Robotech errata - M.A.C II error?

[Wildfire]

Its palladium they can't count

[Comrade Corsarius]

It's a typo, and a well-known one. I tend not to notice so much, as MAC-II units are usually NPC parties in my games. You could also say that the MAC-II's speed is in question as well, as there is an episode where Khyron sits astride one on the way to combat, and it easily keeps up with battle pods racing along. Certainly faster than 48kph, anyway.

Just slot it along with the Spartan, which even though it is an MDC vehicle, has an AR of 13. Go figure.

Just use the damage listed, or use the damage in the blurb of 2400. Are you intending on becoming a MAC-user?

[Comrade Corsarius]

That is unless someone know what it really should do

You'll never never know

or how Palladium did their math.

And you'll never never go.

Just enjoy the never never now.

If you're going to be anal about stats in robotech... my young apprentice, you have only just begun. Let's look at the head lasers on RCBs, or Beta fighter arm guns, or nose lasers on alphas, or where the alpha suddenly gets missile racks in the picture in Invid Invasion (a GU-XX is even mounted atop them!) when there is nothing there, or why roy fokker has pilot jet at 99% or.... we could go on and on and on.. Generally that's what we do here. If you're looking for resolution, you may have come to the wrong place.

[Jefffar]

A typo, one of many.

I tend to up the damage ont he main guns fo the MAC too, mostly because they are intended to be anti-space craft weapons.

I also inflict the big gun penalty to strike.

[Drakenred®™©]

Well if your wanting to explain it away

its 1D6X100 per shell to a spaceship or hard target like a bunker because its literaly fireing AP-H rounds or listed damage for anything in the blast radius from the HE charge that was part of a standard Battleship AP shell

or 6D6X10 to a 50 ft blast radius from an enhanced HE round

or 1D4-1 Anti Armor bomblets(4D6 each) from a "cluster bomb" type shell to a 300 ft radius(assuming that the payload is anti-armor shaped charged cluster munitions) (bombs are programed to drop a spread that would all but guarantee that at least one will hit a ZBP(note, in reality, this is more of a special efects type of load)

(for some reason it always comes a surpise when people find out that the AP shells that are 14 inch or bigger always had a HE "booster" charge that was suposed to go off when the shell stoped moving or when it would have reached the end of its flight, most of them also included Die or smoke bombs so that the splash from a volley could (hopefuly) be identifed back to the ship that actualy fired the round )

[AdmTolval]

It comes close to 2400.
4 rounds per barrel with all 4 barrels firing at one target.
32D6x10. 1920 M.D.
Critical strike- 3840 M.D.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

A typo, one of many.

Ironic how those little typos cause such confusion, eh Jeffar?

[Devjannz]

why roy fokker has pilot jet at 99%

Roy had Pilot Jet at 99% because he was just that damn good.

[punisher1]

To quote tcabril: On page 61 or the Original Robotech RPG book under the M.A.C. II description it states that the 4, 40cm, Automatic Cannons do 2D6 X 10 MD per individual round or can be fired in volleys of 2 or 4 rounds simultaneously (multiply the number of dice rolled appropriately).



Humm well I'm thinking 4 guns shooting 1 round each 2D6 X 10=120

Now if all four guns fire 4 rounds each would give you 1920 damage.

4 shots doing 120 damage is 480 max per gun.
4 guns firing 16 rounds at max damage 480x4=1920
or on natural 20 3840!

Well It's all good if it's on your team, if your fighting against it, it sucks!

Thats pretty beefy!

[R Ditto]

I'd rather just say the the thing fires a variety of shells that are more or less the same as LRM warheads, but do 2-3 times as much damage to a 50-100% larger radius since the shells are so big/heavy compared to the possible warhead size of an LRM.
And yes, it would include nuke shells, but excluding multi-warhead types. The military once crammed a nuclear warhead into a shells just around 280mm, so a 400mm nuke shell shouldn't be all that difficult to do.

The use of shells based LRM warhead types gives more variety to what all the MAC-II can do. It could have a separate type of ammo for each gun, or alternate ammo types, like two with HE or AP and two with Fragmentation. It could use HE or AP against vehicles or static targets, or let loose Fragmentation if bombarding a multitude of smaller targets or just shredding battle pods at range.

