New Sourcebook Suggestions.

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New Sourcebook Suggestions.

Unread post by thorr-kan »

Robotech: Unfinished Business: The Malcontent Uprisings. Worldwide action as the Zentraedi are acculturated (or NOT!).

Robotech: Last Stand: The Fall of the Southern Cross. Fun and games in the wake of the Second Robotech War, prepping for and failing against the Invid Invasion.

Robotech: Red Sword Falling: The Mars Division Invasions. Well, we made it to Earth. Now what?!
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Re: New Sourcebook Suggestions.

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

thorr-kan wrote:Robotech: Unfinished Business: The Malcontent Uprisings. Worldwide action as the Zentraedi are acculturated (or NOT!).

Not a bad idea, if Harmony Gold could be persuaded to cough up details on the period... tho if From the Stars is anything to go by, it'd be a pretty light book, mechanically.


thorr-kan wrote:Robotech: Last Stand: The Fall of the Southern Cross. Fun and games in the wake of the Second Robotech War, prepping for and failing against the Invid Invasion.

By in large, isn't this already kind of covered? The mecha and OCCs are already in the Masters Saga book, the Invid stats are in the core book, and the New Generation book has all the stuff about surviving on occupied Earth.


thorr-kan wrote:Robotech: Red Sword Falling: The Mars Division Invasions. Well, we made it to Earth. Now what?!

Pretty much the same story... their mecha are already in the core book (Condor & Conbat for 1st ERF, Alphas and Betas for 2nd, the Shadow fighter for 3rd) and so are the OCCs and Invid stats, and the bits for survivors and Invid prisoners are in the New Gen book.
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Re: New Sourcebook Suggestions.

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thorr-kan wrote:Robotech: Unfinished Business: The Malcontent Uprisings. Worldwide action as the Zentraedi are acculturated (or NOT!).

Robotech: Last Stand: The Fall of the Southern Cross. Fun and games in the wake of the Second Robotech War, prepping for and failing against the Invid Invasion.

Robotech: Red Sword Falling: The Mars Division Invasions. Well, we made it to Earth. Now what?!

So what you are really looking for is some type of detailed time line?

As Seto mentioned, the last two can be somewhat worked out from the existing material of books. The TRM SB basically says how the mecha faired against the Invid.

I don't think the first would be very interesting. Its sort of been done to death with 1E books (Strike Force, New World Order, Zentreadi Breakout, RDF Accelerated Training, to an extent Ghost Ship and RDF Manual and maybe Zentreadi SB there are only 2-3 campaign books that aren't setup for the period "Return of the Masters", "REF Fieldguide" if you count its module in the back, and "Lancer's Rockers").
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Re: New Sourcebook Suggestions.

Unread post by thorr-kan »

Nothing's been done 2ED, though.

I enjoy the current books, but I enjoy Genesis Pits the most. I want to see similar sourcebooks fill in the non-televised eras. And I don't think the current sourcebooks do it.
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Re: New Sourcebook Suggestions.

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

thorr-kan wrote:Nothing's been done 2ED, though.

I enjoy the current books, but I enjoy Genesis Pits the most. I want to see similar sourcebooks fill in the non-televised eras. And I don't think the current sourcebooks do it.

Eh... the game's first edition had a lot of holes and a lot of areas where Palladium resorted to creating its own original filler material after they ran out of material that was actually from Robotech. They can't really do that now, because Harmony Gold wants to keep things close to canon, so there's a whole bunch of material (plot devices and mecha) that are off the table for inclusion in new books because they conflict with official material.

Such as it is, all of those scenarios can be run right now with just the material that's already available in the five current books... so those would be pretty thin books with virtually everything that'd go into them already in existing books.
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Re: New Sourcebook Suggestions.

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thorr-kan wrote:Nothing's been done 2ED, though.

I enjoy the current books, but I enjoy Genesis Pits the most. I want to see similar sourcebooks fill in the non-televised eras. And I don't think the current sourcebooks do it.

If nothings been done in 2E, then adapt the 1E material for the Malcontent period. Plus you can draw upon the old comics that covered the period or the novels. There is plenty to draw upon for inspiration.

Filler books like this for the non-TV periods are unlikely until HG decides to either provide the information for a canon setting OR allow the RPG to branch off into its own respective universe in terms of development. The 1st is probably more likely than the 2nd, and I'd put long odds on the 1st happening, though the 2nd would not be a bad development IMHO.

Seto wrote:where Palladium resorted to creating its own original filler material after they ran out of material that was actually from Robotech.

Not quite, there was definitely some material they didn't bother with from actual Robotech show, some of which played larger plot points than others (Condor, Conbat, Protoculture Bio-Emulator, Pupil Pistol system, etc). To say than ran out of material would be wrong.
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Re: New Sourcebook Suggestions.

Unread post by Chris0013 »

Books dealing with the UEEF colonization efforts.
I know it is a little extreme to advocate the death penalty for stupidity...but can't we just remove all the warning labels and let nature take it's course???
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Re: New Sourcebook Suggestions.

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

Chris0013 wrote:Books dealing with the UEEF colonization efforts.

Er... that's gonna be an even shorter book.

Arguably, just two words long: "They didn't."

(Depending on how you want to interpret the awkward phrasing in the Shadow Chronicles artbook, Earth's first generation ships were either recalled or never launched because of their lack of defenses and the opening of multiple war fronts. The old, mothballed Angel-class ships were converted into delivery systems for neutron-s warheads in the 2040s, and ironically the incomplete next generation Ark Angel-class colony ships meant to replace them were destroyed in 2044... by a neutron-s warhead detonation in the UEEF shipyards. The sole surviving example of the class was immediately pressed into service as a warship because its shadow technology systems were not fully integrated yet.)
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Re: New Sourcebook Suggestions.

Unread post by SRoss »

They could use the source books to reinsert some of the first edition material in an updated form. E.B.I.S.I.S. and the Zentreadi Control Zone. Maybe recycle some of the Mecha designs as Stingers or as precursors to the Southern Cross/U.E.E.F. Mecha. They could put the ships in.
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Re: New Sourcebook Suggestions.

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

actually Seto.. while that is your interpretation, there is nothing to indicate that colonization DIDN'T happen, and a fair amount of evidence in the new canon comics to suggest that colonization was at least attempted.. especialyl since it's been established that the 'gloval initiative' of colonization was one of the key missions of the UEEF when it was founded.

and the bit in the comics with the angel class colony ships never said they were never used.. just that they'd been mothballed because they weren't very defensible. so they could well have been used, colonies founded, then the ships mothballed when the UEEF found the master's empire and military concerns became a bigger deal.

so in the actual canon the question of colonies is open and unanswered.. though the implications are positive. so a book on them is certainly viable in the RPG.
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Re: New Sourcebook Suggestions.

