep. It was in there, but in a much better way. I dislike power-creep because 99% of the time, it just goes "up". More damage, more range...ect...I'm glad to see that Brandon Aten increased NGR's power without advancing power-creep too much by expanding outwards, not upwards, shown with weapons that (for lack of better term) have increased crit range.

Interseting observations.
@dark brandon, that's part of my problem is that I s"see" how these GB units "fit" the NGR. They built their own GB but decided not to use chromium armor as it didn't fit w/ their military. Now I'm not saying they can't change their minds, but the "sudden" appearance of new and extremely specialized GB's in a country that has spent years building a cohesive force w/complimenting support equipment just was too much for me to accept, it just didn't "fit".
In a real world setting, hmm ya never know. I've met some military officers who'd love it if we could produce battletech style mechs. Even tho' things are trending towars more cpmpact there's something to bre said for a 50ft. tall warmachine striding across the battlefield decimating equipment and troops as it goes.
The problem w/ the Fat Boy is, again, it just doesn't fit. Why dump all that money into something like that when the Devastator works even better? Sure from a player standpoint it kinda works, in the "Yay, I get my own PA unit to play with!" concept, but it just doesn't fit the NGR's over all theme to me.

[sHaka]

Triax 2 is so full of awesome sauce that I keep my copy in the kitchen cupboard. The background fluff alone was worth the admission fee - and we finally found out about that mysterious Rahu-man - plus it gives us things that make other things explode in spades. And the Longstrike is simply hawt

I like the fatboy, can't see what the fuss is about?

[Sureshot]

See for me when I see a large weapon I expect it to do a lot of damage. Using the Devestator main gun as an example a wepaon that size should be doing a lot more damage. Unless you give a good ingame reason for it not doing so than one could ignore the poor damage. For example on rifts earth energy wepaons technology is not as efficent or somethng along those lines. One can only suspend disbelief so many times until it becomes the responsability of the writers to make more realistic weapons. Read realistic not scientific realistic. A large cannon will always do more damage than a hand held weapons. with very few exceptions and those need to have a reason beyon "because they can".

The nerfing of large scale vehilce weapons to me seemed to be a very misguided attempt to increase the survivablilty of characters. Except the Rifts is pushed as a dangerous deadly world yet your nerfing damage values to increase player surviviability. It also makes the game somewhat of a running joke in the gaming community. The difference in damage values harms and hurts the game when you try and sell it. I have introduced some of my gamign circle to Rifts and other PB books rpgs. They will all read the books yet nmost of them cannot get into Rifts because of how nerfed the damage values are compared to hand held weapons. Lack of imagination is not a factor they all have good imaginations. As I said if their would be a logical good reason for the damage values to be so different I thinik it would be easier to accept. Now not so much.

[dark brandon]

Interseting observations.
@dark brandon, that's part of my problem is that I s"see" how these GB units "fit" the NGR. They built their own GB but decided not to use chromium armor as it didn't fit w/ their military. Now I'm not saying they can't change their minds, but the "sudden" appearance of new and extremely specialized GB's in a country that has spent years building a cohesive force w/complimenting support equipment just was too much for me to accept, it just didn't "fit".
In a real world setting, hmm ya never know. I've met some military officers who'd love it if we could produce battletech style mechs. Even tho' things are trending towars more cpmpact there's something to bre said for a 50ft. tall warmachine striding across the battlefield decimating equipment and troops as it goes.

There are lots of people who would love 50ft mechs, but the reality is, you'll never see it. It's a big expensive target. If you look at what's being built, it's little no-descript robots toy...things...they can go places people can't, cost effective while still being very combat effective.

[Sureshot]

If a reboot of the system ever does happen I'm 1000% sure that one of the things that almost everybody will request is to fix the wonky damage values. It's all good to say houserule it yet those interested will put your product to the side and play an rpg tht takes that into account. Imo it's up tp the game system as is to convince the player not the other way around.

