Colony Ships: Specifically the SDF-3 and Ark Angel-class

[Treefrog]

I recently purchased and received the book Art of Robotech: The Shadow Chronicles, and according to the information on the SDF-3 and the Ark Angel-class Colony Fortress, both ships had bays for the express purpose of colonization.

I have 2 questions:
1) What exactly entails both ships having these in the first place?
2) Will we ever get a book with MDC stats for both ships in a future Robotech Sourcebook?

[ShadowLogan]

Re: #1
The Ark-Angel class is designed for colonization missions that is why it has those bays. It appears the UEEF is trying to duplicate the multi-nature of the SDF-1 to provide better protection to colonists based on experience with the Angel Class that have been retro-fitted into Neutron-S Missiles which require a separate ship(s) to escort them. That is the in-universe explanation.

As to why the SDF-3 has them I don't know, I think they might be a feature of the retro-fit and not original.

Re: #2
No one knows who's talking. It was planned at one time when the 2E RPG launched, but silently canceled/abandoned. Personally I wouldn't count on it any time soon as material currently is focused away from TSC in the RPG.

[Seto Kaiba]

I have 2 questions:
1) What exactly entails both ships having these in the first place?

The colony bays? Nobody outside of the Harmony Gold creative staff (perhaps only Tommy Yune himself) knows for certain what the actual design intent for the colony bays was... but, as the plot outline for the abandoned Shadow Chronicles Saga was evidently taking a LOT of pointers from Macross, the most likely explanation is that they were intended to be the same kind of city-inside-the-ship arrangement that the titular SDF-1 Macross famously had. (The early drafts of the Ark Angel were for a transformable ship with the colony bays in its legs, like the SDF-1's most visible city sections in the Macross: Do You Remember Love? movie. It would seem that they went to installing the bays on warships because they wanted a colony ship that could defend itself, which the old Angel-class wasn't able to do (or at least not effectively).

The colony bays seem to have been added to several of the UEEF's largest ships during the shadow technology retrofit circa 2043... including the SDF-3 Pioneer and Captain Vince Grant's ill-fated Tokugawa-class ship. The Ark Angel-class may have been the first ship designed with them from the ground up.

2) Will we ever get a book with MDC stats for both ships in a future Robotech Sourcebook?

Your guess is as good as mine... we got the SDF-4 and Icarus, but I think we probably missed out on stats for the SDF-3 and Ark Angel for the same reason we didn't get stats for the Super Shadow Fighter. They were plot-critical to future episodes of the "Shadow Saga" OVA that were announced around the time Shadow Chronicles (Part 1 of a planned 3-4) came out, but the continuation that would presumably have shed some light on the abilities of those ships and mecha was placed on indefinite hiatus only a few months after it was announced and now appears to be canceled. (Harmony Gold abandoned its trademarks on the title back in 2011.)

[Arnie100]

I wonder if we'll ever see any post-Shadow sourcebooks (it would be nice).

[drewkitty ~..~]

I wonder if we'll ever see any post-Shadow sourcebooks (it would be nice).

Doubt that will happen so long as there is not a sequel to the SC movie.

[Arnie100]

I wonder if we'll ever see any post-Shadow sourcebooks (it would be nice).

Doubt that will happen so long as there is not a sequel to the SC movie.

Probably why they're now focussing on eras prior to TNG.

[taalismn]

Depends on what qualifies as a 'colony bay'....it could simply be a large multi-use space that could be quickly reconfigured to carry troops, vehicles, additional supplies, hospital space, pre-fab bases, resource development gear, shuttle and fighter stowage...all things useful for a long range warship to have in deep space. Having the ability to set up staging facilities or even establish a material-harvesting operation closer to a war front could lessen the length of supply lines and reduce the logistical burden.

[ShadowLogan]

But then why call it a colony bay at all, wouldn't multi-purpose bay be better? Or cargo hold? or Hangar bay. Colony Bay implies a specific function (transporting colonists and/or their equipment) that may not be ideal for other roles.

[taalismn]

But then why call it a colony bay at all, wouldn't multi-purpose bay be better? Or cargo hold? or Hangar bay. Colony Bay implies a specific function (transporting colonists and/or their equipment) that may not be ideal for other roles.

Raises the question again: what goes into a 'colony bay' to specifically make it useful only for colonial efforts? Full life support? Multiple living quarters too comfy for troops? Dedicated hydroponics and livestock cryo-stalls? Transporting colonists and heavy equipment appropriate for a colony isn't all that different from, say, moving a unit of combat engineers and their equipment. Even if the entire bay is a modular detachable settlement building with integral powerplant, that same modularity could be repurposed to military applications.
I suspect it's just a name, rather than any real built-in specific function. They don't call/utilize them as dedicated hangar bays because they want to spread available fighter squadrons to other more agile vessels that can be used more flexibly tactically(you don't always want to bring in the lumbering battleship to do recon or interdiction), so the bays are left as situation-specific 'growth space'.

[ShadowLogan]

That still doesn't explain why its called a "colony bay" if you really are using it for other functions.

And the Colony Bay might have equipment and requirements that aren't suitable for combat engineers.

The Bay could contain terraforming equipment that has little value other than in terraforming or as a WMD I suspect. Weather that equipment is easily removed is anyone's guess. Terraforming might be an option for the UEEF as "earth clones" might be harder to come by (especially w/o natives who might object), but those than can be made into "earth clones" are probably more abundant.

The ships are huge each with crews of under 10,000, but have a capacity for 120k or 750k. That is a lot of people, and you probably want them busy on the trip if its going to be a long one.

[Seto Kaiba]

I suspect it's just a name, rather than any real built-in specific function. They don't call/utilize them as dedicated hangar bays because they want to spread available fighter squadrons to other more agile vessels that can be used more flexibly tactically(you don't always want to bring in the lumbering battleship to do recon or interdiction), so the bays are left as situation-specific 'growth space'.

As I noted in a previous post, the inspiration for the "colony bays" is immediately evident from the earliest piece of concept art that makes direct reference to them. Their obvious design intent was to be the return of the "city inside a warship" that was vital to the Macross Saga's plot... and the plot outline of the so-called Shadow Saga clearly bears that out. We'll never know for 100% sure, as the available evidence strongly suggests that Shadow Rising was canceled at some point between 2008 and 2011, but the "city inside a warship" approach is far and away the most likely explanation.

(The whole colony ship/bay thing is an obvious contrivance meant solely to justify the Ark Angel and Macross-esque plot, considering the glaring contradictions and obvious logical problems with their backstory. The colony bays are essentially decorative on the SDF-3 and Tokugawa.)

The ships are huge each with crews of under 10,000, but have a capacity for 120k or 750k. That is a lot of people, and you probably want them busy on the trip if its going to be a long one.

That's a maximum capacity (and a dubious-bordering-on-impossible one at that)... it's rather unlikely they would be ferrying that many people. If the dialog in the New Generation is taken at face value you could get the entire population of Earth into just a few of these ships too...

[eliakon]

I doubt that you are going to get quite that many people into one....
But it shouldn't be too hard to get forty or fifty thousand people into one. The SDF-1 carried about that many for instance.

It might be possible that they have used some sort of cryo-stasis (or other 'long sleep' technology such as nano-stasis, or temporal stasis or what ever) to bring colonists along in a dormant state. If they did that, then the bay may be full of stasis gear which would not be of much use on a warship other than putting colonists under, and waking them up on arrival....

[ShadowLogan]

That's a maximum capacity (and a dubious-bordering-on-impossible one at that)... it's rather unlikely they would be ferrying that many people. If the dialog in the New Generation is taken at face value you could get the entire population of Earth into just a few of these ships too...

Yes it is the maximum capacity. Do we know what happened to all the colonists that might have gone off with the UEEF on the Angel-Class before colonization was halted until the Ark-Angel class was ready? Or what the population breakdown is on the people seen evacuating in Ep61/LLA-OVA?

[glitterboy2098]

i would assume that the fact that the colony bays are specifically called "Bays" and have exterior hatches, that they would serve as a general space that could be adapted to different uses. if you need a "city-in-the-ship" you can configure them with such. if you just need big cargo areas for delivering goods to/from a planet based colony? you can configure them for that too. need to dock a large number of shuttlecraft? you could probably fit them out to do that too.

or, since the ships that have them (like the SDF-3, Refit Tokugawa's, and the Ark Angle) have what look like several such bays.. all of the above. like say one set up as passenger space "city-in-space style, and another two set up as a massive cargo bay for supplies for the colonists, and the last set up with larger shuttles to land said colonists at their destination.

[Seto Kaiba]

Do we know what happened to all the colonists that might have gone off with the UEEF on the Angel-Class before colonization was halted until the Ark-Angel class was ready?

Do we know that any Angel-class ships were available prior to the Invid invasion? It's dubious at best, considering the write-up they were given in AotSC suggests that their development didn't even start until after the 2nd Robotech War. That doesn't leave UEEF engineers much time to design, build, and launch a fleet of colony ships to evacuate Earth. The only "civilians" out in space were the children of the UEEF soldiers and one token stowaway (Minmay), so where would these hypothetical colonists come from?

You could argue the 2040's concessions to colonists were a hopeful gesture by the UEEF eyeing the liberation of Earth...

Or what the population breakdown is on the people seen evacuating in Ep61/LLA-OVA?

They cite "millions" in the New Generation... for a total planetary population. Not tens of millions, hundreds of millions, or billions... just millions.

[eliakon]

Is there anywhere any statement that there were NOT colonists or civilians sent out previously?
Example, just because the Angel was (possibly) the first dedicated colony ship built by the humans....that does not rule out the sending out of improvised colony ships (such as converted Zentradi ships).
Since in SC the Master's were first mistaken for 'space pirates' that would seem to indicate that there are enough exo-solar people and ships to have a piracy problem....

[Riftmaker]

What books have colony ships in them?

[Seto Kaiba]

Is there anywhere any statement that there were NOT colonists or civilians sent out previously?
Example, just because the Angel was (possibly) the first dedicated colony ship built by the humans....that does not rule out the sending out of improvised colony ships (such as converted Zentradi ships).

Apart from the (later-militarized) colonies on the Moon and the military bases at Mars and Jupiter, there is no mention of or allusion to any colonization effort prior to the directive that led to the Angel-class being built after the 2nd Robotech War[sup]1[/sup]... which are described as humanity's early (but aborted) colonization efforts.

Since in SC the Master's were first mistaken for 'space pirates' that would seem to indicate that there are enough exo-solar people and ships to have a piracy problem....

That assumes that the space pirates are truly human... they've done the "human alien" thing a few times already (Zentradi, Tirolians, Praxians).

What books have colony ships in them?

Art books? Only The Art of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles.

RPG books? None, AFAIK... I don't believe they've covered either of the colony ship classes yet, or either of the pre-existing ships that got converted with "colony bays" (the SDF-3 and Vince Grant's Tokugawa).



1. Just to be completely clear on my reasoning here, the text doesn't identify a specific date in association with this... the entry only identifies the directive as having been handed down after Earth and humanity had weathered the devastation of previous Robotech Wars (plural). The aftermath of the 2nd Robotech War is the only possibility, because construction was aborted and those ships were mothballed and converted into neutron-s missiles before the 3rd Robotech War and the unnumbered war with the Invid Regent ended and the de facto 4th Robotech War began.

[eliakon]

Is there anywhere any statement that there were NOT colonists or civilians sent out previously?
Example, just because the Angel was (possibly) the first dedicated colony ship built by the humans....that does not rule out the sending out of improvised colony ships (such as converted Zentradi ships).