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They could do The ROBOTECH Academy source book. Again, it would be a rather short book.
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Re: New Sourcebook Suggestions.

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

Right now, as far as new sourcebooks go, it looks like the next few books are going to be a retread of the "broad strokes" of what used to be Sentinels... tying that loose end up to Shadow Chronicles. Apart from that, I think they're sort of stymied in terms of viable material for sourcebooks, unless Harmony Gold takes 'em off the leash.





glitterboy2098 wrote:actually Seto.. while that is your interpretation, there is nothing to indicate that colonization DIDN'T happen, and a fair amount of evidence in the new canon comics to suggest that colonization was at least attempted..

That's an unsubstantiated remark right there... your link proves what we already knew, that colonization was a long-term goal of the UEEF on paper. It doesn't prove that any progress was actually made towards that long-term goal, apart from the fact that the ships for that purpose were built and then either abandoned or destroyed. The only real area of ambiguity is in AotSC, where vague wording makes it unclear whether the Angel-class was launched and recalled, or never launched to begin with.

(Unfortunately, as production notes from Shadow Chronicles reveal the Ark Angel was always intended to be the ongoing story's analogue for the SDF-1 and a warship rather than a colony ship, the likelihood that there ARE colonies is very slim. With the Shadow Rising "movie" and Robotech Academy effectively canceled for want of a budget, we'll likely never know for 100 percent certain. If we're going to talk what-ifs, let's do it by PM so as to not irk Jefffar.)
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Re: New Sourcebook Suggestions.

Unread post by eliakon »

Seto Kaiba wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:actually Seto.. while that is your interpretation, there is nothing to indicate that colonization DIDN'T happen, and a fair amount of evidence in the new canon comics to suggest that colonization was at least attempted..

That's an unsubstantiated remark right there... your link proves what we already knew, that colonization was a long-term goal of the UEEF on paper. It doesn't prove that any progress was actually made towards that long-term goal, apart from the fact that the ships for that purpose were built and then either abandoned or destroyed. The only real area of ambiguity is in AotSC, where vague wording makes it unclear whether the Angel-class was launched and recalled, or never launched to begin with.

(Unfortunately, as production notes from Shadow Chronicles reveal the Ark Angel was always intended to be the ongoing story's analogue for the SDF-1 and a warship rather than a colony ship, the likelihood that there ARE colonies is very slim. With the Shadow Rising "movie" and Robotech Academy effectively canceled for want of a budget, we'll likely never know for 100 percent certain. If we're going to talk what-ifs, let's do it by PM so as to not irk Jefffar.)

Its equally unsubstantiated that there were no colonies. Especially since there is AFAIK no canon statement that the mothballed ships are the ONLY colony ships ever made. They could easily have made and launched a wave of them, and canceled wave 2 after defense issues came up. We don't know enough about the issue to make a definitive statement beyond "there were a mothballed fleet of colony ships, that may or may not have been used and may or may not represent the entire production run of said ships."
Another point to consider is that they had to have had SOMEPLACE for the people to be breeding all this time (unless they all lived their entire lives, including childhood/primary schooling) on warships. I find it especially telling that Scott mentions that earth is 'almost as vast a Spheris' when he was young, and supposedly not a hardened veteran......suggesting to me that he grew up on Spheris (which would then be a colony, even if it was also possibly a war zone)
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Re: New Sourcebook Suggestions.

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and if they had colonization as a founding element of their charter, it is incredibly unbelievable that they didn't at least attempt to follow through. maybe they didn't do it as much as expected, maybe the result wasn't wholly what was planned.. but putting something major like that in your charter, even naming yourself after the concept (the pioneer mission, SDF-3 pioneer, etc).. and never following through? not even once, early on? that's highly implausible..
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Re: New Sourcebook Suggestions.

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glitterboy2098 wrote:and if they had colonization as a founding element of their charter, it is incredibly unbelievable that they didn't at least attempt to follow through. maybe they didn't do it as much as expected, maybe the result wasn't wholly what was planned.. but putting something major like that in your charter, even naming yourself after the concept (the pioneer mission, SDF-3 pioneer, etc).. and never following through? not even once, early on? that's highly implausible..

It would also help explain things like the returning ship in Southern Cross, or their problem with 'space pirates'.....
I mean who were those pirates raiding otherwise?
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Re: New Sourcebook Suggestions.

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

eliakon wrote:Its equally unsubstantiated that there were no colonies. Especially since there is AFAIK no canon statement that the mothballed ships are the ONLY colony ships ever made.

*sigh* Please refer to AotSC's entries for the Neutron-S missile and Ark Angel-class. The Angel-class ships were the early colony ships, and were either withdrawn or never launched (the wording is unclear), and their direct successors were the Ark Angel-class, which were destroyed before construction was even finished.


eliakon wrote:Another point to consider is that they had to have had SOMEPLACE for the people to be breeding all this time (unless they all lived their entire lives, including childhood/primary schooling) on warships.

Growing up out in deep space on a warship would be entirely consistent with the dialog of the first episode of the New Generation, where the crew of Scott's Horizon shuttle says they all grew up in deep space on a Robotech ship.


eliakon wrote:I find it especially telling that Scott mentions that earth is 'almost as vast a Spheris' when he was young, and supposedly not a hardened veteran......suggesting to me that he grew up on Spheris (which would then be a colony, even if it was also possibly a war zone)

You may have misremembered... the actual line from the series was "as vast as Venus", which was Scott's reaction to seeing the desert for the first time.

Of course, Venus is one of the few planets , in Earth's solar system NOT mentioned to have some kind of UEEF military base on it... and, as far as we know, the New Generation was Scott's first time visiting the Sol system.




glitterboy2098 wrote:and if they had colonization as a founding element of their charter, it is incredibly unbelievable that they didn't at least attempt to follow through.

Personally, I'd call the extent of the construction program for the tragically-unused colony ships a pretty decent attempt at following that directive, even if the efforts didn't bear fruit. They built big, and then lost contact with the population the colonists were meant to be coming from, remember?


glitterboy2098 wrote:maybe they didn't do it as much as expected, maybe the result wasn't wholly what was planned.. but putting something major like that in your charter, even naming yourself after the concept (the pioneer mission, SDF-3 pioneer, etc).. and never following through? not even once, early on? that's highly implausible..

What we're told in Prelude is that they've basically been warlocked with the Regent for the entire time they've been away from the Earth... it's not surprising in the least that they never got around to even building a workable set of colony ships until 2043 or so.

