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Little to be said about this week's PBWU, but the new about the cancellation of the Rifts KS, is interesting.

Given that RTT was "put on the back burner" earlier this year, presumably so work could be done helping the launch of the Rifts BG, then does that now mean that it is now to be promoted and get the attention it desperately needs. If it is to be left until later in the year would there be a possibility it would then clash with a possible relaunch of carmen's KS, causing more delays - albeit I would have assumed all the necessary approvals for figures and artwork was already done and therefore there would be very little extra for PB to do.

It is again hoped, illness permitting that now there is a clear field that Palladium now issue the long awaited but now more than ever needed upadte on RTT

I doubt there will ever be another substantive update for RRT.

I would argue that without a renewed show of faith in RTT, including some immediate concrete evidence of progress then the toxicity surrounding this project and the outright anger it causes some will continue to plague anything PB or anyone associated to PB that tries to push product outside of their own little world.

It really is not that difficult to address customer/backer concerns, simply update them on what is happenning, something not done for months. Stop hiding behind pat phrases like "What we have planned is amazing, you will be gobsmacked, but oh sorry we cannot tell you about it yet". I will accept that for a week or two,, especially if there are contracts but this line is trotted out week after week, month after month.

Simple , definate information is all that is needed and wanted - I harp on about it but we were promised a full status update on every outstanding model, what 18 months ago( or was it more?) why has this not been done.

RTT backers can do nothing by themselves to progress this project , that lies solely in the hnds on PB, but as demonstrated on the Rifts BG KS, there are some who will try to ensure that everyone is aware (rightly or wrongly) that what many perceive as a botched projrct is still awaiting resolution and could effect the next one

The reality of the situation is that RRT has made Palladium Books so toxic that it will attract plenty of untoward attention, and that goes double for any type of crowdfunding.

And yes, before anyone bothers saying it, I'm aware that Rogue Heroes has proclaimed at length that they are not affiliated with Palladium Books. The problem is, the people who are angry and frustrated don't care. Just using PB's Intellectual Property is enough to garner ire.

There are ways they could try to attend to this; show substantial progress with wave 2 (and make good on it, in a timeframe measured in quarters, not years). They could begin some sort of refund process (cash, in trade for other items collecting dust around the warehouse, whatever). If funding is short for either of these, they could procure more via 'normal' means, or go back to the well of "save us, fans, you're our only hope!" as they did post Crisis of Treachery. Or something else entirely, perhaps leveraging some of the business contacts they've presumably built over their 1/3'ish of a century in the RPG industry.

To be clear, I didn't pledge a cent to the Rifts BG campaign, nor did I comment on it (on their page), nor did I push anyone to go mess the place up.

But it's unrealistic to think this is going away.

Unfair as it may be to Carmen, I think this is an indication that a substantial number of people are still very unhappy with how this campaign was run and has failed to progress, and in this era of social media, all it takes is a couple dozen to make a mess of things. And while PB newsletters and updates always downplay those irate backers as a vocal minority, I think we can safely say they're having an impact regardless of how many there are.

Wow, evebn having a week off and not having tho write copiuis amounys about the Rifts BG KS - although it does get further up the bill than RTT - and that is all you have?

We have big plans and if they come together it would be epic, er that does not sound like a plan but a hoped for wish? So after nearly five months of silence you still have nothing concrete that you can pass onto the RTT community?

Sorry Palladium, this is just either sheer faced lies or you are simply demonstrating that you have no real desire to fulfil this KS.

It is a really simple straightforward task that is in front of you, complete and send out wave 2. If after that point you have plans to expand and repromote the game so be it, but without the support of the vast majority of people who have this game, that is the RTT backers, any future planning is frankly wasting your time.

Sadly, until you feel fit to resolve this by producing wave 2, the acrimony and resentment felt by many RTT backers is going to taint other Palladium or linked product, as was amply demonstrated by the collapse of the Rifts BG KS - albeit it was already a badly organised, badly priced enterprise to begin with.