Apart from the (later-militarized) colonies on the Moon and the military bases at Mars and Jupiter, there is no mention of or allusion to any colonization effort prior to the directive that led to the Angel-class being built after the 2nd Robotech War[sup]1[/sup]... which are described as humanity's early (but aborted) colonization efforts.

So, no there isn't anything at all in canon that says it did not, or can not have happened.

Since in SC the Master's were first mistaken for 'space pirates' that would seem to indicate that there are enough exo-solar people and ships to have a piracy problem....

That assumes that the space pirates are truly human... they've done the "human alien" thing a few times already (Zentradi, Tirolians, Praxians).

Since at this time the only race known was the Zentradi....
...either they thought they were Humans, thought they were Zentradi, or had been out in wider space enough to know there were others....

[Seto Kaiba]

So, no there isn't anything at all in canon that says it did not, or can not have happened.

More like it contradicts the idea that the Angel-class construction was the initial (canceled) colonization effort and that there is absolutely zero evidence to support the idea. It runs into the same problem as the rest... if they didn't start pondering colonization outside the solar system until after the 2nd Robotech War, where are they going to get colonists when all the civilians are now stuck behind enemy lines? Earth was basically cut off from the rest of the galaxy from January 2029 to mid-July 2044.

Since at this time the only race known was the Zentradi....
...either they thought they were Humans, thought they were Zentradi, or had been out in wider space enough to know there were others....

Depending on whose Sentinels timeline you look at, by that point humanity had already made contact with several other alien species... though Leonard's ignorance of the Robotech Masters is a fairly significant plot hole in the show, exacerbated further in the aborted Sentinels arc.

[eliakon]

So, no there isn't anything at all in canon that says it did not, or can not have happened.

More like it contradicts the idea that the Angel-class construction was the initial (canceled) colonization effort and that there is absolutely zero evidence to support the idea. It runs into the same problem as the rest... if they didn't start pondering colonization outside the solar system until after the 2nd Robotech War, where are they going to get colonists when all the civilians are now stuck behind enemy lines? Earth was basically cut off from the rest of the galaxy from January 2029 to mid-July 2044.

Only if you start with the premise that colonization can only occur with specialized colony ships.
But entailing a conclusion in a premise is a logical fallacy.
I am looking for a specific in universe statement that they did not start pondering colonization at all before after the 2nd robotech war.
A specific statement of this. Not a 'well I think that it was this way' not a "I want it that way" not even a "well this purpose built ship was not built then" but a specific "no there was no colonization at all"
Because other wise it is simply starting at a predetermined conclusion (no colonization) and then going backwards to say that because the conclusion is true, it must be true....

Since at this time the only race known was the Zentradi....
...either they thought they were Humans, thought they were Zentradi, or had been out in wider space enough to know there were others....

Depending on whose Sentinels timeline you look at, by that point humanity had already made contact with several other alien species... though Leonard's ignorance of the Robotech Masters is a fairly significant plot hole in the show, exacerbated further in the aborted Sentinels arc.

Humanity, or Earth?
Remember
1) The REF is not ASC
2) Is the timeline you are referring to canon, because non-canon timelines have less than no relevance to this discussion.

ESPECIALLY since if you are claiming that they had already been fighting the masters and Invid and meeting the Sentinals...
...that could easily be the 'second Robotech war' and then ships being built now would be 'after' that (after the start, not the end but still)

[Seto Kaiba]

Only if you start with the premise that colonization can only occur with specialized colony ships.
But entailing a conclusion in a premise is a logical fallacy.

... ironically, your entire position is a melange of fallacies. Specifically, it's:

• An Argument from Silence, as you're contending that your premise MUST be true despite the absence of any affirmative evidence purely because there is not an explicit statement specifically identifying your particular premise as false.
• A Onus Probandi fallacy, a subclass of Argument from Ignorance, as you're trying to shift the burden of proof for your unproven claim to the questioner.
• A Red Herring fallacy, specifically one of Wishful Thinking, as you're arguing against the evidence in favor of your premise.
• A Straw Man fallacy, as the statement above is not drawn from my position at all... and, in point of fact, is actually in direct opposition to points I've made previously.

Now, to briefly address your flagrant misrepresentation of my position, I would call attention to my first reply to this topic... in which I specifically note that the UEEF had retrofitted several different warships to carry colonists (but that they did not do so until ~2043).

I am looking for a specific in universe statement that they did not start pondering colonization at all before after the 2nd robotech war.

The previously mentioned statement in AotSC should fulfill that requirement... as it indicates that colonizing planets outside our own solar system is not something humanity was pursuing until after Earth had been devastated by Robotech Wars (plural). If they were not actively pursuing extrasolar space colonization until after Earth had weathered at least two Robotech Wars, your premise doesn't work if the following canon details remain true:

• The UEEF did not knowingly take any civilians into deep space with them when they left Earth.
• There is only one known civilian stowaway... Minmei. (Kyle doesn't count because he enlisted under a false name, and while Janice did stow away she is technically military espionage equipment rather than a civilian.)
• The "New Generation" of UEEF soldiers who returned to liberate Earth attest that they were born out in space on a Robotech ship (no mention of colonies).
• Between the start of the 2nd Robotech War in January 2029 and the end of the 3rd Robotech War in July 2044, the UEEF was not able to draw on Earth's population for colonists due to the invasions and subsequent occupation. (Extraction of military assets was done under enemy fire.)
• The ASC was working with extremely limited resources due to the resource demands of the UEEF, and would be unlikely to spare ships while they were unable to defend the Earth from "a flock of ducklings".
• The UEEF was also working with limited resources due to their ongoing war with the Invid Regent, which rendered their plans for space colonization too dangerous to pursue.
• The UEEF did not start converting military warships to support colonists until the shadow tech retrofit approximately 1 year prior to the Battle of Reflex Point.

Edit: Essentially, if you go back in time far enough that the colonization directive hasn't been handed down and the UEEF isn't gobbling up all of the resources, you're back to right around the end of the Macross Saga when Earth had almost no ships.

[eliakon]

Only if you start with the premise that colonization can only occur with specialized colony ships.
But entailing a conclusion in a premise is a logical fallacy.

... ironically, your entire position is a melange of fallacies. Specifically, it's:

My "position" is that I can ask a question. Unless you are seriously claiming that questions are not allowed your statement is false.
I have not yet made an affirmative premise. Though I have offered that there might be one. Since the only thing that can negate my speculation (NOT an affirmative premise as I have not said that it IS true, just that there is a possibility that could be true) Is evidence falsifying the position....

An Argument from Silence, as you're contending that your premise MUST be true despite the absence of any affirmative evidence purely because there is not an explicit statement specifically identifying your particular premise as false.

Incorrect. I am not making a premise (yet)
I am asking a question. Questions then get answered.
Questions though can be legitimate.
Which is why it is insulting, and false to try and paint a question as an affermitive premise
It is a simple question. Yes or No is there an explicit statement that there was no colony operations prior to 2043.

A Onus Probandi fallacy, a subclass of Argument from Ignorance, as you're trying to shift the burden of proof for your unproven claim to the questioner.

You do not seem to undetstand what a question is.
There is no 'burden of proof' for a question. A question is someone asking if there IS ANY PROOF AT ALL on a subject. THEN once the answers have been provided (and cited) then the next question can be ask.
It is a simple question. Yes or No is there an explicit statement that there was no colony operations prior to 2043.

A Red Herring fallacy, specifically one of Wishful Thinking, as you're arguing against the evidence in favor of your premise.

A red herring would require me to be arguing something that isn't there
Simply making up fallacies does not change the basic facts at work here.
I ask for any evidence that colony ships were NOT POSSIBLE.
No one has provided that.

It is a simple question. Yes or No is there an explicit statement that there was no colony operations prior to 2043.

A Straw Man fallacy, as the statement above is not drawn from my position at all... and, in point of fact, is actually in direct opposition to points I've made previously.

Again simply insulting me does not prove your case.
You are now in the realm of making up insults to try and disprove a logical case that you have failed on.

It is a simple question. Yes or No is there an explicit statement that there was no colony operations prior to 2043.

Now, to briefly address your flagrant misrepresentation of my position, I would call attention to my first reply to this topic... in which I specifically note that the UEEF had retrofitted several different warships to carry colonists (but that they did not do so until ~2043).

Colony bays yes.
Again not what was asked. Retrofitting vehicles to have colony bays is NOT proof that those were the first colony ships.
You are avoiding the question.
It is a simple question. Yes or No is there an explicit statement that there was no colony operations prior to 2043.

I am looking for a specific in universe statement that they did not start pondering colonization at all before after the 2nd robotech war.

The previously mentioned statement in AotSC should fulfill that requirement... as it indicates that colonizing planets outside our own solar system is not something humanity was pursuing until after Earth had been devastated by Robotech Wars (plural).

That is not what it says. That is what YOU WANT it to say.
Again. I want an explicit statement of fact. Not a personal opinion that relies on interpreting nebulous data.
You know, that logic thing?

It is a simple question. Yes or No is there an explicit statement that there was no colony operations prior to 2043.

If they were not actively pursuing extrasolar space colonization until after Earth had weathered at least two Robotech Wars, your premise doesn't work if the following canon details remain true:

okay now your getting closer to acutally answering the question.

The UEEF did not knowingly take any civilians into deep space with them when they left Earth.

Source?

There is only one known civilian stowaway... Minmei. (Kyle doesn't count because he enlisted under a false name, and while Janice did stow away she is technically military espionage equipment rather than a civilian.)

Source?

The "New Generation" of UEEF soldiers who returned to liberate Earth attest that they were born out in space on a Robotech ship (no mention of colonies).

Exact source

Between the start of the 2nd Robotech War in January 2029 and the end of the 3rd Robotech War in July 2044, the UEEF was not able to draw on Earth's population for colonists due to the invasions and subsequent occupation. (Extraction of military assets was done under enemy fire.)

Not relevant, since the question is about possible collonizations BEFORE the end of the masters war. (this is though a good example of a red herring)

The ASC was working with extremely limited resources due to the resource demands of the UEEF, and would be unlikely to spare ships while they were unable to defend the Earth from "a flock of ducklings".

Again red herring, as it attempts to answer a question with proof that does not apply to the ask question.

The UEEF was also working with limited resources due to their ongoing war with the Invid Regent, which rendered their plans for space colonization too dangerous to pursue.

Again not relevant to my question

The UEEF did not start converting military warships to support colonists until the shadow tech retrofit approximately 1 year prior to the Battle of Reflex Point.

Converting human ships yes. Again not germane to the actual question asked.

Edit: Essentially, if you go back in time far enough that the colonization directive hasn't been handed down and the UEEF isn't gobbling up all of the resources, you're back to right around the end of the Macross Saga when Earth had almost no ships.

Which is exactly when I was asking about wasn't it?
Because my exact question was about the possibility of having used ZENDRADI ships for the colony.
They had a lot of those lying around....and then they didn't....
...hmmm wonder what happened to them....
Or do you have an official, canon, answer to that. Not fanon, not headcanon, official one.

If you would like to do the logic thing I would be happy to write my questions and incidental statements up in a full logical format and we can go from there.
Otherwise I suggest you reign in the insulting attempts to derail questioning with false claims that it is fallacious.

[Seto Kaiba]

I ask for any evidence that colony ships were NOT POSSIBLE.
No one has provided that.

Really? Because I've pointed out that, canonically, humanity did not even consider space colonization until after the 2nd Robotech War, at which point there were no people available to become colonists, and prior to that there are no ships available to carry colonists. You can't have launch colony ships if you have neither colonists nor ships. That would tend to make it "not possible".

