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Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:43 am
  

Dungeon Crawler

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First of all, let me preface this with what should be blindingly obvious. 2017 was a complete and utter washout with regard to any progress on Wave 2 RTT. No quotes were accepted and all of the updates throughtout the whole year had no tangible proof that Palladium had made any strides to homouring their KS promises to their backers , who entrusted them many years earlier with the sizeable investment of over $1.5 million to deliver.

Okay 2018 what should happen?

1. Palladium must by the end of this month show the final renders for every outstanding model and objective destined for Wave 2.
Why?
This at least proves that they have completed this key milestone in delivering the project and are ready to go to potential manufacturing. If not then after what is soon to be five years the obvious question is why not and exactly what have you been doing to this point.

2. Palladium need to make an obvious decision about the way forward. Are they going to stick with the expensive ABS plastic and therefor ethe vexed issues of parts?
I would suugest moving to a cheaper softer plastic - something on the line of that used by Fantasy Flight for example, may allow for one piece models or at the very worse case maybe four or five piece for larger kits.
Oh but what aboutthe modelling opportunities , all of the models will look the same .....news the actual choices in the first wave were limited unless you had some experience and I contend this would be the case for the one piece models - veterans would stil be able to cut and repose if needed.
I am no expert regarding manufacture and costs, but I assume this would be chaeper, but if anyone has more knowledge of costs and possibilities please chip in

3. Communication has gone from bad, to terrible , to tolerable back to bad.

The bi-weekly updates from Scott were welcome to begin with, but after seven or eight it was becoming obvious that there was no news he wanted to share and was literally just ticking off the box.

Answer, make an effort - afterall someone said you published books as a living? - to maintain a regular update feed, my preference wpuld be once a month with more if something breaks. However, these updates must have information relevant to the KS project and then if time try to push the game to the community, show painted models , share ideas about rules. in short get people talking about the game and not PB's failures

Note the last couple of PBWU's have not even included the almost mandatory cut and paste RTT comments/adverts, this is seriously worrying insomuch it smacks of trying to bury all evidence taht PB were ever involved

As I said at the start PB have quite wilfully let a lot of people down with this project. They launched on a wave of optimism and nostalgia that generated a lot of money and to begin with a lot of goodwill. Look back at the early posts, the work put in by Mike, Jaymz, Captain Karruthers, there were an awful lot of people rooting for RTT and wanted a sucess that would have driven a call to move to later series - especially the Invid I suspect. However, for whatever reasons - as a backer I would love to know what they were, especially after the pointed comments from John Candice) Palladium not only dropped the ball, it then rolled off the pitch under some seats and now they are claiming they cannot find it (and possibly that was the only one they had).

After all of this time the chances of making RTT even a moderate sucess are very slim, but that should not excuse PB from making every effort to keep their side of the bargain. If nothing else it would drawa line under what could be most kindly described as a fiasco and let them go onto other things without the millstone of RTT around their necks.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:45 pm
  

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There are certainly some valid questions there regarding a project that was supposed to take a little over 6 months to complete that is coming up on 60 months with no end in sight. I don't think you'll get any answers from Palladium though.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:48 pm
  

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bielmic wrote:
There are certainly some valid questions there regarding a project that was supposed to take a little over 6 months to complete that is coming up on 60 months with no end in sight. I don't think you'll get any answers from Palladium though.


You are right of course, getting answers is as liklely at the moment as palladium actaually coming out and apologising for the complete pig's ear they have made of this.

However, at this point I suggest that these are more relevant than ever, given at some point this year - unless there is a dramatic and unforeseen change - as this project is on its last legs and for all intent and purposes is a failure.

As pointed out in the other long thread we are at the point when palladium have to get real and draw an unchangeable line in the sand as regards manufacture in 2018 and if they cannot meet it face up to the consequences of their failure to deliver


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:25 pm
  

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To be fair, we can get a lot of info, just based on the lack of info.

1) Does Palladium want to be transparent in regards to where this project is currently at? Nope.

2) Does Palladium have the renders ready? Nope, or at least unlikely.
*Except the one they showed with the KS with Scott introducing himself, and the bases.

3) Has any progress been made in securing a manufacturer? Nope.
*Notice they were talking about getting quotes at GenCon and then silence. I think it's reasonable to assume, none of the quotes they fielded were at the right price point to make it possible to deliver wave 2.