EDIT: It's also worth noting that Prelude's summary of the Pioneer mission doesn't mention colonization at all... only that it was a mission "to intercept these threats* at their source in deep space".

* Per the text, "Forces seeking control of the coveted technology known as robotech".
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Re: New Sourcebook Suggestions.

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Seto wrote:(Depending on how you want to interpret the awkward phrasing in the Shadow Chronicles artbook, Earth's first generation ships were either recalled or never launched because of their lack of defenses and the opening of multiple war fronts. The old, mothballed Angel-class ships were converted into delivery systems for neutron-s warheads in the 2040s, and ironically the incomplete next generation Ark Angel-class colony ships meant to replace them were destroyed in 2044... by a neutron-s warhead detonation in the UEEF shipyards. The sole surviving example of the class was immediately pressed into service as a warship because its shadow technology systems were not fully integrated yet.)

And yet we have indications from the show itself about encountering "Space Pirates". For the UEEF to exist 15 years w/o Earth strongly suggests they have to have at least one major space habitat ("O'Niel colony type) if not surface outposts/colonies. Though statements in 85ep makes it clear potentially an entire generation was born in deep space on ships (which can double as colonies), though that doesn't mean they couldn't be raised/immigrated to worlds (they need a source of food after all).

Any "Colonies" set up though likely would fall into several categories concerning location:
1. Intra-Solar (Mars, Gas Giant Moons, Luna, if we believe Scott Venus potentially). 85ep does allow for Lunar bases (which could be seen as Colonies), we know Mars has facilities at one time and potentially could be revisited (Scott's cut short claim from being from Mars, could indicate Mars was settled), and Venus (depending on how one wants to interpret Scott).
2. Workable Worlds that can be made habitable (terra forming), or offer something of value in materials (mining for industry).
3. Space Habitats. These would be akin to O'Niel Colonies in the 70s that are built in space. I would also put down Space Arks in this category.
4. Habitable Worlds. These run the risk of encountering natives though, which could explain the resistance the UEEF colonization met.

Seto wrote:and, as far as we know, the New Generation was Scott's first time visiting the Sol system.

I don't think we can quite say that given his comment about Venus. About all we can be sure is that he hasn't visited Earth before.

SRoss wrote:They could use the source books to reinsert some of the first edition material in an updated form. E.B.I.S.I.S. and the Zentreadi Control Zone. Maybe recycle some of the Mecha designs as Stingers or as precursors to the Southern Cross/U.E.E.F. Mecha. They could put the ships in.

Do they really need to put that stuff in a book though. Stingers are basically IMUs in the current setting. I don't think its that difficult to import/update materials form 1E, or even just plug them in as is.

SRoss wrote:They could do The ROBOTECH Academy source book. Again, it would be a rather short book.

They could if HG was willing to provide enough material to make the book work. Though it would likely have to be setup as a campaign module I would think to really work, other wise it would be too short unless they have other material sources to pad the book with.

eliakon wrote:Another point to consider is that they had to have had SOMEPLACE for the people to be breeding all this time (unless they all lived their entire lives, including childhood/primary schooling) on warships. I find it especially telling that Scott mentions that earth is 'almost as vast a Spheris' when he was young, and supposedly not a hardened veteran......suggesting to me that he grew up on Spheris (which would then be a colony, even if it was also possibly a war zone)

1st: Actually per the Horizon-T crew Scott was with in NG#1, "we where all born out in deep space aboard a robotech ship". Though it is clear he is talking about his contemporaries (and not their C.O). That doesn't require the ship to be a warship, so they could have mobile O'Niel Colonies or Space Arks essentially, or converted sections of the RFS (or other captured ones). That also doesn't mean they can't have settled on worlds after birth though Scott's unfamiliarity with weather... would suggest worlds are less than ideal.

2nd. In the show itself, Spheris (and other Sentinel Worlds era worlds) is not mentioned, in the show it is a reference to Venus actually. The Novelization DID change the line, I can't be sure about the old comics as I really don't have them.
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Re: New Sourcebook Suggestions.

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

ShadowLogan wrote:And yet we have indications from the show itself about encountering "Space Pirates".

Who, to be entirely fair, may not be human... if they exist at all. It wouldn't be the first time the UEDF engaged in a cover-up that was intended to disguise more disquieting losses of life.

(It occurs to me that might be how the UEG explained away the loss of life when the Masters destroyed their advance recon force... "space pirates got 'em!")



ShadowLogan wrote:For the UEEF to exist 15 years w/o Earth strongly suggests they have to have at least one major space habitat ("O'Niel colony type) if not surface outposts/colonies.

Thus far, the closest thing they have to a "Space habitat" that we know officially exists are the factory satellites... that and the big UEEF compound on Tirol's surface. The orbital bases at Mars might count, and it's doubtful the bases at Jupiter and Neptune are in the planetary atmosphere, so they might count for that as well.



ShadowLogan wrote:1. Intra-Solar (Mars, Gas Giant Moons, Luna, if we believe Scott Venus potentially). 85ep does allow for Lunar bases (which could be seen as Colonies), we know Mars has facilities at one time and potentially could be revisited (Scott's cut short claim from being from Mars, could indicate Mars was settled), and Venus (depending on how one wants to interpret Scott).

Prelude explicitly mentions colonies on the moon and Mars... though curiously they forgot other planets known to have UEEF bases, like Jupiter and Neptune.



There might be book fodder there, in covering the UEEF's various known bases and other installations around the galaxy... if those things aren't already earmarked for the Marines book(s)?
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Re: New Sourcebook Suggestions.

Unread post by eliakon »

Seto Kaiba wrote:
eliakon wrote:Its equally unsubstantiated that there were no colonies. Especially since there is AFAIK no canon statement that the mothballed ships are the ONLY colony ships ever made.

*sigh* Please refer to AotSC's entries for the Neutron-S missile and Ark Angel-class. The Angel-class ships were the early colony ships, and were either withdrawn or never launched (the wording is unclear), and their direct successors were the Ark Angel-class, which were destroyed before construction was even finished.

As I said though. The wording does not say that the ships were never used. NOR does it say that they were the ONLY ones.
Just that the Angel ships were early colony ships. And well....if they were withdrawn then they had to be deployed first. (its sort of in the definition of the world withdrawn....). So your making my point FOR me.
That the Angle ships may have been used to seed colonies, and then withdrawn. Okay cool.
This is especially useful since in the RPG book it explicitly offers 'colonist' as an option does it not? And since this forum is about the RPG.......
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Re: New Sourcebook Suggestions.

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

eliakon wrote:As I said though. The wording does not say that the ships were never used.

No, in fact the most literal reading of the text indicates they never finished building them before the decision was made to scrub the whole plan.


eliakon wrote:NOR does it say that they were the ONLY ones.