Colony bays yes.
Again not what was asked. Retrofitting vehicles to have colony bays is NOT proof that those were the first colony ships.
You are avoiding the question.

It's rather disingenuous to claim that I'm "avoiding the question" when what you quoted was, in fact, me calling you on your misrepresentation of the content of my previous posts in which you claimed that I asserted that colonization is only possible with specialized colony ships.

As it so happens, this is the SECOND time in a row you've claimed that I said something that I actually didn't. The earliest colony ship in canon is the Angel-class, though their construction was halted and they were placed in storage before being converted into delivery systems for weapons of mass destruction. I noted only that it was a canon fact that a specialist ship was not strictly necessary, as evidenced by the colony bays that were added to a small number of UEEF ships circa 2043. The Angel-class had already been mothballed at this point.

That is not what it says. That is what YOU WANT it to say.

No, that is what it says... that the directive to repopulate the human race in the cosmos came after there had been Robotech WARS, as in MORE THAN ONE, and that the Angel-class ships were their early effort toward that goal (though one that went unfulfilled).

[*] The UEEF did not knowingly take any civilians into deep space with them when they left Earth.

Source?

Quite literally every version of the Sentinels arc, all of which depicted the UEEF Pioneer Mission as an entirely military operation... the series actually describes it as being a preemptive strike operation. Even the RPG doesn't depict the UEEF as having a civilian contingent beyond the children of soldiers (and goes so far as to indicate the military is pretty much the only career field for people born in space). They eventually pick up ambassadors from various alien races (the titular Sentinels) but they make it emphatically clear that Minmei is the only civilian, and she most definitely not invited. (The very act of stowing away almost kills her, when her launch runs low on air while it gets close enough to the SDF-3 to be caught in its fold effect. Janice Em does the flying, though she was designed by Dr. Lang to spy on the UEDF for the Expeditionary Forces. Kyle comes along much later, disguised as a member of Ghost squadron and gets killed by T.R. Edwards.)

[*] The "New Generation" of UEEF soldiers who returned to liberate Earth attest that they were born out in space on a Robotech ship (no mention of colonies).

Exact source

That's actually one of the very first lines of character-delivered dialog in the New Generation... by one of the crew of the Horizont that Scott was aboard (the one with the purple bowl cut, IIRC). He mentions they've never been to the Earth, and were all born out in deep space "on a Robotech ship".

[*] Between the start of the 2nd Robotech War in January 2029 and the end of the 3rd Robotech War in July 2044, the UEEF was not able to draw on Earth's population for colonists due to the invasions and subsequent occupation. (Extraction of military assets was done under enemy fire.)

Not relevant, since the question is about possible collonizations BEFORE the end of the masters war. (this is though a good example of a red herring)

[*] The ASC was working with extremely limited resources due to the resource demands of the UEEF, and would be unlikely to spare ships while they were unable to defend the Earth from "a flock of ducklings".

Again red herring, as it attempts to answer a question with proof that does not apply to the ask question.

[*] The UEEF was also working with limited resources due to their ongoing war with the Invid Regent, which rendered their plans for space colonization too dangerous to pursue.

Again not relevant to my question

No, these are not red herrings... they are relevant pieces of factual evidence that offer additional context to the official canon's contention that they didn't start working on colonizing worlds outside of our solar system until after the 2nd Robotech War.

The resources simply weren't there. Between 2014 and 2022, the build-up for the UEEF was consuming so much of Earth's limited resources that Commander Leonard contended that the UEDF would not even be equal to the task of defending the planet from juvenile waterfowl. Even in the RPG, they contend that the ASC was working with terribly limited resources and were building their ships around salvaged technology and their mecha to a lower standard of technology than the UEEF's. Before the end of the Masters' war they didn't have the resources to spare to launch a colony mission... that is LITERALLY the reason given for why the Angel-class was mothballed.

[*] The UEEF did not start converting military warships to support colonists until the shadow tech retrofit approximately 1 year prior to the Battle of Reflex Point.[/list]

Converting human ships yes. Again not germane to the actual question asked.

Actually it's quite relevant... it shows that the UEEF was not willing to compromise their warships by adding space for civilians except on a few of the largest and deadliest warships they had, and that they didn't feel comfortable doing it until very late in the 3rd Robotech War.

Because my exact question was about the possibility of having used ZENDRADI ships for the colony.
They had a lot of those lying around....and then they didn't....
...hmmm wonder what happened to them....

Where is it established that they had large numbers of operable Zentradi ships lying around?

Nowhere in canon that I can find... at least, not for Robotech. We only ever see a handful of Zentradi ships in operable condition in the aftermath of the 1st Robotech War in Robotech, all of which are presented as being military ships after the war. The RPG contends that the working ships were rolled into the UEEF fleet as warships, and wrecked ships were pillaged for their vital systems so Tristar-class warships could be built around them.

If we were talking Macross... it would be a very different story. I would, instead, be telling you that the Earth Unification Government DID use Zentradi ships for emigrant fleets... both as emigrant ships for the short-range missions (less than 100ly) and as warships for long-distance emigrant fleet escort details and emigrant planet Zentradi Marine garrisons in the Milky Way and neighboring dwarf galaxies like the ones seen on Galia IV and Al Shahal. Of course, the UN Government ended the First Space War sitting on a hundred operable Zentradi ships, which grew by leaps and bounds thanks to defectors and the capture of over two dozen factory satellites.

[eliakon]

You have not "pointed out that it was not considered"
You have simply stated that in your personal opinion it was not considered.
There is a difference.

Lack of evidence is not evidence of a lack
With out an EXPLICIT statement that there was no colonies then yeah, claiming that there can not be any colonies is making an unsupported affirmative statement.

I will note that you STILL have not provided any statements, or been willing to cite your sources for your claims. Which frankly makes those claims dubious in the extreme

I ask because I have not seen ANY SUCH STATEMENTS.

It is easy to claim there were no zentradi ships. But that is an affermitive claim and needs evidence

It is easy to claim that the 2014 Gloval Initiative referenced by Lancer in the comics does not actually mean that they were considering colonies in 2014. But that is an affirmatives claim and needs evidence.

It is easy to claim that there was no consideration AT ALL of colonies before 2043. But again that is an affirmative claim and needs evidence.

You seem to have this 'burden of proof' thing backwards. When someone asks a question, and you make an affirmative statement on the question it is YOUR BURDEN to support your statements. Not theirs to disprove them.

I find it most interesting that you choose to ignore the question, and instead try to dance around the subject with unsupported statements

Why not actually answer the question. Where, explicitly does it say that there were no colonies. What is the source for this claim?

<edit> My quote for lancer is from Invasion issue 2, page 2. Which while it is said in 2038 specifically references an initiative from 24 years prior.

[Seto Kaiba]

You have not "pointed out that it was not considered"
You have simply stated that in your personal opinion it was not considered.
There is a difference.

Yes, and the difference is that I HAVE pointed out that there is a clear statement that the directive to repopulate humanity outside of the Sol system was not given until after the 2nd Robotech War. You have simply attempted to deny evidence because it does not fit your preconceived conclusion. You're arguing against the evidence, and trying to shift burden of proof.

Lack of evidence is not evidence of a lack

What I have is evidence of absence... what YOU have is a profound absence of evidence.

All evidence from canon suggests that the means to promote a program of interstellar colonization were not available at any point in time between the end of the 1st Robotech War and the end of the 3rd Robotech War. The motive materialized too late to do anybody any good, being that it came after Earth had been devastated by multiple Robotech Wars. The opportunity never materialized, being that we're told military build-ups monopolized resources and then Earth became an occupied territory. In the absence of the means, motive, opportunity, and evidence, one has to conclude that the deed simply wasn't done.

So far, you've made the following assertions and offered no corroborative evidence of any kind:

• That there is a high probability that interstellar colony missions took place BEFORE the point we're told that colonization efforts actually kicked off and development of colony ships began.
• That there were ample, fully operational Zentradi warships available in UEDF/UEEF hands DESPITE the fact that only one is ever seen in the series and only a half-dozen or so in the comics, all of which allegedly went with the UEEF.
• That there sufficient resources available for the military to support a colonization operation, IN DIRECT CONTRADICTION to the explicitly-established fact that UEEF called off the plans for space colonization because they didn't have the resources to protect a colony ship.

Could you maybe provide some supporting evidence for your assertions so they could be given serious consideration? Right now all I've got is you saying one thing and Harmony Gold almost the polar opposite. I'm open to the presentation of evidence, but you are not presenting any thus far.

With out an EXPLICIT statement that there was no colonies then yeah, claiming that there can not be any colonies is making an unsupported affirmative statement.

You have it backwards... in the complete and utter absence of any evidence that any colony missions were ever launched, let alone any colonies actually established outside the solar system, to contend that they exist you have to have some evidence that they do actually exist. We've never seen a colony depicted (because the whole colonies thing was crowbarred in in RTSC solely to justify a city section in the Ark Angel), no character has ever mentioned visiting a colony or even named a colony in conversation, and no character has ever been identified as coming from a colony. The very first episode of the New Generation has the soldiers from the 21st Mars Division self-identify as having been born aboard a starship in deep space.

In the complete and utter absence of a thing's existence, and with a fair amount of evidence for its non-existence, the safest, most logical conclusion is that it does not exist. This tack you're taking here is like contending unicorns exist until such time as someone gets a sworn affidavit from Mother Nature herself that they don't.

I will note that you STILL have not provided any statements, or been willing to cite your sources for your claims. Which frankly makes those claims dubious in the extreme

That is your third serious attempt to misrepresent the substance of my statements... I'm trying to be patient with you, but if you're determined to keep doing this I really will have to report it as flame-bait, and I'd really prefer we had a civil discussion instead.

It is easy to claim there were no zentradi ships. But that is an affermitive claim and needs evidence

It would be very hard to claim there were NO Zentradi ships, because of the evidence of the series... which is why I didn't make any such claim, you're putting words in my mouth again. What I DID say is that there are very few Zentradi ships shown to be left after the 1st Robotech War, and that they are shown to still be in military hands in the time period you're talking about. You're asserting that there were large numbers of these ships in functional condition that could be repurposed... but there's no evidence that there were, and it would go against common sense for the UEEF to hand over battleships at least as powerful as the SDF-3 when they're gearing up for a preemptive strike against what they believe is the most technologically advanced and heavily defended world the galaxy (or universe?) has to offer.

It is easy to claim that the 2014 Gloval Initiative referenced by Lancer in the comics does not actually mean that they were considering colonies in 2014. But that is an affirmatives claim and needs evidence.

That's actually a funny contradiction... because Gloval never mentions colonization in Robotech, he says the SDF-2 is for their planned preemptive strike against the homeworld of the Robotech Masters, which is the same line used in Sentinels.

Mind you, there's a fairly significant difference between exploring space with an eye towards future colonization and actually setting up colonies... the UEEF is described as doing the former, not the latter.

You seem to have this 'burden of proof' thing backwards. When someone asks a question, and you make an affirmative statement on the question it is YOUR BURDEN to support your statements. Not theirs to disprove them.

As the old wisdom has it, "the burden of proof lies with the person who lays charges". You're contending that these things exist, so it's down to you to provide proof that they do... whereas I have presented evidence that they do not based on the unavailability of logistical support and personnel.

So, I invite you to please tell me... what canon source explicitly states that there are interstellar colonies? Title and time index or title and page number, please. Hell, I'll handicap it for you... what canon source explicitly states that a colony mission was launched? If you can give me an explicit, unambiguous, and canon statement that a colony mission was launched I will cheerfully concede the argument... if not, then you have nothing to go on except reflex denial.