Toss in proximity or variable/timed fuses for extra fun, and to turn the MAC-II into one big mobile AAA platform.

[Jefffar]

turn the MAC-II into one big mobile AAA platform.

Actually, that's what I think it was intended to be. Except the aircraft in question were Zentraedi Cruisers.

[Rimmerdal]

it ends up being an anti-air/Anti-Armour unit/Artilleray unit...so I assume it does have variable ammunition.

Targeting rounds

Anti-Aircraft

Anti-Tank

Atrillery

[Jefffar]

The MAC is a very poor anti-armour unit. It lacks speed and is a huge target.

Yeah it's cannons have a 12 mile range, but that takes into account indirect fire. In a direct fire situation it wouldn't have any more effective range than the current generation of battle tanks.

Finally, though it has a large ammount of MDC, a MAC doesn't usually survive very long in a direct fire environment. Why? Because it's too big and slow to dodge and everybody shoots at it.

The MAC II is only useful in a ground battle as indirect fire artillery. It's more important use is as a mobile anti-spacecraft weapon system, cabable of destroying incomming landing craft (which are travelling in more or less a straight line, though an extremely fast one, but still a relatively easy shot) and crippling heavy starships (which are big targets, hard to miss).

Finally, when you look at the enemy the MAC was built to fight (namely the Zentraedi) one has to ask this question: What armour?

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

The MAC should really only have anti-splinter armour plating (maybe 100 max on the main body to account for size alone). The simple reason is that otherwise the danged thing wouldn't be able to move under its own power. The more armour plating you add, the less weight it can carry in munitions, water/coolant (for the onboard reactor as well as for the barrels) and so forth.

[Jefffar]

Since the issue of MAC ammunition was brought up, here's what I think it should load.

A kinetic energy penetrator - mostly for use when it has direct fire oppourtunities agaisnt Zentraedi ships.

A smart fuzed fragmentation munition - capable of use in Anti-Aircraft or Artillery mode.

Concrete/Earth Penetrating explosive round - for use on fortifications

Tactical Nuke - do I really need to tell you why?

There should also be a guidance package available formost of these too.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

There should also be a guidance package available formost of these too.

Hmmm....was there ever seen to be guided hits in the Tv series from the MACs? I know one of the scenes of the Monster in Do You Remember, Love? would imply that there was a kind of 'enhanced artillery', but is there any proof from Robotech itself? I know the Spartas Hovertank uses guided artillery shells for the non-Officer's model (reference Southern Cross and Danger Zone especially).

[Jefffar]

I'm not saying it's backed up by the series.

My idea is based on there being guided projectiles as small as 81 mm mortar. It seems prety silly to me not to slap a guidance system into something as roomy as a 406 mm canon.

[jedi078]

Well since the MAC is a walking battleship (406mm is 15.98 inches) and modren day battleships have all sorts of ways to guide shells to targets I would go ahead and use them.

I was never in Artillery (the biggest thing I used as arty was 40mm grenades from a MK 19) so I know there are more then what is listed here.

Fire control CPU
Calculations (I knew a guy whos MOS was to back up to the back up CPU)
Laser guided from UAV (you could have the operator in the MAC)
Laser guided from a man portable device (works for bombs so it should work for arty shells)

oh and here is a break down as to what skill rolls should/could be used

Fire Control CPU: CPU ops, Navigation, Weapon Sys
Calculations: Advanced Math at like -20%
Laser guided from UAV: any ideas?
Laser guided from a man portable device: any ideas?

[devillin]

Hey All,

I know this is probably opening a big old can of worms, and probably should be a separate thread. But, what were some of the errors that have been picked up in the various Robotech books that weren't listed on the official errata sheets? I know about the Lancer/Oberth thing, but what were some of the other ones that weren't so obvious unless you were looking for them?

[jedi078]

Devlllin,

sent you a PM (you might or might not know the website)

and check out the "house Rules" thread

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

But, what were some of the errors that have been picked up in the various Robotech books that weren't listed on the official errata sheets? I know about the Lancer/Oberth thing, but what were some of the other ones that weren't so obvious unless you were looking for them?

List of Flaws in Book 4: The Southern Cross

A 'little' thread I authored that catalogued the known errors in the Southern Cross book. Very informative.

