Robotech ships versus the Three Galaxies

[glitterboy2098]

actually the RPG write up for the Tristar has 4 banks of 10 reflex warhead LRM's, as well as 2 banks of 10 even larger reflex warhead missiles. the 2 banks of 40 SRM's are not the only missiles it has.

each of the 8 banks of missiles can volley themselves off entirely within 15 seconds, have 2-4 sets of reloads for immediate use, and a lot more in lstorage.

which means that a Tristar can volley off 240 nuclear tipped long range anti-ship missiles/torpedoes per minute, while defending itself from mecha and enemy missiles with 320 SRM's a minute.

[Lt Gargoyle]

actually the RPG write up for the Tristar has 4 banks of 10 reflex warhead LRM's, as well as 2 banks of 10 even larger reflex warhead missiles. the 2 banks of 40 SRM's are not the only missiles it has.

each of the 8 banks of missiles can volley themselves off entirely within 15 seconds, have 2-4 sets of reloads for immediate use, and a lot more in lstorage.

which means that a Tristar can volley off 240 nuclear tipped long range anti-ship missiles/torpedoes per minute, while defending itself from mecha and enemy missiles with 320 SRM's a minute.

Well hell, the UEEF should have kept them in their fleet. they might have made land fall in their invasion attempts.

[glitterboy2098]

the tristar carries a lot less mecha though, and i'd imagine that after that minute to minute and a half of fire the missiles would have to go silent to enable reloading from main storage. (which is certainly going to take longer than a minute, so firing rate outstrips the reload rate)

i suspect the UEEF was more focused on getting lots of troops and mecha to earth, and didn't expect the swarms of kamikaze invid they got.
since we have evidence from dialog that the UEEF had poor intel on the state of earth (the first responders not even knowing it was invid, lancers group going in with little idea of what to expect, scott's group going in thinking places like Point-K were still active, etc) i suspect that they were using tactics that worked against the masters and regent.

there is also the fact that we do not know how many of the Tristar and related ships the UEEF took with them. it may be that the tristar and other designs seen used by the ASC were not used by the UEEF to any extent. certainly i'd imagine the Tristar and the rest don't seem like they'd be able to do the same kinds of long-duration journey's the big UEEF ships can. more emphasis on firepower, but they don't look like they have much room for crew comforts or food/lifesupport supplies. which given that starships would be very much like submarines in that regard, crew comfort and supplies end up as big factors in how long a ship can stay deployed.

[Lt Gargoyle]

the tristar carries a lot less mecha though, and i'd imagine that after that minute to minute and a half of fire the missiles would have to go silent to enable reloading from main storage. (which is certainly going to take longer than a minute, so firing rate outstrips the reload rate)

i suspect the UEEF was more focused on getting lots of troops and mecha to earth, and didn't expect the swarms of kamikaze invid they got.
since we have evidence from dialog that the UEEF had poor intel on the state of earth (the first responders not even knowing it was invid, lancers group going in with little idea of what to expect, scott's group going in thinking places like Point-K were still active, etc) i suspect that they were using tactics that worked against the masters and regent.

there is also the fact that we do not know how many of the Tristar and related ships the UEEF took with them. it may be that the tristar and other designs seen used by the ASC were not used by the UEEF to any extent. certainly i'd imagine the Tristar and the rest don't seem like they'd be able to do the same kinds of long-duration journey's the big UEEF ships can. more emphasis on firepower, but they don't look like they have much room for crew comforts or food/lifesupport supplies. which given that starships would be very much like submarines in that regard, crew comfort and supplies end up as big factors in how long a ship can stay deployed.

my point is you take a variety of ships in a fleet to get the best results. yes you would need more then a few and mecha would be good too. but there is only gonna be so much mecha flying at you.

[Alrik Vas]

Yeah, but weren't the ASC ships low armor? And missiles are pretty universal in Palladium as far as range and damage.

Beam weapons are what set the settings apart.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Yeah, but weren't the ASC ships low armor? And missiles are pretty universal in Palladium as far as range and damage.

Beam weapons are what set the settings apart.

Not in the Show, the ASc ships are the only ones in the show that are involved in ship to ship combat and survive.
The Oberth's in the Zentrtadi era are tissue paper, against the weaker Zentradi ships. the Tri-star and the other ASC designs stand well against the people who created and armed the Zents...
as for Palladium's missile charts... the limitations Palladium has for damage done by missiles is incompatible with Robotech, as the fighter-carried Reflex warheads can take out ships with 10's of thousands of MDC...

[glitterboy2098]

the tristar carries a lot less mecha though, and i'd imagine that after that minute to minute and a half of fire the missiles would have to go silent to enable reloading from main storage. (which is certainly going to take longer than a minute, so firing rate outstrips the reload rate)

i suspect the UEEF was more focused on getting lots of troops and mecha to earth, and didn't expect the swarms of kamikaze invid they got.
since we have evidence from dialog that the UEEF had poor intel on the state of earth (the first responders not even knowing it was invid, lancers group going in with little idea of what to expect, scott's group going in thinking places like Point-K were still active, etc) i suspect that they were using tactics that worked against the masters and regent.

there is also the fact that we do not know how many of the Tristar and related ships the UEEF took with them. it may be that the tristar and other designs seen used by the ASC were not used by the UEEF to any extent. certainly i'd imagine the Tristar and the rest don't seem like they'd be able to do the same kinds of long-duration journey's the big UEEF ships can. more emphasis on firepower, but they don't look like they have much room for crew comforts or food/lifesupport supplies. which given that starships would be very much like submarines in that regard, crew comfort and supplies end up as big factors in how long a ship can stay deployed.

my point is you take a variety of ships in a fleet to get the best results. yes you would need more then a few and mecha would be good too. but there is only gonna be so much mecha flying at you.

a side effect of splicing together unrelated series's is that you end up with some odd absences. the best we can do is attempt to find a reasonable justification for why we see ships in one series, but not in the other where their abilities might be of use.

of course in the RPG we can fudge things a bit and claim that such ships did see action. you just have to keep them rare enough that their lack of on screen appearance seems believable.