[eliakon]

You have not "pointed out that it was not considered"
You have simply stated that in your personal opinion it was not considered.
There is a difference.

Yes, and the difference is that I HAVE pointed out that there is a clear statement that the directive to repopulate humanity outside of the Sol system was not given until after the 2nd Robotech War. You have simply attempted to deny evidence because it does not fit your preconceived conclusion. You're arguing against the evidence, and trying to shift burden of proof.

2014 is not after the second robotech war.
and no you have not provided any evidence other than the fact that the Angel Class was laid down after 'robotech wars'
Which doesn't even say which wars (malcontent uprising? Zentradi suppression when they captured the various factories? WHICH WARS?)

Lack of evidence is not evidence of a lack

What I have is evidence of absence... what YOU have is a profound absence of evidence.

You mean other than the explicit statement that they had a colony initiative in 2014 you mean?

All evidence from canon suggests that the means to promote a program of interstellar colonization were not available at any point in time between the end of the 1st Robotech War and the end of the 3rd Robotech War. The motive materialized too late to do anybody any good, being that it came after Earth had been devastated by multiple Robotech Wars. The opportunity never materialized, being that we're told military build-ups monopolized resources and then Earth became an occupied territory. In the absence of the means, motive, opportunity, and evidence, one has to conclude that the deed simply wasn't done.

again your making your personal assertions
the motive was there as far back as 2014.
We do not know what resources they had, or what happened to the working zentradi ships, or if there were colony ships before the Angel Class or anything.

So far, you've made the following assertions and offered no corroborative evidence of any kind:

• That there is a high probability that interstellar colony missions took place BEFORE the point we're told that colonization efforts actually kicked off and development of colony ships began.

2014 is when the Gloval Initiative was dated.

That there were ample, fully operational Zentradi warships available in UEDF/UEEF hands DESPITE the fact that only one is ever seen in the series and only a half-dozen or so in the comics, all of which allegedly went with the UEEF.

we saw 9 being used in the comics yes...
but we literally do not know what happened to all the ships on /guarding the factory satalites, nor what happened to all the ships in Breetai's fleet.
Your simply claiming that they all disappeared....with out providing any sources for that.

That there sufficient resources available for the military to support a colonization operation, IN DIRECT CONTRADICTION to the explicitly-established fact that UEEF called off the plans for space colonization because they didn't have the resources to protect a colony ship.

Incorrect. They pulled the Angel class from production. They did not 'call off the plans' unless you have a citation for that claim

Could you maybe provide some supporting evidence for your assertions so they could be given serious consideration? Right now all I've got is you saying one thing and Harmony Gold almost the polar opposite. I'm open to the presentation of evidence, but you are not presenting any thus far.

You mean like the gloval initiative of 2014?
Or the statement that the invid threaten "our colonies on the moon, mars, and the rest of the universe?"
Or the question of where all the missing zentrdi ships went?
Its not that HG is saying something. It is that you, personally, are saying you do not want there to be colonies, and then trying to pass that claim off as what is said by the canon.

With out an EXPLICIT statement that there was no colonies then yeah, claiming that there can not be any colonies is making an unsupported affirmative statement.

You have it backwards... in the complete and utter absence of any evidence that any colony missions were ever launched, let alone any colonies actually established outside the solar system, to contend that they exist you have to have some evidence that they do actually exist. We've never seen a colony depicted (because the whole colonies thing was crowbarred in in RTSC solely to justify a city section in the Ark Angel), no character has ever mentioned visiting a colony or even named a colony in conversation, and no character has ever been identified as coming from a colony. The very first episode of the New Generation has the soldiers from the 21st Mars Division self-identify as having been born aboard a starship in deep space.

Noooo I have it correct
You are making a claim. Your claim is that the 2014 Gloval Initiative for space (which is said to include colonization) did not happen
You are stating that the statement in about 'our colonies' doesn't actually mean colonies
And that simply because no one mentions them that they don't exist.....by that logic since no one mentioned the USA or France in the Macross Saga they don't exist either....

In the complete and utter absence of a thing's existence, and with a fair amount of evidence for its non-existence, the safest, most logical conclusion is that it does not exist. This tack you're taking here is like contending unicorns exist until such time as someone gets a sworn affidavit from Mother Nature herself that they don't.

Unless of course the 'evidence' is that we are to ignore all evidence that it exists....

I will note that you STILL have not provided any statements, or been willing to cite your sources for your claims. Which frankly makes those claims dubious in the extreme

That is your third serious attempt to misrepresent the substance of my statements... I'm trying to be patient with you, but if you're determined to keep doing this I really will have to report it as flame-bait, and I'd really prefer we had a civil discussion instead.

So provide the sources.
Seriously asking for a source is not flame bait. Its not trolling. It is saying "okay, you claim this was said in canon, so where was it said"

It is easy to claim there were no zentradi ships. But that is an affermitive claim and needs evidence

It would be very hard to claim there were NO Zentradi ships, because of the evidence of the series... which is why I didn't make any such claim, you're putting words in my mouth again. What I DID say is that there are very few Zentradi ships shown to be left after the 1st Robotech War, and that they are shown to still be in military hands in the time period you're talking about. You're asserting that there were large numbers of these ships in functional condition that could be repurposed... but there's no evidence that there were, and it would go against common sense for the UEEF to hand over battleships at least as powerful as the SDF-3 when they're gearing up for a preemptive strike against what they believe is the most technologically advanced and heavily defended world the galaxy (or universe?) has to offer.

Again your making an affermitive claim that all the ships were heavy military craft, and kept.
That is what is known as an affermitive claim and sort of needs support.

It is easy to claim that the 2014 Gloval Initiative referenced by Lancer in the comics does not actually mean that they were considering colonies in 2014. But that is an affirmatives claim and needs evidence.

That's actually a funny contradiction... because Gloval never mentions colonization in Robotech, he says the SDF-2 is for their planned preemptive strike against the homeworld of the Robotech Masters, which is the same line used in Sentinels.

Lancer mentions it. In a canon comic. That sort of means its canon.

Mind you, there's a fairly significant difference between exploring space with an eye towards future colonization and actually setting up colonies... the UEEF is described as doing the former, not the latter.

That is your personal interpretation. But again there is no explicit statement of that now is there?

You seem to have this 'burden of proof' thing backwards. When someone asks a question, and you make an affirmative statement on the question it is YOUR BURDEN to support your statements. Not theirs to disprove them.

As the old wisdom has it, "the burden of proof lies with the person who lays charges". You're contending that these things exist, so it's down to you to provide proof that they do... whereas I have presented evidence that they do not based on the unavailability of logistical support and personnel.

I did. I provided a canon statement that in 2014 they were looking at colonization. Thus if you want to prove it didn't happen you need evidence to that.
Pointing to one particular ship class as not being readied is not evidence that colonies were not built, just that the Angels were not. Since there is no statement anywhere that the Angels/Ark Angels were the only colony ships ever...

So, I invite you to please tell me... what canon source explicitly states that there are interstellar colonies?

THIS is the shifting I was talking about.
I ask for proof that they do not exist. So that we could discuss if they do or do not exist.
I do not have to prove that one exists...
although there are two statements suggestive of it in the comics
Invasion issue #2 Page #2
Prelude issue #5 page #11

title and time index or title and page number, please. Hell, I'll handicap it for you... what canon source explicitly states that a colony mission was launched? If you can give me an explicit, unambiguous, and canon statement that a colony mission was launched I will cheerfully concede the argument... if not, then you have nothing to go on except reflex denial.

Again nice try
You are again trying to dodge the issue by making me defend your position.
That isn't how it works. If you want to claim that something doesn't exist you have to PROVE it yourself.
I am not required to prove that it does exist for its existence to be possible, but you do have to prove it doesn't exist for its existence to be impossible
but as said above try
Invasion issue #2 page #2 and Prelude Issue #5 page #11

[Seto Kaiba]

2014 is not after the second robotech war.
and no you have not provided any evidence other than the fact that the Angel Class was laid down after 'robotech wars'

First, you're confusing a statement of intent ("this is one of our long-term goals") for the existence and implementation of an actual plan. All Lancer establishes is that exploring space with an eye toward future colonization is theoretically on their to-do list... that statement he makes is him expressing his confusion as to why they're wasting their time on a compromised planet instead of doing that. Someone saying "I plan to do some house shopping" is not proof that they actually bought a house.

Second, I have... the statement given in AotSC is that the directive to repopulate the human race elsewhere in the cosmos came in the wake of the Robotech Wars (plural).

Which doesn't even say which wars (malcontent uprising? Zentradi suppression when they captured the various factories? WHICH WARS?)

The Robotech Wars are canonically numbered, mate...
The 1st Robotech War is the war with the Zentradi in the Macross Saga in 2009-2014. (Macross Saga)
The 2nd Robotech War is the Robotech Masters' invasion of Earth in 2029-2030. (Masters Saga)
The 3rd Robotech War is the liberation of Earth from the Invid Regess in 2038-2044. (New Generation)

To the best of my knowledge, no official source has ever classified Khyron's malcontents or the capture of the factory satellite as a separate Robotech War. The war with the Invid Regent is never numbered either, though since that one doesn't end until around the same time as the 3rd Robotech War, it is effectively not in consideration for the aftermath of Robotech Wars (plural) in the period under discussion.

2014 is when the Gloval Initiative was dated.

That doesn't establish that any missions took place or even that any concrete plan existed... merely that exploring space with an eye towards future colonization was on the to-do list. That fact is also stated in AotSC's glossary of terms.

we saw 9 being used in the comics yes...
but we literally do not know what happened to all the ships on /guarding the factory satalites, nor what happened to all the ships in Breetai's fleet.

The dialog of the series indicates the fleet protecting the factory satellite was annihilated by Breetai, so where are these ships your argument hinges on coming from?

Incorrect. They pulled the Angel class from production. They did not 'call off the plans' unless you have a citation for that claim

The text of the Angel-class/Neutron-S missile entry in AotSC indicates that the continued hostilities in space rendered the early colonization efforts too dangerous, and that construction was halted on that basis and a more defensible alternative was sought.

You mean like the gloval initiative of 2014?

That establishes that space colonization was on their bucket list... not that colonization outside the solar system had been attempted or even planned. I'll give you that much, they have at least a tenuous motive in 2014.

Or the statement that the invid threaten "our colonies on the moon, mars, and the rest of the universe?"

That establishes that they believe the Invid are a threat to the rest of the universe in addition to being a perceived threat to Earth's holdings on the Moon and Mars.

Its not that HG is saying something. It is that you, personally, are saying you do not want there to be colonies, and then trying to pass that claim off as what is said by the canon.

No, it's that I'm basing my position on the available evidence that shows only that the UEEF had, as one of its long-term goals, the exploration of space for the purpose of future colonization... and that the early efforts toward that goal were only initiated after a second Robotech War (~2031) and aborted because of ongoing hostilities in space as stated. I'm taking what's written at its face value, which points to the colonization program being a secondary objective behind the military goals of the UEEF, and that a plan didn't materialize until Earth had already been occupied and the UEEF was embroiled in a sustained conflict with hostile aliens.

Noooo I have it correct
You are making a claim. Your claim is that the 2014 Gloval Initiative for space (which is said to include colonization) did not happen

The "Gloval Initiative" is described by Lancer as an objective not a plan or a program. "We intend to do" is not the same as "We did".

So provide the sources.
Seriously asking for a source is not flame bait. Its not trolling. It is saying "okay, you claim this was said in canon, so where was it said"

No, when I provide the sources and you say I've provided nothing, that's baiting.

