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Not sure if this was asked already, I'm sue it has been but I cant find the answer.

When character dual class, and the new OCC gives then another Hand to hand how does this work? would player now have said hand to hand at first level experience? or would it just replace the old hand to hand?

lets say player is 5th level with hand to hand basic, and now starts new class with hand to hand Expert, how would this work?
I cant see player having to use a first lvl hand to hand expert since he has 5th lvl Basic.

Until the new one surpasses the old one in bonuses use the old higher bonuses. After you have better bonuses from the new one use those.

Thinyser's explanation was a bit thin.

If they have the same h2h, then the h2h bonuses don't change till the class they changed to surpasses the level of the old class.

(as per rifts)If the new class has a different, greater, h2h, then they discard the old h2h and use the new h2h exclusively even though the bonuses might be less then the old h2h.
(as per ninja and superspies) If the h2h (MAF) is different from the old class' h2h, both h2h's are recorded separately and each can be used. The old h2h is frozen along with the skills of the old class. Each melee round you have to choose which h2h you are using that round.

Where in Rifts does it say that you have to use the new H2H exclusively (if it higher even though bonuses might be less)?

It doesn't, she's house ruling it. Personally I'd just use the two different HTH the way they do in N&SS in that you must choose which HTH to use in a given round and use the bonuses exclusively from that HTH during that specific round. The rules do state somewhere that PCs cannot have more than one HTH but I don't think that they took into account the Dual Classing option and N&SS characters have a different flavor, so basically just houserule it.

If you just happen to pick up a second HTH because you are dual-classing, I'd say continue to use the old HTH until the new HTH surpasses the old one.

Think of it this way - you used to fight a certain way; you used your standard punches and kicks, nothing fancy. Well now you've got an expert HTH instructor who gives you some tips on more advanced techniques. It's going to take you a while to actually put these new techniques into practice, so when it comes to a real combat situation you're going to fall back to what you're comfortable with. Once you become more comfortable with your new training (ie. your level advances far enough that the bonuses are better than your old HTH) you can actually start using it in combat.

Now if you specifically went out and learned a new HTH, I'd probably treat that differently. But that's a different topic all together...

I think I was thinking of the way that when a char has a single class and get a new 'higher' h2h, the new h2h replaces the old one totally.

She is right about the rule that a char, in rifts, can only have one h2h. But that rule does not take in account for the changing class rules.

A house rule might be more like, "If you use the h2h of your old class, you don't get any exp for the fight."

"He" eh? I always thought that with your board name that you were a she, my mistake.

The rules for Duel-Classing are found on palladium's Cutting room floor here: http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/cutt ... alocc.html



As far as which hand to hand to use, according to the Ninja's and Superspys rule, if a player has multiple hand to hand styles, then he must declare which one he is using at the start of the melee round, but under no circumstances do they merge unless both specifically say they can mix (And there is only one pair that does).

The Published Rules for changing class are found in the high seas book.

The above is Just posted (munchkin) ones.

High Seas is PFRPG and though it could apply to Rifts it doesn't state anything about the h2h.

The published changing class rules apply across the board like the megaversal spell creation and modification rules apply across the board, because they are the only ones Published.

Actually, the cutting room floor is offical and are palladiums errata. they supersceed printed material, the Adventures on the High Seas rules are obsoleted by this.

If they wanted to make the change they should of published them. Posted items are fungible so are thereby not available to be canon.

Actually, what the company says is canon, is canon. I'm not sure why you think your personal preferences for format effect what the publishing company considers canon.

do you want all updates to be carved into stone tablets? is that non-fungible enough for you? not that being free as anything whatsoever to do with being offical, anyway.

Have to agree with Nekira on this one which i seldom do...

The material on the cutting room floor is official Palladium errata despite its digital format and is therefore supersedes even printed canon.

That said its errata for PFRPG2 and (though i cannot see why) it could be handled entirely differently in Rifts. IMO the errata is the best cannon reference we have but neither mentions anything about h2h. If I had to rule on it H2H would be a "skill" and would be frozen but usable at its frozen level until surpassed by the new OCC's h2h.

It seems rather obvious that this is how it would be handled. You use what you know until what you are learning is better then you use that now that its better. This also explains why its harder to advance in the new OCC since you keep falling back to old habits that used to serve you well as a longbowman now have been delaying your advancement as a samurai...

not "stone", "in print"

And how is being in print in any way relevent to it being offical?