Regarding the warning: if one were to give the benefit of the doubt, the newsletters have been repeating some variation on 'waiting for quotes' for something like half a year, possibly more. They were supposed to tell us more back in January, and then that moved to February, and now we're in mid May and we still haven't seen anything. THAT SAID, I totally get that business can have snags, maybe the quote was too high, maybe the process being suggested would have been an even bigger mess than the wave 1 figures (in terms of parts count, something PB has latched onto as apparently being the most important thing in the world, up to and including letting this project drift towards the half decade marker). BUT, if that's the case, that would be an interesting thing to hear. Nobody sensible is asking for exacting particulars here, but how about some general talk about the difficulties they're facing? What is the next step, the ACTUAL next step? Because 'it's boiling over' or 'epic things are coming' isn't a plan, it's vague reassurances that carry zero weight to them.

The lack of detail, of transparency, of pro-active attention to these kinds of details, are what make their silence punctuated with meager pablum seem like lying. If it's not a smokescreen to their lack of progress/effort, then how about showcasing something? Anything?

2014 had wave 1 deliver.
2015 had a handful of sprue breakdowns in February, and a promise of a detailed breakdown of where every piece was at by Wayne in the Summer (June or July).
2016 had the SDF-1 resin prototype and a handful of 3D printed prototypes in March/April.

Since then we've had... the cards go up on DTRPG. 13-14 months and counting with zero tangible progress (I believe people were saying the cards had 2014 on their copyright date, so I'm not counting them as progress unless they went through a massive revision process before they ended up in our hands). That's a pretty reasonable thing to be frustrated about. As has been often said, if there are things going on in the background that would alleviate concerns about them not making progress, the best way to alleviate them would be... to show it off. I don't buy that the mild critique they got the last time they showcased progress was somehow so terrible it is better to punish the entire backer base with silence for months if not years.

And yes, I'm aware "PB doesn't read the forums". These same critiques and suggestions have been told to them on Facebook, at conventions, in emails, on the Kickstarter comments back when they seemed to bother providing updates, and more. There seem to be zero avenues to provide critique or commentary that they care to actively participate in, so I'm happy to converse with those few who do wander into this subforum once in a while on the topic.

Fair enough, I probably pushed a wee bit too far with that post. I will rein back a little in the future

However I would echo, Forar that this is mostly born of the frustration of not seeing any information about what is gpoing on at the moment.

Another weekly update and as has been the case for weeks/months absolutely no concrete news about any progress as regards the wave 2 production. In a similar vein, it musr be time for a update on Kickstarter?

If an update is planned may I suggest that PB should after all this time be in a position to show off all of the 3d models created fo wave 2. I can understand to a limited extent that getting from these to production is potentiallyfraught with issues, however we are still to see any sign of the FPA's, MPA's Zent infantry or the resin objective pieces - withthe exception of the disguised Max (not posted but was in a display case picture). In addition there are the personality models for Rick, Fokker, Khyron and Mirya.

I would contend that even giving backers sight of all these wave 2 renders is something, as the continuing loud sound of silence is deafening in what is not being said

Just musing it has been over three months since the last kickstarter update - but to be fair it is actually longer as those in February were prompted by the unfortunate circumstances of the Rifts BG. It is also fast approaching the second anniversary of the complete status of every outstanding model in wave 2.

As posted above, the RTT community is starved of any positive information on progress - even if painfully slow - and sadly it is only PB that can supply this.

Given at the end of last year the goal was to get wave 2 out in 2017, it is plainly obvious that this cannot now be done. Likewise it remains doubtful - given the other books due for more immediate release - that the RTT scenario bok or Ghost Fleet supplement will arrive either.

We are fast approaching Gencon and so so are we again going to find out what the state of play is via a "leak" or can we now quite reasonably expect PB to man up and tell us what is going on.