4) Do project updates have anything to do with actual progress of the project? Nope.

5) Can Scott even stick to a schedule to deliver an "update" in his own timeframe? Apparently not.

If Wave two was a game of Three Card Monte, Palladium is essentially running out of cups, to hide the fact that zero progress has been made.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:47 am
  

Dungeon Crawler

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Yup. Palladium have had over three years (since delivery of Wave 1 starting in October, 2014), to show progress.

We've had the wire frame breakdowns in late February, and that's been it. But everything else has been secret squirrel.

What happened to the quotes that were being discussed in 2015? 2016? Early 2017? Scott got deep enough into the negotiations in his second Update that end of year 2017 was considered a possibility. There were then a few competing parties around GenCon. What happened to those quotes? Was it an issue of price? Could they not handle the volume? Was the volume insufficient (when I was working in metal diecasting, we had minimum volume orders)? Were they not able to handle the specifics? Knowing why something didn't work is an important part of having people accept a delay. And you don't have to do a direct scan of the quote to provide actual information.

And Scott missing the second established deadline in a row without notice (and the third in his tenure), doesn't bode well for things. Someone else at PB could have posted a "Sorry, Scott is sick/busy/dealing with a personal issue/abducted by aliens, and he hopes to have an Update later this week/next week/later this month". No, it would not have gone over well, at least not with a certain portion of the crowd. But it would have helped show a renewed commitment to keeping to timelines that Scott was trying to establish.

That's been an issue for the length of this project, that either a timeframe is just ignored and apologized for later, or in some instances, is announced in advance, but the knowledge that it would be missed has been known for much longer. Example, there's no way when PB said in late September 2013, that there was still a possibility of 2013, that they knew it was possible. They still hadn't approved any pre-production prototypes, let alone test sprues, at that point.

Palladium have kept information from backers so often, it's no wonder so many backers are so skeptical.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:23 pm
  

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I 100% agree with all of this. You know, I and who knows how many of you will be at the Open House. I wonder how many of us will be asking questions about RTT. I'm willing to get on my hands and knees to bag for an answer from them if need be. And just to be clear, I almost 100% sure they have done nothing wrong, just that things have gone VERY wrong and or they did things the wrong way to create more work for them and waste money, but not on purpose. :-( :(


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:29 am
  

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Alpha 11 wrote:
I 100% agree with all of this. You know, I and who knows how many of you will be at the Open House. I wonder how many of us will be asking questions about RTT. I'm willing to get on my hands and knees to bag for an answer from them if need be. And just to be clear, I almost 100% sure they have done nothing wrong, just that things have gone VERY wrong and or they did things the wrong way to create more work for them and waste money, but not on purpose. :-( :(


I appreciate you spoke up. But you are wrong sir. Let me explain.

All of this is my opinion:

There are two types of wrongs allegedly committed with the project. The first sort is logistical. For whatever reason (which in hindsight doesn't matter), be it the funding wasn't accurately measured, splitting the project into two waves, not understanding the contract with Ninja Division, and a handful of other things; a logistical wrong (or many logistical wrongs) is likely the reason the project hasn't delivered. To this point I agree with you 100%. Palladium didn't get in bed with this project to just fail... That would be ridiculous.

The second type of wrong is deception. Which Palladium is actively participating in... The updates have had literally nothing to do with any progress about the project in like... forever... The quotes that were mentioned... Nothing further on the topic... Did the quotes not get done, were the prices too much, was the manufacturers too busy...? Who knows? I wrote a blog post about what they've said about the project before and after Scott took over... I'm putting it Below.

http://withinthedungeon.blogspot.com/20 ... uotes.html

They are willfully withholding information about the status of the project. It's deception by omission. That is a choice on their part and 100% wrong. I can only speculate why they are doing this... But, most here have already taken their pick. If they have the money they are also literally holding it hostage, from folks who want refunds. And who can blame them...? The project is well past it's due date, with no revised do date in site...

I'll bet if Palladium would offer even half the money back, on items not produced. Everyone in that KS page would jump at it. This leads to speculation... If they have that money... Why not give the refund? (and most put together, that they really don't have the money; neither to produce the second wave, or offer even 50% of unproduced pledge items.