[Lt Gargoyle]

the tristar carries a lot less mecha though, and i'd imagine that after that minute to minute and a half of fire the missiles would have to go silent to enable reloading from main storage. (which is certainly going to take longer than a minute, so firing rate outstrips the reload rate)

i suspect the UEEF was more focused on getting lots of troops and mecha to earth, and didn't expect the swarms of kamikaze invid they got.
since we have evidence from dialog that the UEEF had poor intel on the state of earth (the first responders not even knowing it was invid, lancers group going in with little idea of what to expect, scott's group going in thinking places like Point-K were still active, etc) i suspect that they were using tactics that worked against the masters and regent.

there is also the fact that we do not know how many of the Tristar and related ships the UEEF took with them. it may be that the tristar and other designs seen used by the ASC were not used by the UEEF to any extent. certainly i'd imagine the Tristar and the rest don't seem like they'd be able to do the same kinds of long-duration journey's the big UEEF ships can. more emphasis on firepower, but they don't look like they have much room for crew comforts or food/lifesupport supplies. which given that starships would be very much like submarines in that regard, crew comfort and supplies end up as big factors in how long a ship can stay deployed.

my point is you take a variety of ships in a fleet to get the best results. yes you would need more then a few and mecha would be good too. but there is only gonna be so much mecha flying at you.

a side effect of splicing together unrelated series's is that you end up with some odd absences. the best we can do is attempt to find a reasonable justification for why we see ships in one series, but not in the other where their abilities might be of use.

of course in the RPG we can fudge things a bit and claim that such ships did see action. you just have to keep them rare enough that their lack of on screen appearance seems believable.

I fully agree. it just doesnt work in my head. It just seems like the UEEF by the time the last Invasion force would have used their brains and put some missile boats into the fleet. Heck it should have been a given before the final battle over reflex point.

[glitterboy2098]

that's why i speculated about endurance. we know it took almost 3 years to reach the master's empire since the SDF-3 and the UEEF left in 2022, and were engaged with the invid in 2025*

since the trip across the galaxy requires a large number of fold jumps** you'd want ships that can make long trips without having to resupply as often, and which allow the crew a degree of comfort (so they remain functional over the long trip.) it may be that the ASC ships just can't do such trips without either being reduced to skeleton crews or using a great many more logistics resupply points.

but i agree it is a little odd that the UEEF didn't invest in more point defense missiles on their ships.

my personal justification is that since UEEF ships we have stats for carry a fairly large number of non-veritech mecha (like Condors and bioroid interceptors), they expected to deploy Mecha onto the hull to augment the defenses, in a similar fashion to how the SDF-1 used it's destroids on the trip back to earth.

the ASC doesn't really have non-veritech mecha designed for space operation (just the Manticore PA, which lacks missiles and is more of a boarding/counter boarding unit), so they optimized to carry space fighters and veritechs in their hangers ,and installed extra point defense to try and make up the difference.
two different design strategies.


* as per the fluff for the Condor, which has the first Condors deployed against invid in that year.
** as per the fluff for every single fold drives in the RPG ever. (we pretty much have to ignore UEEF marine's "single jump to tyrol" due to the overwhelming evidence from the RPG entries and HG's current canon)

[Seto Kaiba]

actually the RPG write up for the Tristar has 4 banks of 10 reflex warhead LRM's, as well as 2 banks of 10 even larger reflex warhead missiles. the 2 banks of 40 SRM's are not the only missiles it has.

each of the 8 banks of missiles can volley themselves off entirely within 15 seconds, have 2-4 sets of reloads for immediate use, and a lot more in lstorage.

which means that a Tristar can volley off 240 nuclear tipped long range anti-ship missiles/torpedoes per minute, while defending itself from mecha and enemy missiles with 320 SRM's a minute.

Yes, that's true... but it doesn't disprove the earlier statements WRT the RPG massively, MASSIVELY NERF-ing the human ships in the Macross II and Robotech settings. The Tristar-class is a perfect example of where the crunch doesn't meet the fluff halfway... or at all, really.

The 2nd Edition Robotech RPG's Tristar-class is allegedly built around Zentradi tech salvage, but its weapons are frankly embarrassing even without that claim. Its longest-ranged gun turret has an effective range in space of less than 100km, with most effective to less than 70km. Compare that to the warships of the Zentradi or Robotech Masters, where the average gun turret isn't just about 50% more powerful, they're a lot more numerous AND have an average of 183 times the range (17,600km). The missile weapons don't really make up the difference, since their capacity is aggressively limited (80 missiles total per ship), their range is only about 1,600km, and they hit less powerfully than a standard enemy beam turret... which has unlimited ammo.

The story is the same for almost every ship... the ARMD-class space carriers that, in their native series, were disabling and/or destroying Zentradi warships many times their size with near-misses or hits from just one or two anti-ship missiles couldn't scratch the paint on a Zentradi ship in the RPG even if they fired everything they had. 6D8x10 doesn't go very far when the enemy's got a hull MDC of 65,000 or better...

[Alrik Vas]

Yeah, but weren't the ASC ships low armor? And missiles are pretty universal in Palladium as far as range and damage.

Beam weapons are what set the settings apart.

Not in the Show, the ASc ships are the only ones in the show that are involved in ship to ship combat and survive.
The Oberth's in the Zentrtadi era are tissue paper, against the weaker Zentradi ships. the Tri-star and the other ASC designs stand well against the people who created and armed the Zents...
as for Palladium's missile charts... the limitations Palladium has for damage done by missiles is incompatible with Robotech, as the fighter-carried Reflex warheads can take out ships with 10's of thousands of MDC...

I believe Breetai says, "Full barrage, all cannons." This is followed by seeing his 3 mile long flag ship opening up with the business, which destroys several earth defender ships, yeah. Considering the pain zentradi craft can put out in their stats, I'm pretty sure everything is tissue paper against that.

[Kagashi]

the tristar carries a lot less mecha though, and i'd imagine that after that minute to minute and a half of fire the missiles would have to go silent to enable reloading from main storage. (which is certainly going to take longer than a minute, so firing rate outstrips the reload rate)

i suspect the UEEF was more focused on getting lots of troops and mecha to earth, and didn't expect the swarms of kamikaze invid they got.
since we have evidence from dialog that the UEEF had poor intel on the state of earth (the first responders not even knowing it was invid, lancers group going in with little idea of what to expect, scott's group going in thinking places like Point-K were still active, etc) i suspect that they were using tactics that worked against the masters and regent.

there is also the fact that we do not know how many of the Tristar and related ships the UEEF took with them. it may be that the tristar and other designs seen used by the ASC were not used by the UEEF to any extent. certainly i'd imagine the Tristar and the rest don't seem like they'd be able to do the same kinds of long-duration journey's the big UEEF ships can. more emphasis on firepower, but they don't look like they have much room for crew comforts or food/lifesupport supplies. which given that starships would be very much like submarines in that regard, crew comfort and supplies end up as big factors in how long a ship can stay deployed.

my point is you take a variety of ships in a fleet to get the best results. yes you would need more then a few and mecha would be good too. but there is only gonna be so much mecha flying at you.

