Robotech ships versus the Three Galaxies

[Alrik Vas]

But...as far as the original post and questions I brought up earlier...I get physics is real and all, but can someone point out why the 3G ships are taken to be more maneuverable than RT ships? Never got an answer.

I'm PMing you about the Logan.

Re: to your question here. Probably because in RT their agility is likely based on the animation, where PW doesn't have that limitation. Plus PW setting makes Space Fold Drives unreliable IIRC (though it may just be the 3G hasn't figured out how to properly Fold given the Intruders use Space Folding) so RT ships overall mobility is much less.

The supposition in that explanation makes me highly suspect. It seems to translate to, "each GM can make the PW ships as maneuverable as they want."

Of course, golden rule, but nothing you said speaks of the PW ships officially being more maneuverable

[Seto Kaiba]

There is at least one block in PW that uses Space-Fold technology (The Intruders found spread out in DB3), apparently w/o difficulty. Which makes me think it may come down more to a level of technological maturity with the systems from an engineering standpoint than anything else. After all jet engines are more reliable now than they where in the 40. RT/M2 fall in to the category of technological maturity given the age of the systems.

True, I suppose one would have to say that the various versions of fold technology in Macross and Robotech are fairly mature... being that they've been in use for hundreds of millennia. The matter of speed, or a relative approximation thereof, is a major issue with comparison though. Robotech is very vague on it thanks to also being fairly vague on the subject of where their destinations and points of origin usually are, and in Macross it's usually "almost instant" but varies based on a number of local factors.

Robotech the one clear-cut case of range-vs-time is a fold trip from another galaxy...

And with a fuel crunch to boot, which further suggests the range/time is a matter of available energy/fuel and nothing else.

Which would put it on a more level footing with its Macross counterpart... where the available energy for the drive is the chief constraint on its range.

actually the concept of the limit would be from Episode 30: "Viva Miriya", where Breetai's flagship had dropped out of fold part way to the factory sat. which is why they found the wrecked zent "scout" ship Lisa hayes wanted to investigate.

They never actually establish that the ship HAD to make multiple folds to get there... and in the Robotech version of the dialog they establish that the factory satellite made it back to Earth-Moon L5 in only ONE fold operation.

(The original Macross gives a reason for the multiple fold jumps... to ensure that they didn't accidentally give an enemy force any easy-to-follow course back to Earth. It was pure dumb luck that they wandered into a debris field from a recent battle against the Supervision Army.)

the distance numbers would seem to be based on the narrators comments at 11:30 minutes in.. when breetai's ship folds in to the factory sat's location, it's described as "hundreds of parsecs from earth"

You've made an omission from that line of dialog that overturns your statement... namely, that line starts with "Across the galaxies".

Galaxies. PLURAL. Assuming they came from the nearest galaxy to Earth, that's over 20,000 light years. If they came from other near neighbors that are further away, that could be 100,000 light years or more.

and Seto, as i have pointed out time and again the nearest galaxy to the milky way is actually only a few hundred light years.
the Canis Major Dwarf Galaxy has stretched out streamers of stars interpenetrating the disc of the milkyway, as does the larger Saggitarious Dwarf galaxy. both have parts that pass through very close to our solar system.

This information is no less incorrect than the last time you attempted to cite it, I'm afraid.

According to NASA, the Canis Major dwarf galaxy is between 22,000 and 28,000 light years from Earth... and its status as a galaxy remains in dispute, as some researchers allege it to be a distorted part of the Milky Way's galactic halo. The next nearest would be Saggitarius Dwarf Spheroidal, at approximately 70,000 light years from Earth. 22,000 is a lot more than "a few hundred".

[glitterboy2098]

But...as far as the original post and questions I brought up earlier...I get physics is real and all, but can someone point out why the 3G ships are taken to be more maneuverable than RT ships? Never got an answer.

because their speed write ups are using the same system as robotech fighters. and robotech fighters are way more agile than the ships. ergo, the phase world ships will be more maneuverable than the robotech warships, because phase world ships manuever more like robotech fighters. fleets of the 3 galaxies more or less supports this, it makes little distinction between the big ships of phaseworld and the small ships/fighters of phase world in regards to maneuvering.

