Dropping Dragons...

[Shadyslug]

...So...a while back, I was gaming with a group that decided that a dropping Dragon could do hundreds of MD worth of damage...

They based it on the falling damage in RMB.

My take on the matter, was that the dragon would take at least half of the damage inflicted...but overall, I thought it was pure Bull Honkus...

Thoughts?

[Shadyslug]

So a dropping dragon does several hundred points of MD?

[Nekira Sudacne]

So a dropping dragon does several hundred points of MD?

how much do you think a 30 ton projectile traveling at 70 MPH would do to you?

[Shadyslug]

That kind of damage would be based upon the area of contact. Impact per square foot would be a better determination...

And also...what is the object being dropped on? From how high? And it's not the speed of the object, but the acceleration...

[Vrykolas2k]

So a dropping dragon does several hundred points of MD?

how much do you think a 30 ton projectile traveling at 70 MPH would do to you?

But it would be travelling at a faster speed. A hawk, which is lighter, hits prey at over 70 mph.
I would think that a diving dragon's claws would do normal damage x10, but that would be its only attack that round.

[Library Ogre]

So a dropping dragon does several hundred points of MD?

how much do you think a 30 ton projectile traveling at 70 MPH would do to you?

A dragon in a dive is going to be going more than 70mph.

[Killer Cyborg]

Dragons are MDC creatures.
Falls generally don't hurt them significantly.

My best estimate is that MDC creatures take about 1 M.D. per 100 foot that they fall.

The only known passage describing MDC creatures and falling damage is in Xiticix Invasion, p. 16.
It rules that MDC creatures that fall off of one of the Xiticix bridges takes 1 MD per every three stories (8-14', usually 10') that they fall.
Of course, this isn't a normal fall; it does more damage, presumably because of the spiky resin that covers the ground at the base of the towers.
The damage for a normal SDC character falling is 1d6 MD per 10', but if a normal SDC being falls off of one of these bridges, they take 3d6 SDC damage per story that they fall.
Which is 3x the normal amount of damage.
Which indicates that the 1 MD/3 story rule for MD beings is likely to be 3x their normal falling damage.
Which means that that distance should triple if you're just falling onto normal ground, to a ratio of 1 MD/9 story.
Which easily rounds off to 100, since a story is likely to be about 10'-12' high.

[Shadyslug]

What's the maximum speed at which an object can fall?

[Nekira Sudacne]

What's the maximum speed at which an object can fall?

depends entirely on the areodynamics of hte being in question. a human is around 120 MPH or so, wheras a newspaper only has 2 or 3 MPH maximun fall speed

[Killer Cyborg]

What's the maximum speed at which an object can fall?

That depends on how you define "fall" and what the object is.

[Thinyser]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_velocity

For example, the terminal velocity of a skydiver in a normal free-fall position with a closed parachute is about 195 km/h (120 mph or 54 m/s). This velocity is the asymptotic limiting value of the acceleration process, since the effective forces on the body more and more closely balance each other as it is approached. In this example, a speed of 50% of terminal velocity is reached after only about 3 seconds, while it takes 8 seconds to reach 90%, 15 seconds to reach 99% and so on.

Higher speeds can be attained if the skydiver pulls in his limbs (see also freeflying). In this case, the terminal velocity increases to about 320 km/h (200 mph or 89 m/s), which is also the maximum speed of the Peregrine Falcon diving down on its prey.

A dragon pulling its limbs and wings in and doing a full on dive could probably hit about 200-250 Mph at normal atmospheric pressures... At extreamly high altitudes 100,000 feet (very thin air) the friction would be greatly reduced and the dragon could probably hit 700 Mph or more but it would start to slow down as it falls because the air becomes thicker and thicker providing more resistance.

[Warwolf]

...So...a while back, I was gaming with a group that decided that a dropping Dragon could do hundreds of MD worth of damage...

They based it on the falling damage in RMB.

My take on the matter, was that the dragon would take at least half of the damage inflicted...but overall, I thought it was pure Bull Honkus...