True, the Tokugawa class was the troop/ship carrier of the era. Unfortunately we do not have RPG stats, but based on the write up from the old website and info from the Prelude comics and Art of the Shadow Chronicles, the Tokugawa had about 1000 fighters and/or mecha (like the also RPG excluded Vulture fighter). It was also designed to take 150k additional non crew members (according to RT.com) to act as a colony ship, so in times of war, this space could be dedicated for additional mecha, weapons, troops, etc...

Where as the Tristars appeared to be the gun ships of the fleet of the era, the Tokugawas were to act as the troop carrier, providing that synergy Gargoyle is describing. Unfortunately, Palladium only statted out half of the equation for us, even though they mention the Tokugawas in flavor text.

[Colonel Wolfe]

I believe Breetai says, "Full barrage, all cannons." This is followed by seeing his 3 mile long flag ship opening up with the business, which destroys several earth defender ships, yeah. Considering the pain zentradi craft can put out in their stats, I'm pretty sure everything is tissue paper against that.

but common sense would dictate the Masters who build and equip the Zents wouldn't give them tech and firepower that would rival their own. If the Zents can tear through the Obert like wet Kleenex, then the Master's ships are even worse... yet the Tri-star and ships from that era go toe to toe with the masters and manage to give a little resistance. The Humans Ships form the 1st era don't even offer token resistance. even the Master's smallest Troop transports are able to vaporize cities...

[Alrik Vas]

The picket ships don't shred the oberths and ARMD's. The flagship does. The scouts are heavily damaged by the ARMD missiles as well.

And how long do the ASC ships go toe to toe? The masters were severely under gunned in comparison to their top output, remember.

[Seto Kaiba]

The picket ships don't shred the oberths and ARMD's. The flagship does. The scouts are heavily damaged by the ARMD missiles as well.

Actually, the picket ships are destroyed by the Macross's main gun firing... the ships that are destroyed and disabled by the missiles from ARMD-01 and ARMD-02 are the much larger Thuverl Salan-class line battleships. That means that, in the context of the RPG, each of those missiles has to be dealing at least 25,000 mega-damage.

As far as "shredding" Oberth-class and ARMD-class ships, the animation depicts ARMD-01 surviving the barrage from the fleet flagship, and only being lost along with two destroyers after coming under fire from a dozen or more Zentradi ships.

And how long do the ASC ships go toe to toe? The masters were severely under gunned in comparison to their top output, remember.

The RPG definitely short-sells them too... OSM-ly speaking the engagement ranges in the RPG are quite generous for most of the battles shown (the fight in "Hunter Killer", AKA "The Hunters" takes place at a range of only a few kilometers), and laser turrets seem to be pretty much useless against the Zor ships, but the missiles the human ships fire rip huge holes in the outer hull of the Zor ships and Glorie ships (RT: Tristar-class) are shown to be able to stand up to sustained fire from Zor ships.

General Emerson's personal ship is subjected to five or six mass barrages in the space of just two episodes, AND rams a Zor Lords mothership, and is still undamaged enough to continue fighting afterward.

They stand up in sustained engagements on several occasions throughout the series... the only ships for which the RPG's NERFing of human ships makes sense is the ones from MOSPEADA, where a collision with one little Inbit was enough to turn a 300m long assault carrier into a cloud of shrapnel.

[Alrik Vas]

Ok, but how does the OSM stack up against the dramatics? From what I've heard, SD Cav SC didn't have quite as much detail put into it as Macross. So I'm asking if the designer notes/designs mean anything there, or if the writes just said, "well, its Emerson's ship, so of course it will survive until we don't need it."

[Seto Kaiba]

Ok, but how does the OSM stack up against the dramatics? [...] So I'm asking if the designer notes/designs mean anything there, or if the writes just said, "well, its Emerson's ship, so of course it will survive until we don't need it."

Well, the fun bit is that Emerson's ship doesn't actually do much (if any) shooting when it appears... so almost all of those scenes in which the Southern Cross Army's space fleet is demonstrating its firepower by blasting holes in the Zor Lords' ships with the missile weapons they carry are nameless background mooks. They don't seem as durable as Emerson's personal battleship, but most seem to be tough enough to take a couple direct hits from Zor gun batteries without being destroyed. They don't start blowing up left and right unless they're mobbed by biovers and go up "death of a thousand cuts" style or are caught in the crossfire between 2 or 3 Zor motherships.

The same can be said for the Macross Saga ships, which stand up pretty well until they're taking simultaneous fire from a dozen or more enemy ships, and the Palladium missile table doesn't really cover the level of firepower the thermonuclear reaction warheads they're carrying. (They're city-destroying weapons, in general.)

The production material doesn't actual say anything about the average durability, but you could make a convincing argument based upon the animation that the RPG does the human ships a disservice. The extent to which they're NERFing them varies saga to saga thanks to differences in source material, but the human ships of the Macross and Masters Sagas are definitely not anything like the biscuit rafts the stats present.

From what I've heard, SD Cav SC didn't have quite as much detail put into it as Macross.

Sad but true, the amount of information that can be gleaned from the published production material is near zero... many mecha got nothing more than a name, and many more didn't even get that much.

[ShadowLogan]

The production material doesn't actual say anything about the average durability, but you could make a convincing argument based upon the animation that the RPG does the human ships a disservice. The extent to which they're NERFing them varies saga to saga thanks to differences in source material, but the human ships of the Macross and Masters Sagas are definitely not anything like the biscuit rafts the stats present.

The sad thing is based on the animation the RPG sells a lot of things short and/or inflating other things, and it isn't just the ships. For example you can add to the list based on the animation:
-The Logan's weapon systems are both shown to be capable of destroying Bioroids with one hit consistently (no different than the VF-1's GU-11). The burst from the nose gun listed is pretty stingy compared to the bursts shown in the animation. Then there is the possibility the wings can be used as shields like the VHT-1 has. It's missing VTOL capability (here the ball is more on HG for missing this bit in the official specs, but can be seen in the animation).
-The VHT-1's BFG's ROF, it's gunpod is also capable of disabling Bioroid just as quickly
-Alpha's gunpod is sold short (IIRC it can be just as effective at one bursting as the VHT, Logan, and VF-1 with their gunpods), not to mention the synchronizing of the MM-60 system between 2 Alphas to go all "Death Blossom" on mass formations of Invid (and not talking about a tight grouping here that can be covered by including them in the blast radius by the rules)
-"Pupil Pistol" is totally screwed up (by Louie's description of its operation it should fire additional shots as a "do over" though the ammunition is spent either way and not a simple Aimed Shot bonus IIRC NG SB's has the system doing)
-AGAC is only shown with 2 hardpoints in the animation, and those feature "pods" with what the Infopedia called "cluster missiles", not the x4 highly configurable points the 2E RPG gives
-The Beta's bomb bay can apparently be used to "bomb" targets in mid-air/flight (something not considered by the RPG IIRC)

This is avoiding the controversial stuff to (ex. Sylphid).