[devillin]

But...as far as the original post and questions I brought up earlier...I get physics is real and all, but can someone point out why the 3G ships are taken to be more maneuverable than RT ships? Never got an answer.

because their speed write ups are using the same system as robotech fighters. and robotech fighters are way more agile than the ships. ergo, the phase world ships will be more maneuverable than the robotech warships, because phase world ships manuever more like robotech fighters. fleets of the 3 galaxies more or less supports this, it makes little distinction between the big ships of phaseworld and the small ships/fighters of phase world in regards to maneuvering.

Also, like so many others have noted, when they put the stats together for the 2E of Robotech, PB decided to make the stats comparable to 3G warships, in direct contradiction to what the ships are seen to do in the show. While the 1st Edition got many thing wrong, one of the things they got right is the speed stats for the various ships they actually detailed from the show. Take for example the Tirolian Mothership. In 2E, it is said to have a top speed of .003 light speed. 1st Edition had the main drives capable of reaching .20 light speed, with the auxiliary engines topping out at Mach 5. The 1st Edition is a lot closer to the show, which established that the Motherships ran out of power for their fold drives roughly 100 light years away from Earth. Which meant it would take roughly 20 years for the ships to arrive on Earth, which is shown in the show. The Zentraedi ships in the show also have significant speeds, which are better represented in the 1st Edition versus in 2nd Edition.

This Edition of the game would have been better served using the stats from the 1st Edition, and the actual show, rather than try to make it compatible with Phase World. If they really wanted to make the two settings compatible, they should have put together conversions of Phase World to Robotech, rather than the other way around.

[Alrik Vas]

Top end speed doesn't necessarily mean maneuverability, though.

[Seto Kaiba]

because their speed write ups are using the same system as robotech fighters. and robotech fighters are way more agile than the ships. ergo, the phase world ships will be more maneuverable than the robotech warships, because phase world ships manuever more like robotech fighters.

All that's written up are speeds, though, so that doesn't follow because speed doesn't equal maneuverability.

While the 1st Edition got many thing wrong, one of the things they got right is the speed stats for the various ships they actually detailed from the show. [...]

This Edition of the game would have been better served using the stats from the 1st Edition, and the actual show, rather than try to make it compatible with Phase World. If they really wanted to make the two settings compatible, they should have put together conversions of Phase World to Robotech, rather than the other way around.

Actually, the reverse is demonstrably true... 2nd Edition more accurately represents the performance of the ships in terms of their sublight speed than 1st Edition does. You just have to look at the one trip for which there are explicitly established official dates of start and end for a sublight trip of significant distance: the SDF-1's trip back to Earth.

If you assume that Earth and Pluto were at their mean distance from Earth other at the start of the Macross's flight back to Earth, it means they lie approximately 6.09 billion kilometers from each other.

As the OSM has it, the Macross arrived at Pluto's orbit by fold jump on 7 February 2009, set out for Earth a week or so later, and did not reach it until the second or third week in November that same year. Rough order estimate, that's about 270 days of travel, from end to end, not counting the couple days lost dallying in Saturn's ring system and on Mars. So let's call it 265 days of flight from the start to the finish. That means they would have a top cruising speed of 266km/s or slightly faster. 300km/s is 0.001c (0.1% speed of light).

HOWEVER... this trip took much longer in Robotech. They left at the same time, but they didn't get back to Earth until March according to the Robotech timeline. If we assume they got back on March 1st (a charitable assumption), that'll add 110 days onto the trip time, if we assume the same 5 days of lost time for the Saturn and Mars skirmishes. So now they're covering those 6.09 billion kilometers in 375 days, for a cruising speed of 188km/s. If we round to the nearest 100km/s, that gives us 200km/s, which is 0.000688c (0.0688% speed of light).

The stats, as written, are EXCEEDINGLY generous even in 2nd Edition, giving the SDF-1 an 833km/s maximum interplanetary speed... and for Robotech, the SDF-1/Zor's battlefortress is supposed to be one of the BEST ships in the setting.

There's not really a need, in either setting, to have a ship with a sublight speed that's a significant fraction of the speed of light... as the only reason you'd make a sublight trip planet-to-planet is if something had gone HORRIBLY WRONG with your fold drive (of your early ships just plain didn't have 'em).