Thoughts?

And suddenly my mind wanders to the Monty Python Roles of Combat regarding the damage of a falling cow.

[The Galactus Kid]

If the Dragon is just being dropped, (neglecting wind resistence) it would reach terminal velocity just the sme as though it was diving. It is only when you take resistence into account that it matters. NOW, a bowling ball and a golf ball dropped from the same height will hit the ground at the same time (sorry guys...its physics) so using the GMG falling damage rules you can actually calculate how much anything will take from a fall by seeing the distance it takes to reach this terminal velocity.

I don't take credit for any of this. my best friend is a mechanical engineer and he figured it all out. Our gaming group has been using the terminal velocity/falling damage rules for about 4 years. I'll post the actual damage later today.

[Thinyser]

If the Dragon is just being dropped, (neglecting wind resistence) it would reach terminal velocity just the sme as though it was diving. It is only when you take resistence into account that it matters. NOW, a bowling ball and a golf ball dropped from the same height will hit the ground at the same time (sorry guys...its physics) so using the GMG falling damage rules you can actually calculate how much anything will take from a fall by seeing the distance it takes to reach this terminal velocity.

I don't take credit for any of this. my best friend is a mechanical engineer and he figured it all out. Our gaming group has been using the terminal velocity/falling damage rules for about 4 years. I'll post the actual damage later today.

Unless your engineer frined has calculated the drag of air on something the shape and mass of a dragon you'll just be posting meaningless numbers. Drag vs mass is what terminal velocity is all about.

In lay terms you drop a 3 foot diameter beachball that weighs 200 grams and a 1/2" lead ball that weighs 200 grams the lead ball will continue to accelerate MUCH longer than the beachball before it finally reaches (a rather high) TV, because the lead ball has much less drag (much smaller surface area) while the beachball has a huge surface area and reaches its (very low) TV early in its fall.

TV is when drag matches the acceration due to gravity, so to determine the TV for any given object you have to know its drag and its mass. Even though both the lead ball and the beachball in my example have the same mass the beachball has MUCH more drag than the lead ball and therefore has a much lower TV and reaches this much sooner than the lead ball.

In your golfball/bowling ball drop example the bowling ball, with its much greater mass, should have a higher TV than the golfball even though the golf ball would have slightly less drag (due to its smaller, and dimpled, surface area) and therefore if dropped from a hight at which they both reach their TV the bowling ball would strike the ground first.

[Thinyser]

NOW, a bowling ball and a golf ball dropped from the same height will hit the ground at the same time (sorry guys...its physics)

Lies. LIES! Galactus Kid and his tricksey science!

It is tricksey science... well not all that tricksey, but in this case science tricked Galactus Kid.

This is only true of the fall before the balls reach their (respective and different) terminal velocities.

[Thinyser]

an elephant weighing in the range of 7000lbs will fall roughly 1500ft per second at it's terminal velocity from 10000ft above sea level.

scale that up for the size and bulk of a dragon and you get a really fast object plumeting out of the sky.

i found a java calculator to figure out TV at NASA's website (i hope i put in the right numbers)

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/termv.html

Where did you get that tidbit?

AFAIK nobody has dropped an elephant from 10,000 feet so did you just use NASA's calculator or did you get the info somewhere else? and if you used the calculator what did you put in for the cross sectional surface area and drag coefficient?

[Thinyser]

That dragon would hit the ground and creat something like a 500 foot deep hole that to big aroound for me to guess even close with out saying to much or too little.

You have already guessed wrong

http://www.meteorcrater.com/eventsfun/cratercs/index.htm

(Meteor) crater was formed by the impact of an iron-nickel meteorite impacting into the high arid plains of the Colorado Plateau about 50,000 years ago. The body, estimated to have been about 50 meters in diameter and weighed several hundred thousand metric tons, was traveling on the order of 15 kilometers per second and impacted with a kinetic energy of some 30-40 megatons of TNT equivalent. The result of the collision was to form, in just a second or so, a large bowl-shaped crater 1.2 kilometers across and over 150 meters deep.

