Natural Combat Ability --- oh, that power again

[Incriptus]

Yeah Yeah Yeah I know it comes up every few months, I guess because the power is an awesome idea but poorly worded / executed (a palladium specialty )

I've decided that when it says "gets the following combat abilities and bonuses regardless of the exact type of style of combat he is using" it doesn't mean --- instead of the bonuses from that style ---- but it means ---- in addition to the bonuses of that style. I come to this conclusion because

A) This particular Major power at level 1 is weaker than just having a guy who knows martial arts, boxing, & Wrestling

B) It's very very rare for any power to give bonuses that are "instead of" and not "in addition too"

C) Because there is always a C.

So anyways, the character would get the bonuses listed for NCA & Those from the style he was copying (Maybe not the two attacks at first level still questioning that one*****) at the level of the character with the power. So a 7th level character with NCA ability who was fighting your average joe would have bonuses as if he was a 7th level HTH Expert & 7th level NCA. If he was facing a Sumo he would get the bonuses as if he were a 7th level Sumo & 7 level NCA.

While this at first glance might seem complicated *oh man i'll have to recalculate my bonuses every fight* it really isn't. Remember it's based on your level not the opponents, and the "main" HU only has 5 different HTH combat types, only 3 of which you need to concern yourself with.

None = Expert
Basic = Expert
Expert = Expert
Martial Arts = Martial Arts
Assassin = Assassin

In most HU games (I assume) N&SS combat forms are pretty rare, and are unlikely to be much of a hassel. And if a GM should decide to introduce such a character all you really need to do is calculate the difference between Level X HTH Expert and Level X Ninjistu.

Sure it's a little more complicated than your average power but it's not too different than any of the other borrow/steal/absorb powers out there that you need to recalculate stats for.


*****
About my own questioning of allowing that first two extra attacks at level one, the one strong point about NCA is as you leveled up you got globbs of attacks per melee. It is attractive since it would make you *GASP* a better than average fighter at level one, but at level 15 . . . well what can you really do with 17 attacks per melee that you couldn't get done with 15.

Expert + Boxing = 5 attacks to 8 attacks
NCA as a replacement = 5 attacks to 12 attacks
NCA as an addition = 7 attacks to 17 attacks
NCA as an addition (without level 1) = 5 attacks to 15 attacks

level 01 - 05,05,07,05
level 02 - 05,06,08,06
level 03 - 05,06,08,06
level 04 - 06,07,10,08
level 05 - 06,07,10,08
level 06 - 06,08,11,09
level 07 - 06,08,11,09
level 08 - 06,09,12,10
level 09 - 07,09,13,11
level 10 - 07,10,14,12
level 11 - 07,10,14,12
level 12 - 07,10,14,12
level 13 - 07,11,15,13
level 14 - 08,11,16,14
level 15 - 08,12,17,15

Yeah I think option 4 is probably the most reasonable, so at lvl 1 the power is the equivelent of a pretty weak minor, at lvl 2 it's about equal to a moderately useful minor, and at level 4 its still fairly weak for a major, but by level 6 it's starting to make a dent as a legitment major.
*****


Any thoughts?

[Jesterzzn]

The way I read this is that the player gets whatever combat ability that he is fighting against, but at his own level, and with the added bonuses listed.

So at level 1 and fighting against a NPC with HTH: Martial Arts:

7 Attacks (2 from MA 2 for living 3 from Bonus)
+3 Int
+4 Roll
+4 Pull
ect...

The NCA character then has the added advantage of things like Auto-Dodge and the fact that his normal HtH attacks do more than normal damage and in some cases auto-critical.

As for the power being sub-major, well don't forget that the character gets ALL WP (well kinda). That in and of itself is a pretty major ability.

[Stone Gargoyle]

I always interpreted it to mean the fighting moves vary, not the bonuses or attacks. More than 8 attacks per melee round is really impractical and very munchkin.

[dragon_blaze_99]

NCA is explained in Skraypers under the character Fight stick pretty well

[Agent_gir]

I dislike how this power is presented, no offence to the creator but it was poorly thought out, the one one many examples I will use is the unreasonable rate of fire the power has vs wp archary, 2 vs 6 at level one!!!! and 7 vs 13!!!!!!!! at level 15. In conclusion this power needs some major clean up or complete ommition from future printings.

