SWAG Energy Conversion Armor & other defensive features

[Sparticus]

So I have the new Marines book and am at a point that I can launch a long awaited and very ambitious game for my players which will space for quite some time. Be for I begin however I have need to finalize a few little items to add a little more flavor to my game. I am a big fan of Macross/Robotech and after watching many of the macros animes as well as looking over several of my old first run Palladium Robotech books I have decided to incorporate some new features to the UEEF as well as bring back some older ones.

First is a new feature called SWAG Energy Conversion Armor.

Introduced first I think in Macross Zero but might have been mentioned before it’s the armor that just about everything the humans crate is made out of. It takes the excess energy crated by the ship’s & mecha’s power systems and put it in the armor drastically increasing its strength. This is how a fighter can have armor that withstands crashing through several buildings and make a tank looked like there armored in tinfoil. Now I am not going to just increases MDC values but instead give all UEEF/Human mecha damage mitigation or basically damage reduction. Essentially all UEEF mecha this includes Cyclones, Veritechs, Destroieds ect as well as starships take HALF damage from all weapons that strikes them. This will also apply to the Robotech Masters and explains how the thinner armor of their Bioroids could withstand damage like they did. Older UEDF mecha reduce damage by 25% or a quarter as do the Sothern Cross mecha and ships whose power systems cannot provide enough energy for the full 50% damage reduction.

Next up is the Pin-Point Barrier System.

I am going to include this on all UEEF starships as a defensive system that can be used instead of the Full Barrier Shield as the full shield blocks weapons fire as well as mecha from being launched. The size of the ship will determan how many barriers the ship will have. A Garfish will have 3 pin-point barriers while Shimikaze battlecruisers and Ikazuchi command carriers have six pin-point barriers and larger ships like the SDF-3, Liberator class battlefortress and Archangel class colony fortress have twelve pin-point barriers. I was also interntaning the idea of the pin-point barriers reducing the amount of damage they take between 25% to 50% but I am inclined to just say they take damage as normal.

Finally the Omni-directional defensive barrier

Also known as the full barrier system this fully encompassing shield system can only be found of UEEF starship ranging from the Shimikaze battlecruisers and Ikazuchi command carriers as well as the larger SDF-3, Liberator class battlefortress and Archangel class colony fortress. This powerful defense system is a two way shield, meaning that while up the ship cannot attack or launch fighters. A useful system to survive a barrage while trying to make an escape or to survive some form of calamity or impact. The shield can be lowered and raised quickly to the ship could attack and launch mecha but only half of what it normally could as it has to arise the shield again that it just lowered. Like the pin-point barrier I have yet to decide whether or not the shield take between 25% to 50% but am inclined to just say they take damage as normal.

Any thought or ideas of how I could improve or implement these ideas is welcomed.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

First is a new feature called SWAG Energy Conversion Armor.

Has nothing to do with Robotech. SWAG is an ex post facto creation by Shoji Kawamori and zero bearing on Robotech. Please understand that Robotech =/= Macross. In all honesty, Robotech fans came up with the idea that mecha in Robotech are armored with a low-mass composite laminate that is basically like a super-lightweight Chobham. There is nothing wrong with that as there are other anime like Mobile Suit Gundam (Universal Century) that have a history of including real-world developments like Chobham Armor, etc into the technology canon.

As for Pin-Point Barriers/Omni-Directional Barriers, Robotech starships in the later eras already have shields of some sort (dialogue from Outsiders). Horizon-class Troop Shuttles have something called Thermal Energy Shields, which presumably helps to protect the shuttlecraft during reentry.

[glitterboy2098]

also keep in mind.. discussion of how to replicate the SWAG system in RPG stats is a conversion, and thus falls under rule #6

6. Conversions
Posting the conversion (adaptation) of non-Palladium intellectual property to the Palladium Books game system will not be tolerated. Sorry. And in the same way,
Palladium property may not be converted to other game systems. For a longer explanation of this policy, read on.

and don't forget rabid, prelude has the SDF-3 equipped with some form of shields as well. Lisa orders them up when one of Edwards's shadow fighters makes the attack run on the SDF-3's bridge. the exact nature of them however is not shown in either example.