[Alrik Vas]

Well, then talk about the apparent damage of the regult 1-shotting VF-1's with it's particle beams. A regult being completely destroyed from an 80ft landing impact after having it's foot destroyed by a Destroid punch. Or the GU-11 taking out a quadrano with a single burst (Fokker does this in Bye Bye Big Brother). Or we could go with zentradi power armor side kick 1 shotting a destroid when khyron takes back the resizing chamber.

The drama in a show can't be considered an accurate depiction of capability in the RPG.

[Seto Kaiba]

The sad thing is based on the animation the RPG sells a lot of things short and/or inflating other things, and it isn't just the ships. For example you can add to the list based on the animation:

Eh... a LOT of what you listed can be attributed to sacrifices made in the name of game balance and/or hero drama in the show itself.

Where the issue with the human ships being NERF'd differs is that, even without the substantial body of evidence from the shows, it makes no sense at all in the context of the game. Why bother having ship-to-ship combat rules or statting the ships out when your stats for the ships are so unbalanced that one side is virtually guaranteed to lose without even being able to return fire? That's not really what you'd call sound game design.

Well, then talk about the apparent damage of the regult 1-shotting VF-1's with it's particle beams. A regult being completely destroyed from an 80ft landing impact after having it's foot destroyed by a Destroid punch. Or the GU-11 taking out a quadrano with a single burst (Fokker does this in Bye Bye Big Brother). Or we could go with zentradi power armor side kick 1 shotting a destroid when khyron takes back the resizing chamber.

A fair amount of this can actually be explained via official spec and other relevant information... and it's always helpful to remember there's a difference between "disabled" and "destroyed" in the shows that is not necessarily represented in the RPG.

Palladium's system and its emphasis of tanking hits against armor is really not a good match to the animation. If you wanted to do something more OSM-accurate, the game would have to have a much greater emphasis on evasion. I can't speak to the strength of weapons in Southern Cross due to the lack of data, but MOSPEADA's Legioss and TLEAD's guns are on the same level for firepower as the GAU-8/A 30mm rotary cannon of the A-10 Thunderbolt II. The TLEAD literally has three 30mm vulcan cannons for fixed-forward armament. That's high-end real world firepower, and Macross is, bare minimum, an order of magnitude above that based on its official spec. I won't get into the specifics here, but a fair number of your examples are readily attributable to the sheer power of the weaponry available (and the tactical ethos of the forces using it).

The drama in a show can't be considered an accurate depiction of capability in the RPG.

Unless, of course, it's backed up by data.

[Alrik Vas]

That's all well and good, but my point is much more your reply to shadowlogan than it is the points you made back to me.

I agree with what you say, honestly. And I prefer games balanced on evasion and positioning rather than toughness myself.

[ShadowLogan]

h... a LOT of what you listed can be attributed to sacrifices made in the name of game balance and/or hero drama in the show itself.

I could buy that line of thinking if the TMS saga didn't get such a free pass with it from the VF-1 gunpod. It actually comes across more as bias than balance compared to the animation when you compare relative values in game terms (not how much MD/MDC is actually involved but the number of actions to achieve the same effect in the animation) even after allowing for things like critical hits or "close enough" to give it a pass..

Where the issue with the human ships being NERF'd differs is that, even without the substantial body of evidence from the shows, it makes no sense at all in the context of the game.

I agree here, but the context of the game shouldn't see the NERF'ing of the mecha either to favor a given generation over another in relative terms based on the animation.

Palladium's system and its emphasis of tanking hits against armor is really not a good match to the animation. If you wanted to do something more OSM-accurate, the game would have to have a much greater emphasis on evasion

Palladium attempts to do both actually given its active combat approach. It might be more evident if it was like Fuzion/Interlock system as opposed to D20/AD&Dl.

The drama in a show can't be considered an accurate depiction of capability in the RPG.

The more often it happens though the less likely we can put it down to "dramatic license" for the RPG to ignore though.

[Alrik Vas]

Regardless, the RPG did things the way they did. Some disagrees with the source material, some goes with it. That's Robotech. Cheery picking the bits that work for the story and tossing the rest.

Really, in my opinion, I saw fewer issues before they followed the OSM more closely, because then it was just them making it up. That's kind of what the RPG continues to do, anyway.

[Seto Kaiba]

I agree here, but the context of the game shouldn't see the NERF'ing of the mecha either to favor a given generation over another in relative terms based on the animation.

Unless it's in the name of canon compliance...

Regardless, the RPG did things the way they did. Some disagrees with the source material, some goes with it. That's Robotech. Cheery picking the bits that work for the story and tossing the rest.

That's just the general approach of a licensed RPG... create your own stories in an approximation of the official setting, which may contain material that isn't accurate or canon. That's why, as a rule, licensed RPGs generally aren't considered canon by the series that spawned them.

On some levels, the NERFing of certain performance aspects from the original shows makes sense to enforce a uniform setting... especially since the "Macross Saga" material would have been rather overpowered if it had been brought across accurately, even compared to 3G/Rifts standards. It enforces a little uniformity across the Robotech setting by knocking the Zentradi down to about the same level as the Masters, though it also hurts the ship rules in general by NERFing the human ships unnecessarily for no clear reason.

Had Palladium accurately represented the setting and tech level of the Macross II OVA in the RPG, that would probably be the most overpowered setting in the Megaverse system... where ships that massively outgun the Death Star are built by the thousands and ships can fire on each other while several AU apart.

Really, in my opinion, I saw fewer issues before they followed the OSM more closely, because then it was just them making it up. That's kind of what the RPG continues to do, anyway.

There were less serious internal conflicts in what Palladium was writing... but it was Robotech in name only.

[Alrik Vas]

Had Palladium accurately represented the setting and tech level of the Macross II OVA in the RPG, that would probably be the most overpowered setting in the Megaverse system... where ships that massively outgun the Death Star are built by the thousands and ships can fire on each other while several AU apart.

I thought that was just the Marduk mothership with the several million mile range, and with av specific weapon. I wasn't aware it could 1shot a planet, either.