So unless the dragon weighs several hundred thousand metric tons and was traveling in the neighborhood of 15 km/second its not going to make a 500 foot deep crater (150 meters = 492 feet) upon impact. It simply wouldn't have the energy to do so.

[Thinyser]

an elephant weighing in the range of 7000lbs will fall roughly 1500ft per second at it's terminal velocity from 10000ft above sea level.

scale that up for the size and bulk of a dragon and you get a really fast object plumeting out of the sky.

i found a java calculator to figure out TV at NASA's website (i hope i put in the right numbers)

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/termv.html

Where did you get that tidbit?

AFAIK nobody has dropped an elephant from 10,000 feet so did you just use NASA's calculator or did you get the info somewhere else? and if you used the calculator what did you put in for the cross sectional surface area and drag coefficient?

i hope no one has dropped an elephant from 10000ft

i used the calculator and the only thing i changed was the weight in lbs and i can't remember what i put in for the cross section, 10ft?

like i said ... i hope i put the in the right numbers.

if i didn't, i guess someone who has a better understanding of math than i do will be able to corect me. but i'll bet that it is still really really fast.

Well a crossection of an elephant is WAY more than 10 square feet (more like 80-100... or more) and the drag coefficeint could be way off too (or it could be spot on) I have no idea how to go about calculating that without a wind tunnle.

if you change the 10 sq ft to 100 sq ft it and leave the altitude at 0.0 (sea level) it drops the TV to 290ft/sec, about the speed of a paintball.

Still a 7000 elephant traveling at 197 miles per hour is gonna do some major damage.

[Killer Cyborg]

Well a crossection of an elephant is WAY more than 10 square feet (more like 80-100... or more) and the drag coefficeint could be way off too (or it could be spot on) I have no idea how to go about calculating that without a wind tunnle.

if you change the 10 sq ft to 100 sq ft it and leave the altitude at 0.0 (sea level) it drops the TV to 290ft/sec, about the speed of a paintball.

Still a 7000 elephant traveling at 197 miles per hour is gonna do some major damage.

an elephant that has a cross section of 100ft!

wait a tick?

*light bulb goes on* right that's in square feet isn't it, 10ftx10ft. that makes sense now.

still 197 miles per hour is faster than i can drive my car. that's more than one football field every two seconds.

Heck, forget dropping it!
Let's make that 100' long elephant the team quarterback!!

[Thinyser]

Well a crossection of an elephant is WAY more than 10 square feet (more like 80-100... or more) and the drag coefficeint could be way off too (or it could be spot on) I have no idea how to go about calculating that without a wind tunnle.

if you change the 10 sq ft to 100 sq ft it and leave the altitude at 0.0 (sea level) it drops the TV to 290ft/sec, about the speed of a paintball.

Still a 7000 elephant traveling at 197 miles per hour is gonna do some major damage.

an elephant that has a cross section of 100ft!

wait a tick?

*light bulb goes on* right that's in square feet isn't it, 10ftx10ft. that makes sense now.

still 197 miles per hour is faster than i can drive my car. that's more than one football field every two seconds.

Heck, forget dropping it!
Let's make that 100' long elephant the team quarterback!!

Its not 100' long... think about it for a second.

[Killer Cyborg]

Heck, forget dropping it!
Let's make that 100' long elephant the team quarterback!!

Its not 100' long... think about it for a second.

I know.
Making a joke, was I.

[Shadyslug]

Dude...we're not talking about European Dragons...we're talking African Dragons...with coconuts...

[Warwolf]

Dude...we're not talking about European Dragons...we're talking African Dragons...with coconuts...

As I was saying... the Monty Python Rules of Combat!