[Cap'n Nick]

Anyone seen macross zero? There's a MAC in the final part. The arms are actually just arms that anchor the beast. The shells it fires are reactive warheads. Kaboomy nukes.

this means the MAC is actually a metal gear! nuclear-equipped walking battle tank!

[Zer0 Kay]

It's a typo, and a well-known one. I tend not to notice so much, as MAC-II units are usually NPC parties in my games. You could also say that the MAC-II's speed is in question as well, as there is an episode where Khyron sits astride one on the way to combat, and it easily keeps up with battle pods racing along. Certainly faster than 48kph, anyway.

Just slot it along with the Spartan, which even though it is an MDC vehicle, has an AR of 13. Go figure.

Just use the damage listed, or use the damage in the blurb of 2400. Are you intending on becoming a MAC-user?

It's as good a typo as the axe doing 5lbs of damage

[MDGiest]

Not that this really has anything to do with the main topic, but someone mentioned on here the possibility of fighting a MAC-II. I had one shoot at me, roll a nat 20 all 4 cannons...and I was in SAMAS power armor. And of course I didnt roll a nat 20 to dodge. I didnt even wait for the GM to roll damage, I just tossed my character sheet aside, opened up the Triax book, and made a pilot who used an X-2000.

[jedi078]

Well aside from the Nat 20 the MAC guns should get a penalty when firing at a small target unless of course the rounds loaded are High Explosixe Fragmentation.

[MDGiest]

Remember, a nat 20 hits...period, end of story. The only way to not get hit, is another nat 20. Its ok though, after he splattered me a 2 team mates in G10s smacked the crap out of it! No more nat 20s, but 3d6x10 from 2 guns adds up fast. lol

[Zer0 Kay]

Remember, a nat 20 hits...period, end of story. The only way to not get hit, is another nat 20. Its ok though, after he splattered me a 2 team mates in G10s smacked the crap out of it! No more nat 20s, but 3d6x10 from 2 guns adds up fast. lol

Hmm A G-10 needs to be anchored so shouldn't provide any negative modifiers for the MAC and those large solid round striking... should easily knock the GBs down.

[MDGiest]

Remember, a nat 20 hits...period, end of story. The only way to not get hit, is another nat 20. Its ok though, after he splattered me a 2 team mates in G10s smacked the crap out of it! No more nat 20s, but 3d6x10 from 2 guns adds up fast. lol

Hmm A G-10 needs to be anchored so shouldn't provide any negative modifiers for the MAC and those large solid round striking... should easily knock the GBs down.

What the heck are you talking about???

[Zer0 Kay]

Remember, a nat 20 hits...period, end of story. The only way to not get hit, is another nat 20. Its ok though, after he splattered me a 2 team mates in G10s smacked the crap out of it! No more nat 20s, but 3d6x10 from 2 guns adds up fast. lol

Hmm A G-10 needs to be anchored so shouldn't provide any negative modifiers for the MAC and those large solid round striking... should easily knock the GBs down.

What the heck are you talking about???

What do you mean what the heck am I talking about. You made it sound like it was easy for the GB's to take it out without getting damaged. The MACs shells are how big? If a shell hits even an anchored GB its I'd rule for the damn things to be knocked on their asses and loosing a couple actions. Besides what kind of an idiot only attacks with a MAC? Where the hell was its close in support?

[MDGiest]

Ok, sorry, the wording was a bit confusing for a minute. There were a half dozen Borgs on the ground around it along with one of those Iron Heart heavy tanks. Some (evil)merc unit that the GM ran us into...or we ran into, take your pick. I had been shooting up the tank and borgs with the help of our TW who was flying around in a helicopter armed with lots of mini-missiles. Not sure why the MAC II decided to shoot at me rather then pay attention to the 2 big guns...although it might have had something to do with the loss of 6 borgs in 3 melee rounds. Anyways, the GM rolled the nat 20 for the big hit on my SAMAS, it had Armor of Ithan...had is the operative word there, not that it made much difference to me.

[jedi078]

Ok, sorry, the wording was a bit confusing for a minute. There were a half dozen Borgs on the ground around it along with one of those Iron Heart heavy tanks. Some (evil)merc unit that the GM ran us into...or we ran into, take your pick. I had been shooting up the tank and borgs with the help of our TW who was flying around in a helicopter armed with lots of mini-missiles. Not sure why the MAC II decided to shoot at me rather then pay attention to the 2 big guns...although it might have had something to do with the loss of 6 borgs in 3 melee rounds. Anyways, the GM rolled the nat 20 for the big hit on my SAMAS, it had Armor of Ithan...had is the operative word there, not that it made much difference to me.