Top end speed doesn't necessarily mean maneuverability, though.

Very true.

Maximum instantaneous acceleration CAN be roughly equivalent to maneuverability in some circumstances, but that's not given in Palladium's stats.

[devillin]

(looking through the books again, the ship's top speeds are substantially less that my memory indicated, but they are still substantial and best measured relative to the speed of light)

remember that in space movement is based on inertia. with no air there is no drag so that once moving, stuff stays moving. much more important is how fast they can reach a given speed, how long it takes. that is, the acceleration.

the ships can reach up to a certain % of the speed of light (give or take), but it takes them time to reach that. much like how you measure car speeds in terms of "zero to 60 in X seconds" as a way to show how rapidly something gets up to speed, these ships acceleration is a key factor. it's not like they just suddenly go from relative stop to one third light in an instant.

What you are thinking about are the 1st Edition stats for Robotech vessels. The average ship Earth/Zentraedi had a top speed of .16 light speed on their sublight drives, while the Master's Motherships had a top speed of .20 light speed. The show also tended to show the various ships having a very high amount of speed and manuverability, especially in scenes where the SDF-1 was shown to be dodging missiles during "Force of Arms" and closing orbital distances in minutes at most. Even Southern Cross had various cruisers and destroyers moving like fighters in the battles against the Masters. The 2nd Edition pretty much just has stats for what were considered as the Auxiliary Drives in the first edition. In current game terms, the old Main Drives were like Traction Drives from Mutants in Orbit, just with more speed, while the old Auxiliary Drives and the current "Main Drives" are basically Ion Drives.

[devillin]

As the OSM has it, the Macross arrived at Pluto's orbit by fold jump on 7 February 2009, set out for Earth a week or so later, and did not reach it until the second or third week in November that same year. Rough order estimate, that's about 270 days of travel, from end to end, not counting the couple days lost dallying in Saturn's ring system and on Mars. So let's call it 265 days of flight from the start to the finish. That means they would have a top cruising speed of 266km/s or slightly faster. 300km/s is 0.001c (0.1% speed of light).

I would like to dispute you, however, even the story about how Mars Base Sara came to be abandoned had the rescue Oberth making the trip in something like 4-5 days. Considering the distance involved (median distance of 225 million kilometers), this gives the Oberth a top speed upwards of 530 km/s. While this is still double the speed you have listed for the SDF-1, there are a lot of cues that they were either taking the long way back, or the slow way back, in the hopes of hiding/avoiding the Zentraedi.

[ShadowLogan]

The 1st Edition is a lot closer to the show, which established that the Motherships ran out of power for their fold drives roughly 100 light years away from Earth. Which meant it would take roughly 20 years for the ships to arrive on Earth, which is shown in the show.

Actually if they can only do .20c it would take them 5years to cover 1 light year. Which would be consistent with the show. I'm not sure where you get the 100ly figure from, but it isn't from the show since that establishes the Masters are only 20ly out in TMS and cover it in just over 15years.

HOWEVER... this trip took much longer in Robotech. They left at the same time, but they didn't get back to Earth until March according to the Robotech timeline. If we assume they got back on March 1st (a charitable assumption), that'll add 110 days onto the trip time, if we assume the same 5 days of lost time for the Saturn and Mars skirmishes. So now they're covering those 6.09 billion kilometers in 375 days, for a cruising speed of 188km/s. If we round to the nearest 100km/s, that gives us 200km/s, which is 0.000688c (0.0688% speed of light).

The show establishes that from Ep1-3 (which are the same day) to Ep15 (when Lisa gives their report to the UEDC) an elapsed time of 12-1/2 months has occurred. That is dialogue.