[Jefffar]

An important thing to remember is that we are discussing a game based on a cartoon.

So we are taking a fictional construct and making a further fictional construct around it to make it accessible and fun for interactive play.

As a result, there will need to be changes based on making the game fun and playable.

If you recall, the first edition RPG was the initial introduction of MDC, in order to make things like Giant Mecha work in what had been, up until that time, a very personal scaled RPG format.

Palladium has always emphasized PC survivability in their games, the reason being it takes a while to create a PC, players often get emotionally attached to their PCs and wiping out a party with a few lucky rolls is generally a dissatisfying way to end a campaign.

These two decisions (MDC and PC survivability) did a lot to shape both editions of the game. They have also had a side effect of skewing combat above mecha scale actions severely. In my games, the big ships are more setting elements than anything, and if they get engaged by the right weapon system, they get crippled or destroyed. PCs get to either help deliver those weapons or or tasked to intercept them.

There has been, and remains, a strong subset of players who would like a grittier, more wargame style set of rules for Robotech. I may count myself amount those. But overall, at the scale it was intended (Character level) and within the assumption that PCs should be able to live through encounters to learn from them, the system is an adequate (not exact) representation. It just runs into difficulty once you step outside of those parameters.

[Lt Gargoyle]

An important thing to remember is that we are discussing a game based on a cartoon.

So we are taking a fictional construct and making a further fictional construct around it to make it accessible and fun for interactive play.

As a result, there will need to be changes based on making the game fun and playable.

If you recall, the first edition RPG was the initial introduction of MDC, in order to make things like Giant Mecha work in what had been, up until that time, a very personal scaled RPG format.

Palladium has always emphasized PC survivability in their games, the reason being it takes a while to create a PC, players often get emotionally attached to their PCs and wiping out a party with a few lucky rolls is generally a dissatisfying way to end a campaign.

These two decisions (MDC and PC survivability) did a lot to shape both editions of the game. They have also had a side effect of skewing combat above mecha scale actions severely. In my games, the big ships are more setting elements than anything, and if they get engaged by the right weapon system, they get crippled or destroyed. PCs get to either help deliver those weapons or or tasked to intercept them.

There has been, and remains, a strong subset of players who would like a grittier, more wargame style set of rules for Robotech. I may count myself amount those. But overall, at the scale it was intended (Character level) and within the assumption that PCs should be able to live through encounters to learn from them, the system is an adequate (not exact) representation. It just runs into difficulty once you step outside of those parameters.

good point. I like to have both the PC survivability and the grittier tale.

[ShadowLogan]

Unless it's in the name of canon compliance...

Not buying it. Canon compliance would include matching the performance in the footage and dialogue.

[Seto Kaiba]

Had Palladium accurately represented the setting and tech level of the Macross II OVA in the RPG, that would probably be the most overpowered setting in the Megaverse system... where ships that massively outgun the Death Star are built by the thousands and ships can fire on each other while several AU apart.

I thought that was just the Marduk mothership with the several million mile range, and with av specific weapon. I wasn't aware it could 1shot a planet, either.

The Mardook Ingues mobile fortress is the only mobile fortress we've seen with the energy irradiation weapon that lets it strike at targets out of its line of sight... so far. As a rule, nothing associated with the ancient Protoculture in the DYRLverse is a one-off... even mobile fortresses are mass-production constructs. (Not every fleet is equipped identically... some retained more of the technology the ancient Protoculture originally equipped them with than others, so there are likely some Zentradi and/or Meltrandi mobile fortresses armed with the same weapon.)

As for one-shotting a planet... the mobile fortresses's main super dimension energy cannon is a weapon that quite dwarfs a Grand Cannon, and has a demonstrated ability to vaporize hundreds of thousands of regular warships AND a mobile fortress significantly larger than the Death Star II in one shot. When you can turn a moon the size of Enceladus into nothing heavier than a cough, you have a weapon that can probably reduce a planet to rubble fairly easily.

Palladium has always emphasized PC survivability in their games, the reason being it takes a while to create a PC, players often get emotionally attached to their PCs and wiping out a party with a few lucky rolls is generally a dissatisfying way to end a campaign.

These two decisions (MDC and PC survivability) did a lot to shape both editions of the game. They have also had a side effect of skewing combat above mecha scale actions severely. In my games, the big ships are more setting elements than anything, and if they get engaged by the right weapon system, they get crippled or destroyed. PCs get to either help deliver those weapons or or tasked to intercept them.

That's kind of exactly the problem being cited WRT the massive, unnecessary, and unsupported NERFing that was inflicted on the human ships in Robotech/Macross II... it annihilated any pretense of PC survivability for anyone aboard a human ship. Should the GM decide to actually implement the spaceship rules as written, or at all without massive house-rule modification, he doesn't even need those few rolls to be lucky ones to assure the obliteration of the party. Spaceship combat in Robotech or Macross II RAW isn't PC combat... with only one possible outcome, it's functionally identical to "Rocks fall, everyone dies".

Unless it's in the name of canon compliance...

Not buying it. Canon compliance would include matching the performance in the footage and dialogue.

Footage and dialog are not the only sources of canon.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Canon compliance would include matching the performance in the footage and dialogue.

One would think this should be self-evident. Sadly, I think too many people are willing to throw The Masters War mecha, ships etc under the proverbial bus because: "reasons". Otherwise, one might come to the conclusion that The Macross Saga was not the end all, be all of Robotech....

[Alrik Vas]

Hey, I read the RPG books a long time ago, and remembered being disappointed with the ASC ships. It's been a while since I watched Robotech as well, so I didn't recall how long the Tristar and others hung in vs the Motherships, that's all.

The VHT is one of the coolest pieces of hardware in RT, in my opinion. Yet I've always hated the Logan, thought it was a pile, better off used as a washtub for a VF-1 pilot's unmentionables. Really. Can't stand the thing.

That doesn't change how effective or ineffective it is. Just me thinking it would serve better as a paperweight.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Another point to consider is the fact that not only have the ships of The Masters War been nerfed downwards, but the REF ships of The New Generation have been artificially boosted upwards in power.