[keir451]

@dark brandon; I agree that 50ft. mechs will most likely never be built in our present lifetimes, but as my momma always used to say, "Don't count your chickens until they're hatched." . I know that if I had access to the technology to build something like a Battlemech I'd do regardless of the cost (of course I'd have to be disgustingly wealthy to pull it off ).
@Sureshot; I agree 100,000% with you good sir! It has always been up to the game system to convince players. That is the core of my problem w/ Triax 2, the military equipment (minus most of the guns)does not convince me.I felt, in part, that the inclusion pf specialized Glitteboy units did not fit with the way the NGR was depicted.
I see no reason why Triax would produce the X-1471 Wolfhound Robot, I can understanthat a company may wish to try new designs, but to me it does not fit the theme of a humanocentric military and government. Now if this were the Wolfen Republic down in Italy, certainly, but (IMO) not Triax or the NGR. The Longstrike, again does not fit the image of the NGR, IMO. I beleive that they already had long range strike capabilities with the Jagers in the form of attachable missile drums visually it reminds of the cartoon Exo-squad(which was really cool!!!) or Ripley's forklift mech from Aliens. It comes across as too bulky and I see it's speed as too slow for what Triax and the NGR can produce.
Next up the Faust, while Triax did once produce a unit with chainsaws, I cannot see the value or effectiveness of a strictly melee design (this ain't mecha Su-Dai ya know ) especially going up against enemies with the strength to rip the arms off power armor/robots. The Griffon.... , again a unit that makes no sense to me as it is slow mving in camaprison to other Triax units and is too easily swarmed or overrun.
The Talon, a 20 ton flying robot, OK I'll the coolness factor of a 20 ton flying robot but again I feel this unit does not fit, it is far easier for Triax to produce flying power armor than to spend the energy and materials upon a 20 ton flying robot with wings.
The Gunman; the artwork personally reminds more of a Naruni unit, but is OK overal,l I don't like the placement of the leg missile launchers. Should they be destroyed with the missiles still in them there's too great a potential for damage to the leg itself and cripling the unit.
The Sharpshooter is another one that doesn't "work" for me, I understand the idea, but didn't Triax already have a Jager that could do much the same?

[jaymz]

My best friend is an Engineer and he always knows when we're gaming. We text him a lot with conversations going something like this:

Hey Mike, I need to know the terminal velocity of a bear.

What kind of bear?

um...a were-bear.

ok...Like grizzly sized? Kodiak? Polar? koala? what are we talking about?

Grizzly.

How much does he weigh?

(I give the weight)

What position is he in while falling?

Lying flat trying to slow his descent.

How far is he falling? He may not eve reach terminal velocity.

A half mile.

(He replies with calculation for approximate terminal velocity.) Oh and by the way, he's not going to take any damage from the fall. hes a were-bear...effing nerd.

Thanks. I thought of that. Enjoy lame-ass Pennsylvania.

OMG "lol" "lol" sounds liek what we do during our sessiosn face to face

[keir451]

My best friend is an Engineer and he always knows when we're gaming. We text him a lot with conversations going something like this:

Hey Mike, I need to know the terminal velocity of a bear.

What kind of bear?

um...a were-bear.

ok...Like grizzly sized? Kodiak? Polar? koala? what are we talking about?

Grizzly.

How much does he weigh?

(I give the weight)

What position is he in while falling?

Lying flat trying to slow his descent.

How far is he falling? He may not eve reach terminal velocity.

A half mile.

(He replies with calculation for approximate terminal velocity.) Oh and by the way, he's not going to take any damage from the fall. hes a were-bear...effing nerd.

Thanks. I thought of that. Enjoy lame-ass Pennsylvania.

OMG "lol" "lol" sounds liek what we do during our sessiosn face to face

@ GK; Terminal velocity is terminal velocity, all that matters is how fast you reach it. The heavier the object the faster it will reach terminal velocity and even supernatural beings have limits to their regeneration levels, specifically if you exceed the level of damage the being can take they are simply dead. So if a dragon or a werebear reach terminal velocity then they impact something (y'know like the ground or a building, or just about anything) at that velocity they just go splat.
If physics doesn't exist in Rifts then why does every thing in Rifts have limit to it? E-clips only contain so much energy, armor and people can only take so much damage, psionics an mages can only use their powers as long as the "energy" is there.
Yes this is "game mechanics/ game balance" but it is also an application of physics and "common sense".
Addendum: On the subject of hard SF and Rifts, I link this article http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Hard_science_fiction, which gives an excellent definition of the concept. It includes series such as Babylon 5 and anime such as Ghost in the Shell, Appleseed, Intron Depot as well as Macross and Robotech. Since Rifts contains many aspects of all these shows I would definitely say that it falls in the overall range of Hard SF, even if parts of it are pure fantasy.
The game also explores (for the cultures in the game) the social and ethical questions of the weaponization of humans by converting them into Cyborgs or Juicers.