However there are several problems with using the SDF-1's trip from Pluto to Earth when we look at the details:
-"Pluto" to Saturn leg, implies a very high velocity was achieved
-Saturn to Mars leg, was the result of a detour (which means additional time is added, it should also be noted the main engines are reported out of use by the time they arrive at Mars)
-@Mars Rick asks for time off next week for Minmei's Birthday party, so it could be as much as 14 days (ex if Rick/Roy discuss it on 10/4/15 and it is an event next week it could be as late as 10/17/15 or as early as 10/11/15) not 5 days
-After leaving Mars the SDF-1 makes another detour in "Blind Game" since they are ordered to not approach Earth implying they detoured, and yet are still able to get to near Earth w/n the real time elapsed for the Folds Vermillion Flight incurred travelling to/from Dolza's base

Really the only reliable velocity figure in the animation would be the "Pluto" to Saturn leg.

This topic has come up before with regard to the SDF-1 at RT.com's Hardcore forum (I emailed myself, topic is from '05 after it peetered out). Pluto-Saturn leg is about 20AU (astronomical unit, measure of distance, 1AU = Distance from Earth to the Sun), actually it might be more and I quote myself here from that thread: "If they did cover 20AU in 2 months, then they could have been at Earth within another 2months (actually w/n that time frame they could be on the other side of Saturn's orbit). According to the timeline here, they arrived at Mars 4months after Saturn."

At 20 AU in 2 months (assuming a typical 30/31 pattern and not the 28/31 or 31/31 oddities in the year, 2months IIRC is based on dialogue) that works out to a velocity of ~568kps. If I actually did the research to get a more exact distance involved from Pluto to Saturn for 2009 (which is possible) and the dates involved the value will be more accurate obviously, but 20AU might be on the low end for distances involved here reviewing the topic thread. For whatever reason the SDF-1 decided to go with a more leisurely velocity after Saturn. It should also be noted that the SDF-1 would have to slow down to enter orbit around Saturn, so it might have achieved an even higher velocity.

[Seto Kaiba]

The show also tended to show the various ships having a very high amount of speed and manuverability, especially in scenes where the SDF-1 was shown to be dodging missiles during "Force of Arms" and closing orbital distances in minutes at most.

Actually, there are very few ships in Robotech that display enough agility to dodge incoming like that fire... the SDF-1 Macross (only really seen in Ep27), and the ARMD-class space carrier (only really seen in Ep1). Even the ARMD come close to what the Macross was doing dodging those anti-ship missiles. That kind of extreme agility is pretty much the exclusive hallmark of Macross-type variable warships in Macross.

Most of the ships, like the Zentradi's, are relatively ponderous and are usually depicted as sticking to straight-line formation flight... though Macross does depict the Zentradi ships as being able to turn 180 degrees in just two or three seconds (at a stop).

Even Southern Cross had various cruisers and destroyers moving like fighters in the battles against the Masters. The 2nd Edition pretty much just has stats for what were considered as the Auxiliary Drives in the first edition. In current game terms, the old Main Drives were like Traction Drives from Mutants in Orbit, just with more speed, while the old Auxiliary Drives and the current "Main Drives" are basically Ion Drives.

The ships in Southern Cross don't display the kind of agility you claim in the animation. Like the Zentradi ships in the original Macross, they're almost invariably depicted in straight-line (or at best, gently curving) flight paths. The only time they make any real deviations from that are when they're fatally damaged, start listing, and fall out of formation before blowing up. They do make one or two relatively quick course corrections in the series (mostly in "Hunter-Killer" and "Bio-psychers") but those are very minor adjustments of maybe 10-15 degrees from their previous straight-line course to a new one.

Speed-wise, the Tristar-class's stats in RT2E are actually where almost all the ships in the Robotech RPG should be based on canon... about 200km/s top speed.

Low ebb for maneuverability was MOSPEADA, where the ships literally just fly in straight lines and then explode when they're hit.

(The depictions of these ships as being fairly cumbersome and devoted primarily to straight-line courses because it's very cheap and easy to draw, and in many cases you can draw the ship ONCE and put the static ship image on a moving backdrop or move the static ship image across and equally static backdrop.)

[Seto Kaiba]

I would like to dispute you, however, even the story about how Mars Base Sara came to be abandoned had the rescue Oberth making the trip in something like 4-5 days.

You quoted my section on the Macross version, but there was no "rescue Oberth in that... the trip the Mars Return Fleet made when they evacuated Salla Base took a month (August to September 2005), which gives a mean velocity of 21km/s.