[Sparticus]

also keep in mind.. discussion of how to replicate the SWAG system in RPG stats is a conversion, and thus falls under rule #6

6. Conversions
Posting the conversion (adaptation) of non-Palladium intellectual property to the Palladium Books game system will not be tolerated. Sorry. And in the same way,
Palladium property may not be converted to other game systems. For a longer explanation of this policy, read on.

and don't forget rabid, prelude has the SDF-3 equipped with some form of shields as well. Lisa orders them up when one of Edwards's shadow fighters makes the attack run on the SDF-3's bridge. the exact nature of them however is not shown in either example.

Ok forget the armor I found something that will do as I want already in the palladium setting lets just focus on the shields. I read the comic what I’m looking to do is try an implement the shields in my games. Now I think both systems exist on the SDF-1 in the Macross book however this could be a bassline. Taken into account the 30 or so years the systems had potentially been researched and refunded how mite similar systems function on modern UEEF ships.

[Sparticus]

First is a new feature called SWAG Energy Conversion Armor.

Has nothing to do with Robotech. SWAG is an ex post facto creation by Shoji Kawamori and zero bearing on Robotech. Please understand that Robotech =/= Macross. In all honesty, Robotech fans came up with the idea that mecha in Robotech are armored with a low-mass composite laminate that is basically like a super-lightweight Chobham. There is nothing wrong with that as there are other anime like Mobile Suit Gundam (Universal Century) that have a history of including real-world developments like Chobham Armor, etc into the technology canon.

As for Pin-Point Barriers/Omni-Directional Barriers, Robotech starships in the later eras already have shields of some sort (dialogue from Outsiders). Horizon-class Troop Shuttles have something called Thermal Energy Shields, which presumably helps to protect the shuttlecraft during reentry.

Ok I can go with that for the armor composition and yes the Horizon do have a type of thermal shield with makes atmospheric reentry a lot more tolerable and less damaging to the ship but that’s not the same as energy type shields designed and intended to repel massive amounts of directed energy from energy type weapon systems.

I am also fully aware of what Robotech is and how it differs from Macross. I also know the two other animes mixed in to make Robotech. I was just looking to one of the animes that Robotech was born out of for potential ideas for new technologies or other inspirations. Is what I did back when I was leading players through the 1st Edition of Robotech books to keep the games interesting and change things up for the players. Hell I once brought in stuff from the three galaxies as potential experimental or prototype technologies for use on Mecha or Starships.

[glitterboy2098]

you gotta understand we get a lot of people who don't know the difference between the two, so when we're not sure we tend to stray to the "probably doesn't know" approach just to be safe.

and the conversion thing was purely for your protection.. conversion related violations of the rules tend to be smacked down hard by the moderators. (and it doesn't help that the link to the forum rules is hard to find, so it is easy to overlook them when your newer.)

[taalismn]

[

As for Pin-Point Barriers/Omni-Directional Barriers, Robotech starships in the later eras already have shields of some sort (dialogue from Outsiders). Horizon-class Troop Shuttles have something called Thermal Energy Shields, which presumably helps to protect the shuttlecraft during reentry.

Didn't first-edition Gnerls have something similar, owing to mis-interpretation of the thermal bowshocks seen during their first appearance on re-entry attacking Macross Island?

[Tiree]

I was thinking about this... If I was going to do some sort of Engine Energy to Armor conversion, I would go with something like a renewable point management.

So whatever value of points is used for movement and additional armor. It renews every round. The player decides how much movement, and the rest goes into 'extra' armor. Now with that, it is clear why Battloid is more powerful than Fighter Mode. Because it can't go as fast, and therefore dictates that it powers more armor.

Just scale it to however you want and go from there...

[Seto Kaiba]

First is a new feature called SWAG Energy Conversion Armor.

As others have already noted, this technology does not exist in Robotech... and conversions from IP Palladium doesn't have a license to are expressly prohibited on the boards.

Introduced first I think in Macross Zero but might have been mentioned before it’s the armor that just about everything the humans crate is made out of.

It was introduced far before that, Macross Zero was just the first time in the Macross universe it was explicitly talked about in a show.