from WordIQ.com; Character development is sometimes secondary to explorations of astronomical or physical phenomena, but other times authors make the human condition forefront in the story. However, a common theme of hard SF has the resolution of the plot often hinging upon a technological point. Writers attempt to have their stories consistent with known science at the time of publication. Interestingly, some hard science fiction stories are set in an alternate universe where different physical laws apply; however, in such cases the author makes use of current physics to design a universe that is at least potentially realistic.

1) Rifts is an alternate universe based (in part) upon our own, where different physical laws apply, i.e.; Magic, Psionics, creatures and beings of myth and legend.
2) Many of the technological items are designed following the concepts of current physics, i.e.; Glitterboys, Power armor units and Robots, physical burn out of Juicers after 5 +yrs resulting in death, etc.
3) Potential resolution hinging upon a technological point; namely the use of technology to save mankind vs acceptance of magic.

[glitterboy2098]

Keir451, i think your mistaken there. Terminal velocity is merely the velocity (speed) at which the drag of it passing through the air matches the accelleration rate of gravity, causing it to stop accellerating as it falls. it varies based on surface area and air density.

for humans, terminal velocity is about 110-125mph, depending on altitude and posture. at those speeds, a person is likely to shatter most of their bones and die from systemic shock on impact, but it is possible to survive it if your lucky.

frankly, the main problem i have with palladium's falling damage is that it doesn't factor in terminal velocity, and that for some reason it gets a 100x boost if the item falling is MDC. which is stupid, since the kinetic force calculations involved are fairly simple, and while they certainly could get in the hundreds of SD range, it shouldn't matter is the 100kg object that's falling is a regular SDC human or a MDC sea titan.

personally i ignore the "MDC falling damage" part, and just assume that any mdc creature will have to make a save vs. coma on impact.

[keir451]

Keir451, i think your mistaken there. Terminal velocity is merely the velocity (speed) at which the drag of it passing through the air matches the accelleration rate of gravity, causing it to stop accellerating as it falls. it varies based on surface area and air density.

for humans, terminal velocity is about 110-125mph, depending on altitude and posture. at those speeds, a person is likely to shatter most of their bones and die from systemic shock on impact, but it is possible to survive it if your lucky.

frankly, the main problem i have with palladium's falling damage is that it doesn't factor in terminal velocity, and that for some reason it gets a 100x boost if the item falling is MDC. which is stupid, since the kinetic force calculations involved are fairly simple, and while they certainly could get in the hundreds of SD range, it shouldn't matter is the 100kg object that's falling is a regular SDC human or a MDC sea titan.

personally i ignore the "MDC falling damage" part, and just assume that any mdc creature will have to make a save vs. coma on impact.

Perhaps, but we are essentially saying the same thing. Namely that depending upon speed of the object vs drag when falling from a given height it will either survive(be intact), be damaged (lightly or severely) or possibly killed (if a living being) upon impact (if it impacts at all).

[Nightmask]

Keir451, i think your mistaken there. Terminal velocity is merely the velocity (speed) at which the drag of it passing through the air matches the accelleration rate of gravity, causing it to stop accellerating as it falls. it varies based on surface area and air density.

for humans, terminal velocity is about 110-125mph, depending on altitude and posture. at those speeds, a person is likely to shatter most of their bones and die from systemic shock on impact, but it is possible to survive it if your lucky.

frankly, the main problem i have with palladium's falling damage is that it doesn't factor in terminal velocity, and that for some reason it gets a 100x boost if the item falling is MDC. which is stupid, since the kinetic force calculations involved are fairly simple, and while they certainly could get in the hundreds of SD range, it shouldn't matter is the 100kg object that's falling is a regular SDC human or a MDC sea titan.

personally i ignore the "MDC falling damage" part, and just assume that any mdc creature will have to make a save vs. coma on impact.

