The Masters, what space combat units do they have?

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Re: The Masters, what space combat units do they have?

Unread post by eliakon »

This also assumes that there were not some sort of failsafe systems in either the Zentradis mecha/ships (along the lines of the Recall Beam) or in their psychological programing (safe words or the like). We really have no idea at all how the Masters viewed the possibility of a Zentradi rebellion. Considering there displayed arrogance they may not have even considered it possible that their creations would rebel in the first place.....
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Re: The Masters, what space combat units do they have?

Unread post by Colonel Wolfe »

eliakon wrote:This also assumes that there were not some sort of failsafe systems in either the Zentradis mecha/ships (along the lines of the Recall Beam) or in their psychological programing (safe words or the like). We really have no idea at all how the Masters viewed the possibility of a Zentradi rebellion. Considering there displayed arrogance they may not have even considered it possible that their creations would rebel in the first place.....
Going by Zor Primes recalled memories and the other historical clues, the First Generation of Zents did rebel, and they were the ones possible responsible for Zor's first death, If they had a rebellion before, Safe-guard and psychological programming would be a must. If they equipped the Command ships the Zents use with "Recall beams" then there is little reason to believe they don't have the same tech, or worse. I would easily see them equipping the Zents wtih self-destruct systems that they alone could access, and any betrayal at all was met with death, could reinforce the fact Dolza murdered any Zents who became contaminated by "Culture"
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Re: The Masters, what space combat units do they have?

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Seto wrote:Again, that doesn't actually impact the offensive or defensive capabilities of the hardware.

Actually it does. It cuts into the pilots reaction time, which can mean their offensive and defensive capabilities are not being used to their fullest because the pilots take longer to perform a given task. So a Bioroid maybe very agile, but if the pilot is impaired that agility will be compromised. So will their ability to aim.

Seto wrote:At no point in the series do the Masters give any indication that they are withholding the usage of any of their weaponry, or reducing the power of said weaponry.

I have to disagree. The mere fact they have a shortage of Protoculture is going to dictate what they can use. The Masters display weaponry that is capable of doing a lot of damage on the ground, but they do not employ them indicating they are withholding use of said weapons prefering to use mass formations of bioroids.

Seto wrote:Its canon contemporaries are nowhere near as heavily armed as the Tristar-class is, and with only a few dozen built (and that few dozen ships apparently comprising the entirety of the UEDF fleet) that means your argument fundamentally doesn't follow from the evidence.

Where officially in canon are those contemporaries detailed? Aside from the Tokagawa, and NG-ships (which are basically transports), the other ASC warships seen in service aren't defined in canon (infoepdia) or the 2E RPG. I do think we are dealing with more than a few dozen ships though.

Seto wrote:What-ifs and might-bes are not especially convincing.

I would hardly call this a what if, since the show establishes the Elders are not with the Masters and the RM-vessel encountered in "Viva Miryia" was not with them either. Background information on the UEEF Bioroid Interceptor has it as using material recovered by the UEEF (which likely rules out Earth). So we know material and personnel where left behind by the Masters who came to Earth.

Seto wrote:The Masters never display any barrier technology comparable to the omnidirectional barrier system on the SDF-1, so that may be something Zor came up with personally or otherwise nonstandard equipment.

Can we be sure that the Omni-Barrier:
-is the system the Masters referred to
-that it was restored properly (they missed the booby trap that fired the main guns, they apparently screwed up the AntiGravity Pods, apparently Fold Systems don't have any fail safes)? Because if it was improperly restored, it may not look the same as a properly restored system.

Seto wrote:Possible, but we're talking raw firepower here, not psychological warfare.

But if they know of weakness in the technology that grants them that raw firepower, that raw firepower might end up neutralized before they can even use it since we don't know what safe guards the Masters have in place to allow them to deal with another large scale Zentreadi Rebellion.

Seto wrote:Possible, again, but the cycle time for a reflex cannon is pretty long and while a shot might kill a dozen or so warships... they've got five million more where that came from.

That only is an issue if the Masters don't have similarly large numbers of ships and the Zentreadi form up into one massive group on that scale. The Motherships don't operate alone after all. We know they have at least two different escort sized vessels, plus BACs. Then we have to consider if the SDF-1 had any sister vessels w/n the overall fleet (we know from TMS that the Masters have at least one other ship type that wasn't seen in TRM).

Seto wrote:That assumes, of course, that the Masters' gun turrets are of comparable capability to those of the Zentradi... no such case is made via the animation.

Why wouldn't they be? They are designated as "anti-ship/anti-mecha combat" which are distinct from the "point defense cannons".
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Re: The Masters, what space combat units do they have?

Unread post by Rabid Southern Cross Fan »

ShadowLogan wrote:I do think we are dealing with more than a few dozen ships though.


Boy, I guess it really is true that when someone repeats a statement they know to be a blatant lie often enough, they actually start to believe it.

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Re: The Masters, what space combat units do they have?