Asking questions about RRT at the open house would be great! But, you're not going to get an answer which is any better than anyone else has gotten... Since this project was broken into to two waves... Some Three years ago.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:14 pm
  

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I agree that you have to separate the "wrongdoing" by palladium by acknowledging that they did not wilfully and purposely misappropriate t the kickstarter funding, ie commit actual fruad. However, I would contend that they have and continue to wilfully mismange this project.

This mismangement takes a couple of forms. The most obvious is the seeming lack of any progress to fulfilling their commitments. However this is not just the major components such as the outstanding wave 2 models and the resin pieces (remember these, there is no reasonable explanation as to why these were not completed years ago in the US). there are also the small incidentals. Evidence of this? Well the Force OOB's finally reemerged in early October 2017 witha nominal six week turnaround - seemed overlong given this was years into the release but hey) yet four months later there is still nothing been posted, it does beggar belief that a publishing house cannot get something like this done in a timely fashion.

The big grey thing, with a trunk in the room is that post by Ninja John that seems to indicate everything was in place to go forward after wave 1 , but then soething happenned.

This then leads onto the second "wrongdoing" the absolute and utter failure to communicate - again from a literary company - is so damning.

The initial failure to produce wave two in the six months after wave 1 was never explained, instead we got an overlong, overblown post from Kevin blaming everyone but himself for the delay without actually detailing what was happnning. This has been the story ever since, update after update has been posted with absolutely no relevant information about progress backed by verifiable evidence - Scott even trumpeted renders seen years bfore.

However, it is here that I would suggest that there is an element of fraud, insomuch that the update (186) adamantly declared the outstanding models were in China being worked on years ago, the same graphic and statement is on the RTT support pages here. This did not happen and so is simply an outright blatant lie that has never been corrected or apologised for.

Alpha, askiing a few questions would be nice but I somehow feel you will get the verbal equivalent of the updates, lots of words no substance. Not bothered to check but are they running any RTT games t the OH this year?


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:47 pm
  

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Panomas II wrote:
Alpha 11 wrote:
I 100% agree with all of this. You know, I and who knows how many of you will be at the Open House. I wonder how many of us will be asking questions about RTT. I'm willing to get on my hands and knees to bag for an answer from them if need be. And just to be clear, I almost 100% sure they have done nothing wrong, just that things have gone VERY wrong and or they did things the wrong way to create more work for them and waste money, but not on purpose. :-( :(


I appreciate you spoke up. But you are wrong sir. Let me explain.

All of this is my opinion:

There are two types of wrongs allegedly committed with the project. The first sort is logistical. For whatever reason (which in hindsight doesn't matter), be it the funding wasn't accurately measured, splitting the project into two waves, not understanding the contract with Ninja Division, and a handful of other things; a logistical wrong (or many logistical wrongs) is likely the reason the project hasn't delivered. To this point I agree with you 100%. Palladium didn't get in bed with this project to just fail... That would be ridiculous.

The second type of wrong is deception. Which Palladium is actively participating in... The updates have had literally nothing to do with any progress about the project in like... forever... The quotes that were mentioned... Nothing further on the topic... Did the quotes not get done, were the prices too much, was the manufacturers too busy...? Who knows? I wrote a blog post about what they've said about the project before and after Scott took over... I'm putting it Below.

http://withinthedungeon.blogspot.com/20 ... uotes.html

They are willfully withholding information about the status of the project. It's deception by omission. That is a choice on their part and 100% wrong. I can only speculate why they are doing this... But, most here have already taken their pick. If they have the money they are also literally holding it hostage, from folks who want refunds. And who can blame them...? The project is well past it's due date, with no revised do date in site...

I'll bet if Palladium would offer even half the money back, on items not produced. Everyone in that KS page would jump at it. This leads to speculation... If they have that money... Why not give the refund? (and most put together, that they really don't have the money; neither to produce the second wave, or offer even 50% of unproduced pledge items.

Asking questions about RRT at the open house would be great! But, you're not going to get an answer which is any better than anyone else has gotten... Since this project was broken into to two waves... Some Three years ago.


I think you misunderstood me a little. It is wrong what they are doing in not telling us why this is all happening. Or maybe I wasn't clear on what I was meaning? Most likely that.

wilycoyote wrote:
However, it is here that I would suggest that there is an element of fraud, insomuch that the update (186) adamantly declared the outstanding models were in China being worked on years ago, the same graphic and statement is on the RTT support pages here. This did not happen and so is simply an outright blatant lie that has never been corrected or apologised for.