It sure as heck doesn't say, or even hint, that there were others. :wink:

What it DOES say is that the Angel-class ships were not defensible enough to use and that the Ark Angel-class was built with defense in mind to be their replacement.


eliakon wrote:Just that the Angel ships were early colony ships. And well....if they were withdrawn then they had to be deployed first. (its sort of in the definition of the world withdrawn....). So your making my point FOR me.

Don't be in such a hurry to thank me... because if they were launched and then withdrawn, that doesn't mean they managed to find planets worth colonizing. That's far and away the less literal and more charitable interpretation of the two, as well... as the ONLY colonies ever mentioned are within the Sol system.


eliakon wrote:This is especially useful since in the RPG book it explicitly offers 'colonist' as an option does it not?

Does it? It doesn't look like it does.

There is no "Colonist" OCC in any of the five books released so far. There's only one Civilian OCC, and that's in the Macross Saga sourcebook, and it mentions nothing of space colonization. The Explorer Corps OCCs in the Genesis Pits books don't mention any space colonization either. The closest you get is the "Place of Birth" table in the core book, which has the option "Born on Tirol or another planet". The only other options given are Earth, Moon, Mars, and "on a ship in deep space".
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Re: New Sourcebook Suggestions.

Unread post by eliakon »

Seto Kaiba wrote:
eliakon wrote:As I said though. The wording does not say that the ships were never used.

No, in fact the most literal reading of the text indicates they never finished building them before the decision was made to scrub the whole plan.

That's one interpretation of the text. When I read it I get a different interpretation. That suggests that there are multiple interpretations to this....
As 'the most literal reading' is rarely the 'go to' guide for figuring out things.....

eliakon wrote:NOR does it say that they were the ONLY ones.

It sure as heck doesn't say, or even hint, that there were others. :wink:

What it DOES say is that the Angel-class ships were not defensible enough to use and that the Ark Angel-class was built with defense in mind to be their replacement.[/quote]
My comment was that those ships that got blown up were not necessarily ALL the Angel class ships ever.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
eliakon wrote:Just that the Angel ships were early colony ships. And well....if they were withdrawn then they had to be deployed first. (its sort of in the definition of the world withdrawn....). So your making my point FOR me.

Don't be in such a hurry to thank me... because if they were launched and then withdrawn, that doesn't mean they managed to find planets worth colonizing. That's far and away the less literal and more charitable interpretation of the two, as well... as the ONLY colonies ever mentioned are within the Sol system.

The simple fact is that almost NOTHING is said about what happened off in space. So the fact that they don't tell us that their are colonies is no sort of proof that they don't exist.
As I said, we know that these ships were used at least long enough to be withdrawn.
Now you can make a (totally unsubstantiated) claim that they didn't find anything.....but there is nothing in the official material to back up that contention. Combined with the fact that they did use the ships at least some, and that colonization was the whole purpose of the mission it would seem most likely that they did, in fact...do some colonizing.....

Seto Kaiba wrote:
eliakon wrote:This is especially useful since in the RPG book it explicitly offers 'colonist' as an option does it not?

Does it? It doesn't look like it does.

There is no "Colonist" OCC in any of the five books released so far. There's only one Civilian OCC, and that's in the Macross Saga sourcebook, and it mentions nothing of space colonization. The Explorer Corps OCCs in the Genesis Pits books don't mention any space colonization either. The closest you get is the "Place of Birth" table in the core book, which has the option "Born on Tirol or another planet". The only other options given are Earth, Moon, Mars, and "on a ship in deep space".

So then what planet did they come from?
If its 'another planet' and they were from space......
Especially if your claiming that the regular military just grew up on spaceships.....
A planet producing people would, to me, be sort of the definition of a colony.....
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Re: New Sourcebook Suggestions.

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Seto wrote:Who, to be entirely fair, may not be human... if they exist at all. It wouldn't be the first time the UEDF engaged in a cover-up that was intended to disguise more disquieting losses of life.

(It occurs to me that might be how the UEG explained away the loss of life when the Masters destroyed their advance recon force... "space pirates got 'em!")

Oh I agree a percentage of Space Pirates can be non-human, but description itself seems more catch-all than referring to a specific faction/group.

I don't think the "Space Pirates" as Masters works, because when the idea is proposed in 2029 it gets discounted for two reasons: apparent human beings and the use of Robotech spaceships.

Seto wrote:Thus far, the closest thing they have to a "Space habitat" that we know officially exists are the factory satellites... that and the big UEEF compound on Tirol's surface. The orbital bases at Mars might count, and it's doubtful the bases at Jupiter and Neptune are in the planetary atmosphere, so they might count for that as well.

Depending on the service period of the Angel-class they would also be candidates, depending on when (what period) we are talking about.

Seto wrote:There might be book fodder there, in covering the UEEF's various known bases and other installations around the galaxy... if those things aren't already earmarked for the Marines book(s)?

There is a lot of book material out there, the question is if its really necessary to go the RPG route. Which only makes sense if you have game mechanic stats and information for equipment, OCCs, races, and NPCs that need to be fleshed out. Without them, it would seem to be easier to just go the route of an "Art book" type format for them.
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Re: New Sourcebook Suggestions.

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

ShadowLogan wrote:Oh I agree a percentage of Space Pirates can be non-human, but description itself seems more catch-all than referring to a specific faction/group.

's possible there's more than one species engaging in space-piracy.


ShadowLogan wrote:I don't think the "Space Pirates" as Masters works, because when the idea is proposed in 2029 it gets discounted for two reasons: apparent human beings and the use of Robotech spaceships.

There may be real space pirates somewhere out there, and the UEDF just used them as an excuse to cover up other losses related to potential alien invasion the way the Anti-Unification League became the convenient blame figure for the first offensive behind the Zentradi invasion.


ShadowLogan wrote:Depending on the service period of the Angel-class they would also be candidates, depending on when (what period) we are talking about.

Additional clarification offered by Harmony Gold on the "original Pioneer expedition" comment in Prelude points to Angel-class construction having taken place between 2016 and 2022, and was suspended when the SDF-3 arrived a Tirol sometime in either December 2022 or January 2023. From the description, it sounds as though construction of the Angel-class was suspended at a point where the spaceframe, engines, and other core systems were in place but before the all-important habitat modules were either built or delivered.

Between the AotSC and Prelude descriptions, it sounds as if the Ark Angel-class was in development for almost the entire 22 year span the UEEF was away from Earth. :shock:


ShadowLogan wrote:There is a lot of book material out there, the question is if its really necessary to go the RPG route. Which only makes sense if you have game mechanic stats and information for equipment, OCCs, races, and NPCs that need to be fleshed out. Without them, it would seem to be easier to just go the route of an "Art book" type format for them.