This is how a fighter can have armor that withstands crashing through several buildings and make a tank looked like there armored in tinfoil.

Only part of it, really... in Macross, mecha and ships are still made from super-tough advanced composite materials that were (initially) reverse-engineered from the alien wreck. Energy conversion armor is only properly energized in battroid mode*, so those crashes you see in GERWALK or fighter mode where the plane is practically unscratched are almost entirely on the physical armor's durability.

Next up is the Pin-Point Barrier System.

WRT Robotech, this technology and the omnidirectional barrier were both abandoned in favor of your generic sci-fi shields... though said shields do not actually appear at any point. The latter was probably abandoned because of its nasty tendency to blow up... (though in Macross, that problem was sorted out fairly swiftly after the war).



* Except on select 5th Generation VFs using Stage II thermonuclear reaction turbine engines, which produce enough of a surplus to utilize energy conversion armor in fighter mode and/or have fold dimension resonance systems (YF-29, YF-30).

[glitterboy2098]

[

As for Pin-Point Barriers/Omni-Directional Barriers, Robotech starships in the later eras already have shields of some sort (dialogue from Outsiders). Horizon-class Troop Shuttles have something called Thermal Energy Shields, which presumably helps to protect the shuttlecraft during reentry.

Didn't first-edition Gnerls have something similar, owing to mis-interpretation of the thermal bowshocks seen during their first appearance on re-entry attacking Macross Island?

yep. which in practice worked kinda like a weaker, fixed forward version of the pinpoint barrier.

in the Robotech Invasion video game, the invid had a forcefield 'bubble' as well, that could be mounted on mecha. mostly the commander and overlord mecha.

in the canon, it would not be hard to believe that the UEEF had, by late 2030's, some form of conformal energy barrier for its bigger ships. probably too bulky to fit on mecha though. horizonts would seem to be the smallest platform.

actually, i could see such a technology growing out of the Master's energy shields we see in Master's saga.. those seem to lack the explosive nature of the barrier shields used by the SDF-1, and could be made to produce something other than a simple bubble around the ship.

as far as the barrier shields for robotech.. given those were making use of some weird side effect found in the empty fold drive mount (after the SDF-1's drives vanished), the pinpoint and full barrier shields may have been exploiting hyperspace (the dimension that, by canon dialog, fold drives allow the ship to travel through), effectively absorbing energy from enemy fire and dumping it into higher dimensions of our universe. which would explain why the full barrier shield blew up much like a Langston Field does in The Mote in God's Eye.. it was taking too much energy, had it stored, and couldn't dump it fast enough. resulting in the energy blasting outward like a bomb.

oddly that would seem to be how a lot of shadow technology works.. giving access to higher dimensions of space/time in order to do tricks not possible in perceptible space/time.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

yep. which in practice worked kinda like a weaker, fixed forward version of the pinpoint barrier.

in the Robotech Invasion video game, the invid had a forcefield 'bubble' as well, that could be mounted on mecha. mostly the commander and overlord mecha.

The Jack McKinney novelizations of The Sentinels (maybe even End of the Circle now that I think about it) had the Alpha & Beta (at least) having a Star Wars-style deflector shield setup....

[Sparticus]

So it seems there are two ways to go about this.

One the ships can be given the generic sci-fi shields. If going this rout what are some good values to assign to the following ship classes
1. Garfish class Light Cruiser
2. Shimikaze class Battlecruiser
3. Ikazuchi class command carrier
4. Liberator class Battlefortress

On the other hand if going the rout of the pin-point barriers how many barriers for the individual ship classes.
1. Three Barriers
2. Four Barriers
3. More that this if the ships is very large like a battlefortress.

[Seto Kaiba]

One the ships can be given the generic sci-fi shields. If going this rout what are some good values to assign to the following ship classes
1. Garfish class Light Cruiser
2. Shimikaze class Battlecruiser
3. Ikazuchi class command carrier
4. Liberator class Battlefortress

Er... I'm not really sure if we're allowed to talk stats for something like that, on account of the no-conversions rule.

Just in general, show-related terms, the generic sci-fi shields mentioned (but never seen) in the show seem to be as ineffective as they are invisible. They don't seem to stop the Invid from ramming ships or anything like that. (Maybe like Star Wars's ray shields, where they only stop beam weapons?)