Just playing Devil's advocate, but what if they had sent them over. And what info do you have that they hadn't? Just wanting to know were you got that info. And I'm not saying the Kevin hasn't made any bad calls, but what if things just when out of control so fast, they him or anyone at Palladium couldn't do anything to stop it? And as was said, thing were going along and then stopped. Could that "event" have left them in a panic, and then they think, lets not tell anyone and have them panic and then solve this, then explain what happen and go on. Them thinking it most likely wouldn't take to long. That is when they started digging their own grave on this matter. I'm just throwing ideals out there again, and could be completely wrong. As for an RTT tournament, it's on the list of things they want to do. I do play the game still, and still enjoy playing it, so I hope to play people at the OH. I'm the only one who plays the game where I live, so I have to get my friend and brother in law to play me (I have both sides). And they've enjoyed playing it. Anyways, as long a some those are willing to play me at the OH, I will be mailing my stuff there so I can play. In the end, this doesn't make any sence. I've successfully backed several KS's and the majority of them have be very upfront with updates and or problems that have come up, so why hasn't they done the some thing. It's obveriuolsy not working good doing it this way, so they should try doing something else. Sorry if I went to long on this.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:20 am
  

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2018! #YearOfAccountability!!!


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:44 am
  

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I didn't misunderstand what you said... Bold Emphasis mine.

:::Snip:::

Alpha 11 wrote:
I almost 100% sure they have done nothing wrong, just that things have gone VERY wrong and or they did things the wrong way to create more work for them and waste money, but not on purpose. :-( :(


Have done nothing wrong? On purpose...? They are doing it right now, in a myriad of ways...

1) Nobody knows anything about the state of wave 2 beyond the inner circle; lack of transparency, despite the promise (in the spirit of Kickstarter) to do so. All information backers have in regards to a way forward... is Palladium saying, "we are working on it." Transparency would be specifically describing that work. To do otherwise and for a (bolded and capped for emphasis, not yelling) 3 years since the first wave delivered is WRONG. Think about that, 3 years.

2) Minor as it is... The project manager is starting to slip on his own projected updates... He tells backers... And I'm paraphrasing: "I don't expect you to trust me, I have to earn that trust..." How is missing your own projected update, a way to earn trust? If you're the project manager, you are literally saying: "my word isn't enough." This is the project managers job. He is not doing his job, and not doing a job you are hired to do, is wrong. Isn't it. ( I think so) Most of us, have things in work that we don't want to do... But we do them, because if we don't there will be negative repercussion.

3) Three years without a way forward... Let's take Kevin at his word...

Update #186: Aug 26 2015

By: Kevin Siembieda

“…I want you to know there has not been any misappropriation of the funds raised by the Kickstarter, nor any wrongdoing of any kind. Not by me or anyone at Palladium Books.”

The point that he is making here is obvious... That at that date they still had the money, hadn't done any overspending, which some were speculating about. But, what about now? Even if Palladium has the money to produce the second wave, they have been holding onto that money for almost five years since the project started... Three years since the first wave delivered. I would contend it is wrong to hold onto that money, which Kevin clearly states they have... No way forward for one year? OK. Two years? ehhh... But, Three? Get real, give people their money back.

What is the way forward? Who knows? But one thing is for certain, in that Palladium will be mum on the topic. Let's take some examples from the updates (which I blogged about, direct from Kevin. What follows here is pretty much the opposite of transparency, and is more like the definitions of generalization and secrecy.

…we have not been able to show you physical work, because we are exploring different possible solutions…”

“As stated, we’re shooting to release RRT Wave Two around the end of 2015 or sometime in the first quarter of 2016.”

“…as we explore a number of different possibilities. For a variety of business reasons we cannot yet discuss or reveal exactly what we are looking into and considering.“

“As I have stated, for strategic and business reasons we have been unable to share with you everything Palladium has been exploring, considering and working on.”

“We are working on something exciting right now that, if it pans out, could change everything and help us bring you RRT Wave Two by the end of 2017.”

“We have not released details these many months because everything has been in motion, and still is.”