The Ikazuchi lists 8 ventral mounted tri-barreled cannons, despite the fact they are shown in neither Robotech (where large ventral thrusters are clearly seen in Symphony of Light) nor in Shadow Chronicles (which actually shows them lifting off from the surface of Mars). They also list several anti-ship missile batteries, even though not a single cell has EVER been produced showing such emplacements. There are the point-defense guns that only exist on the version seen in The Shadow Chronicles, which is clearly NOT the same vessel as seen in Robotech. And then there is the ram prow...which is hilariously ironic in that none of the Earth ships in Robotech OTHER THAN those in The Masters War (Tristar's and Tokugawa's) are shown to either have an un-shielded/non reinforced forward section capable of surviving the impact with another ship (not even the SDF-01 which has to use the pin-point barrier system to ram). Even Major Carpenter's ship apparently survives ramming, only to detonate (presumably) its reflex furnace in self-destruct much the same as Emerson's Tristar.

Then, of course, there is the Garfish with its anti-mecha weaponry that is listed as anti-ship. Yet, again, not a single cell can be shown to actually show a Garfish firing on anything BUT mecha: not the tri-barreled beam cannon nor the 6 missile tubes. And somehow we're supposed to buy that its capable of killing a Bioroid Assault Corvette with but a single tri-barreled blast, but the same Corvette can barely dent a Garfish in return? The Corvette that we SEE in its first action obliterate the much larger Battlecruiser as well as flatten a freakin CITY....and this is SUPPOSED to make sense? In what illogical, bizarro world scenario does this make sense?

It would truly be comical if it wasn't so godawfully biased....

[camk4evr]

Judging from the way they're used in the show (and the way they're designed), the Garfish and Ikazuchi are basically just transports and LSTs designed to shuttle troops and materiel to a planet and provide fire support for the invasion forces as opposed to being actual ships of the line.

[ShadowLogan]

Footage and dialog are not the only sources of canon.

If you are referring to basing things on the OSM, which as you have reported is "light on the details" for the primary saga contributing to the earlier list that means we should have to rely on the footage and dialog much more so.

One would think this should be self-evident. Sadly, I think too many people are willing to throw The Masters War mecha, ships etc under the proverbial bus because: "reasons". Otherwise, one might come to the conclusion that The Macross Saga was not the end all, be all of Robotech....

It is also supposed to the highest order of canon according to HG. Macross Saga is not the only part to RT, but it is the largest (42%) chunk from the animation.

The Ikazuchi lists 8 ventral mounted tri-barreled cannons

Where? AotSC and RT.com Infopedia do list 8, but they are said to be on the top deck. Which is supported by the animation in how they identify the structures. Could it be a typo and they meant to say "dorsal"?

Yet I've always hated the Logan, thought it was a pile, better off used as a washtub for a VF-1 pilot's unmentionables. Really. Can't stand the thing.

That is a very common viewpoint I've encountered, one that I think comes down more to aesthetics than actual basis in performance on screen. I do have to ask why though?

[Seto Kaiba]

Judging from the way they're used in the show (and the way they're designed), the Garfish and Ikazuchi are basically just transports and LSTs designed to shuttle troops and materiel to a planet and provide fire support for the invasion forces as opposed to being actual ships of the line.

You hit the nail on the head... that is EXACTLY what those ships are in the original Genesis Climber MOSPEADA.

One of the problems with adapting unrelated shows together the way Robotech's editors did was that the individual authors of those original works inevitably had completely different ideas about how spacecraft would be used in the settings they created. It's less of a problem for the RPG, which can simply ignore the logistical problems this causes if it's inconvenient to the story that a GM wants to explore, but for the animated continuity it results in a lot of raised eyebrows.

The Mars Base/Colony ships from MOSPEADA were not deep space-worthy craft or even intended to operate in space for long periods of time. With the sole exception of the 3rd Recapture Mission flagship Izumo, they were little more than boxes given engines and used to ship troops and material from the outer solar system colonies to the staging areas on Luna, and then (after an assault was organized and the ships resupplied) to ferry those troops and armored fighting vehicles from the staging areas to their assault targets on Earth. They were quick and dirty background designs that, like the fighters, were not originally meant to be the focus of attention for any length of time... and as such, they have a LOT of design problems. They have no anti-aircraft defenses, their ship-to-ship weapons are pretty much entirely for show and are plagued by massive blind spots, and none of the ships which carry fighters have any actual means to recover those fighters.

Like virtually every mechanical design in the finished Southern Cross series except the body armor, the ships of the Southern Cross Army's transport corps are an "11th Hour" addition to the show and consequentially there's virtually no information about the ships from Glorie and Liberte... but both designs there are battleships, and the fighters they carry are an afterthought at best. The designs benefit from the fact that they're out-of-focus in Southern Cross and in Robotech, so any logistical flaws they've got have never had the opportunity to rear their heads in any significant way. (Except, of course, that the warp drive takes half an hour to warm up and any matter within ~2km of a ship that's making or exiting a warp jump is torn apart on the atomic level.)

Like almost everything in their series, Macross's creators lavished an obsessive amount of detail on the design and operation that would be expected of the spacecraft they designed for the show... much of which went completely to waste until years or even decades later, when the human ships finally got more screen time than it takes to boil an egg.

If you are referring to basing things on the OSM, which as you have reported is "light on the details" for the primary saga contributing to the earlier list that means we should have to rely on the footage and dialog much more so.

Actually, I'm referring to Harmony Gold's official positions on the ships, mecha, personnel, etc....

"Light on the details" is putting it mildly when it comes to the profound absence of detail in Southern Cross's OSM.

It is also supposed to the highest order of canon according to HG. Macross Saga is not the only part to RT, but it is the largest (42%) chunk from the animation.

Supposed to be... but Harmony Gold doesn't always treat it as such.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Where? AotSC and RT.com Infopedia do list 8, but they are said to be on the top deck. Which is supported by the animation in how they identify the structures. Could it be a typo and they meant to say "dorsal"?

Its in the Robotech: The Shadow Chronicles Deluxe RPG. The total is 16 cannons, of which 8 are mounted on the ventral hull. Apparently, it was partly copy/pasted from the 1st Edition Sentinels RPG....

[Alrik Vas]

About the Logan:
Isn't a multi-role superiority fighter, nor could it be.
Terrible aerodynamics
Reliance on low output weapons
Only 2 modes, and it's small. Designed for war in an army lead by a guy who hates zentradi and it can't even body slam them. Tsk tsk
It's quick, but it's a sparrow, not an eagle.
One character shows it can hang with bioroids, and even she loses often enough. Maybe if she had a better machine...
Low armor, low (or non-existent) ordinance.

The only thing to like about it is that it's likely cheap to produce and it's pretty fast. Though high altitude speed isn't important for it's infantry support role, and without serious punch, it can't even do that well.

This is all my perception and opinion, of course.