OK that makes sense.

[Lt. Holmes]

Still, why was the MAC all by itself? That's a mecha that needs to be a part of a balanced strike team, with other Destroids for close-in support, and maybe some Cyclones or VHTs for long-range sniping roles.

[MDGiest]

Still, why was the MAC all by itself? That's a mecha that needs to be a part of a balanced strike team, with other Destroids for close-in support, and maybe some Cyclones or VHTs for long-range sniping roles.

I repeat; "There were a half dozen Borgs on the ground around it along with one of those Iron Heart heavy tanks."

[Zer0 Kay]

Still, why was the MAC all by itself? That's a mecha that needs to be a part of a balanced strike team, with other Destroids for close-in support, and maybe some Cyclones or VHTs for long-range sniping roles.

I repeat; "There were a half dozen Borgs on the ground around it along with one of those Iron Heart heavy tanks."

I don't think he got that you meant that they were on the MAC's side.

[glitterboy2098]

First the cannon damage. The amount listed is incorrect in the megaverse. If those cannon did so little MDC they would have been worthless. Going by the The Coalition Navy book the damage per shell is 1D6X100 as is the same for the 16inch (406mm) guns on the old battleships and the new flagship. Which also means that all the secondary turrets on the SDF-1 has the new damage also.

Secondly, the conversion from Robotech to Rifts should not be that drastic. Using the Macross- 2 mecha, all of which were fusion powered, the older mecha should be convertible to nuclear power plants, with out lose of agility or transformation. If you put a VF-1 in battliod mode against a SAMAS old type the fight is actually a close one. Firepower, maneuverability and armor defense are close, it will be a pilot skill and dice roll fight.

If you plan to use the Zentraedi and Meltraedi ships in Rifts use the stats from Macross-2, the sizes are smaller and the firepower is the same.[/b]

Macross-II is a totally seperate setting, and it's not connected to robotech.
so just because the robotech mecha use protoculture, and Macross-II mecha are fusion powered, does not mean that you could switch a protoculture plant for a fusion one with no effect.

the macross-II mecha come from a different universe, with a different tech base, and they represent 100 years of technological development from any ccommon ancestor they had in universe . (since macross-II is a sequal to Macross, which became part of robotech here in america. also, remember that in macross, all mecha were fusion powered. protoculture was an ancient alien race, not a powersource.)


i will agree about the canon, though with one point.
the SDC stats for a 16inch gun in palladium come to around 1d6x10 md when directly converted, so there is no discrepancy. in RIFTS, the propellants and explosive shells are just much more powerful.

[Novastar]

I seem to remember that Macross II was supposed to take place in 2089, 80 years after the initial invasion of Zentran & Meltran (and the Macross II movie plays off the Macross: DYRL movie, more than the Macross TV series).

[Jefffar]

Macross II has no connection to Southern Cross or Invid Invasion. it is a completely seperate series, in a divergent universe from Robotech - but starting at the same point, the Macross series.

It should also be noted that Macross II is also divergent from the continuity that produced Macross 0, Macross Plus and Macross 7, though again they share the Macross centrepoint.

[R Ditto]

Wow, this thread is back up?
1D6x10 MD is still weak IMO.
A 406mm HE shell is roughly 2000 pounds IIRC, and even if just 1,000 pounds of that was HE, if it used basic explosives good for 5D6 SDC per pound, they you are looking at enough punch for a 5D6x10 MD blast...
I also think of how 406mm shells tend to leave 50ft wide blast craters in the ground.

Since it is likely that is is closer to 90% of that weight being HE, we are looking at enough explosive power to smear most mecha all over the place. Those type of shells were designed to take on ships with 1ft thick armored hulls, so even a nicely armored tank would be reduced to scrap in one hit.

[Drakenred®™©]

Wow, this thread is back up?
1D6x10 MD is still weak IMO.
A 406mm HE shell is roughly 2000 pounds IIRC, and even if just 1,000 pounds of that was HE, if it used basic explosives good for 5D6 SDC per pound, they you are looking at enough punch for a 5D6x10 MD blast...
I also think of how 406mm shells tend to leave 50ft wide blast craters in the ground.