Lancer mentions it. In a canon comic. That sort of means its canon.

Well, actually a member on these boards wrote to Tommy and inquired about the canonicity of the comics a while back and got an answer different from what we'd heard previously... prior to that, the line we'd heard from HG was that the post-reboot comics are canon, but what he got for an answer was that they were pseudo-canon.

Either way, the Gloval Initiative is a statement of intent... not deed, and Lancer directly hangs a lampshade on that fact by asking WHY they're not actually DOING it.

I did. I provided a canon statement that in 2014 they were looking at colonization.

Yes, you proved that they were "looking at" colonizing other worlds... not that they DID anything, or that they had a concrete plan, just that they were looking at the possibility.

Pointing to one particular ship class as not being readied is not evidence that colonies were not built, just that the Angels were not. Since there is no statement anywhere that the Angels/Ark Angels were the only colony ships ever...

Conversely, there is no statement anywhere that any classes of colony ship (improvised or otherwise) predate the Angel-class, which is said to comprise humanity's early efforts towards colonization. If there were earlier efforts, why are they not mentioned?

I ask for proof that they do not exist. So that we could discuss if they do or do not exist.
I do not have to prove that one exists...

I've given you evidence that they do not exist... you assert the contrary, and I'm waiting for supporting evidence.

You are again trying to dodge the issue by making me defend your position.

No, I'm asking you to defend your position... as I am doing with mine. So far, you have only attempted to dodge the question and cited a pair of statements that don't lend any actual support to your argument, as the greater context of the former is a character hanging a lampshade on why that ISN'T happening and the latter is solely interpretive. I think it's only fair that, if I consider your evidence you should consider mine. If we can't do that then I think we're done here.

[eliakon]

We have a statement of intent in 2014 to colonize
We have an unknown number of ships survive the final battle of earth
We have an unknown number of ships captured in capturing the multiple factory satalites that the humans captured
We have a statement that there are colonies on "the moon, mars, and the rest of the universe"


Against this is the statement that one class of colony ships was canceled.

Some how that doesn't look like 'explicit proof of no colonies' to me

And as for the claim that HG has changed the canonical status of the comics....
...you have support for that? Specifically in the form of a verifiable copy of the statement in question? Because 'I know a guy who says that he talked to a guy" is hearsay not evidence.

[Seto Kaiba]

We have a statement of intent in 2014 to colonize
We have an unknown number of ships survive the final battle of earth
We have an unknown number of ships captured in capturing the multiple factory satalites that the humans captured
We have a statement that there are colonies on "the moon, mars, and the rest of the universe"

We have a statement of intent, yes... but that's as far as it goes.
We have an unknown (but small) number of ships that survive the final battle at Earth... but are shown to remain in the possession of the military. I believe the number you cited was nine?
We have an unknown (but based on dialog, negligible or nonexistent) number of ships obtained from the factory satellite capture operation.[sup]1[/sup]
We have a statement that says the Invid are believed to be a threat to:

• Their colonies on the Moon (confirmed to exist in the ALuCE entry in AotSC)
• Mars
• The Rest of the Universe.

The problem with the colonies argument is that we can unambiguously demonstrate intent and an aborted plan, but not the result... interstellar colonization was a goal in 2014, planned somewhere around 2031, and then a fourteen year wait during which the first generation colony ships become WMDs and blow up, and the second generation colony ships get blown up by the first generation's WMD conversion. Don't get me wrong, I fully understand the desire for Robotech's setting to be larger and more diverse, but there just isn't concrete evidence for it and probably won't be with Shadow Rising MIA. It seems to be one of those tragic "We had such great plans for the future but war ruined it all" type moments.

Against this is the statement that one class of colony ships was canceled.

Half-correct... the above, against the statement that the actual order to make it happen didn't come down until after there had been multiple Robotech Wars, and that the early efforts were suspended because it was too dangerous.

Some how that doesn't look like 'explicit proof of no colonies' to me

If the early efforts didn't pan out and the later efforts never got off the ground... the conclusion kind of draws itself.

And as for the claim that HG has changed the canonical status of the comics....
...you have support for that? Specifically in the form of a verifiable copy of the statement in question? Because 'I know a guy who says that he talked to a guy" is hearsay not evidence.

I'll PM you on that (there are extenuating circumstances for why I won't post it here).



1. No indication has been given whether or not the other factory satellites seized from Tirolian territory were guarded by Zentradi, nor has there been any statement that those factories produced Zentradi hardware.

[eliakon]

We have a statement of intent in 2014 to colonize
We have an unknown number of ships survive the final battle of earth
We have an unknown number of ships captured in capturing the multiple factory satalites that the humans captured
We have a statement that there are colonies on "the moon, mars, and the rest of the universe"

We have a statement of intent, yes... but that's as far as it goes.

And to make the claim that they did NOT do what they had as their mission statement in 2014 (a mission that we have not had any canon statement of revoking) seems...specious

We have an unknown (but small) number of ships that survive the final battle at Earth... but are shown to remain in the possession of the military. I believe the number you cited was nine?

I count eight of the (rather rare) gunships and a flagship being used to seal the burial mounds.
I have not checked every picture, cell, or frame of the animation and comics.
But they had enough survive that they could field a nice squadron of a rather uncommon ship.

We have an unknown (but based on dialog, negligible or nonexistent) number of ships obtained from the factory satellite capture operation.[sup]1[/sup]

Which dialog says it was negligible or nonexistent?

We have a statement that says the Invid are believed to be a threat to:

• Their colonies on the Moon (confirmed to exist in the ALuCE entry in AotSC)
• Mars
• The Rest of the Universe.

Actually, the statement is "to our colonies on the moon, mars, and the rest of the universe."
one sentence, with the subject "our colonies"

The problem with the colonies argument is that we can unambiguously demonstrate intent and an aborted plan,

Incorrect, we can demonstrate intent. And that one part of the plan was aborted.

but not the result... interstellar colonization was a goal in 2014, planned somewhere around 2031, and then a fourteen year wait during which the first generation colony ships become WMDs and blow up, and the second generation colony ships get blown up by the first generation's WMD conversion. Don't get me wrong, I fully understand the desire for Robotech's setting to be larger and more diverse, but there just isn't concrete evidence for it and probably won't be with Shadow Rising MIA. It seems to be one of those tragic "We had such great plans for the future but war ruined it all" type moments.

That is a great personal view of what might have happened.
But it is lacking in evidence that it is what actually did happen.

Against this is the statement that one class of colony ships was canceled.

Half-correct... the above, against the statement that the actual order to make it happen didn't come down until after there had been multiple Robotech Wars, and that the early efforts were suspended because it was too dangerous.

Correct that this one ship class was canceled after the second robotech war.
That is not the same thing as saying that this colony ship was the first attempt at colonization, nor is it the same as saying that these were the only colony ships ever.

Some how that doesn't look like 'explicit proof of no colonies' to me

If the early efforts didn't pan out and the later efforts never got off the ground... the conclusion kind of draws itself.

Except that you have shown no such thing.
You are trying to argue that the canceling of the Angel Class proves that nothing at all was ever done on the colony front.
There is zero support for that.
You are trying to argue that the canceling of the Angel Class proves that they canceled all colony efforts
Again there is zero support for that claim
The only conclusion that draws itself is that
there are no angel ships making colonies.
But that is not proof of no colonies.

And as for the claim that HG has changed the canonical status of the comics....
...you have support for that? Specifically in the form of a verifiable copy of the statement in question? Because 'I know a guy who says that he talked to a guy" is hearsay not evidence.

I'll PM you on that (there are extenuating circumstances for why I won't post it here).

Fair enough.

1. No indication has been given whether or not the other factory satellites seized from Tirolian territory were guarded by Zentradi, nor has there been any statement that those factories produced Zentradi hardware.

Which takes us back into the land of 'lack of proof is not proof of lack'
We know that they had at least two factory satalites. From the text it implies that there were several
Of those, one was sent to Earth space and made the ships of the REF fleet....
Which sort of leaves the question of 'who was manning all the others, where they are, and what they were doing' unanswered.
With out a canon answer on that, any claims of what they were or more importantly not doing is just conjecture.

[glitterboy2098]

and actually, the claim of a "14 year wait" regarding the Angel class is not supportable by the evidence.

while Art of shadow chronicles does say they were built after "wars", depending on how one classifies 'wars' this could be as early as 2020 (as you have the malcontent uprisings and several deep space conflicts with the zentreadi prior to that), or 2025 (after the start of the sentinels campaign), or 2031 (after the 2nd war)
to claim 14 years is to make a claim to the 2031 date that is not actually given in the source material. so you will need to prove that the mention of robotech wars refers to a 2031 date.
further, the art of book does not mention whether the Angel class was actually used. given the UEEF's primary mandate with the Gloval Directive, you need to prove that they were NOT used, with specific dialog and references.

Prelude to shadow chronicles, issue 3, page 13 has reference to the Angel class being mothballed. specifically, they are said they are being mothballed to make way for the construction of the Ark Angel class. at no point are the Angel class said to have never been used, nor are they said to have been used. the fact they are being mothballed however suggests that they are considered fully serviceable vessels (which would not be the case if they'd never been used) and given the UEEF has colonization as its primary mandate, it is highly likely that these vessels saw use moving colonists. further the Angel class is described as "older vessels", something that would not have been mentioned if they'd never seen service. (they'd have been described as having never been used.)

given that the Ark Angel class is described as having been designed in response to the outbreak of hostilities after the original pioneer mission, this suggests two things.. the preceding angel class was designed before the outbreak of hostilities. and that the Angel class thus predates 2025. (as the original pioneer mission was the SDF-3 going to Tyrol. with hostilities beginning around 2025..)
this would put the Angel class as having closer to a twenty year service life.

[eliakon]

Also. I am curious...
where, exactly, is it said that the REF turned all ships into warships and took them with them?
I know there was a comment about this in the non-canon novels...but where in the official current canon is it said?

This is rather important actually as the REF is said to have the Pioneer Mission as their goal all the way up until they abandon it for retaking Earth from the Invid.
While the SDF-3 mission to Triol is a part of the REFs mission, I have not found any statement to suggest that it was the only one. Nor that they abandoned the primary mission of Pioneer (colonization) before they turned into a reclamation force.
The claim that they did so is a rather...significant one, and needs to be supported with in canon citations, especially since it is directly countering statements in the AoTSC.

[Protoculture]

If one has to choose the deep space colonisation efforts, there's a line spouted by Lancer in Robotech Invasion comic miniseries published by Wildstorm (it is canon) which mentioned Gloval Initiative 2014. The Initiative stated:

The long term objective of the Robotech Expedition was the advancement of colonization and preservation of the Human race

Further more, if we are going by canonical route (Robotech), UEEF already have sizeable off-world colonies in Sol-system, mainly Mars and its moon Phobos (as appeared in Robotech Academy) and several Robotech factory satellites (as per Art of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles) and yes, a considerable population of UEEF colonists and emigres that settled on Tyrol permanently in addition of native Tyrolians.

If we're going to adapt the OSM route (GC Mospeada / SC Southern Cross), we could include other Jovian / Saturn / Neptune based colonies in Sol System, plus Liberte as a colonised world at nearby star system closer to Sol.

Colonisation wise, the only canonical infodump that we have are the Angel-class colony vessels and Pioneer Mission. In regards of colonisation efforts that started in 2015 - 2029 period, we may only extrapolate. That's where the discussion entered the non-canon realm.