[Incriptus]

About what I figured . . . and to be honest I guess I'm the first person to say "not all powers need to be balanced against each other" . . . It's just that i'm currently making a character and natural combat ability is the (excuse the pun) natural power to really complement the idea. The problem is that the munchkin in me can't justify it as a major power selection if those bonuses are replacements (And to be honest I'm not sure they are meant to be replacement bonuses, since there are very few powers that say "use this instead")

Take NCA and compare it to a guy with HTH Expert, Boxing & Extraordinary PP. The single biggest selling point of NCA is the absurd rate of HTH attack increases, and quite frankly against the combination above he would have to wait till 6th level before he got 1 additional attack and would still have inferior combat bonuses. And that's in comparison to a minor power. If I flip a few pages down to sonic speed NCA will never ever compare to the combat bonuses, heck sonic speed w/ combat skills gets up to 13 attacks compared to NCA's 12 (not to mention the fact that sonic speed as non-combat applications as well). I know, I know not all powers are born equal, it's like trying to compare Alter Physical Structure good with APS: Better.

Heck and it's not as if the character I'm building isn't tough enough already, It's just hard to justify NCA although thematically it's exactly what I want

[Iczer]

In play, I've had 2 players with NCA.

Thier responses are mixed, but good, using pretty much wayne's idea.

In regular mook on hero fights, the character basically cleaned up with superior attacks. Strike and parry bonuses in both cases came from better than average PP and using weapons (+2 to strike and parry on some simple clubs or a bo staff works ok)

Against superfoes it proved a little problematic. the extra attacks are nice but squaring off against a supervillain leaves one wanting for some sort of retaliatory ability. (Trying to bo staff a floating gravity controlling meglomaniac is problematic under 50 G's)

The one moment wher it shined was when the group faced off against a pair of ancient masters ( ) though there was some isse with how much of the character class was considered 'training' and to what extent it could be copied. (arguments whether the 'chi blast' could be copied are very heated)

Overall, like many of Palladium's powers, it has its moments.

Batts

[znbrtn]

I always interpreted it to mean the fighting moves vary, not the bonuses or attacks. More than 8 attacks per melee round is really impractical and very munchkin.

you would despise every character that comes out of my head... i've had one with 12 at level one. in the unlikely event that he was to make it to 15th level, he would have had something like 32 attacks per round.

[Incriptus]

Still the problem is that Natural Combat Ability is a Major power, and therefor should have a major effect. Secondly It's a combat power, a combat power with zero non-combat applications. ***Small mental detour NCA also loses out on the +4 to PS that Boxing & Wrestling could provide ***. So it would be unfair to compare it to a solely utilitarian power like holographic memory projection.

Too be fair I am over looking the "all weapon proficiency" aspect of the power, and it does front load the combat manuvers (although it once again skips a few NCA doesn't get critical strike like a lvl 6 martial artist would). And it does get an autododge (although at no bonus).

Anyways I guess it's just greed, and EX PP seems like a superior 'combat ability' than natural combat ability (heck i'll probably just take both)

[Incriptus]

I don't know too many people who are taking Boxing and Ex PP without considering the combat applications... and to be quite frank, they serve little to no purpose outside of it as well.

My last character who took Ex PP did so because he was an acrobat

I'm trying to figure out what part of it isn't a "major effect." For the cost of a major, you get EVERY WP and a natural HtH skill superior to everything (save the AMA, which you can still copy and match fists with). You're left with a plethora of skill slots that everyone else fills up with these things, which you can use to enhance said combat abilities, or your "utilitarian" aptitude.

Again, this isn't meant to make the character unbeatable. That seems to be the sticking point for a lot of people. It's not "Combat Invulnerability" or some other crazy stunt, it's just a natural ability to fight better than (or at least as well as) most of the population.

Well invunerbility is a few pages down, And i'd hate to be the guy who with NCA who tried to fight the guy with that power. . . Actually I think this is the main contention. For a major power I don't want to be better than most of the population, with a major power I want to be the best. If I have a major power that's defined as 'being able to fight good', I want to be better than a martial artist.

It's like if I were trying to make a character who was stronger than most of the population (like Slab viewtopic.php?t=78879&highlight=slab) I would design him with a minor power of Extraordinary physical strength. But if I were choosing a major power, I think i'd want something more along Super Natural Strength.