Hrm... you have a point there, for sure.
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Re: New Sourcebook Suggestions.

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

Seto Kaiba wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:Depending on the service period of the Angel-class they would also be candidates, depending on when (what period) we are talking about.

Additional clarification offered by Harmony Gold on the "original Pioneer expedition" comment in Prelude points to Angel-class construction having taken place between 2016 and 2022, and was suspended when the SDF-3 arrived a Tirol sometime in either December 2022 or January 2023. From the description, it sounds as though construction of the Angel-class was suspended at a point where the spaceframe, engines, and other core systems were in place but before the all-important habitat modules were either built or delivered.

Between the AotSC and Prelude descriptions, it sounds as if the Ark Angel-class was in development for almost the entire 22 year span the UEEF was away from Earth. :shock:


or what is far, far, far, far more likely, the Angel class was designed and put into service after only a couple years (like all the other classes of ship in robotech we see), probably 2016-2018ish served for a few years in their primary role, then most were retired and mothballed after contact with the Regent's invid (which actually seems to have been closer to 2030ish), with the last ones off the shipyard going almost immediately into mothballs. (mothballing usually involves leaving the hull and drives and such intact but set up for storage, but things like weapons, advanced sensors, and the like removed.. since those invariably require more maintenance to keep at the required readiness levels)

and even if the UEEF suspended efforts at colonization in 2023, they have from 2011 to 2023 to set up colonies.. and you don't actually need dedicated colony ships to do that. hell, all they really need is a single zent warship capable of a one way trip, load it up with a colony group and a volunteer crew of zents, a bunch of prefab colony gear, and send it out.. and they certainly had thousands of zent ships to work with in 2012.
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Re: New Sourcebook Suggestions.

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

glitterboy2098 wrote:or what is far, far, far, far more likely, the Angel class was designed and put into service after only a couple years (like all the other classes of ship in robotech we see), the first one launched in 2016, [...]

No, that would not be more likely... it would simply be in contradiction of all the available evidence.

These ships are said to have been built for the Pioneer mission's alleged long-term goal of colonizing other worlds... a mission that didn't kick off until 2022, and preliminary navigational surveys for which didn't start until 2016. So your entire assertion here does not fit with the official timeline. If the exploration of space for future colonization didn't begin until 2022 with the Pioneer mission's launch, and it takes approximately eight years to build and outfit a ship the size of the SDF-3 even with factory satellite to support construction, there's no wiggle room for these ships to have ever been active. At best, if the factory satellite's many problems did not slow down construction, that would put the ships as being ready just in time for the program they were built for to be canceled.

The ships are not described as ever having been launched, let alone established a colony somewhere.

Neither the canon Robotech continuity nor the RPG's current edition make any reference to extrasolar colonies... because the official setting simply doesn't have them. Both the old (now "broad strokes") Sentinels arc resolved in Prelude and the RPG's core book stick with the contention that there are pretty much no civilians in deep space unless you count kids that are born on the Expeditionary Forces warships, space stations, or garrisons like Tiresia. Everything Harmony Gold has published indicates that the "old" colony ships were never used, and the new ones were never going to be used for their theoretically intended purpose (Ark Angel was always earmarked to become a sort of new SDF-1, carrying refugees from Liberty station). Even the leaked outline from Shadow Rising and the plans to conclude the OVA make no mention of colonies. The RPG has had plenty of downright golden opportunities to mention them, but even the exploration corps (which you'd think would be the perfect place to talk about it) forgets colonies completely and presents them solely as a sort of Starfleet first contact team.



glitterboy2098 wrote:and you don;t actually need dedicated colony ships to do that. hell, all they really need is a single zent warship capable of a one way trip, load it up with a colony group and a volunteer crew of zents, a bunch of prefab colony gear, and send it out.. and they certainly had thousands of zent ships to work with in 2012.

Thousands? Unlikely... the comics suggest they might've. at one point, had about a dozen working ones left when they used them to bury New Macross City, but the RPG suggests surviving Zentradi ships were broken up for parts to build new UEEF and UEDF ships.

(The basic idea is sound, and has OSM precedent via Macross, but will never be done because of the fundamental legal issues surrounding the usage of the Macross IP.)
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Re: New Sourcebook Suggestions.

Unread post by eliakon »

Seto Kaiba wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:or what is far, far, far, far more likely, the Angel class was designed and put into service after only a couple years (like all the other classes of ship in robotech we see), the first one launched in 2016, [...]

No, that would not be more likely... it would simply be in contradiction of all the available evidence.

These ships are said to have been built for the Pioneer mission's alleged long-term goal of colonizing other worlds... a mission that didn't kick off until 2022, and preliminary navigational surveys for which didn't start until 2016. So your entire assertion here does not fit with the official timeline.

Can you provide the source for this timeline please? Once I can look at this in detail I can make a more informed discussion on it.

Seto Kaiba wrote:If the exploration of space for future colonization didn't begin until 2022 with the Pioneer mission's launch, and it takes approximately eight years to build and outfit a ship the size of the SDF-3 even with factory satellite to support construction, there's no wiggle room for these ships to have ever been active. At best, if the factory satellite's many problems did not slow down construction, that would put the ships as being ready just in time for the program they were built for to be canceled.

Again this presupposes the conclusion.
The argument is that if they didn't build these until it was to late, then they were too late.
That's not a valid logical argument, since it is only true if the conclusion is allowed to be the premise


Seto Kaiba wrote:The ships are not described as ever having been launched, let alone established a colony somewhere.

They were 'recalled'. Not just simply canceled, not 'never launched' recalled. You have to be deployed to get a recall order. So yes there is a canon description of tem being launched.

Seto Kaiba wrote:Neither the canon Robotech continuity nor the RPG's current edition make any reference to extrasolar colonies... because the official setting simply doesn't have them.

Again your breaking logic. Here you are saying that lack of proof of something is proof of the lack. That is not how logic works. To prove that colonies don't exist you need more than just 'well I don't see any mentioned' (Especially when there is material provided that supports the contention that their ARE colonies. Ie space pirates, recalled colony ships, et multiple cetera)

Seto Kaiba wrote:Both the old (now "broad strokes") Sentinels arc resolved in Prelude and the RPG's core book stick with the contention that there are pretty much no civilians in deep space unless you count kids that are born on the Expeditionary Forces warships, space stations, or garrisons like Tiresia.

Again that's an over broad assertian, AND again it says that simply because we have not seen a thing yet, that it does not (and can not) exist. By that logic there are no bathrooms on the space ships, and no one has to use them.....because we do not see them in the animation, nor are they described.