It is not unreasonable to believe at this point that unless work on test models/sprues etc is started before the fourth quarter of 2017 the likiehood of a 2018 release is also becoming a precarious objective for PB ro make good on.

These are effectively simple questions directed at the project manager of the RTT KS and ones that they should be able to answer, it is hoped that a shred of customer service remains and they do so.

Okay the new PBWU is up, just move along nothing to see here.......

Nearly half a year with no meaningful update posted to KS and nearly two years since the promise of the status breakdown, I do not know, why there is not the slightest trickle of information about progess being passed to the investors in this project.

Actually it's been a heck of a lot longer than you think. The last update showing ANY forward progress was March/April 2016 when they showed off some 3d renders and the small resin sdf-1 at adepticon. That's not counting the very info dry 2015 before that. Just about every update on rrt either here or on the kickstarter site are usually the same, summed up to "nothing to tell but please buy stuff" if you'll pardon the paraphrasing. Oh and I can't forget the last 2 "all you backers are mean, but buy stuff" updates.

It has been about 2-3 years since we saw substantial progress; 2014 for wave one delivery, I don't consider a half dozen sprue breakdown renders in 2015 and another half dozen prototypes in 2016 to be 'substantial progress' considering how much is left to do here.

But I assume the 'half year' comment wasn't so much about the time since they actually produced something, and more related to the comments that have been showing up since early this year (or so) in the newsletters about 'waiting on quotes' and 'trying to reduce the parts count' or variations thereof. Those have been common over the years for sure, but there was a notable uptick in that kind of talk at the start of this year.

Oh, and some very confident/definitive statements about Wave 2 delivery. Funny how we're now half way into the year and RRT barely even gets mentioned anymore. Just kinda quietly falling by the wayside...

I just don't see a ton of positive news surrounding this game any time soon.

Until or unless PB announce something substantial and informative (with pictures!), what's the point? They've kicked this can down the road each and every year since early 2014.

And there's simply been nothing said that makes it look like 2017 is any different. The last official report that backers got, still says "we are dedicated to getting Wave 2 done and in your hands by the end of 2017". But with no manufacturer finalized, a few full-form (not pre-prototype*) prints, and PB continuing to futz around with new developments, there's zero reasons to believe that 2017 isn't going to be the same as 2014, 2015, or 2016.

* There's a significant difference between the two. The former is easily made and shows proof of concept, from digital sculpts that PB have had since the campaign, and doesn't have any real effect on manufacturing. The latter is used for developing the molds needed to actually make the miniatures.

Just a reminder, at this point in 2014, starting from progress on the 1st of January, we'd seen many PPP's, and nearly all the test sprues, for Wave 1, which delivered in October. Heck, manufacturing "started" (for a vague definition of started), mid June. There has been zero evidence that there's been any progress since March 1st, 2015. Ironically, that post gives the reinforcing statement "there’s no reason you guys should ever feel in the dark so much that you start to worry about whether we’re even working on this stuff.". And then follows it up with "Today, I’ll start with the few pieces I mentioned in the January 17, 2015 Update. More will be coming in the following days.". And that was literally the last new thing mentioned.

As PB are seeking quotes, that gives a high probability that even this work on the parts breakdown has probably been scrapped. I'm curious how long it'll be before someone at PB will concede that 2017 is not a possibility, but the relaunch in 2018, with delivery of Wave 2, will be AWESOME!

So, a little over two years since a real update.

Ouch. That's depressing. Whole games have kickstarted and been delivered in that time-frame.

Shadows of Brimstone is a game that a similar number of backers followed for a similar amount of money (overall and per backer) in a similar time frame (Nov 2013 rather than April/May) that ended up with hundreds of elements between dice and rule books and missions and figures (well over 100 of those) and cards and tiles and tokens and more, and they're just finally starting to deliver now for the remainder of what was owed (they delivered their wave one roughly on time).

Now, these aren't perfect 1:1 comparisons here, nor am I trying to make them out to be, but what I find fascinating are the people who are chomping at the bit to declare that project a sham and a scam and how angry there are.