For me, the canon explaination on colonisation mission give a broad stroke and vague enough so much so that we may be able to fill in as we see fit. However that means we may have to accept the fact that we will stray into non-canonical pathway, but hey, that's what fanfiction, and roleplay gaming at its best.

Reference of Gloval Initiative 2014:
http://robotech.wikia.com/wiki/Gloval_Initiative

Gloval Initiative Entry in Robotech Visions:
http://robotechvisions.wikia.com/wiki/Gloval_Initiative

[Sambot]

There are bases and colonies in the Sol System. It would not surprise me if there were other colonies outside the Sol System. That it wasn't a UN priority does not preclude that someone else couldn't have launched colony missions. Zentraedi ships easily could have been modified for such missions. One could argue that Breetai's ship already was.

We also have Pirates as mentioned in another thread. They had to have come from somewhere. They weren't aliens or they'd be UFOs. They're not a remnant Zentraedi unit or the response would be different. Not that I'm discounting that there weren't Zentraedi Pirates. However Pirates are a relatively known opponent so the pirates must have come from Earth and must live some where else.

I am not sure what the currant canon is these days however initially Minmay was not the only civilian on the Pioneer Mission. Nor was the Pioneer Mission a military one. Minmay was just one of two (including Janice) who wasn't supposed to be there. And the Pioneer Mission was originally a diplomatic mission that carried a big stick. Scott Bernard was a kid on the SDF-3. Dana and Bowie could have gone but Max and Miriya decided against it. A diplomatic council was the REF's civilian governing body. I would presume that they and many of the troops also brought their families along. Why should Scott, Dana, and Bowie be the only possible kids? Marlene Rush and a lot of others in Mars Division would have been kids when the SDF-3 launched. Lance Belmont would have been a bit older but still in his teens. Especially since REF leaders knew the mission would be a long one and having family with them would help moral. The military forces would also fight harder since their families were on the line. The presence of civilians gives the council and the military even greater motivation to succeed. And since, there were civilians there would need to have been a place to put them. I think "Colony Bays" is a nod to these civilian's presence on the SDF-3 and other ships. Whatever form it took, it was just the area where civilians were housed and employed. Everywhere else was military only.



I really do wish that Harmony Gold would take a hands off approach the the RPG and let Palladium run with it. There is so much that could be done besides just filling in the blanks. Harmony Gold could always disavow what they don't like later. But if something doesn't happen, as in producing more books, I fear Palladium will drop the license again. Even Tactics will need to expand beyond the series eventually.

[Seto Kaiba]

There are bases and colonies in the Sol System. It would not surprise me if there were other colonies outside the Sol System.

We can confirm the existence of bases outside the Sol system, but not colonies... the UEEF had an extensive base on Tirol, for instance, where a fair amount of Prelude was set.

We also have Pirates as mentioned in another thread. They had to have come from somewhere.

If they actually exist. There are plenty of throwaway lines of dialog in Robotech that TPTB don't consider to be accurate.

I am not sure what the currant canon is these days however initially Minmay was not the only civilian on the Pioneer Mission. Nor was the Pioneer Mission a military one. Minmay was just one of two (including Janice) who wasn't supposed to be there.

Based on the available information, that there was no official civilian contingent in space is still true... unless one counts alien civilians, like the ambassadors from the various Sentinels races. The RPG even notes that the military is pretty much the only career path open to humans born in space. (Which makes one wonder what happens to those who can't or won't go into military service... does the SDF-3 have a pack of Dave Lister knockoffs roaming the lower decks living off chicken vindaloo and lager? Hell, there's a game idea in that somewhere...)

On the other hand, the Pioneer Mission was originally a military preemptive strike (as described by Admiral Gloval back in the Macross Saga). Somewhere along the way between the original series and Sentinels its objective changed from "find the Robotech Masters and preemptively kick their teeth in" to "make peaceful contact with the Robotech Masters".

Scott Bernard was a kid on the SDF-3.

Honestly, I don't recall... did they actually say that was the SDF-3 he was on? I don't believe they did. I know in the original he grew up on Mars, but I can't recall if they confirm the same in the adaptation.

A diplomatic council was the REF's civilian governing body.

Just an advisory body, actually... the actual power was wielded by the military brass.

I think "Colony Bays" is a nod to these civilian's presence on the SDF-3 and other ships. Whatever form it took, it was just the area where civilians were housed and employed. Everywhere else was military only.

Point of order... the colony bays were not something the ships had when they initially launched, it's something the Tirolian shipyards added when the UEEF fleet was retrofitted in 2043-2044.

[ShadowLogan]

Further more, if we are going by canonical route (Robotech), UEEF already have sizeable off-world colonies in Sol-system, mainly Mars and its moon Phobos (as appeared in Robotech Academy) and several Robotech factory satellites (as per Art of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles) and yes, a considerable population of UEEF colonists and emigres that settled on Tyrol permanently in addition of native Tyrolians.

Are we sure Academy is a viable source given its failed kickstarter and such.

We can confirm the existence of bases outside the Sol system, but not colonies... the UEEF had an extensive base on Tirol, for instance, where a fair amount of Prelude was set.

I'm not sure on that:
1. how are we defining as an example of a "colony"? A military base could count as a colony. England's colonization of Australia was after all as a penal colony at Botony Bay. So something similar could be at play here: military colonies.

2. AotSC's article on the Angel-class (Neutron-S Missile) does leave some wiggle room for civilian colonies to exist because they don't say one way or the other if a colony(s) was established, just that it had become to dangerous.

If they actually exist. There are plenty of throwaway lines of dialog in Robotech that TPTB don't consider to be accurate.

I'm not sure the Pirates line is, or should be treated as, a throwaway line given that if the line is cut/ignored in that it could break the scene. It also opens up a lot of story possibilities to given it is unlikely the "Space Pirates" actually exist as a unified entity, but rather made up of factions (sort of like the cartels or the mob). Which means you could have different factions of pirates, both terran and non-terran.

The RPG even notes that the military is pretty much the only career path open to humans born in space. (Which makes one wonder what happens to those who can't or won't go into military service... does the SDF-3 have a pack of Dave Lister knockoffs roaming the lower decks living off chicken vindaloo and lager? Hell, there's a game idea in that somewhere...)

Is it supposed to be "pretty much the only" or just "the only" career path? Because if its "pretty much" that leaves room for civilians. Though civilians might be confined to installations and not ships. The military likely has some type of program to handle "Conscientious objectors", which might mean diverting them to specific roles (non-combat).

Based on the available information, that there was no official civilian contingent in space is still true... unless one counts alien civilians, like the ambassadors from the various Sentinels races.

Then what was Minmei then? In Prelude she doesn't appear to be military. Even Lang and other scientists might be technically civilians.

Honestly, I don't recall... did they actually say that was the SDF-3 he was on? I don't believe they did. I know in the original he grew up on Mars, but I can't recall if they confirm the same in the adaptation.

Scott was on the SDF-3 as part of the Novel timeline. And probably part of the Sentinels comics (possibly not familiar with them) version pre-2000. Given the broadstrokes being still applicable, it leaves some room from these potential versions.

All the series proper says (at minimum) the crew of Scott's Horizon-t was born out in deep space on a robotech ship, without identifying the ship in question. Though the ship's CO might be an issue depending on how the comment was intended.

[Alrik Vas]

Wiggle room, prove it never happened. It doesn't say you can't.

This is all just lawyering, guys. Canon proof isn't even all that stable, really. HG lets a line pass in some licensed material and suddenly Praxians are really the ancestors of the Splugorth's Altara Warrior Women. Prove it didn't happen!

[Seto Kaiba]

We can confirm the existence of bases outside the Sol system, but not colonies... the UEEF had an extensive base on Tirol, for instance, where a fair amount of Prelude was set.

I'm not sure on that:
1. how are we defining as an example of a "colony"? A military base could count as a colony. England's colonization of Australia was after all as a penal colony at Botony Bay. So something similar could be at play here: military colonies.

Unless we're taking considerable liberties with the definition of "colony", the military bases shouldn't count... they're not under the political control of a government, they're administrated entirely by the military. (The in-system military bases blur the line a bit, as they are explicitly militarized colonies rather than purpose-built military bases.)

2. AotSC's article on the Angel-class (Neutron-S Missile) does leave some wiggle room for civilian colonies to exist because they don't say one way or the other if a colony(s) was established, just that it had become to dangerous.

It requires a good deal of interpretation to reach that conclusion, which is not supported by the RPG or the official canon at this time. (That can change, but is unlikely to as Robotech development is stalled, perhaps forever.)

The explanation most consistent with the official canon and RPG's view that there is no career path outside of the military for those born in space would be that the Angel-class were never completed before their program got pulled.

I'm not sure the Pirates line is, or should be treated as, a throwaway line given that if the line is cut/ignored in that it could break the scene.

Eh... I'm sure Tommy could provide us with some verbiage justifying it being a throaway line, likely involving pirates being a catch-all excuse for ships that vanished without trace. (The "here be dragons" of space.) It's entirely down to his whims whether pirates are a thing or not, since no direct evidence for their existence is in the series itself.

It'd be useful for padding the RPG out, but otherwise it's just kind of a cliche...

Is it supposed to be "pretty much the only" or just "the only" career path? Because if its "pretty much" that leaves room for civilians.

I'll check the exact verbiage, but I'm reasonably certain it was worded such that the military is presented as the only real career path for people born in space. (It blithely handwaves the fascist horror of an entirely military society run by soldiers with something about liberating occupied planets having become a way of life for humanity.)

EDIT: My apologies for the delay, I have now consulted the precise wording in the core book. The way that it's worded in the core book fits the "the only career path" description. It actually goes so far as to say that, for humans born in space, military service and combat is virtually all they know... and that fighting alien oppressors in the name of human independence and freedom has become a way of life to such an extent that many teenagers can't wait to join up. (In short, they're most of the way to being The Zentradi 2.0.)

Then what was Minmei then? In Prelude she doesn't appear to be military. Even Lang and other scientists might be technically civilians.

Based on every depiction of the era thus far, she was a stowaway... so I guess if you want to dress it up nicely, she was a one-woman "unofficial civilian contingent". They couldn't spare the resources to send her back home on her own, so they let her stay (however grudgingly).

With the exception of some of the scientists in "From the Stars" whose clothes couldn't be seen clearly, every one of those "military scientists" has been presented as a soldier-scientist in uniform and invariably holding officer ranks. (This actually goes back to the OSM, where the character the adaptation turned into Dr. Lang was a Major in the UN Spacy, though he was not a doctor of anything, simply the ship's chief engineer.)

Scott was on the SDF-3 as part of the Novel timeline. And probably part of the Sentinels comics (possibly not familiar with them) version pre-2000. Given the broadstrokes being still applicable, it leaves some room from these potential versions.

Fair enough.

All the series proper says (at minimum) the crew of Scott's Horizon-t was born out in deep space on a robotech ship, without identifying the ship in question. Though the ship's CO might be an issue depending on how the comment was intended.

From the way the narrator chips in, I would assume the remark excludes the ship's grey-haired CO and applies only to the "new generation" of soldiers. Considering the earliest forayes into deep space by the UEDF and UEEF were only about 30 years ago from that episode's standpoint, he'd have to have led a pretty hellish life to look like a 60 year old math teacher in his late 20's.

[ShadowLogan]

Unless we're taking considerable liberties with the definition of "colony", the military bases shouldn't count... they're not under the political control of a government, they're administrated entirely by the military. (The in-system military bases blur the line a bit, as they are explicitly militarized colonies rather than purpose-built military bases.)