What I'm trying to say is that a Major power should be Major, it should be something that can not be matched by even extraordinarily skilled 'normal' folks. And this Major power requires about 6 levels before it exceeds a normal skilled character by a signifigant margin. Imagine if Supernatural strength required you be level 6 before it gave better bonuses than EX PS.

Quite frankly, you're not looking at the big picture of it. You're considering powers+skills for Bob, but only this one power for Al. As I tried to point out, Al has the minimum equivalent of a Physical program (HtH Expert, Boxing, Wrestling), and however many WP programs it takes to get all of them. He's freed himself from a lot of selections that many characters spend time/skill slots on.

And I just did it again, you are correct. But I think of skill selections as being much easier to come by than power selections. By the way I am enjoying reading the other opinions on this, I hope i'm not coming off as argumentative.

[panzerfaust]

Heres MY version of Natural Combat Ability:

Natural Combat Ability (Major Super Ability):

This power grants inherent knowledge of combat styles and weapons use. The Character need not have ever taken any courses in fighting, hand to hand combat or the use of weapons, he will simply know how to do these things. A character with this power will not be able to learn a hand to hand combat skill or any weapon proficiency or the sniper skill, though he may select physical skills that augment his hand to hand abililities, like boxing wrestling etc, etc.

1. Provides The Following Bonuses:

+3 Attacks/Actions Per Melee.

+3 to Save vs Horror Factor

+3 to Save vs Possession and Mind Control

+3 to Strike.

+4 to Parry.

+6 to Dodge (Normal type of dodge).

Auto Dodge (no bonus).

+3 to pull Punch.

Automatic Parry.

Back Flip: 72% +2% per level.

Exceptional Balance: 70% +2% per level.

W.P. Paired Ancient Weapons: ALL.

W.P. Paired Fire Arms: Revolvers, Pistols, and Sub-Machineguns.

Can Pick up and use any type of ANCIENT melee weapon (Sword, Spear, Bow and Arrow, Club, Axe Etc, Etc.), as well as any type of MODERN Firearms and Energy Weapons, as well as weapon systems built into a vehicle, and instictively knows how to use them (how to shoot, reload, clean, etc.)! However, all such weapon are used with only a +2 to strike/shoot and parry. Rate of Fire, when applicable like Bow and Arrow is equal to the character's number of melee attacks per round, plus one.

Punch: 1D6+2 damage.

Backhand strike: 1D6 damage.

Power Punch: 2D6 damage +2 per level.

Kick (ordinary): 2D4 damage.

Karate-Kick: 2D6+2 damage.

Jump Kick: 3D8 Damage, cout as two attacks, automatic critical strike.

Head Butt: 1D6 damage.

Judo-Style Throw/Flip: Victim takes 2D4 damage and loses initiative and one melee attack.

Knockout/Stun on a natural roll of 19-20.

2. The following Bonuses are recieved as the character grows in experiance.

2 +3 to Roll with Impact

3 +2 to Strike, +3 to Parry and Dodge

4 +4 to Damage, Body Block/Tackle: 1D6 damage, 65% chance of knocikg opponant down

5 One additional attack per melee

6 + 3 to Parry and Dodge, Entangle

7 +2 to Automatic Dodge

8 One additional attack per melee

9 Leap Attack (Critical Strike), +2 to Entangle

10 Critical Strike on a roll of 18-20

11 +4 to Damage

12 +2 to Parry and Dodge

13 Knockout/Stun on a roll of 17-20

14 One additional attack per melee

15 Death Blow on a Natural 20

[Agent_gir]

Heres MY version of Natural Combat Ability:

Natural Combat Ability (Major Super Ability):

This power grants inherent knowledge of combat styles and weapons use. The Character need not have ever taken any courses in fighting, hand to hand combat or the use of weapons, he will simply know how to do these things. A character with this power will not be able to learn a hand to hand combat skill or any weapon proficiency or the sniper skill, though he may select physical skills that augment his hand to hand abililities, like boxing wrestling etc, etc.

1. Provides The Following Bonuses:

+3 Attacks/Actions Per Melee.

+3 to Save vs Horror Factor

+3 to Save vs Possession and Mind Control

+3 to Strike.

+4 to Parry.

+6 to Dodge (Normal type of dodge).

Auto Dodge (no bonus).

+3 to pull Punch.

Automatic Parry.

Back Flip: 72% +2% per level.

Exceptional Balance: 70% +2% per level.

W.P. Paired Ancient Weapons: ALL.