Seto Kaiba wrote: Everything Harmony Gold has published indicates that the "old" colony ships were never used, and the new ones were never going to be used for their theoretically intended purpose (Ark Angel was always earmarked to become a sort of new SDF-1, carrying refugees from Liberty station). Even the leaked outline from Shadow Rising and the plans to conclude the OVA make no mention of colonies. The RPG has had plenty of downright golden opportunities to mention them, but even the exploration corps (which you'd think would be the perfect place to talk about it) forgets colonies completely and presents them solely as a sort of Starfleet first contact team.

Except that the official description of the Angel class explicitly DOES say they were used (hence the need to 'recall' them)




Seto Kaiba wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:and you don;t actually need dedicated colony ships to do that. hell, all they really need is a single zent warship capable of a one way trip, load it up with a colony group and a volunteer crew of zents, a bunch of prefab colony gear, and send it out.. and they certainly had thousands of zent ships to work with in 2012.

Thousands? Unlikely... the comics suggest they might've. at one point, had about a dozen working ones left when they used them to bury New Macross City, but the RPG suggests surviving Zentradi ships were broken up for parts to build new UEEF and UEDF ships.

Can you provide the source citation for the claim that they only had a dozen working ones, as well as the citation that all the remaining surviving Zentradi ships were broken up for parts?


Seto Kaiba wrote:(The basic idea is sound, and has OSM precedent via Macross, but will never be done because of the fundamental legal issues surrounding the usage of the Macross IP.)

Its only an issue if they want to emulate the Macross franchise completely. Since the indications are that the use of the Zentradi ships by the RDF/REF was always an option I would doubt that its prohibited (I am not an IP lawyer though, nor am I aware of any actual IP lawyers able to make a competent claim on this.....in the absence of such professional expert testimony it boils down to a contention of personal opinions......which is impossible to resolve and well beyond the scope of this forum.
But I will say that simply because something is like Macross does not mean that Robotech can not do it.
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Re: New Sourcebook Suggestions.

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

seto, where does it say the program started in 2022?

in fact, where are you getting this timeline info, since very little of seems to match up with the official HG one.

by the official HG timeline the SDF-3 was launched in 2022, marking the 'official' start of the project, but that indicates there was a lot of 'unofficial' stuff going on as part of it.. which would logically be the building of colony ships, settling small colonies/outposts on prospective planets using regular ships to break ground and determine viability, etc.

and we see the angel class being mothballed right as the UEEF gears up to take the fight to the regent and Edwards.. which given that you have named ASC members like Louie Nichols involved only 1 year after edwards escaped,has to be after 2031!

and an issue latter, the SDF-3 arrives at SSL (so still 2031-2032ish) and we get introduced to the "old angel class colony ships".
the fact they are called "old" indicates these were not new ships that were never launched, but rather ships in service being retired.

so even if they didn't start to build the angel class until 2023, which makes no sense, they still have nearly a decade of service time!

as for zentreadi ships.. there were 5 million involved at the end of the war. FIVE MILLION. even if 99% were destroyed, that still leaves 50,000 ships.. FIFTY THOUSAND.
even if only .1% survived, which is absurd.. you'd still have 5000. FIVE THOUSAND.
and this is ignoring the destroyed ones that could be patched back to service for a one way trip.
the sheer scale of the grand fleet means that you have a huge number of still viable ships after the war.
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Re: New Sourcebook Suggestions.

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

eliakon wrote:The argument is that if they didn't build these until it was to late, then they were too late.
That's not a valid logical argument, since it is only true if the conclusion is allowed to be the premise

I dunno what to tell you here... from all official evidence, the ships were not completed at the time the initial Pioneer mission found Tirol and discovered it had already been invaded by the Invid Regent, kicking off two decades of warfare in deep space.


eliakon wrote:They were 'recalled'. Not just simply canceled, not 'never launched' recalled. You have to be deployed to get a recall order. So yes there is a canon description of tem being launched.

I take it you don't have the Shadow Chronicles artbook?

The official material does not describe the ships as having been recalled... that comes from a VERY liberal interpretation of a rather awkwardly phrased sentence about the program being aborted. I included it earlier because we didn't have clarification from HG on the "original Pioneer expedition" remark yet. The literal reading of the text, as noted before, indicates that construction was halted (the ships hadn't been finished yet) when it was decided that the hostilities in space made it too dangerous to use them and made a more defensible alternative necessary.


eliakon wrote:Again your breaking logic. Here you are saying that lack of proof of something is proof of the lack.

Not quite... I'm saying proof of absence is proof of absence. A=A is a pretty straightforward proof, yes?

Simply put, we have the following premises from canon sources:
  • The UEEF's first-generation colony ships were still under construction at the time it was decided that hostilities in space made it too dangerous to launch them. These hostilities lasted for 20+ years. (Prelude, AotSC)
  • The Angel-class spaceframes were mothballed and later converted into delivery systems for neutron star matter warheads. (Prelude, AotSC)
  • The UEEF lost access to the civilian population of prospective colonists in 2029, when the Robotech Masters invaded and cut the Earth off from outside help, inadvertently making way for the Invid invasion.
  • The UEEF's second-generation colony ships, built to replace the Angel-class, were still under construction in 2044, when all but one of the incomplete ships was destroyed along with the shipyard in a neutron-s warhead detonation. (Prelude, RTSC)
  • The sole surviving Ark Angel-class ship has been repurposed as a warship for the war with the Haydonites. (RTSC)
  • Only two (human) civilians left Earth for deep space with the Pioneer mission... both were stowaways, one is now dead and the other incapacitated. (Sentinels, Prelude)

On top of that, you have the following points of circumstantial evidence:
  • There is no mention of extrasolar colonies in any canon Robotech title, though colonies are known to exist inside the Sol system on the moon and Mars.
  • Leaked planning materials for forthcoming installments of the Shadow Chronicles story make no mention of, or reference to, colonies or colonists.
  • The 2nd Edition RPG makes no mention non-military presences offworld... the examples of places to be born or grow up that are not Earth are all military bases like Moon Base ALuCE, Mars Base, or the UEEF compound on Tirol.
  • The 2nd Edition RPG also asserts that there is pretty much no career path open to anyone born offworld other than the military.


Looking at it all from the perspective of Robotech's official animated continuity, if you don't have colonists and you don't have colony ships, you're not gonna have colonies. If you lack the means, you aren't gonna achieve the results.

If you have soldiers, and warships, stuck out on the edge of unfriendly territory for a long time, you're gonna have military bases... and that's exactly what DOES exist in canon. Military bases. Factory satellites. The UEEF compound in Tiresia.




eliakon wrote:Its only an issue if they want to emulate the Macross franchise completely.