Unread post by Alrik Vas »

All of its still all your personal belief of what the masters do and could know. You can say your ideas wrap it all up nicely, but it doesn't actually prove anything. I'm not saying you're all wrong, because they don't go into detail about how the SDF-1's barrier was created, though if it was a logical next step from pin point barriers, which Lang can be credited with, then it follows the invention of these systems are independent and the masters assune, without knowing properly (much like we all are) that the humans know as much much, if not more, about Zor's ship as they do.

Still, the point stands that the SDF-1 pulled off the impossible when it and it's zentradi allies defeated Dolza's fleet. It isn't an illustration of how the master's war capability is greater then their clone army. More than anything, it's an example of how a singing teenage girl gave humans an opportunity to save what was left of their species.

If the Robotech masters attempted to fight a war against the zentradi with their assault carriers, bioroids, infantry and ships, they'd get reduced to space debris pretty quick unless they could simply control them into rolling over and taking it...which is what the earth forces did for the first minute or so of their battle over a burned out Earth during force of arms.
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Re: The Masters, what space combat units do they have?

Unread post by Colonel Wolfe »

It's not just "personal belief" when there is dialog and story support for the idea.
I still don't see how one can prove the Master's would have knowledge of a system that wasn't installed onboard the ship when it was in their possession. a system they believe would allow a single ship to defeat 4 million ships on its own (do the impossible). a Singing Girl may be the answer in Macross, but Robotechs story takes a different route.
as Shadowlogan illustrated above, the Humans knew nothing about the booby-trap system, how the properly fold the ship or use the anti-grave systems... The Boobytrap system is proof that an entire system could be present and the humans have zero clue about what it is until it is turned on. And I've yet to find dialog that directly credits lang with the omni-barrier system...
and Logic dictates if they built a re-call system into the Zentradi-ships for them to use to control one-another, they would have the same systems. We can't prove such a system exists being the Earth defeated the Zentrad, but it follows a logical and common sense approach to the story.
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Re: The Masters, what space combat units do they have?

Unread post by taalismn »

Tiered recall ability.
Khyron didn't figure on Breetai using the mecha recall ability on his troops. Stands to reason the Masters might have a more powerful(or at least similar) system written into the construction templates of Zentraedi ships, and damned few Zentraedi knowing of it(and of those, I doubt they had long lifespans after the system was used to rein them in).
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Re: The Masters, what space combat units do they have?

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

actually a recall ability might be problematic in stopping zentreadi from rebelling. the recall doesn't disable the mecha, it just engages an autopilot.

but a shutdown command, like the cylons used against the colonials in Battlestar Galactica's pilot miniseries? that would make the master's very powerful.
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Re: The Masters, what space combat units do they have?

Unread post by taalismn »

glitterboy2098 wrote:actually a recall ability might be problematic in stopping zentreadi from rebelling. the recall doesn't disable the mecha, it just engages an autopilot.

but a shutdown command, like the cylons used against the colonials in Battlestar Galactica's pilot miniseries? that would make the master's very powerful.



The robotch fanfic 'Ashes of Empire' makes good use of such a shutdown in the hands of a Stasi-like elite branch of the Zentraedi....only the grunt-Zentraedi figure out a way around it, just enough to give the Blackshirts some bloody noses when they were expecting a mow-down clean-up.
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Re: The Masters, what space combat units do they have?

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

Colonel Wolfe wrote:as Shadowlogan illustrated above, the Humans knew nothing about the booby-trap system, how the properly fold the ship or use the anti-grave systems...


actually the canon comics say otherwise about gravity control.
the mars base story in "invasion" establishes a few facts.
The grand canon is a modified reflex furnace that uses gravity generators to help create and shape the beam. Mars base Sera had a small prototype of the design for testing. it's described as drawing extra energy from the gravity of the planet, and then using rings of gravity generators to confine and shape the beam to release all the energy in "one synchronous burst"
this suggests a fairly high degree of understanding of the artificial gravity antigravity technologies brough by the SDF-1. including how to build new devices. (backed up by the fact the ARMD's (in from the stars) and Oberths (in invasion) are shown as having artificial gravity and decks laid out in such a way as to require some form of inertial dampening (since the decks are angled parallel to the main axis of thrust)

near the end of the story you also have Admiral Hayes at the grand cannon receiving a letter from Lang (who is at the SDF-1) talking about how Lang's team has modified the SDF-1 gravity systems.. to rechannel power away from the deck artificial gravity (said to be due to a human sized crew needing less than a giant sized crew), and into the antigravity systems to increase their output. the letter also says that some on langs team had doubts as to whether the SDF-1's hull and frame would be able to take the strain of the extra power in use.

so basically, the Anti-gravity pods ripping free had nothing to do with incompetence with antigravity.. rather it represented the result of engineers that were very competent with the tech giving the antigravity system the Tim Taylor Treatment.. with disastrous results totally fitting the trope.

kinda makes me wonder if their team of consultants included Tim Taylor from home improvement and Jeremy Clarkson of topgear.. with maybe the mythbusters as well..
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Re: The Masters, what space combat units do they have?