W.P. Paired Fire Arms: Revolvers, Pistols, and Sub-Machineguns.

Can Pick up and use any type of ANCIENT melee weapon (Sword, Spear, Bow and Arrow, Club, Axe Etc, Etc.), as well as any type of MODERN Firearms and Energy Weapons, as well as weapon systems built into a vehicle, and instictively knows how to use them (how to shoot, reload, clean, etc.)! However, all such weapon are used with only a +2 to strike/shoot and parry. Rate of Fire, when applicable like Bow and Arrow is equal to the character's number of melee attacks per round, plus one.

Punch: 1D6+2 damage.

Backhand strike: 1D6 damage.

Power Punch: 2D6 damage +2 per level.

Kick (ordinary): 2D4 damage.

Karate-Kick: 2D6+2 damage.

Jump Kick: 3D8 Damage, cout as two attacks, automatic critical strike.

Head Butt: 1D6 damage.

Judo-Style Throw/Flip: Victim takes 2D4 damage and loses initiative and one melee attack.

Knockout/Stun on a natural roll of 19-20.

2. The following Bonuses are recieved as the character grows in experiance.

2 +3 to Roll with Impact

3 +2 to Strike, +3 to Parry and Dodge

4 +4 to Damage, Body Block/Tackle: 1D6 damage, 65% chance of knocikg opponant down

5 One additional attack per melee

6 + 3 to Parry and Dodge, Entangle

7 +2 to Automatic Dodge

8 One additional attack per melee

9 Leap Attack (Critical Strike), +2 to Entangle

10 Critical Strike on a roll of 18-20

11 +4 to Damage

12 +2 to Parry and Dodge

13 Knockout/Stun on a roll of 16-20

14 One additional attack per melee

15 Death Blow on a Natural 20

rate of fire for bows is still unreasonable imo, it's higher then the ancient weapons MASTER. just saying

[panzerfaust]

rate of fire for bows is still unreasonable imo, it's higher then the ancient weapons MASTER. just saying

Well I made this up before they came up with the Ancient Weapons Master. As KS has said Balance does not mean equal, pus he don't get the other stuff the Ancient Weapons master gets also so it balances out (either way bows don't turn out any much more powerful than guns in eithers hands). And this Is a major Super Ability for a REASON like Invulnerabilitiy or Weapon Melding or Multiple Lives, etc, etc. It's a super ability for cripes sake! It's supposed to be powerful.

[Stone Gargoyle]

rate of fire for bows is still unreasonable imo, it's higher then the ancient weapons MASTER. just saying

Well I made this up before they came up with the Ancient Weapons Master. As KS has said Balance does not mean equal, pus he don't get the other stuff the Ancient Weapons master gets also so it balances out (either way bows don't turn out any much more powerful than guns in eithers hands). And this Is a major Super Ability for a REASON like Invulnerabilitiy or Weapon Melding or Multiple Lives, etc, etc. It's a super ability for cripes sake! It's supposed to be powerful.

I copied the power over to the new powers thread and want to see what other opinions on it are, but my first impression is that the power level is too high.

[panzerfaust]

rate of fire for bows is still unreasonable imo, it's higher then the ancient weapons MASTER. just saying

Well I made this up before they came up with the Ancient Weapons Master. As KS has said Balance does not mean equal, pus he don't get the other stuff the Ancient Weapons master gets also so it balances out (either way bows don't turn out any much more powerful than guns in eithers hands). And this Is a major Super Ability for a REASON like Invulnerabilitiy or Weapon Melding or Multiple Lives, etc, etc. It's a super ability for cripes sake! It's supposed to be powerful.

I copied the power over to the new powers thread and want to see what other opinions on it are, but my first impression is that the power level is too high.

Well it's no more powerful than Ivulnerability, Imortality or Multiple Lives, IMO, but I digress. I mainly came up with this for easier book keeping. *shrugs* But then Again I often only run (the coulpe times I'v done so) PC's with Only TWO Minor or ONE Major Super Ability (and this was Before they came out with the Minor Hero Option in Powers Unlimited 2).

[Stone Gargoyle]

It does not help your case that you cite the three most ridiculously powerful superabilities in the books.

[panzerfaust]

It does not help your case that you cite the three most ridiculously powerful superabilities in the books.

Well it's actually a lot less powerful than those (and yes a character with this version I came up with CAN be beat (it's not like I haven't play tested it you know).