After this we are well into 2017 and Kevin Starts talking about "Quotes." And Then Scott Takes over... Also Talks about Quotes... Then they pair the quotes down, obviously don't get an offer.. They want, or can afford... But do they admit that, NO. That's a choice they make right there... A choice to stop talking about it. Because if after three years, they admit that they were getting quotes... And then admit they got quotes that they couldn't afford, people would know the project is dead. Maybe refunds? Or... People would know Palladium doesn't have the money to produce wave 2... But, instead, nothing is said... How did the quotes go. Not a word. We only get to guess...

Nothing wrong...?

I don't think so...

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:09 pm
  

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Panomas II wrote:
I didn't misunderstand what you said... Bold Emphasis mine.

:::Snip:::

Alpha 11 wrote:
I almost 100% sure they have done nothing wrong, just that things have gone VERY wrong and or they did things the wrong way to create more work for them and waste money, but not on purpose. :-( :(


Have done nothing wrong? On purpose...? They are doing it right now, in a myriad of ways...

1) Nobody knows anything about the state of wave 2 beyond the inner circle; lack of transparency, despite the promise (in the spirit of Kickstarter) to do so. All information backers have in regards to a way forward... is Palladium saying, "we are working on it." Transparency would be specifically describing that work. To do otherwise and for a (bolded and capped for emphasis, not yelling) 3 years since the first wave delivered is WRONG. Think about that, 3 years.

2) Minor as it is... The project manager is starting to slip on his own projected updates... He tells backers... And I'm paraphrasing: "I don't expect you to trust me, I have to earn that trust..." How is missing your own projected update, a way to earn trust? If you're the project manager, you are literally saying: "my word isn't enough." This is the project managers job. He is not doing his job, and not doing a job you are hired to do, is wrong. Isn't it. ( I think so) Most of us, have things in work that we don't want to do... But we do them, because if we don't there will be negative repercussion.

3) Three years without a way forward... Let's take Kevin at his word...

Update #186: Aug 26 2015

By: Kevin Siembieda

“…I want you to know there has not been any misappropriation of the funds raised by the Kickstarter, nor any wrongdoing of any kind. Not by me or anyone at Palladium Books.”

The point that he is making here is obvious... That at that date they still had the money, hadn't done any overspending, which some were speculating about. But, what about now? Even if Palladium has the money to produce the second wave, they have been holding onto that money for almost five years since the project started... Three years since the first wave delivered. I would contend it is wrong to hold onto that money, which Kevin clearly states they have... No way forward for one year? OK. Two years? ehhh... But, Three? Get real, give people their money back.

What is the way forward? Who knows? But one thing is for certain, in that Palladium will be mum on the topic. Let's take some examples from the updates (which I blogged about, direct from Kevin. What follows here is pretty much the opposite of transparency, and is more like the definitions of generalization and secrecy.

…we have not been able to show you physical work, because we are exploring different possible solutions…”

“As stated, we’re shooting to release RRT Wave Two around the end of 2015 or sometime in the first quarter of 2016.”

“…as we explore a number of different possibilities. For a variety of business reasons we cannot yet discuss or reveal exactly what we are looking into and considering.“

“As I have stated, for strategic and business reasons we have been unable to share with you everything Palladium has been exploring, considering and working on.”

“We are working on something exciting right now that, if it pans out, could change everything and help us bring you RRT Wave Two by the end of 2017.”

“We have not released details these many months because everything has been in motion, and still is.”


After this we are well into 2017 and Kevin Starts talking about "Quotes." And Then Scott Takes over... Also Talks about Quotes... Then they pair the quotes down, obviously don't get an offer.. They want, or can afford... But do they admit that, NO. That's a choice they make right there... A choice to stop talking about it. Because if after three years, they admit that they were getting quotes... And then admit they got quotes that they couldn't afford, people would know the project is dead. Maybe refunds? Or... People would know Palladium doesn't have the money to produce wave 2... But, instead, nothing is said... How did the quotes go. Not a word. We only get to guess...

Nothing wrong...?

I don't think so...


My bad then, I said it the wrong way. And I said it in my reply: what they are doing in not telling us things is wrong. I'm on your side on that part. I should have been more clear in what I was saying. Take out them not telling us and this quote " I almost 100% sure they have done nothing wrong, just that things have gone VERY wrong and or they did things the wrong way to create more work for them and waste money, but not on purpose. :-( :( ", goes to the rest about RTT. Hope that clears things up. If not, I'll try to explain it again.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:43 am
  

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Alpha 11 wrote:
Panomas II wrote:
I didn't misunderstand what you said... Bold Emphasis mine.