Perhaps, but we are essentially saying the same thing. Namely that depending upon speed of the object vs drag when falling from a given height it will either survive(be intact), be damaged (lightly or severely) or possibly killed (if a living being) upon impact (if it impacts at all).

Except like in the dragon example you're over-emphasizing the real world physics and ignoring the physical durability and recoverability of the falling object treating it as if all the physics that make it up are less important when they aren't. I can't even see how falling damage can get into the MDC range other than equivalently due to large amounts of SDC damage inflicted. You're playing a game with vampires, godlings, and dragons in it and guys who can work magicks that can cause anti-matter to be brought forth as a weapon so real world physics REALLY don't have that kind of hold on things you want them to. Hmmmm, which apparently makes this disagreement more suited to the 'Suspension of Disbelief' thread, since you insist that reality has more say than it really does.

[keir451]

Keir451, i think your mistaken there. Terminal velocity is merely the velocity (speed) at which the drag of it passing through the air matches the accelleration rate of gravity, causing it to stop accellerating as it falls. it varies based on surface area and air density.

for humans, terminal velocity is about 110-125mph, depending on altitude and posture. at those speeds, a person is likely to shatter most of their bones and die from systemic shock on impact, but it is possible to survive it if your lucky.

frankly, the main problem i have with palladium's falling damage is that it doesn't factor in terminal velocity, and that for some reason it gets a 100x boost if the item falling is MDC. which is stupid, since the kinetic force calculations involved are fairly simple, and while they certainly could get in the hundreds of SD range, it shouldn't matter is the 100kg object that's falling is a regular SDC human or a MDC sea titan.

personally i ignore the "MDC falling damage" part, and just assume that any mdc creature will have to make a save vs. coma on impact.

Perhaps, but we are essentially saying the same thing. Namely that depending upon speed of the object vs drag when falling from a given height it will either survive(be intact), be damaged (lightly or severely) or possibly killed (if a living being) upon impact (if it impacts at all).

Except like in the dragon example you're over-emphasizing the real world physics and ignoring the physical durability and recoverability of the falling object treating it as if all the physics that make it up are less important when they aren't. I can't even see how falling damage can get into the MDC range other than equivalently due to large amounts of SDC damage inflicted. You're playing a game with vampires, godlings, and dragons in it and guys who can work magicks that can cause anti-matter to be brought forth as a weapon so real world physics REALLY don't have that kind of hold on things you want them to. Hmmmm, which apparently makes this disagreement more suited to the 'Suspension of Disbelief' thread, since you insist that reality has more say than it really does.

You're absolutley right Nightmask! Good call on transferring this to the appropite thread.

[azazel1024]

Well, something dragon sized might just take the equivelent of megadamage. The larger the creatures the higher the terminal velocity. Mass increases with the cube of the size, surface area only increases with the square. Terminal velocity is a square function, so in the end you get a square root relationship with mass and terminal velocity all else being equal.

What that means is that a 5ft man might have a terminal velocity of 120mph, but a 10ft tall giant (in exact proportion ratio) would have a terminal velocity of 170mph. So you have mass that is 8x higher and a velocity that is the square root of 2 higher...you have a final kinetic energy that is 16 times higher than a 5ft man in the impact.

You can see how quickly a dragon can get up in to the kinetic energy range where you have to assume some kind of MD occuring.

Mice can survive enourmous falls uninjured. Cats can with minor injuries. Dogs will get badly hurt or die. Humans will die. Elephants will SPLATTER.

[dark brandon]

so, in game terms, how would you simplify the "terminal velocity" thing so that it doesn't hinder the game, is quick to use and is understandable by a 13 year old?

[The Galactus Kid]

You fell.

[Carl Gleba]

so, in game terms, how would you simplify the "terminal velocity" thing so that it doesn't hinder the game, is quick to use and is understandable by a 13 year old?

For mega-damage creatures we always change the S.D.C. damage to M.D.C. 1D6 per 10 feet can add up. I don't care how tough you are. No matter how tough something is, it is going to take some kind of damage from a fall.