As someone who was a part of both, I just sigh wistfully. Some remain angry while giant boxes of product are going into the mail as we speak, and here we can measure in years (plural) how long it has been since we saw substantial progress.

Again, I'm not saying every project is perfectly comparable. Hell, I'll even point out that unlike RRT, SoB was a new Intellectual Property, so the creators didn't have a Harmony Gold analog to run everything past.

But they're also managing to deliver more in less time, so...

I didn't back SoB, but I'm guessing they don't have as many angry backers as RTT.

Did SoB have informative updates that kept backers up to date on progress? I can understand a project of that magnitude taking far longer than they originally anticipated. (A friend of mine was a Minecart backer, if that's the right name, and he says there is something like a 40 lb box of plastic goodness on the way to his house.)

So, while SoB may also be very late, if they did keep their backers informed of progress, that could explain the difference in perception of the two projects.

I don't mind if something is late if I feel that the creator is making progress and is doing their best to keep us backers informed. It's the not knowing what is happening that is the most frustrating part to me.

Not nearly so many backers, but there are still some. And some do have legitimate gripes. Communication (at least in frequency) is garbage. But most of their Updates are full of informative stuff. New art, new sculpts, new cards and other gameplay elements. Some of the gripes are less than legitimate (the extortion claims, the first because FFP batched some content together for the retail box sets and asked people who wanted full retail contents to pay the difference, everything in the campaign was still provided at no additional cost, and the second because FFP offered an early partial shipment if you paid shipping, to name two). And one in particular is an entitlement expectation that was never stated. Ironically, PB did, and they received legitimate backlash for it. During the FFP campaign, there was never any mention of "Backers First". And nearly all backers (Australia excepted) got their core boxes before it went retail. But some are under the unrealistic expectation that FFP shouldn't sell anything until they've completed the 50+ expansions that are due.

And while FFP don't advertise it, they appear to issue refunds if asked. I'm yet to hear anyone declare that they've asked for a refund, and been refused. Another big difference from PB. Most people still griping realise that their a) going to get their product eventually, and b) will be able to at least make their money back (and then some) on selling on EBay or the like. Again, not something a significant number of RRT backers appear to believe.

As I mentioned above, the updates were informative, even if overly optimistic about dates, and there's been a steady, significant improvement in the quality of components (some initial models aren't great), that's verifiable. Because they showed pictures! They're also not unafraid to have those models painted up to be shown in their best light either. Two things PB should consider doing.

And your last point is my own personal takeaway too. I don't mind if I get something late. As long as I'm getting what I was promised, what I'm getting is quality, there's an obvious and earnest attempt by the Creators to do so, and I don't feel like I'm getting my chain yanked. None of which I'd have been able to say about RRT at this date.

If you can get in on your friend's game, I'd recommend it. It's not for everyone (the randomness can annoy some), but of the 40 odd Kickstarter campaigns I've recieved, not only have I gotten more playtime and enjoyment out of SoB than any other, despite spending more than $2000US on it (Minecart original, Brimstone Gold in the followup, plus other addons and bits and bobs), it ranks second in entertainment PER DOLLAR. Only a small $24 game beat Shadows out in that category, and it doesn't compare to hours played. Well over a year playing every week, 3-4 hours every Wednesday. And that was just with the two base cores ($198MSRP). I'm itching for the remainder, and the medieval orient version that's due next year.

That's good to hear. We plan on playing a regular campaign of SoB, but my friend doesn't want to start until he finishes painting the minis. And he has a lot of minis to paint! But, hopefully, soon.

Thanks for the info.

Yes, that's really the take away that has gotten missed over the last four years.

People are willing to be patient, but that patience has to be earned.
Honesty, genuineness, displays of progress, following up with promises, etc.

Aaah the update has arrived, but is sadly very short on tangible progress.