:::Snip:::

Alpha 11 wrote:
I almost 100% sure they have done nothing wrong, just that things have gone VERY wrong and or they did things the wrong way to create more work for them and waste money, but not on purpose. :-( :(


Have done nothing wrong? On purpose...? They are doing it right now, in a myriad of ways...

1) Nobody knows anything about the state of wave 2 beyond the inner circle; lack of transparency, despite the promise (in the spirit of Kickstarter) to do so. All information backers have in regards to a way forward... is Palladium saying, "we are working on it." Transparency would be specifically describing that work. To do otherwise and for a (bolded and capped for emphasis, not yelling) 3 years since the first wave delivered is WRONG. Think about that, 3 years.

2) Minor as it is... The project manager is starting to slip on his own projected updates... He tells backers... And I'm paraphrasing: "I don't expect you to trust me, I have to earn that trust..." How is missing your own projected update, a way to earn trust? If you're the project manager, you are literally saying: "my word isn't enough." This is the project managers job. He is not doing his job, and not doing a job you are hired to do, is wrong. Isn't it. ( I think so) Most of us, have things in work that we don't want to do... But we do them, because if we don't there will be negative repercussion.

3) Three years without a way forward... Let's take Kevin at his word...

Update #186: Aug 26 2015

By: Kevin Siembieda

“…I want you to know there has not been any misappropriation of the funds raised by the Kickstarter, nor any wrongdoing of any kind. Not by me or anyone at Palladium Books.”

The point that he is making here is obvious... That at that date they still had the money, hadn't done any overspending, which some were speculating about. But, what about now? Even if Palladium has the money to produce the second wave, they have been holding onto that money for almost five years since the project started... Three years since the first wave delivered. I would contend it is wrong to hold onto that money, which Kevin clearly states they have... No way forward for one year? OK. Two years? ehhh... But, Three? Get real, give people their money back.

What is the way forward? Who knows? But one thing is for certain, in that Palladium will be mum on the topic. Let's take some examples from the updates (which I blogged about, direct from Kevin. What follows here is pretty much the opposite of transparency, and is more like the definitions of generalization and secrecy.

…we have not been able to show you physical work, because we are exploring different possible solutions…”

“As stated, we’re shooting to release RRT Wave Two around the end of 2015 or sometime in the first quarter of 2016.”

“…as we explore a number of different possibilities. For a variety of business reasons we cannot yet discuss or reveal exactly what we are looking into and considering.“

“As I have stated, for strategic and business reasons we have been unable to share with you everything Palladium has been exploring, considering and working on.”

“We are working on something exciting right now that, if it pans out, could change everything and help us bring you RRT Wave Two by the end of 2017.”

“We have not released details these many months because everything has been in motion, and still is.”


After this we are well into 2017 and Kevin Starts talking about "Quotes." And Then Scott Takes over... Also Talks about Quotes... Then they pair the quotes down, obviously don't get an offer.. They want, or can afford... But do they admit that, NO. That's a choice they make right there... A choice to stop talking about it. Because if after three years, they admit that they were getting quotes... And then admit they got quotes that they couldn't afford, people would know the project is dead. Maybe refunds? Or... People would know Palladium doesn't have the money to produce wave 2... But, instead, nothing is said... How did the quotes go. Not a word. We only get to guess...

Nothing wrong...?

I don't think so...


My bad then, I said it the wrong way. And I said it in my reply: what they are doing in not telling us things is wrong. I'm on your side on that part. I should have been more clear in what I was saying. Take out them not telling us and this quote " I almost 100% sure they have done nothing wrong, just that things have gone VERY wrong and or they did things the wrong way to create more work for them and waste money, but not on purpose. :-( :( ", goes to the rest about RTT. Hope that clears things up. If not, I'll try to explain it again.


You're fine. And no worries.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:32 am
  

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Palladin

Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 4:14 pm
Posts: 9306
Location: Northwood, ND
Panomas II wrote:
Alpha 11 wrote:
Panomas II wrote:
I didn't misunderstand what you said... Bold Emphasis mine.

:::Snip:::

Alpha 11 wrote:
I almost 100% sure they have done nothing wrong, just that things have gone VERY wrong and or they did things the wrong way to create more work for them and waste money, but not on purpose. :-( :(


Have done nothing wrong? On purpose...? They are doing it right now, in a myriad of ways...