[Giant2005]

Personally, if I were going to implement something along those lines I wouldn't bother factoring in resistance, momentum or anything fo the like. You make your game entirely science based and it isn't a game - it is homework, homework isn't fun.
I'd base the damage done off the Gravity Manipulation super power, I'd rule that for every 1000 pounds of weight it would inflict 4D6MD to your opponent.
The Damage the Dragon would take is probably a little mroe complicated, if the target is an SDC structure, it isn't dense enough to cause any damage to the dragon, if it were an MDC structure I'd make the Dragon take hald the damage it inflicted (I just picked this figure out of nowhere).
Also there should be quite a sizable penalty to strike depending on the target's size.

[Thinyser]

Personally, if I were going to implement something along those lines I wouldn't bother factoring in resistance, momentum or anything fo the like. You make your game entirely science based and it isn't a game - it is homework, homework isn't fun.
I'd base the damage done off the Gravity Manipulation super power, I'd rule that for every 1000 pounds of weight it would inflict 4D6MD to your opponent.
The Damage the Dragon would take is probably a little mroe complicated, if the target is an SDC structure, it isn't dense enough to cause any damage to the dragon, if it were an MDC structure I'd make the Dragon take hald the damage it inflicted (I just picked this figure out of nowhere).
Also there should be quite a sizable penalty to strike depending on the target's size.

i think that it is the idea of just picking figures out of nowhere that is the problem.

because PB forgot about this particular aspect of their game mechanics (i mean come on, crash damage should be important given the number of things that potentialy plummet out of the sky at a high rate of speed in rifts, SAMAS and Dragons being two of them).

the problem is how do you fill the gaping hole left by PB and still have a sense of versimilitude (unlike the GI Joe rule or weapon damage scaling) while still integrated with the rules that already exist.

basing the damage off of the gravity control super power is a good idea, but does the speed of whatever is plumetting out of the sky affect the damage inflicted. also if an MDC being moving at high speeds suddenly crashes into an immovable object (even if its SDC it can still be unmovable, say the earth for example) should they not take damage also?

these are holes that need to be filled, and we are just trying to figure out how to do so. it's all about trying to make the game better at the table by figuring out how to the solve the problem now so we don't have to do homework in the middle of a game session.

Right I would rather help somebody figure it out here than have to pause a game for who knows how long to get it resolved there.

[Killer Cyborg]

because PB forgot about this particular aspect of their game mechanics (i mean come on, crash damage should be important given the number of things that potentialy plummet out of the sky at a high rate of speed in rifts, SAMAS and Dragons being two of them).

the problem is how do you fill the gaping hole left by PB and still have a sense of versimilitude (unlike the GI Joe rule or weapon damage scaling) while still integrated with the rules that already exist.

Just use the vehicle crash rules from N&S.
100 SDC = 1 MD.

[Killer Cyborg]

because PB forgot about this particular aspect of their game mechanics (i mean come on, crash damage should be important given the number of things that potentialy plummet out of the sky at a high rate of speed in rifts, SAMAS and Dragons being two of them).

the problem is how do you fill the gaping hole left by PB and still have a sense of versimilitude (unlike the GI Joe rule or weapon damage scaling) while still integrated with the rules that already exist.

Just use the vehicle crash rules from N&S.
100 SDC = 1 MD.

i refuse to use the rules found in N&SS on the grounds that i do not own that book.

plus it only covers SDC vs SDC, not MDC vs SDC or MDC vs MDC.

It should all be the same.
100 SDC = 1 MD.

[Library Ogre]

because PB forgot about this particular aspect of their game mechanics (i mean come on, crash damage should be important given the number of things that potentialy plummet out of the sky at a high rate of speed in rifts, SAMAS and Dragons being two of them).

the problem is how do you fill the gaping hole left by PB and still have a sense of versimilitude (unlike the GI Joe rule or weapon damage scaling) while still integrated with the rules that already exist.

Just use the vehicle crash rules from N&S.
100 SDC = 1 MD.

i refuse to use the rules found in N&SS on the grounds that i do not own that book.

plus it only covers SDC vs SDC, not MDC vs SDC or MDC vs MDC.

It should all be the same.
100 SDC = 1 MD.