[camk4evr]

Judging from the way they're used in the show (and the way they're designed), the Garfish and Ikazuchi are basically just transports and LSTs designed to shuttle troops and materiel to a planet and provide fire support for the invasion forces as opposed to being actual ships of the line.

You hit the nail on the head... that is EXACTLY what those ships are in the original Genesis Climber MOSPEADA.

It wasn't, exactly, a hard conclusion to reach (esp. since in a previous topic you mention that MOSPEADA is supposed to be a SC-FI Normandy Invasion and, lets face it, if you're going to be invading planets you're going to need LSTs and troop transports. To be honest I think it would have been better if HG and the RPG left them as such instead of deciding they were warships.

For that matter, it would have been better if they had left the setting of Southern Cross as a colony world (like the original show) instead of having it happen on Earth. Especially as it could also be used to explain any supposed/perceived deficiencies in the mecha (ie they are small for easier transport and are designed primarily to protect against raiders, police the colony, and, if necessary, hold or slow and invasion long enough for the fleet to arrive). Probably not well mind you.

[Lt Gargoyle]

It wasn't, exactly, a hard conclusion to reach (esp. since in a previous topic you mention that MOSPEADA is supposed to be a SC-FI Normandy Invasion and, lets face it, if you're going to be invading planets you're going to need LSTs and troop transports. To be honest I think it would have been better if HG and the RPG left them as such instead of deciding they were warships.

For that matter, it would have been better if they had left the setting of Southern Cross as a colony world (like the original show) instead of having it happen on Earth. Especially as it could also be used to explain any supposed/perceived deficiencies in the mecha (ie they are small for easier transport and are designed primarily to protect against raiders, police the colony, and, if necessary, hold or slow and invasion long enough for the fleet to arrive). Probably not well mind you.[/quote]


They could have even used the Southern as the Gloval colony initiative in the story line. And advanced it a couple decade so that you would not have the UEDF Characters coming to the rescue. And Dana could just have been a second child to maintain her story.

[ShadowLogan]

Actually, I'm referring to Harmony Gold's official positions on the ships, mecha, personnel, etc....

"Light on the details" is putting it mildly when it comes to the profound absence of detail in Southern Cross's OSM.

That information though in question seems to be at direct odds with the material it is supposed to be supporting though. I have to wonder when the last time TBTB actually watched that arc to generate said material (that's probably true of PB to when they did the SBs).

Supposed to be... but Harmony Gold doesn't always treat it as such.

It almost seems like they have a "do as I say not as I do" approach to this.

Isn't a multi-role superiority fighter, nor could it be.

Why should that be a negative factor?

Terrible aerodynamics

I have serious doubts that the Logan is being portrayed correctly in the support media. It may not even be intended for atmospheric work, or even CAS, but pressed into the role.

Reliance on low output weapons

How do you categorize low output weapons?

In 1E RPG: 1d6x10MD at 2400meters, 1d4x10MD at 1200m, and 6d6 at 1200m all for the combined HTH attacks. Those are the the most powerful mecha guns in the 1E game for Veritech Fighters. They do more damage and at better range than any other VF gun system (Shadow/Vindicator's disrupter cannons don't have the range, they do have that niffty force field thing) in terms of range/damage/per-melee-damage.

In 2E RPG: yes the weapons have been NERFED terribly.

Only 2 modes, and it's small. Designed for war in an army lead by a guy who hates zentradi and it can't even body slam them. Tsk tsk

I honestly don't see how two modes is bad. Even its small size has advantages.

The VF-1 routinely got is but kicked in melee, so avoiding melee confrontations would seem to be ideal.

Low armor, low (or non-existent) ordinance.

Low Armor? In 1E RPG the Logan has MORE TOTAL MDC than the VF-1 (you are supposed to parry with those shields after all, so the MB isn't as important). In the 2E it has less, but when you consider how much it has for its mass compared to the VF-1 (~68% for less than 1/2 the mass) it is pretty good.

Low/non-existent ordinance? What do you consider those energy weapons? Missiles aren't the defining factor in success. Most of the VF-1's kills are with guns, not missiles. So having better guns would seem to be more important than missiles going into the 2nd generation of VF design criteria if we look at the VF-1 to help establish requirements.

[Alrik Vas]

It seems you're piling a body of conflicting evidence against what I started was my opinion.

Multi-role is better as you need to support less materiel with fewer specialized mecha.

1st edition doesn't have any baring on 2nd edition. If you want to pick and choose which versions you want to use in games, by all means. Just don't base it's ability off of information that isn't valid with the current edition.

Above all, I dislike the Logan. If you want a smaller than VF-1 variable fighter, I hear they made this thing called an Alpha, and it's got pretty good armor, decent guns and lots of boom.

But...as far as the original post and questions I brought up earlier...I get physics is real and all, but can someone point out why the 3G ships are taken to be more maneuverable than RT ships? Never got an answer.

[Jefffar]

Not sure what this has to do with ships . . . can we get back to that please?

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

In all honesty, the damage and MDC stats for the Ikazuchi and Tristar need to be flipped; ie - the Tristar should have a hull with a ram prow, a hull with 75,000 MDC overall and the heavy torpedo's should be doing 2d4x100+60. The Bioroid Assault Corvette should have 2700 MDC (or more) while the Garfish should be reduced to 1200, not to mention the beam cannons on the Corvette should be significantly more powerful than comparable Earth-style or even Zentraedi cannons.

[ShadowLogan]

But...as far as the original post and questions I brought up earlier...I get physics is real and all, but can someone point out why the 3G ships are taken to be more maneuverable than RT ships? Never got an answer.

I'm PMing you about the Logan.

Re: to your question here. Probably because in RT their agility is likely based on the animation, where PW doesn't have that limitation. Plus PW setting makes Space Fold Drives unreliable IIRC (though it may just be the 3G hasn't figured out how to properly Fold given the Intruders use Space Folding) so RT ships overall mobility is much less.

[Seto Kaiba]

It wasn't, exactly, a hard conclusion to reach (esp. since in a previous topic you mention that MOSPEADA is supposed to be a SC-FI Normandy Invasion and, lets face it, if you're going to be invading planets you're going to need LSTs and troop transports. To be honest I think it would have been better if HG and the RPG left them as such instead of deciding they were warships.

Very true...

Though it must be admitted that even reclassifying them as LSTs and troop transports wouldn't solve the fundamental ship combat balance problem that makes the Zentradi and Mardook ships of Macross II and Robotech among the most powerful that exist in the Megaverse range, while the human ships are embarrassingly weak by comparison. The problem really comes down to two weird decisions:

• The Zentradi (and Mardook) ships in both games are given weapons ranges close to the stated ranges of various engagements from the original Macross series' first few episodes... and it's assumed, for whatever reason, that the Robotech Masters, who had basically forsaken war themselves and built the Zentradi to do their fighting for them, would arm their civilian ships as well or better than the dedicated military craft of their standing army.
  