1) Nobody knows anything about the state of wave 2 beyond the inner circle; lack of transparency, despite the promise (in the spirit of Kickstarter) to do so. All information backers have in regards to a way forward... is Palladium saying, "we are working on it." Transparency would be specifically describing that work. To do otherwise and for a (bolded and capped for emphasis, not yelling) 3 years since the first wave delivered is WRONG. Think about that, 3 years.

2) Minor as it is... The project manager is starting to slip on his own projected updates... He tells backers... And I'm paraphrasing: "I don't expect you to trust me, I have to earn that trust..." How is missing your own projected update, a way to earn trust? If you're the project manager, you are literally saying: "my word isn't enough." This is the project managers job. He is not doing his job, and not doing a job you are hired to do, is wrong. Isn't it. ( I think so) Most of us, have things in work that we don't want to do... But we do them, because if we don't there will be negative repercussion.

3) Three years without a way forward... Let's take Kevin at his word...

Update #186: Aug 26 2015

By: Kevin Siembieda

“…I want you to know there has not been any misappropriation of the funds raised by the Kickstarter, nor any wrongdoing of any kind. Not by me or anyone at Palladium Books.”

The point that he is making here is obvious... That at that date they still had the money, hadn't done any overspending, which some were speculating about. But, what about now? Even if Palladium has the money to produce the second wave, they have been holding onto that money for almost five years since the project started... Three years since the first wave delivered. I would contend it is wrong to hold onto that money, which Kevin clearly states they have... No way forward for one year? OK. Two years? ehhh... But, Three? Get real, give people their money back.

What is the way forward? Who knows? But one thing is for certain, in that Palladium will be mum on the topic. Let's take some examples from the updates (which I blogged about, direct from Kevin. What follows here is pretty much the opposite of transparency, and is more like the definitions of generalization and secrecy.

…we have not been able to show you physical work, because we are exploring different possible solutions…”

“As stated, we’re shooting to release RRT Wave Two around the end of 2015 or sometime in the first quarter of 2016.”

“…as we explore a number of different possibilities. For a variety of business reasons we cannot yet discuss or reveal exactly what we are looking into and considering.“

“As I have stated, for strategic and business reasons we have been unable to share with you everything Palladium has been exploring, considering and working on.”

“We are working on something exciting right now that, if it pans out, could change everything and help us bring you RRT Wave Two by the end of 2017.”

“We have not released details these many months because everything has been in motion, and still is.”


After this we are well into 2017 and Kevin Starts talking about "Quotes." And Then Scott Takes over... Also Talks about Quotes... Then they pair the quotes down, obviously don't get an offer.. They want, or can afford... But do they admit that, NO. That's a choice they make right there... A choice to stop talking about it. Because if after three years, they admit that they were getting quotes... And then admit they got quotes that they couldn't afford, people would know the project is dead. Maybe refunds? Or... People would know Palladium doesn't have the money to produce wave 2... But, instead, nothing is said... How did the quotes go. Not a word. We only get to guess...

Nothing wrong...?

I don't think so...


My bad then, I said it the wrong way. And I said it in my reply: what they are doing in not telling us things is wrong. I'm on your side on that part. I should have been more clear in what I was saying. Take out them not telling us and this quote " I almost 100% sure they have done nothing wrong, just that things have gone VERY wrong and or they did things the wrong way to create more work for them and waste money, but not on purpose. :-( :( ", goes to the rest about RTT. Hope that clears things up. If not, I'll try to explain it again.


You're fine. And no worries.


:D Cool!


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:47 pm
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:14 pm
Posts: 313
Oh I do like a good discussion.

Anyway Alpha, regarding my comment on the wave 2 and PB's claim that they were sent to China, this is a flat statement that they purport to be fact - same update 186 Aug 2015 and the RTT resource page posted around the same date.

Now, if those renders were sent and for whatever reason this fell through, this was a critical moment in the project, presupposing that PB still had funds and this was the same manufacturer set up by Ninja Division. Note at this point there was no indication that PB/Kevin has changed the factory or were considering lower parts counts etc and so there was nothing to suggest that they were not following the original plan, set out when they made the decision to split into two waves. I strongly contend that if this was the point of absolute failure that they had to know that they had to let the backers know. Therefore by withholding that information and continuing to stand by their graphic, this is a deliberate move to mislead and therefore could be interpreted as a fraudelent act.