On the other hand if going the rout of the pin-point barriers how many barriers for the individual ship classes.
1. Three Barriers
2. Four Barriers
3. More that this if the ships is very large like a battlefortress.

The SDF-1 could only produce 3... so I'd assume generating any at all would be beyond any non-battlefortress ship.

[ShadowLogan]

Didn't first-edition Gnerls have something similar, owing to mis-interpretation of the thermal bowshocks seen during their first appearance on re-entry attacking Macross Island?

1E had the Gnerl Fighter Pod and the Glaug Officer's Pod Booster Sled Unit (forget the name off hand). Zentreadi source book also alludes to prototype systems being tried out by the RDF on other Zentreadi mecha to increase protection (it sacrificed being able to use weapons though). Then you have the CADS-1 system that effectively acts as a force field, IIRC the 1E Enforcer (man-sized/shaped unit) had a shield w/force field to.

IIRC the Gnerl/Sled shields can be seen as a result of dialogue in "Bursting Point" IIRC.

WRT Robotech, this technology and the omnidirectional barrier were both abandoned in favor of your generic sci-fi shields... though said shields do not actually appear at any point. The latter was probably abandoned because of its nasty tendency to blow up... (though in Macross, that problem was sorted out fairly swiftly after the war).

Lack of display though in RT for generic shields may not be all that unusual though for the time period it was produced though, most wouldn't become visible unless stress was placed on it, and even then it might not "appear" at least for popular sci-fi that likely influenced the staff writers.

One the ships can be given the generic sci-fi shields. If going this rout what are some good values to assign to the following ship classes
1. Garfish class Light Cruiser
2. Shimikaze class Battlecruiser
3. Ikazuchi class command carrier
4. Liberator class Battlefortress

Off hand I'm not sure. You might want to take a look at Rifts: Phase World books to get an idea here or look back at the 1E RT books to get an idea (SDF-1, SDF-3, Ikazuchi, Invid Scorpian Carrier, Masters Mothership) and work from there. Game Stat posting in the RT section, even speculative like this, is very restricted.

[Seto Kaiba]

WRT Robotech, this technology and the omnidirectional barrier were both abandoned in favor of your generic sci-fi shields... though said shields do not actually appear at any point. The latter was probably abandoned because of its nasty tendency to blow up... (though in Macross, that problem was sorted out fairly swiftly after the war).

Lack of display though in RT for generic shields may not be all that unusual though for the time period it was produced though, most wouldn't become visible unless stress was placed on it, and even then it might not "appear" at least for popular sci-fi that likely influenced the staff writers.

Even on the occasions when we've seen allegedly-shielded ships under fire, the shields are never visible... not even in HG-produced animation and comics. They mention shields, but the shields don't seem to be capable of actually offering any protection from enemy weapons fire or prevent enemies from making contact with the ship.

[eliakon]

WRT Robotech, this technology and the omnidirectional barrier were both abandoned in favor of your generic sci-fi shields... though said shields do not actually appear at any point. The latter was probably abandoned because of its nasty tendency to blow up... (though in Macross, that problem was sorted out fairly swiftly after the war).

Lack of display though in RT for generic shields may not be all that unusual though for the time period it was produced though, most wouldn't become visible unless stress was placed on it, and even then it might not "appear" at least for popular sci-fi that likely influenced the staff writers.

Even on the occasions when we've seen allegedly-shielded ships under fire, the shields are never visible... not even in HG-produced animation and comics. They mention shields, but the shields don't seem to be capable of actually offering any protection from enemy weapons fire or prevent enemies from making contact with the ship.

Or the shields may just simply weaken the energy beams that hit the ship....It doesn't have to be visible to work...
Of course to do this works best with a damage reduction style armor not damage capacity, but it could still work just fine....
maybe the shields have a capacity of X DC and can absorb up to Y% of incoming energy blasts. Better shields have a higher value of Y

[Seto Kaiba]

Or the shields may just simply weaken the energy beams that hit the ship....

That'd make them pretty much useless then, wouldn't it?