But not one without precedent. We know there have been cases of "penal colonies" being established (Australia being one example, Ancient Rome is also said to establish military colonies mentioned in the Wikipedia page on Colony), so it could be a colony with a "specialized" nature/roll. It would also meet the dictionary definition of colony ("any people or territory separated from but subject to a ruling power" from dictionary.com, and Tirol might also qualify as a colony).

It requires a good deal of interpretation to reach that conclusion, which is not supported by the RPG or the official canon at this time. (That can change, but is unlikely to as Robotech development is stalled, perhaps forever.)

I don't think so. It is a simple acknowledgement that the facts in AotSC and canon that we hear about colony plans in several places but do not know if they actually established any. No one says they did not establish colonies, but they also do not state they did. We do know that the colonization effort was put on hold, but again we do not know if they where sucessful in establishing any colonies before it was put on hold.

Eh... I'm sure Tommy could provide us with some verbiage justifying it being a throaway line, likely involving pirates being a catch-all excuse for ships that vanished without trace. (The "here be dragons" of space.) It's entirely down to his whims whether pirates are a thing or not, since no direct evidence for their existence is in the series itself.

It'd be useful for padding the RPG out, but otherwise it's just kind of a cliche...

I don't think "pirates" would be a catch-all excuse for vanishing ships either, we'd probably get something like the Bermuda Triangle or the monster thought to be between Earth and Mars in the 60s that interfered with Mars bound probes (usually by nationality, Soviet probes apparently were more appetizing apparently than American probes). For it to be Pirates I would think they would need some evidence of high-level intelligence at work and motive .

Granted coming from the 2nd act I suspect Tommy/HG would consider it a throwaway line by default given their dislike for the arc.

Further discussion on them probably belongs in the Pirates thread though.

Based on every depiction of the era thus far, she was a stowaway... so I guess if you want to dress it up nicely, she was a one-woman "unofficial civilian contingent". They couldn't spare the resources to send her back home on her own, so they let her stay (however grudgingly).

She would still qualify as a civilian contingent. And the explanation you provide might work for the Novel timeline where they get stranded, but the series proper doesn't suggest the Pioneer Mission was stranded and didn't have any contact (ex Carpenter, Transport Squadron later in the TRM arc). Its also worth considering how the children would be classified: soldiers or civilians? (and at what age do they transition).

From the way the narrator chips in, I would assume the remark excludes the ship's grey-haired CO and applies only to the "new generation" of soldiers. Considering the earliest forayes into deep space by the UEDF and UEEF were only about 30 years ago from that episode's standpoint, he'd have to have led a pretty hellish life to look like a 60 year old math teacher in his late 20's.

Well the CO was on the bridge/cockpit of the Horizon-T when the crewmember made the comment, and I certainly agree there are ways to take the statement that would exclude him.

I don't think the CO would have to necessarily live a hellish life to look that old as their are other ways he could look that old (just one of those people who looks older than they actually are, or Progeria, it was a combination of his build and choice in hair dye ((Scott and Lancer do have unusual hair color for full humans...)), etc).

You might be able to get another 10years or so if the UEDF had a deep space (solar system) facility(s) that escaped the story plot from TMS. Which might actually make sense given they set up on observation post on Mars in the 2000s, which to be truly effective though would require multiple posts elsewhere in the solar system if they are looking to seal up any blind spots (Orberths certainly had the range to reach NEO asteroids, Venus or Mercury, the various Inner Planet-Sun Lagrange Points, the Moon, etc) and did not want to rely on unmanned satellites (this way if something "broke" it could be easily fixed reducing the time that post was "down"). Depending on how large the facility(s) is made, it could also provide a significant additional source of population "survivors" (who wouldn't technically be survivors of the Rain of Death on Earth if they weren’t there to begin with).

[Lt Gargoyle]

I think most military bases would have a civilian population much like our (the US military bases) do. spouses will have something they can do (jobs), these will not necessarily be front line bases, but over a bit of time the base begins to expand and suddenly you have a small colony rising up. Plus every soldier eventually reaches that point where they retire from the service. And since they did not return to earth its very likely they took one of those jobs on a military base or opened up a business in the surrounding colony.

I imagine if the Angel colony vessels were not already in use, that some of the Zentraedi vessels would be turned into mobile cities run by a Civilians. After all trying to find a wedding dress in deep space would be hard, but not impossible. And the reason for this ships basic need, your troops can only function for so long before shore leave and some hard earned R&R is needed. So these colony/city vessel tend to the soldiers other needs.

[Seto Kaiba]

Unless we're taking considerable liberties with the definition of "colony", the military bases shouldn't count... they're not under the political control of a government, they're administrated entirely by the military. (The in-system military bases blur the line a bit, as they are explicitly militarized colonies rather than purpose-built military bases.)

But not one without precedent. We know there have been cases of "penal colonies" being established (Australia being one example, Ancient Rome is also said to establish military colonies mentioned in the Wikipedia page on Colony), so it could be a colony with a "specialized" nature/roll.

Speaking as someone with a fair amount of familiarity with Roman history and a number of Aussies on tap, I'd have to say you're misrepresenting it a bit. Australia was originally a penal colony, but it was administrated by the British state not the military, and the criminal population was civilians who'd been tossed out of England for the whimsical crimes like cutting purses and throats on the streets of London town. The Roman colonies were (by the very savvy design of the Roman senate) formed AROUND military bases as a way of supporting them logistically and bringing proper Roman culture to the barbarians (meaning: "everyone who wasn't from a proper Roman city).

With the exception of the colonies that were later militarized in the inner solar system, there don't appear to be any civilians kicking around the military bases elsewhere in the galaxy.

I don't think so. It is a simple acknowledgement that the facts in AotSC and canon that we hear about colony plans in several places but do not know if they actually established any.

Sort of... it's never actually established that the Angel-class ships were completed or launched, only that they stopped building them.

Based on every depiction of the era thus far, she was a stowaway... so I guess if you want to dress it up nicely, she was a one-woman "unofficial civilian contingent". They couldn't spare the resources to send her back home on her own, so they let her stay (however grudgingly).

She would still qualify as a civilian contingent. And the explanation you provide might work for the Novel timeline where they get stranded, but the series proper doesn't suggest the Pioneer Mission was stranded and didn't have any contact (ex Carpenter, Transport Squadron later in the TRM arc). Its also worth considering how the children would be classified: soldiers or civilians? (and at what age do they transition).

One civilian does not a colony make... and by all accounts she was basically confined to quarters when she wasn't the object of Colonel Wolfe's philanderous attentions.

WRT children becoming soldiers, they're not clear on that in the RPG but it is explicitly stated that recruitment age was reduced due to the atrocious levels of attrition.

[Sambot]

We can confirm the existence of bases outside the Sol system, but not colonies... the UEEF had an extensive base on Tirol, for instance, where a fair amount of Prelude was set.

How do we know that bases don't double as colonies?

If they actually exist. There are plenty of throwaway lines of dialog in Robotech that TPTB don't consider to be accurate.

It's still there though. If it's wrong why didn't they remove it?

Code: Select all

Based on the available information, that there was no official civilian contingent in space is still true... unless one counts alien civilians, like the ambassadors from the various Sentinels races.  The RPG even notes that the military is pretty much the only career path open to humans born in space. (Which makes one wonder what happens to those who can't or won't go into military service... does the SDF-3 have a pack of Dave Lister knockoffs roaming the lower decks living off chicken vindaloo and lager?  Hell, there's a game idea in that somewhere...)

That's now. That wasn't so clearly the case way back when, when there was a civilian governing body. Also if it were purely military kids would not have been taken along and any women who get pregnant would have been sent back to Earth. What occupations were available I'm not sure. Research and construction most likely. The Beta was still under development and the Cyclone hadn't been created yet. Plus someone has to build all those bases.

On the other hand, the Pioneer Mission was originally a military preemptive strike (as described by Admiral Gloval back in the Macross Saga). Somewhere along the way between the original series and Sentinels its objective changed from "find the Robotech Masters and preemptively kick their teeth in" to "make peaceful contact with the Robotech Masters".

The Pioneer Mission was hopefully make peace. If peace isn't possible fight the next war on Tirol not Earth. They were hoping for peace but expecting war.

Honestly, I don't recall... did they actually say that was the SDF-3 he was on? I don't believe they did. I know in the original he grew up on Mars, but I can't recall if they confirm the same in the adaptation.

I just remember that he was under the car of Dr. Lang who was an uncle or something. And he could have lived on Mars until the SDF-3 launched.

Just an advisory body, actually... the actual power was wielded by the military brass.

Not according to the old comics and novels. The REF answered to them and it was the council that agreed to joining the Sentinals. The Zentraedi going back to full size to mine Fantoma, and then thanks to General Edwards manipulations had them and the Sentinals declared outlaws.

Point of order... the colony bays were not something the ships had when they initially launched, it's something the Tirolian shipyards added when the UEEF fleet was retrofitted in 2043-2044.

That's now. Way back when when civilians were included they had to live some where. Granted the vast majority would be related to military personnel or have very high clearance levels. Still you wouldn't expect them to live in barracks. And the Soup Repair Technician wouldn't normally be around top secret stuff.

[Sambot]

Unless we're taking considerable liberties with the definition of "colony", the military bases shouldn't count... they're not under the political control of a government, they're administrated entirely by the military. (The in-system military bases blur the line a bit, as they are explicitly militarized colonies rather than purpose-built military bases.)

For a while didn't a British company wield and incredible amount of military power, with British military personnel answering to company officials? I would say military colonies would be a possibility.

The explanation most consistent with the official canon and RPG's view that there is no career path outside of the military for those born in space would be that the Angel-class were never completed before their program got pulled.

That's now. Not then. Plus how often are military developments developed purely by military personnel? There's also a lot of OCCs not listed. That leaves a lot of jobs civilians could take beyond care givers and educators and space farmers/ranchers.

Eh... I'm sure Tommy could provide us with some verbiage justifying it being a throaway line, likely involving pirates being a catch-all excuse for ships that vanished without trace. (The "here be dragons" of space.) It's entirely down to his whims whether pirates are a thing or not, since no direct evidence for their existence is in the series itself.

It'd be useful for padding the RPG out, but otherwise it's just kind of a cliche...

Until then...

EDIT: My apologies for the delay, I have now consulted the precise wording in the core book. The way that it's worded in the core book fits the "the only career path" description. It actually goes so far as to say that, for humans born in space, military service and combat is virtually all they know... and that fighting alien oppressors in the name of human independence and freedom has become a way of life to such an extent that many teenagers can't wait to join up. (In short, they're most of the way to being The Zentradi 2.0.)

That doesn't preclude the presence of civilian occupations. Unless there's a ton more OCCs that should be available. And even the they'd just be a military equivalent of civilian ones. The differences between a civilian chicken soup vending machine technician and a military one being boot camp. I'm also sure that schools would have been run more like military academies. It's what they know so they go with it.

Based on every depiction of the era thus far, she was a stowaway... so I guess if you want to dress it up nicely, she was a one-woman "unofficial civilian contingent". They couldn't spare the resources to send her back home on her own, so they let her stay (however grudgingly).

With the exception of some of the scientists in "From the Stars" whose clothes couldn't be seen clearly, every one of those "military scientists" has been presented as a soldier-scientist in uniform and invariably holding officer ranks. (This actually goes back to the OSM, where the character the adaptation turned into Dr. Lang was a Major in the UN Spacy, though he was not a doctor of anything, simply the ship's chief engineer.)

Of course they couldn't send her back. Originally the SDF-3 went to Tirol on it's own. Then it got damaged. Where the rest of the fleet was I don't know. After they kept her a moral booster. Presuming other ships went with, or could be called in the REF/UNEF was now in a war and send a Warship back to Earth just to drop off one person wouldn't be worth the time or effort.