This was nearly three years ago and as we all know only to well no progress to actual manufacturing has been made - the quotes fiasco alone has spanned well over a year. During this time costs have obviously risen - especially biting are those for postage - which we should be able to divine that the monies left will not go as far - basic economics for 5 year olds - so it begs the obvious question, are PB still able to cover the costs of the outstanding rewards?

I cannot answer that because I simply do not have that information and so have to speculate. However, the continuing act of empty updates to simply "kick the can down the road" would seem indicative of stalling and unless I am way of the mark is a striong piece of evidence to say that PB cannot fulfil their promises.

So that being the case - I think Morgan stated this before - they must simply stop pretending, set themselves a final deadline after which point if nothing can happen, they declare the project failed and start the unavoidable and very unpalatable discussion of refunds


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:42 pm
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:38 pm
Posts: 243
wilycoyote wrote:
So that being the case - I think Morgan stated this before - they must simply stop pretending, set themselves a final deadline after which point if nothing can happen, they declare the project failed and start the unavoidable and very unpalatable discussion of refunds

Yup. That's been me.

And as I also said, they don't have to commit to an unrealistically aggressive position. with Palladium trademark optimism.

On Scott's addendum to his first post, Scott said that end of year was a possibility. That would have been 27 weeks. So triple it. That's 81 weeks. Add in another 20 weeks for incidentals like GenCon, POH, Chinese New Year, anything else where PB can't dedicate themselves to getting it done. That's 101 weeks.

Which not coincidentally (I worked from that date backwards), would be end of year, 2019, from next Tuesday, when the next Kickstarter Update would be due if the last one had been on time.

Also, it's approximately the amount of time that Wave one took, to go from something beyond a concept, to completion of Wave 1. There were statements that active development started approximately six months before the Kickstarter Launch, putting it at mid November, 2012. And it started shipping in early October 2014. That's 98 weeks.

As we've seen, there's been some work on the Wave 2 stuff (PPP's of GEldare and FPA, digital sculpts of most if not all other units, wireframe work in the 2015 Update), so they're in a better position for Wave 2 than they were for Wave 1.

So I think I'm setting a REALLY low bar for completion at EoY2019, if there's ANY kind of drive to complete the project. So there should be no reason for PB to commit in a meaningful way, by setting a terminal point. The only reason not to, is if it's their intent to keep kicking this can down the road.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:41 pm
  

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Explorer

Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:23 am
Posts: 129
That's an excellent point...

So the actual Drop Dead date, based on what we can assume at this time is a totally idle project (rebooting) vs the license running out... Would be sometime around the next six months? Right?

And that would be the next six months for them to be able to say... Manufacturing has started... This is why nothing will get done.

What happens to the product that is already made when the license runs out will they be able to still sell it?

And +100 points to Two Gun Bob over at the Robotech RPG Tactics comments section in while waiting for another late update; I was laughing so hard I was choking on my coffee.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:22 am
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:38 pm
Posts: 243
Panomas II wrote:
That's an excellent point...

So the actual Drop Dead date, based on what we can assume at this time is a totally idle project (rebooting) vs the license running out... Would be sometime around the next six months? Right?

And that would be the next six months for them to be able to say... Manufacturing has started... This is why nothing will get done.

What happens to the product that is already made when the license runs out will they be able to still sell it?

And +100 points to Two Gun Bob over at the Robotech RPG Tactics comments section in while waiting for another late update; I was laughing so hard I was choking on my coffee.

Not sure what you're meaning there. I'm suggesting the end of 2019, and the speculation on the license running out, via the court cases reported on, is March 2021. Plenty of time in there for PB to extract a return on investment. And that's assuming they need 23 months to get it done. According to Scott, 6 months is feasible if they can get their ducks in a row. That'd give them over two and a half years. Given the size and variety of the Gen 2 and Gen 3 stuff, it SHOULD be possible to fulfill the promise of getting the complete series into production with sufficient time to maximize returns, before the speculated contract lapses.

I honestly don't know what the laws are with regards sales of previously licensed material. I'm pretty sure they're still allowed to sell it, but that they're not allowed to make any more (so if the cores run out, they're stuck trying to only sell expansion packs). Could be wrong. IP law is murky.


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