Humanity's enemies in Robotech employ both energy and missile weapons on a literally apocalyptic scale. Unless you outright block the beam, you're going to end up with a great big hole in your ship (or completely vaporized). The barrier technology seen in the Macross Saga was capable of completely blocking incoming fire from beams and missiles alike. It could be overloaded, but that was still comprehensive protection. We've never actually seen these shields stop ANY kind of attack... to the extent that many fans don't remember they're even supposed to be there.

It doesn't have to be visible to work...

True, but the normal visual convention in sci-fi is that the shield effect is somehow visible either all the time or at least when that shield is actively preventing damage.

[ShadowLogan]

WRT Robotech, this technology and the omnidirectional barrier were both abandoned in favor of your generic sci-fi shields... though said shields do not actually appear at any point. The latter was probably abandoned because of its nasty tendency to blow up... (though in Macross, that problem was sorted out fairly swiftly after the war).

Lack of display though in RT for generic shields may not be all that unusual though for the time period it was produced though, most wouldn't become visible unless stress was placed on it, and even then it might not "appear" at least for popular sci-fi that likely influenced the staff writers.

Even on the occasions when we've seen allegedly-shielded ships under fire, the shields are never visible... not even in HG-produced animation and comics. They mention shields, but the shields don't seem to be capable of actually offering any protection from enemy weapons fire or prevent enemies from making contact with the ship.

1. we could take the view point of lazy editing. Remember post TMS (in 85p), even though ships are said to Fold/de-fold nothing visually suggests it. If HG wanted to during the original editing process (or even the remastered and pulled a Lucas) they probably could have added in some effects in if they wanted to (they did have to put in new credits/episode title cards even back in '85). As for non-85ep works, no idea. Though IINM both Star Trek: TOS and Star Wars (pre-special edition) where not consistent in displaying shield use, though mention them and those two properties likely had some influence on the writers.
2. we could take the view point the shields just collapsed so fast we cannot see it, or the beams frequency is (coincidently or by design) such that it is allowed to pass through (if it didn't you could end up with a cloak)
3. we could take the view point the "shields" are physical constructs not full-on energy in some cases. Ex, Marlene references "reserve thermal energy shield" in Ep61. The system might not be an actual energy shield, but them describing the physical re-entry shield to protect them from the heat (thermal energy) and they are just throwing out techno-babble to fill lip time (something Macek in Legacy Extras mentioned they DID DO).
4. we could take the view point the "shields" are partly physical and partly energy based such as Macross's SWAG or ST:E's Polarized Plating, etc. Something the 1E RPG might have done with 2 NG-era designs.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Or they are plasma in the non-glow discharge mode....so they wouldn't be visible anyway....

[glitterboy2098]

actually, given that most of the badguy weapons in robotech are particlebeam and plasma systems, it might be a magnetic field system to degrade and deflect attacks. NASA has been looking into the same sorts of technology for protection of it's spacecraft.. in space the magnetic field helps protect from cosmic radiation and such, similar fields can also be used during re-entry to control the plasma generated by the vehicle's passage through the atmosphere, the magnetic fields keep the plasma from reaching the hull. which reduces the thermal issues and reduces the need for a heavy ablative plating.

http://phys.org/news/2009-11-supercondu ... hield.html
http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/new ... spacecraft

the army has been researching using magnetic fields to degrade the plasma jets of shaped charge ATGM's as well, as well as triggering detonators prematurely. so it could offer some protection against missile attacks as well.

AUGG has a magnetic shield device in the spaceship section that might be worth looking at for stats. it basically reduces the damage of plasma, ion, and particlebeam weapons, and has a chance to prevent missiles from hitting. (AUGG, pg177)

[Seto Kaiba]

1. we could take the view point of lazy editing.

Or, more likely, it's an artifact of Robotech's painfully rushed production process. The writers were working to a schedule that was so tight they didn't have time to check that what they were writing was internally consistent, logical, or that it actually matched the animation.

4. we could take the view point the "shields" are partly physical and partly energy based such as Macross's SWAG or ST:E's Polarized Plating, etc. Something the 1E RPG might have done with 2 NG-era designs.