How do we know Lang wasn't a doctor of engineering? And again the council was civilian.

And it wasn't just Wolf that pursued her. Edwards did also.

Speaking as someone with a fair amount of familiarity with Roman history and a number of Aussies on tap, I'd have to say you're misrepresenting it a bit. Australia was originally a penal colony, but it was administrated by the British state not the military, and the criminal population was civilians who'd been tossed out of England for the whimsical crimes like cutting purses and throats on the streets of London town. The Roman colonies were (by the very savvy design of the Roman senate) formed AROUND military bases as a way of supporting them logistically and bringing proper Roman culture to the barbarians (meaning: "everyone who wasn't from a proper Roman city).

With the exception of the colonies that were later militarized in the inner solar system, there don't appear to be any civilians kicking around the military bases elsewhere in the galaxy.

Actually civilians tended to follow the military. Families and traders would often go with or travel too the colony. There was also the native population that would gather around the base for protection and profit.

Also doesn't appear to be does not mean that there are none. It just means that they're not generally visible. And even in plain sight they could be over looks. Is that clerk in the PX a soldier or a civilian?

[ShadowLogan]

With the exception of the colonies that were later militarized in the inner solar system, there don't appear to be any civilians kicking around the military bases elsewhere in the galaxy.

I don't mean to misrepresent things. However I am pointing out that there are types of colonies, or considered to be types. If we have types of colonies in the past, then we can have them in the future, possibly even new types.

Military Bases off world could be viewed as colonies. Even space stations could be viewed as colonies. It really depends on the definition being used for "colony" by TPTB.

Sort of... it's never actually established that the Angel-class ships were completed or launched, only that they stopped building them.

Ark-Angel & Angel-class ships though aren't required for colony building though. If the UEEF can establish off-world facilities, then they can use those same techniques for colony building.

What the Angel class ships amount to is likely having a SaturnV class rocket instead of SaturnIB in terms of lift capacity and volume into low earth orbit that their existing options probably amount to such as:
-Tokagawas (a bit larger than the SDF-1, but ~1/2 the size of the NS Missile IINM)
-Garfish Modules (underside is modular, could be talking specialized modules or just re-purposed modules)
-Ikazuchi (by the official line is it does carry over 400 additional mecha and axillary vehicles, I think we can rule out Cyclones being the culprit given HG's description uses the "Beta Fighters", "auxiliary craft" and "shuttles", which gives them volume to transport hardware or people though not likely both)
-vessels used by the Transport Squadron (#85, in Ep "Mindgames") in the later part of TMS that arrived via hyperspace
-vessels of the type used in the evacuation stills in Ep61

One civilian does not a colony make... and by all accounts she was basically confined to quarters when she wasn't the object of Colonel Wolfe's philanderous attentions.

WRT children becoming soldiers, they're not clear on that in the RPG but it is explicitly stated that recruitment age was reduced due to the atrocious levels of attrition.

One civilian does not make a civilian colony no, but it still establishes a civilian presence on the mission. Children being on the mission who aren't soldiers (yet) would also be civilian.

I have to wonder about the HG & RPGs thinking in this matter though. Its also worth considering if that angle was the same throughout the Pioneer/Expeditionary Force Mission (2022-44, maybe even 2014-44) or only recently (2040s).

Wolfe wasn't the only one interested in her, Edwards was to. I'd suspect though that Minmei's skills would be put to some use since even soldiers need entertainment/diversion and she is certainly qualified for that role being a singer and actress (even as bad as she was).

Not according to the old comics and novels. The REF answered to them and it was the council that agreed to joining the Sentinals. The Zentraedi going back to full size to mine Fantoma, and then thanks to General Edwards manipulations had them and the Sentinals declared outlaws.

The Old Comics and Novels both are no longer considered canon. At best they can be thought of as being separate alternate universes (Novels especially given that their timeline is not compatible with current HG timeline). Officially all we know is that Sentinels happened, but only the "broad strokes" apply per HG, though just what "broad strokes" implies isn't clear given the changing timeframes.

[Tiree]

Wolfe wasn't the only one interested in her, Edwards was to. I'd suspect though that Minmei's skills would be put to some use since even soldiers need entertainment/diversion and she is certainly qualified for that role being a singer and actress (even as bad as she was).

I have to point this out, since I have played a character who was a Minmei Fan (stalker). No matter how badly we might think she sings or acts. In Robotech terms, she is the numero uno, best thing on the block. This holds true, well before the Earth was destroyed.

This woman not only inspired one generation, but three of them (IE Lancer singing her tunes). She's like Elvis, the Beatles, and Spice Girls all rolled into one.

With that said - her voice was so powerful, she destroyed billions of lives in one day!

[Seto Kaiba]

How do we know that bases don't double as colonies?

The canonical absence of any official civilian presence would be a bit of a hint... as would the fact that even the RPG is telling us that serving in the military is the ONLY career path for people born in space. In the various depictions of the Pioneer Mission related to the animation, there were a grand total of three people who were not soldiers with the UEEF in space. One was Minmei, and the other two don't really count because they were (respectively) a man who'd joined the military under an assumed name to rescue (stalk) Minmei and a military espionage robot intended to spy on the UEDF brass for the UEEF who got dragged along by Minmei (who didn't realize that her companion was not a human).

It's still there though. If it's wrong why didn't they remove it?

For the same reason they don't fix anything else in the show... or produce anything new... or do anything to promote the show besides the pitifully poorly-attended convention tour... management isn't interested in doing anything but re-release the series and make a quick buck from existing fans on merchandising. There's no money to be had in it.

That's now. That wasn't so clearly the case way back when, when there was a civilian governing body.

There never was, for the UEEF... it was a purely military expedition of diplomacy (initially, of hostility).

As the official line and RPG have it, the UEG was a military sockpuppet after the 1st Robotech War.

Also if it were purely military kids would not have been taken along and any women who get pregnant would have been sent back to Earth.

Assuming, of course, that they were able to spare ships from the front lines to do that.

If you recall, one of the major plot points of the Sentinels arc was that the UEEF was unable to fleet and facing a numerically-superior foe. The best they could spare to reinforce Earth in the Masters Saga were ships of such poor quality that they'd already been relegated to rear echelon logistical support, and that was a dire emergency... which may account for why the "new generation" of soldiers in the New Generation saga state they grew up out in space aboard a "robotech ship".

What occupations were available I'm not sure. Research and construction most likely. The Beta was still under development and the Cyclone hadn't been created yet. Plus someone has to build all those bases.

We know for a fact that R&D was done by "military scientists" who held rank and wore uniforms.

Presumably the construction was also done by soldiers from the Corps of Engineers or some similar formation.

The Pioneer Mission was hopefully make peace. If peace isn't possible fight the next war on Tirol not Earth. They were hoping for peace but expecting war.

Go back and watch the show... Admiral Gloval tells them it's a preemptive strike to rob the Robotech Masters of their ability to make war. Peace through superior firepower.

Not according to the old comics and novels. The REF answered to them and it was the council that agreed to joining the Sentinals. The Zentraedi going back to full size to mine Fantoma, and then thanks to General Edwards manipulations had them and the Sentinals declared outlaws.

The novels are off in la-la land and the official canon shows that the Sentinels council was purely an advisory body to the UEEF brass.

That's now. Way back when when civilians were included they had to live some where. Granted the vast majority would be related to military personnel or have very high clearance levels. Still you wouldn't expect them to live in barracks. And the Soup Repair Technician wouldn't normally be around top secret stuff.

That doesn't follow... there were no colony bays until 2043-2044, and no civilians apart from Minmay in the official materials, unless you count the children of soldiers who were born much later. There were no civilians to include.

[Seto Kaiba]

For a while didn't a British company wield and incredible amount of military power, with British military personnel answering to company officials? I would say military colonies would be a possibility.

You're thinking of the East India company? Yeah, though they were less colonizers and more enslavers.

That's now. Not then. Plus how often are military developments developed purely by military personnel? There's also a lot of OCCs not listed. That leaves a lot of jobs civilians could take beyond care givers and educators and space farmers/ranchers.

It's not a time-bounded statement in the RPG.

How often are military developments developed by purely military personnel? CONSTANTLY in Robotech... not so much in the real world. Unlike the OSM, in Robotech all this alien technology was reverse engineered and developed by the military itself... by a secretive cabel of military scientists who are the only ones who actually know how this stuff works. Dr. Lang, Dr. Zand, Dr. Cochrane, etc.

Until then...

Until then there's still no evidence for their existence and Harmony Gold considers the dialog of the series to be a fallible source... meaning they're Schrodinger's space pirates. They may or may not actually exist until they're observed to exist or not exist.

That doesn't preclude the presence of civilian occupations.

No, but the canonical absence of civilians kinda does... just puttin' that out there.

How do we know Lang wasn't a doctor of engineering? And again the council was civilian.

In the OSM? Becuase his bio doesn't identify him as holding any title besides Chief Engineer and the rank of Major.

Remember, in the OSM his character was so minor he didn't have a name until an alternate version of the character was included in Macross the First (Major Gina Bartlow).

Actually civilians tended to follow the military. Families and traders would often go with or travel too the colony. There was also the native population that would gather around the base for protection and profit.

Camp followers are different from what we're talking about here...

Also doesn't appear to be does not mean that there are none. It just means that they're not generally visible. And even in plain sight they could be over looks. Is that clerk in the PX a soldier or a civilian?

No, but that it's given as a fact that Minmei was the sole civilian in space with the UEEF (and not intentionally at that) does kind of rule out the idea of civilian colonies. No civilians, no civilian colonies.

[Seto Kaiba]

Ark-Angel & Angel-class ships though aren't required for colony building though. If the UEEF can establish off-world facilities, then they can use those same techniques for colony building.

Theoretically, yes... but it's not as easy as all that in practical terms.

One civilian does not make a civilian colony no, but it still establishes a civilian presence on the mission. Children being on the mission who aren't soldiers (yet) would also be civilian.

Unless we're trying to make Lord of the Flies an unofficial Robotech side story, I don't think you could count the children of soldiers who grew up ON SHIPS as colonists.

[ShadowLogan]

Theoretically, yes... but it's not as easy as all that in practical terms.

True, but there are several factors to consider how easy it would be in practical terms:
-how fast you want the colony setup
-how large is the colony
-how many sites on a given taret world (do you build a single site or multiple smaller sites to spread risk)
-what your ship building capabilities look like, the UEEF/UEDF do not seem to have a shortage of "small" ships compared to the SDF-1, it was the larger ones (SDF-3/SDF-4/Tokagawa/Angels) that appear in smaller numbers.
-how reusuable do you want the ships (one-way or multi-trip?)
-how much risk do you want to put into a given ship (is it better to lose a single ship with 70k people and their colony equipment OR a couple of ships each with 10k people and their colony equipment)
-what the resources and conditions of the target world(s) look like
-how many people you have ready to go either as colonists or ship crew
-how self-sufficent do you want the colony to be
-how fast does it have to be made self sufficient
-can the colony even be self-sufficient (say a metal rich world good for mining, but poor for farming)
-how fast you want to get them there
-how far do they have to travel

These have to be considered even for the Angel classes I would think.

Unless we're trying to make Lord of the Flies an unofficial Robotech side story, I don't think you could count the children of soldiers who grew up ON SHIPS as colonists.

Colonists no, civilians yes. Though you could consider them and their parents (even if in the military) as colonists if they are seen as being in some type of "Ark" (space habitats, generational ships, etc) or surface facility.