Well, it's more an issue that they can't use the Macross designs except in merchandise... as confirmed by Carl Macek back at Robocon 10 in '95, and by Big West's lawyers back in 2001.

Harmony Gold seems to be quite reluctant to use the Macross IP in any way these days, now that relations have soured with Macross's owners, hence a second redesign of the holdover characters for RTSC and the excision of Macross footage in Sentinels re-releases, among other things. This is also why Prelude put as many Macross characters on the proverbial bus as possible... killing Exedore, Breetai, and Kyle, maiming Minmei and Lisa, and completely redesigning Rick.

They likely will veto anything they couldn't potentially do in new animation... and using Macross designs in new animation is right out.
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Re: New Sourcebook Suggestions.

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

glitterboy2098 wrote:seto, where does it say the program started in 2022?

Colonization was part of the Pioneer mission, as per AotSC, the Infopedia, the Invasion comic, etc. etc. etc.


glitterboy2098 wrote:by the official HG timeline the SDF-3 was launched in 2022, marking the 'official' start of the project, but that indicates there was a lot of 'unofficial' stuff going on as part of it.. which would logically be the building of colony ships, settling small colonies/outposts on prospective planets using regular ships to break ground and determine viability, etc.

It indicates no such thing, the only mentioned activity was that advance navigational surveys were conducted.

Thus far, nobody has been able to turn up a single, solitary statement that a colony exists... or that colonists exist, for that matter. If there WAS evidence, someone would've presented it by now. You naturally won't find what isn't there to be found.
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Re: New Sourcebook Suggestions.

Unread post by eliakon »

Seto Kaiba wrote:
eliakon wrote:The argument is that if they didn't build these until it was to late, then they were too late.
That's not a valid logical argument, since it is only true if the conclusion is allowed to be the premise

I dunno what to tell you here... from all official evidence, the ships were not completed at the time the initial Pioneer mission found Tirol and discovered it had already been invaded by the Invid Regent, kicking off two decades of warfare in deep space.

So what were the ships doing between 2022 (the launch of the SDF-3/Pioneer mission) and when they were being mothballed in the comic? (Which has to be some time between 2031-2044)


Seto Kaiba wrote:
eliakon wrote:They were 'recalled'. Not just simply canceled, not 'never launched' recalled. You have to be deployed to get a recall order. So yes there is a canon description of tem being launched.

I take it you don't have the Shadow Chronicles artbook?

The official material does not describe the ships as having been recalled... that comes from a VERY liberal interpretation of a rather awkwardly phrased sentence about the program being aborted. I included it earlier because we didn't have clarification from HG on the "original Pioneer expedition" remark yet. The literal reading of the text, as noted before, indicates that construction was halted (the ships hadn't been finished yet) when it was decided that the hostilities in space made it too dangerous to use them and made a more defensible alternative necessary.

The page of the comic that mentions them says "these older vessels are the Angel class colony ships that are being mothballed to make way for the new Ark-Angel class"
That doesn't say "we are stopping building these guys part way through" it says "we are mothballing a ship that was already in use"
The Art of the Shadow Chronicels book is even more explicit "When continued hostilities in space rendered these early colonization efforts too dangerous construction of these vessels was halted at Space Station Liberty and the Angel-class vessels ...."

You cant have 'early efforts' if nothing is being done....


Seto Kaiba wrote:
eliakon wrote:Again your breaking logic. Here you are saying that lack of proof of something is proof of the lack.

Not quite... I'm saying proof of absence is proof of absence. A=A is a pretty straightforward proof, yes?

Simply put, we have the following premises from canon sources:
  • The UEEF's first-generation colony ships were still under construction at the time it was decided that hostilities in space made it too dangerous to launch them. These hostilities lasted for 20+ years. (Prelude, AotSC)

not true, hostilities in space makes the efforts using them to dangerous, and new construction is halted.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
  • The Angel-class spaceframes were mothballed and later converted into delivery systems for neutron star matter warheads. (Prelude, AotSC)

  • Yes they were mothballed. That does not say they were not launched, and infact implies that they were once used. Especially since they did some 'early efforts' that used these ships before they were recalled as insufficiently tough.

    Seto Kaiba wrote:
  • The UEEF lost access to the civilian population of prospective colonists in 2029, when the Robotech Masters invaded and cut the Earth off from outside help, inadvertently making way for the Invid invasion.

  • Which still doesn't rule out the use of these ships to ferry colonists between 2022-2029

    Seto Kaiba wrote:
  • The UEEF's second-generation colony ships, built to replace the Angel-class, were still under construction in 2044, when all but one of the incomplete ships was destroyed along with the shipyard in a neutron-s warhead detonation. (Prelude, RTSC)

  • Again this does not do anything about colonies that may have already been set up. It just makes more colonies more difficult.

    Seto Kaiba wrote:
  • The sole surviving Ark Angel-class ship has been repurposed as a warship for the war with the Haydonites. (RTSC)

  • Again irrelevant if colonies had already be set up, then the lack of the Ark Angel would be irrelevant to those extant colonies

    Seto Kaiba wrote:
  • Only two (human) civilians left Earth for deep space with the Pioneer mission... both were stowaways, one is now dead and the other incapacitated. (Sentinels, Prelude)

  • Source for the 'only two human civilians leave earth'?

    Seto Kaiba wrote:On top of that, you have the following points of circumstantial evidence:
    • There is no mention of extrasolar colonies in any canon Robotech title, though colonies are known to exist inside the Sol system on the moon and Mars.

    Again this is claiming that lack of positive proof, proves the lack.
    Seto Kaiba wrote:
  • Leaked planning materials for forthcoming installments of the Shadow Chronicles story make no mention of, or reference to, colonies or colonists.

  • Again not proof. Since 1) the material is not all inclusive 2) the material has not been finalized, canonized, or released. Thus we can not definintively say that there is or is not colony material in it....because it has not been released in a finished format yet. So we don't know what it will say when/if a final draft ever comes out.

    Seto Kaiba wrote:
  • The 2nd Edition RPG makes no mention non-military presences offworld... the examples of places to be born or grow up that are not Earth are all military bases like Moon Base ALuCE, Mars Base, or the UEEF compound on Tirol.
  • The 2nd Edition RPG also asserts that there is pretty much no career path open to anyone born offworld other than the military.

  • Again this is circular logic. The argument that the RPG can not make a supplement to fill in a hole, because the hole exists is totally circular.

    Seto Kaiba wrote:Looking at it all from the perspective of Robotech's official animated continuity, if you don't have colonists and you don't have colony ships, you're not gonna have colonies. If you lack the means, you aren't gonna achieve the results.