That's not really a shield though... that's just armor. Both of those examples are purely physical phenomena, via "smart" materials whose resistance to damage (impact, temperature change, etc.) increases when they're exposed to electromagnetic fields of certain frequencies and intensities.*

It's not like a Star Trek structural integrity field, or the GN composite armor from Gundam 00, which is a physical armor or structural material reinforced by running a force field between layers of the physical material.

actually, given that most of the badguy weapons in robotech are particlebeam and plasma systems, it might be a magnetic field system to degrade and deflect attacks.

Considering the UEEF ships of the New Generation, allegedly more advanced than those of the UEDF, burn up on reentry... that does not seem like a likely possibility.




* References for this are Macross Chronicle Technology Sheet 01E, Star Trek Monthly #87's interview with franchise science consultant/writer Andre Bormanis.

[glitterboy2098]

funny, they were reentering just fine until invid kamikazi'd them. scott was concerned the one his girlfriend was on was coming in too fast, but it became a moot point.

[ShadowLogan]

Or, more likely, it's an artifact of Robotech's painfully rushed production process. The writers were working to a schedule that was so tight they didn't have time to check that what they were writing was internally consistent, logical, or that it actually matched the animation.

I would put that under the editing process though. Ep38 "False Start" literally reordered the scenes from the OSM version to work with what was written. Ep37 is a pure splice job for what was written. They managed to edit in several scenes from SDC:SC into SDF:M over several episodes. In Ep39 you have the "dark sky" edit job to compared to SDC:SC version (remastered). Plus the visual track editing for broadcast standards and other bits being taken out. The idea the schedule was to tight to make checks and such just falls apart when you consider the work involved. Not to mention when they did the re-mastered version they could have taken the time to fix some of these issues with dialogue vs visuals.

That's not really a shield though... that's just armor. Both of those examples are purely physical phenomena, via "smart" materials whose resistance to damage (impact, temperature change, etc.) increases when they're exposed to electromagnetic fields of certain frequencies and intensities.*

I agree that is what they are, but it is possible they are playing fast and lose with terminology again (Langrange Point 6), or for whatever reason characters think of the energized material as being closer to a "shield" and just "armor". It doesn't necessarily have to be air tight explanation, given the period and target audience.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

in space the magnetic field helps protect from cosmic radiation and such

Which is just plasma in the non-glow discharge mode....

[glitterboy2098]

in space the magnetic field helps protect from cosmic radiation and such

Which is just plasma in the non-glow discharge mode....

actually cosmic radiation is high energy protons. so more "non focused particle beam" really.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_ray
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_th ... osmic_rays

hard to block with physical shielding. earth's magnetosphere helps shield from them for our manned missions. but they've been a big concern for planned Mars missions and such.

they are also one of the big reasons our interplanetary probes use electronics with pre-pentium processing.. hardening against cosmic rays requires you to sacrifice nearly all of the design that allows for rapid processing. and physical shielding is kinda hit or miss.. generally if its thick enough it weighs too much, too thin and you make things worse because the side effect of cosmic ray impacts is a spray of more conventional hard radiation.

[Seto Kaiba]

I would put that under the editing process though.

Maybe, but now we're just splitting hairs.

I agree that is what they are, but it is possible they are playing fast and lose with terminology again (Langrange Point 6), or for whatever reason characters think of the energized material as being closer to a "shield" and just "armor". It doesn't necessarily have to be air tight explanation, given the period and target audience.

Eh... it's not often that Robotech plays "fast and loose" with terminology. The rank system is one of the few examples of that, IMO... being that it was cobbled together on the fly. When it comes to terminology, normally we get either obvious errors (e.g. the "look out for the missile!" line or misattribution of actions to different characters) or cases where the writers obviously don't really know what they words they're using mean (e.g. the Invid being "protoplasmic life forms").

When it comes to shields, the impression I'm left with from the material is some writer trying to artificially add drama without first stopping to see if what he was doing made any logical sense with the animation.

[Jefffar]

So yeah been a busy week, finally got around to looking at what's on the docket.

This thread is locked due to conversion of copywritten IP to Palladium.

No warnings at this time as the initial offence seemed to be an honest mistake, just don't do it again.