Isn't this the standard rules? Any time a single strike (like, a single body hitting the ground) causes 100 or more SDC, it causes 1 MD per 100 SDC?

Seriously, this isn't unreasonable.

[Killer Cyborg]

still doesn't help as i still don't have the book.

It might be in HU or HU2 or somewhere.
Other than that, I guess you're out of luck until you get the book.

But the fact remains that Palladium does have rules for it.

[Sureshot]

A dragon in a dive is going to be going more than 70mph.

Don't remind me. I still remember when a Dragon Hatchling Pc in our group dived bomb or CS APC and nearly totalled it.

[Omega6]

Falling damage has always been 1D6 (S.D.C.) per 10 feet. S.D.C. is 1/100th of M.D.C. So, it would be 1D6x100 or 1D6 M.D. per 1000 feet.
A dragon hatching might die if dropped 100,000 feet (1D6x100 M.D.), but an adult dragon would have to be injured beforehand. Also, don't forget to roll with punch/fall.

I remember a different post about HANO (High Altitude No Opening) jumping cyborgs. It mentioned cyborgs jumping from aircraft without parachutes. I like the idea.

[Shadyslug]

dropped 100,000 feet

Hmm...

Approx 19 miles...

[Thinyser]

dropped 100,000 feet

Hmm...

Approx 19 miles...

Aye

they would reach terminal velocity LONG before then... like around 1000 foot drop and they aren't going ot be going any faster... but the rules dont take this into account.

[Subjugator]

OK

Here's a basic rule for you:

Items moving at a high speed that come to a sudden stop are going to take damage not only because of the impact with whatever is stopping them, but because of internal pressures where the item essentially crashes into itself.

As such, if a dragon that is moving at 500mph+ crashes into the ground and comes to a sudden stop, it's going to take a LOT of MD.

/Sub

[Thinyser]

OK

Here's a basic rule for you:

Items moving at a high speed that come to a sudden stop are going to take damage not only because of the impact with whatever is stopping them, but because of internal pressures where the item essentially crashes into itself.

As such, if a dragon that is moving at 500mph+ crashes into the ground and comes to a sudden stop, it's going to take a LOT of MD.

/Sub

Yep but said dragon should not be able to "fall" at 500+ MPH it should top out about 250 mph which is still a boatload of damage but not as much as 500 MPH


And stop changing your avitar i cant keep it straight!

[Subjugator]

OK

Here's a basic rule for you:

Items moving at a high speed that come to a sudden stop are going to take damage not only because of the impact with whatever is stopping them, but because of internal pressures where the item essentially crashes into itself.

As such, if a dragon that is moving at 500mph+ crashes into the ground and comes to a sudden stop, it's going to take a LOT of MD.

/Sub

Yep but said dragon should not be able to "fall" at 500+ MPH it should top out about 250 mph which is still a boatload of damage but not as much as 500 MPH


And stop changing your avitar i cant keep it straight!

I checked on that website, and if properly formed, it could fall at 500MPH.

It'll hopefully be changing again tonight...one last time.

/Sub

[Subjugator]

And stop changing your avitar i cant keep it straight!

OK - that's the last time (for a while) that I'll change my Avatar.

OK?

/Sub

[Thinyser]

OK

Here's a basic rule for you:

Items moving at a high speed that come to a sudden stop are going to take damage not only because of the impact with whatever is stopping them, but because of internal pressures where the item essentially crashes into itself.

As such, if a dragon that is moving at 500mph+ crashes into the ground and comes to a sudden stop, it's going to take a LOT of MD.

/Sub

Yep but said dragon should not be able to "fall" at 500+ MPH it should top out about 250 mph which is still a boatload of damage but not as much as 500 MPH


And stop changing your avitar i cant keep it straight!

I checked on that website, and if properly formed, it could fall at 500MPH.

It'll hopefully be changing again tonight...one last time.

/Sub

What numbers did you input? because there is no way it should be going that fast at terminal velocity.