Since it is likely that is is closer to 90% of that weight being HE, we are looking at enough explosive power to smear most mecha all over the place. Those type of shells were designed to take on ships with 1ft thick armored hulls, so even a nicely armored tank would be reduced to scrap in one hit.

I did a post a while back where I took real world weapons and upgraded them based on the assumption that a 5 round burst from a 55mm gun was roughly equivelent in energy transfer to a 15 round burst from the 30mm gun on the Avenger, let me see If I can find it back.

[Jefffar]

Interesting assumption, but I think a 55 mm round probably has more than 3 times the energy of a 30 mm round. I probably say at least 4, maybe 8 times.

[R Ditto]

A very rough estimate I did places a 55mm round as having a little over 6 times the effective mass/volume of a 30mm round...
this is a very rough estimate, doing a cheaply simple cubing of the numbers to find a very rough estimate of size increases...

Works fairly well when using comparison between rounds like 5.56mm round (3.5-4.1 grams) and 12.7mm round (44-48.2 grams), the effective size increase of the basic math matches fairly well with the increase of actual weights of said rounds when the 'size increase' is applied to the weight of a 5.56mm round.

[Jefffar]

That gives us some goods on the content of the shell, I think the 57 mm (nearest counter part to a 55 mm I can find) has a pretty nice muzzle velocity and extreme range.

[Drakenred®™©]

Actualy I would have to disagree aboutt the power to weight ratio

basicaly if you just scale up the current 30X173 round to 55X317.9 mm (and retain the same "caliber" in the barrel) yes you can expect to see some significant improvment in power, however I dont think this is realistic in that your also going to need a gun whos barrels are roughly 82% longer than that in the GU-11

(this is assuming that they are useing something simular to the MK258 Armor Piercing, Fin Stabilized, Discarding Sabot-Tracer Anti-Mine Projectile, Hydroballistic)(yes their realy is a 30mm round being deployed which is inteded to be used to shoot things underwater. Its the Navys idea)

Given that most of the more credible versions of an "exploded diagram" of the GU-11 seems to show that the rounds are closer to being 55mm pistol rounds than 55mm rifle rounds I went with the assumption that a 5 round burst is close to the equivelent of a 15-20 round burst from a GAU-8

[Jefffar]

What is the length of the 55mm rounds in the drawing? A one or two foot long projectile in a 20 foot long weapon isn't going to look very big.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

What is the length of the 55mm rounds in the drawing? A one or two foot long projectile in a 20 foot long weapon isn't going to look very big.

I dont know if there is drawing showing that. I know the uRRG lists the GU-11's ammo as APFSDS, so the penetrator would probably be 30-35mm at a guess.

[Drakenred®™©]

What is the length of the 55mm rounds in the drawing? A one or two foot long projectile in a 20 foot long weapon isn't going to look very big.

Im trying to find thoes files back, but the rounds looked to mr like they are roughly the same size ratios as a 45 apc wadcutter

[R Ditto]

It makes sense that mass is not the only factor, since muzzle velocity is another factor. A smaller faster moving round can hit just as hard as a larger round that doesn't go as fast.

Although, the barrels on the GU-11 are probably at least half the length of the gun pod (to make room for ammo feed system and ammo), and with basic tech for MDC materials and explosives, the rounds could have some hefty propellent that can get the rounds moving fast without tearing the gun barrels apart in a short amount of burst firing time.

[Jefffar]

What is the length of the 55mm rounds in the drawing? A one or two foot long projectile in a 20 foot long weapon isn't going to look very big.

Im trying to find thoes files back, but the rounds looked to mr like they are roughly the same size ratios as a 45 apc wadcutter

That sounds more like a grenade launcher or automatic mortar than a cannon. It seems very unlikely that, even with the APFSDS ammunition, that it would get sufficient velocity to have any armour piercing effect.

It would have a useful HE payload though,

[Drakenred®™©]

that depends on just how mutch of an upgrade in propelants happend with the introduction of Overtech. for all we know the primer of the GU-11 may pack more energy than the propelant in a 30X173 round

[Jefffar]

But it still makes for a very short, stubby round, not the best platform for an APFSDS as they are allegedly firing. Decent for a HE payload though.