• The Human ships built after their first alien war in either universe were built using Zentradi (and Meltrandi in M2) technology... either salvaged from scrapped and wrecked ships (RT) or built brand new from captured factory satellites (M2), but somehow that they're using the exact same technology as the Zentradi ships doesn't give them the same performance in the RPG stats.

Realistically, since the energy weapons in Southern Cross and MOSPEADA only have ranges of a few to a few dozen km, they could've made that the standard across all three sagas and all factions and it would've involved the least amount of changes to the setting while maintaining balance. Or they could have gone the other way and given the Earth ships weapons comparable to the enemy ships, whose performance is based on the Macross Zentradi to a large extent, since the Earth ships are allegedly built around Zentradi technology anyway. (Though, either way, the standard missile table definitely short-sells any ship-carried missile tech in Macross/Robotech... we see missiles with blast effects multiple kilometers across, and what we get is a missile with a blast radius smaller than a football field.)

The way it is now, the Mardook and the 1E Zentradi are on the far high side of the power curve... while the UN Spacy and UEDF/UEEF ships occupy the far low side of the power curve, and the game balance is skewed horribly against the players.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Plus PW setting makes Space Fold Drives unreliable IIRC (though it may just be the 3G hasn't figured out how to properly Fold given the Intruders use Space Folding) so RT ships overall mobility is much less.

IIRC, Robotech uses Hyper-space Fold drives... not the same ting as a simple space-fold drive.

[Seto Kaiba]

Re: to your question here. Probably because in RT their agility is likely based on the animation, where PW doesn't have that limitation. Plus PW setting makes Space Fold Drives unreliable IIRC (though it may just be the 3G hasn't figured out how to properly Fold given the Intruders use Space Folding) so RT ships overall mobility is much less.

The bit about fold drives may not actually apply to Macross II or Robotech fold drives, which both work on rather different principles from the Phase World fold drive technology.

IIRC, Phase World's fold tech is actually folding the fabric of our three-dimensional universe to circumvent distance. Fold technology from the Macross universe is manipulating the fabric of a higher-dimension sub-universe [adjacent to/above] reality, which has different physical laws. On the other hand, Robotech's fold drives are not folding anything... they're (officially) Alcubierre-effect warp drives.

I'm not certain where Robotech 2E's writers got the idea that fold drives had such aggressive range limitations though... in the Macross setting, fold systems have a range limited only by the amount of energy the ship is capable of producing/storing, and the chief factor affecting energy consumption is the size of the fold effect being produced. The fold ranges given in Robotech 2E's stats are short even by Macross's standards, and in Robotech the one clear-cut case of range-vs-time is a fold trip from another galaxy...

[camk4evr]

It wasn't, exactly, a hard conclusion to reach (esp. since in a previous topic you mention that MOSPEADA is supposed to be a SC-FI Normandy Invasion and, lets face it, if you're going to be invading planets you're going to need LSTs and troop transports. To be honest I think it would have been better if HG and the RPG left them as such instead of deciding they were warships.

Actually, I posted the above. Lt Gargoyle screwed up the quote when he replied.

[ShadowLogan]

The bit about fold drives may not actually apply to Macross II or Robotech fold drives, which both work on rather different principles from the Phase World fold drive technology.

Well the exact wording in DB2 does leave it open to not applying to M2/RT IF they are not viewed as an actual part of the Megaverse that is being referred to, but still accessible to it. ("Other cultures of the Megaverse have developed space-fold drives, but this system has a lot of risks. For reasons unknown , space-fold drives are very likely to malfunction in the [3G]." (DB3pg152)

There is at least one block in PW that uses Space-Fold technology (The Intruders found spread out in DB3), apparently w/o difficulty. Which makes me think it may come down more to a level of technological maturity with the systems from an engineering standpoint than anything else. After all jet engines are more reliable now than they where in the 40. RT/M2 fall in to the category of technological maturity given the age of the systems.

I'm not certain where Robotech 2E's writers got the idea that fold drives had such aggressive range limitations though...

Probably to be "internally" consistent with the megaversal system's other examples of the technology, not necessarily any basis is the show would be my guess. Though IIRC RT does fairly well in terms of "jump distance" compared to the one known system to work in PW (what with ratings in parsecs vs lightyears) and that I'm familiar with.

Robotech the one clear-cut case of range-vs-time is a fold trip from another galaxy...

And with a fuel crunch to boot, which further suggests the range/time is a matter of available energy/fuel and nothing else.

[glitterboy2098]

actually the concept of the limit would be from Episode 30: "Viva Miriya", where Breetai's flagship had dropped out of fold part way to the factory sat. which is why they found the wrecked zent "scout" ship Lisa hayes wanted to investigate. the scene is about 10 minutes in. their first fold jump was 6 minutes in. the fact that no one thought it weird they were not in hyperspace fold means that dropping out and spending a bit of time in realspace is a common thing in the setting for such trips. and it is highly unlikely that the wreck was the reason, as we have zero evidence of ships being able to sense realspace stuff while in hyperspace, and exedor and breetai are shown to consider the wreck to be of no consequence and not in anyway notable.

the distance numbers would seem to be based on the narrators comments at 11:30 minutes in.. when breetai's ship folds in to the factory sat's location, it's described as "hundreds of parsecs from earth" since the ship too at least 2 jumps to cross at minimum 200 parsecs, they probably just went with a lower number to make things more interesting


still, being able to jump 300-500 light years in one go isn't too bad. you'd be able to reach nearly any of the known exoplanets IRL with only a few jumps. the milky way would be a couple hundred jumps across (less with the longer range Nichols drive version introduced in prelude and used in shadow chronicles). far enough that getting anywhere is a decent rip, but short enough that stories can play out over vast distances.


and Seto, as i have pointed out time and again the nearest galaxy to the milky way is actually only a few hundred light years.
the Canis Major Dwarf Galaxy has stretched out streamers of stars interpenetrating the disc of the milkyway, as does the larger Saggitarious Dwarf galaxy. both have parts that pass through very close to our solar system.
artist rendition of them loosly based on astronomical survey's: http://www.thelivingmoon.com/44cosmic_w ... 07-008.jpg
and it is also worth noting that the show never actually says that the masters did the trip in only one jump.. just that they ran out power for the fold drive a few light years from earth.