I don't believe the Robotech Mars Base One minicomic specifies where the rescue ship is coming from or when it actually left, so that can't be taken as reliable.

The show establishes that from Ep1-3 (which are the same day) to Ep15 (when Lisa gives their report to the UEDC) an elapsed time of 12-1/2 months has occurred. That is dialogue.

I'm going by the official timeline, which is pretty much the exact same interval... February ~7 to a nonspecific point in March of the following year. I'd used March 1 as a way of maxing the Robotech speed.

-"Pluto" to Saturn leg, implies a very high velocity was achieved

Using the approximate distance between the two, that'll only get you back up to Macross levels of ~300km/s peak velocity... which is still WAY, WAY under what even RT2E says for ship speeds.

This just isn't a setting where relativistic velocity sublight engines are necessary... unlike, say, Star Trek.

[ShadowLogan]

Using the approximate distance between the two, that'll only get you back up to Macross levels of ~300km/s peak velocity... which is still WAY, WAY under what even RT2E says for ship speeds.

No it won't.
Saturn's average distance from the sun is 1,423,600,000km, Pluto's is 5,909,600,000km, using the difference between the two. At 2 month trip time (from dialogue) that works out to an average velocity of 851kps, even if I push it to 3months (91-92days) we are still talking an average of 560-570kps.

To get the SDF-1 down to 300kps requires 5months (of 31days each) for that leg of the journey.

[Seto Kaiba]

No it won't.

You're moving the goalposts in an attempt to justify your conclusion... specifically, by adding a billion kilometers or more to your distance.

Also, you're assuming that high velocity is sustainable.

[ShadowLogan]

No it won't.

You're moving the goalposts in an attempt to justify your conclusion... specifically, by adding a billion kilometers or more to your distance.

Also, you're assuming that high velocity is sustainable.

On May 1, 2009 (earliest date for Saturn per the RT.com timeline) Pluto as viewed from Saturn is ~5.2billion km apart (using JPL's Solar System simulator: http://space.jpl.nasa.gov/). That distance is a bit less than what it was on March 1, 2009, but rounded is still ~5.2billion km (again using the JPL simulator). Incidentally the Earth-Pluto distance on March 1, 2009 would be ~4.8billion km.

And no I am not moving the goalpost. I said 20AU in 2months yields 500+ kps average velocity. So using the average distances from the Sun for the respective planets, to determine the average average distance apart as you suggested, yielded an 800kps figure which means 20AU was too low as I mentioned (it's actually much too low) as I did not do the research to get a more exact figure.

The only reason my figures are getting bigger is because I am getting more precise with the distance figures involved as I did not look up the actual numbers involved. Distances to Pluto and Saturn are in the billions of kilometers. 20 AU is approx 3billion km. So yes I am adding billions of kilometers to the initial figure, but those billions also allow us to be more precise.

What we are computing here is also the average velocity involved for the distance in question since the SDF-1 would have to reduce speed/velocity to go into orbit around Saturn. Because they went into orbit at Saturn we know they had to have achieved a higher velocity (think about it a second, if you take a trip that requires different speeds, the average speed you derive will be lower than the highest you actually travelled at).

[Kagashi]

The show also tended to show the various ships having a very high amount of speed and manuverability, especially in scenes where the SDF-1 was shown to be dodging missiles during "Force of Arms" and closing orbital distances in minutes at most.

Actually, there are very few ships in Robotech that display enough agility to dodge incoming like that fire... the SDF-1 Macross (only really seen in Ep27), and the ARMD-class space carrier (only really seen in Ep1). Even the ARMD come close to what the Macross was doing dodging those anti-ship missiles. That kind of extreme agility is pretty much the exclusive hallmark of Macross-type variable warships in Macross.

Most of the ships, like the Zentradi's, are relatively ponderous and are usually depicted as sticking to straight-line formation flight... though Macross does depict the Zentradi ships as being able to turn 180 degrees in just two or three seconds (at a stop).

The Tokugawa Class ship in Masters is shown to dodge energy blasts as well.

Mars and Jupiter divisions ships just take kamikaze attacks like a man though.

[gaby]

I try to keep a balance between them,so wining is more on the talent and skill of my characters then Tech edge.