That is it published, and not just posted.

The last word in the unabridged webster's dictionary is zzz...

Again...how is that relevant?

Not everyone has a computer is one of the things that make the published rules more canon than any posted stuff.
NS this is just one more thing we will have to disagree on.

Except there really isn't room to agree to disagree on. Either the publisher says it's canon or not. You can refuse to accept it, but that's not really the same thing as agreeing to disagree.

Material is official if Palladium says its official, despite its "not printed on paper" status, PERIOD.

You cannot argue with this because it's Palladium's rule set and they tell us what is official... not us telling them.

Palladium could send out a press release email with new official rules if they felt like it and (though it would be retarded for them to do so) it would non the less be official if they said it was.

Like I said, we will have to agree to disagree.

Sub-text of "we will have to agree to disagree": let's stop beating at each other when we know each other's positions will not change.

lol sure but I'm gonna read that subtext as you saying your wrong but cannot admit it. OK?

Well, if you want to do the virtual equlivent of jamming your fingers in your ears and screaming "La-La I can't hear you", I suppose I can't stop you.

Though just out of curiosity, why do you say the rules in the errata are broken compared to the adventures on the high seas? I've read them both and from what I recall they're almost identical.

I'm not, as you put it, screaming "La-La I can't hear you". I was just saying that you are not going to change me in this 'so might as well stop trying'. The posted dual occ stuff if just too 'dumbed down for rifts' for a SDC sort of gamer that I am.

I just reread the posted dual occ stuff just to make sure they hadn't changed it. And it has not changed from what I read before.

The posted dual class stuff is like a primer compared to the published changing class rules. While they might be good for 'introducing' the idea of changing classes, it does not go into detail like the published changing class rules.

Well i cannot say when it was first put up on the interwebz but the copyright at the bottom of the cutting room floor says 2010 so it would seem that they have at least updated that this year.

Or PB just updates their signature that gets c&p'ed at the bottom of all their pages automatically. Which is the most likely way things get done.

That does seem pretty likely knowing how Palladium often C&P's with their books too

Still tho its the most recent copyright.

Feel free to ignore everything listed in the online errata for your games... but I still believe its canon material.

If it wasn't canon then most likely, since it is a "here today gone tomorrow" medium, Palladium wouldn't leave it there.

I'm pretty sure the ONLY thing PB checks when they proof is legal copyrights and trademark notations. You can probably be sure those are all correct.

The rules in High Seas does go into more depth about Switching Classes.
The Errata is just a Quick and Dirty Dual/Switching class blurb to keep people from needing High Seas just for One Rule.

BOTH are OFFICAL.
Use whichever one suits you and your Group Best.
Its the Golden Rule of RPGs that matters most.
The Rules are a Guideline.

When Posting about RULES, always remember to mention the Source. If people wish to look it up and check. Good. If people rather use the Online Errata. Good for them.
As for Myself. I rather use what is actually Physical Printed in a Book. For me, if PB wants the Online Errata to be Offical (for my group) they will Print it in a Book. Then again I will ignore even those rules if they are Dumb (looking at you GIJoe rules). I still use the RMB over the new RUE for many reasons.

Everyone knows the golden rule, yes, that's why mentioning the golden rule is pointless. Sometimes, the GM /wants/ to use whats in the book. In which case, mentioning the golden rule isn't helpful.

I don't think anyone's said this yet, so I'd like to point out that the online errata looks like the same rules listed in the first edition book. Do with that as you will.

One question I have is: why is it neccessary to switch occ's as soon as you level as opposed to in the middle of a level? Does this imply that you don't need an instructor? Are you supposed to line up a teacher then tell him, "sorry I can't learn anything yet, I still need 18,000 more experience!" lol?

As for h2h, the rule seems much clearer in first edition since each occ has their own fighting stlye (h2h). but 2nd edition has most of the occ's able to use the exact same fighting style... that being the case, (and this is only my interpretation) if the exact same h2h fighting style is selected I'd read that to mean it is continually practiced just like any other formerly known skill (frozen till exceeded in lvl expertise), if not then the new occ's fighting style (h2h) is the one to use starting from lvl 1. If you don't use the new fighting style and your a man of arms occ, I'd say your effectively not practicing your new occ. now if you were a man of arms and switched to an occ with no h2h combat elective, I'd say you could continue to use the previous h2h frozen at the level it was when you switched.

Edit: this is coming from a purely PF perspective.