Unread post by Colonel Wolfe »

glitterboy2098 wrote:
Colonel Wolfe wrote:as Shadowlogan illustrated above, the Humans knew nothing about the booby-trap system, how the properly fold the ship or use the anti-grave systems...


actually the canon comics say otherwise about gravity control.
The rarity of these comics makes them problematic.. Looks like a move to make Lang look less incompetent than he was in the series.... (only partially, compared to near completely)
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Re: The Masters, what space combat units do they have?

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

Colonel Wolfe wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:
Colonel Wolfe wrote:as Shadowlogan illustrated above, the Humans knew nothing about the booby-trap system, how the properly fold the ship or use the anti-grave systems...


actually the canon comics say otherwise about gravity control.
The rarity of these comics makes them problematic.. Looks like a move to make Lang look less incompetent than he was in the series.... (only partially, compared to near completely)


given he was never made to look incompetent in any form in the series, and even the old canon had his as the one man behind every bit of amazing technology humanity deployed, i'm not sure where you get that idea..
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Re: The Masters, what space combat units do they have?

Unread post by taalismn »

glitterboy2098 wrote:[

given he was never made to look incompetent in any form in the series, and even the old canon had his as the one man behind every bit of amazing technology humanity deployed, i'm not sure where you get that idea..



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Re: The Masters, what space combat units do they have?

Unread post by Colonel Wolfe »

glitterboy2098 wrote:given he was never made to look incompetent in any form in the series, and even the old canon had his as the one man behind every bit of amazing technology humanity deployed, i'm not sure where you get that idea..
to avoid derailing this topic... It's a debate for another topic, but its in the show, he is responsible, along with Gloval, for the deaths of billions.
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Re: The Masters, what space combat units do they have?

Unread post by Colonel Wolfe »

taalismn wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:[

given he was never made to look incompetent in any form in the series, and even the old canon had his as the one man behind every bit of amazing technology humanity deployed, i'm not sure where you get that idea..



"So, what did you do with that stress analysis file on the retaining bulkheads over the anti-gravity generators I submitted to you?"
"I don't know which ones you're talking about."(close-up of the paper wrapping the greasy grinder he's eating)
"you at least have the Thumb-drive with the files on it?"
"that drive? I copied season 5 of My little pony friendship is magic over all the files on that drive.... my daughter loves the show"
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"about that, I installed Windows Vista on the mainframe and it formatted all the storage, every file but 'boobytrap.exe' is gone"
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Re: The Masters, what space combat units do they have?

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

Colonel Wolfe wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:given he was never made to look incompetent in any form in the series, and even the old canon had his as the one man behind every bit of amazing technology humanity deployed, i'm not sure where you get that idea..
to avoid derailing this topic... It's a debate for another topic, but its in the show, he is responsible, along with Gloval, for the deaths of billions.


that's a bit like saying that Einstein was incompetent because Hiroshima was nuked.

it says nothing about competence. everything in the show indicates Lang is a major Genius, capable of amazing feats of inventiona and reverse engineering on short notice.
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Re: The Masters, what space combat units do they have?

Unread post by Colonel Wolfe »

glitterboy2098 wrote:
Colonel Wolfe wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:given he was never made to look incompetent in any form in the series, and even the old canon had his as the one man behind every bit of amazing technology humanity deployed, i'm not sure where you get that idea..
to avoid derailing this topic... It's a debate for another topic, but its in the show, he is responsible, along with Gloval, for the deaths of billions.


that's a bit like saying that Einstein was incompetent because Hiroshima was nuked.
Lang was chief engineer on the SDF-1 when he allowed a boobytrapped subroutine to fire the first shots against the Zentraadi. His failure to catch that caused the War.
His failures to properly understand the Anti-grav system also caused the ship to be crippled, his failure with the fold system stranded them deep in space, his failure with understanding the Barrier system on the SDF-1 caused it to destroy part of Canada, most of his "success" was via accident or claiming the pre-existing systems as his own. Even the VF-1 his prize jewel wasn't up to the task, so he had to bolt on more and more armor and weapons... no wonder the UEG canceled his YF-4 design and went with the Alpha for the next 25 years.. I don't think this si the topic to really debate this in, but feel free to cntinue. I don't enjoy debating opnions based on evidence in the show, but my opinion is Lang is a hack who has been given way to much credit...
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Re: The Masters, what space combat units do they have?

Unread post by Rabid Southern Cross Fan »

Boy, I guess its totally weird that The Masters have the omni-directional barrier as shown in Prelude to Battle...

Also, I'm supposed to believe that The Masters, who use The Mistresses of the Cosmic Harp to control/direct their clones somehow cannot use the SAME system on the Zentraedi....who were defeated by a Chinese girl singing?
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