The repeated mantra of waiting on quotes wil not go down well, unless you can show us what youare showing to prospective manufacturers. Afterall you were happy to show renders befre signing up for wave one, why not for wave 2?

So welcome as the update is, I get a feeling that it will do little to still the stormy waters on the RTT KS site

Went back over the update to see if I was indeed missing something blatantly obvious and I was not mistaken.

Scott talks of a discussion with a manufacturer (in China via PBWU) and still waiting after two weeks for revised quotes. However this begs the question that if as stated back in November 2016 PB were getting quotes what happenned in the following six months? As is already pointed out elsewhere is this just the same delaying excuse, but put in a more professional manner.

In the same vein where are the signs of progress on the resin pices, nothing for four years. It should be a siple task to obtain pictures of all (resin/plstic) models currently being worked - to be fair they should be well finshed at this point.

As a UK backer even if production started tomorrow I am resigned to not getting wave 2 mid 2018 at the earliest, but unless a significant move is made in the next few weeks it is more likely 2019, which would be six years late and as yet I am to see a real apology from anyone at PB let alone any mention of some form of restitution for this sad state of affairs

As this sorry project limps on with no end in sight at the moment, it is more and more difficult to ask questions and elicit any response from Scott or anyone at PB without sounding peevish and wandering off into trolldom, this is not the intention, I just want someone to be honest and sttraight with me and my fellow backers

For his sake...I do hope SG has some real information for the next update.

If he is the business manager as he claims...I would hope he is to be going forward on those China supplier calls. It seems pretty need to know information to me.

If there is no actual news on the supposed quotes...for the love of God...do not say 'soon' anywhere..and no where use the term 'I/we hope'. Only state the facts as they are. Hope is not a fact. Just say we do not yet have a resolution.

And SG...you had best come to the next update with some details of what will eventually be produced...and some evidence of what has been done to date. To start...renders of the models would be nice. If none exist...then best to say it.

Since they are not reliant on China....it is time to show something ( or say nothing has yet been done) on the resin pieces...even update on the sdf1 which I believe was seen once.

Just fishing but what price the SDF 1 being available as a limited collectors piece at Gen Con?

I'm having trouble parsing that. Are you asking that as a hypothetical?

It was $20 in the KS. I imagine if it was $25-30 there wouldn't be too much complaining, and it'd be a tiny positive in them actually completing one of the resin pieces that have been left unattended for so long.

However, it'd also probably create something of a s___storm (so darude) as it'd be the first piece from the actual KS produced and released before the backers could get it, possibly for quarters or years (if ever). Max and Miriya and Grell were all allegedly unique Consclusives, this would be an actual KS item finally made (after all these years) and put to market?

I'm sure some people would applaud them finally doing *something*, but it'd be controversial.

yes, I was not making myself roo clear there.

What I was wondering was whether PB would briing anything new to the gen Con Show and given what we saw was a almost all metal casr the SDF! was a thought.

Agreed it would kjck up a storm but like any double edged sword would also show some progress - damned if you do dmned if you don't.

With little new on offer it does seem a little tricky for PB to push RTT asit stands

Thank you Scott for keeping to the schedule and posting another update.

Although short on actual detail, it did for the first time officially confirm what many had already suspected no Wave 2 for backers in 2017, fair enough not really a great surprise.

However it does raise a couple of significant points over PB's action - or more specifically non actions - ove rthe last three and a half years, Exactly what has been going on? Reducing parts counts is an admirable goal but without committing to some sort of manufacture , perhaps how this could be done needs explanation. Why when everything was going throughthe manufacturer of Wave 1 - who presumably was contracted and brifed on all models required were they dropped rather than move on straight after W1 was produced - the part count excuse only came to light a year or so later?

What is happenning over the resin pices and the special Rick and Fokker sets? Beggars belief that nothing has happenned over 4 plus years for presumably the US sourced models?

Finally, Scott please get those pictures into the next update. Simply put you must have had sonething to show brokers/factories, so gerring them should not really be a six week exercise.