    Except that as pointed out, the official animated continuity DOESNT officially lack colonists or colony ships. And infact it says that they DID do early colonization efforts of some sort.

    Seto Kaiba wrote:If you have soldiers, and warships, stuck out on the edge of unfriendly territory for a long time, you're gonna have military bases... and that's exactly what DOES exist in canon. Military bases. Factory satellites. The UEEF compound in Tiresia.

    The presence of B does not exclude the presence of A.



    eliakon wrote:Its only an issue if they want to emulate the Macross franchise completely.

    Well, it's more an issue that they can't use the Macross designs except in merchandise... as confirmed by Carl Macek back at Robocon 10 in '95, and by Big West's lawyers back in 2001.

    Harmony Gold seems to be quite reluctant to use the Macross IP in any way these days, now that relations have soured with Macross's owners, hence a second redesign of the holdover characters for RTSC and the excision of Macross footage in Sentinels re-releases, among other things. This is also why Prelude put as many Macross characters on the proverbial bus as possible... killing Exedore, Breetai, and Kyle, maiming Minmei and Lisa, and completely redesigning Rick.

    They likely will veto anything they couldn't potentially do in new animation... and using Macross designs in new animation is right out.[/quote]
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    Re: New Sourcebook Suggestions.

    Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

    eliakon wrote:So what were the ships doing between 2022 (the launch of the SDF-3/Pioneer mission) and when they were being mothballed in the comic? (Which has to be some time between 2031-2044)

    Sitting in port, because canonically there are no colonies or colonists.


    eliakon wrote:That doesn't say "we are stopping building these guys part way through" it says "we are mothballing a ship that was already in use"

    No it doesn't, it says "we are mothballing a ship", a ship that happens to be sitting in port.

    The whole "there must be colonies" argument depends on fallacious leaps of illogic like this.

    There is no supporting evidence for the existence of colonies in canon Robotech, and the RPG only mentions offworld military bases. There is NO material for a sourcebook on colonies, because no colonization has occurred outside the solar system, and the colonies inside the solar system are militarized. Assertions without evidence, which is the sum total of the "there are colonies" argument, prove NOTHING.



    eliakon wrote:Again this is circular logic. The argument that the RPG can not make a supplement to fill in a hole, because the hole exists is totally circular.

    No, it is not. Palladium's writers must work within the restrictions set by Harmony Gold. There are no colonies in Harmony Gold's canon Robotech, so they would almost certainly shoot down a proposal to have a supplement devoted to something that's not actually part of Robotech.
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    Re: New Sourcebook Suggestions.

    Unread post by eliakon »

    Seto Kaiba wrote:
    eliakon wrote:So what were the ships doing between 2022 (the launch of the SDF-3/Pioneer mission) and when they were being mothballed in the comic? (Which has to be some time between 2031-2044)

    Sitting in port, because canonically there are no colonies or colonists.

    Except that the canon explicitly says that there were colonization efforts.


    The Art of the Shadow Chronicels book is even more explicit "When continued hostilities in space rendered these early colonization efforts too dangerous construction of these vessels was halted at Space Station Liberty and the Angel-class vessels ...."

    Seto Kaiba wrote:
    eliakon wrote:That doesn't say "we are stopping building these guys part way through" it says "we are mothballing a ship that was already in use"

    No it doesn't, it says "we are mothballing a ship", a ship that happens to be sitting in port.

    Yes when you mothball a ship you have to take it to a port to do so.

    Seto Kaiba wrote:The whole "there must be colonies" argument depends on fallacious leaps of illogic like this.

    No it depends on statements like that found here

    The Art of the Shadow Chronicles book is even more explicit pg. 118 "When continued hostilities in space rendered these early colonization efforts too dangerous construction of these vessels was halted at Space Station Liberty and the Angel-class vessels ...."

    The contention that the ships never left dock EVER and went straight from construction to mothballs is the unsupported leap of logic here. And is a provably wrong one based on the canon statement above.

    Seto Kaiba wrote:There is no supporting evidence for the existence of colonies in canon Robotech, and the RPG only mentions offworld military bases. There is NO material for a sourcebook on colonies, because no colonization has occurred outside the solar system, and the colonies inside the solar system are militarized. Assertions without evidence, which is the sum total of the "there are colonies" argument, prove NOTHING.

    There are explicitly colonization efforts.
    These efforts lasted all the way up until the old Angel class is mothballed to make room for the Ark Angel class
    That Mothballing starts the same day that the Tokugawa is attacked.
    Thus, there can be colonies.


    Seto Kaiba wrote:
    eliakon wrote:Again this is circular logic. The argument that the RPG can not make a supplement to fill in a hole, because the hole exists is totally circular.

    No, it is not. Palladium's writers must work within the restrictions set by Harmony Gold. There are no colonies in Harmony Gold's canon Robotech, so they would almost certainly shoot down a proposal to have a supplement devoted to something that's not actually part of Robotech.

    Since the official HG material says that the Angel Class ship was used in early colonization efforts, and that they were just being put into mothballs quite literally at the same time the Tokugawa was attacked.....
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    Re: New Sourcebook Suggestions.

    Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

    eliakon wrote:Except that the canon explicitly says that there were colonization efforts.

    Building a ship is "effort"... that doesn't mean they launched them, and it doesn't mean they ever established a colony.

    Harmony Gold has never once stated that there are extrasolar colonies in any canon Robotech work. Your claim runs counter to that fact. Therefore, present proof to support it. Not wild, unfounded claims or guesses. PROOF. Find me an explicit statement that these ships were completed and launched. Find me a colony identified in the story. Find me a character who explicitly has some kind of connection to a colony. Hell, find me any mention that colonies actually exist outside the Sol system.


    Even the RPG doesn't support the contention that there are colonies... only offworld military installations with living quarters. It even refutes the idea that there are civilians in space, saying the military is the only career path open to those born in space.

    If we're brainstorming sourcebook material, it has to be something that Harmony Gold won't shoot down out of hand.


    eliakon wrote:Yes when you mothball a ship you have to take it to a port to do so.

    Unless it never left port to begin with. :wink:
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    Re: New Sourcebook Suggestions.

    Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

    and as i pointed out, the tokugawa was evidently attacked in the 2030's, maybe the 2040's.. earliest is 2032ish because Lioue nichols is in the UEEF, and it's after he served with the 15th.

    actually, some of the time cues in issues 4 and 5 suggest the defeat of the regent and edwards occured in the late 2030's early 2040's.. because the SDF-3 and the icarus goes right back to SSL from the victory at optera, and rick hunter immediately ends up in a debate over the use of the nuetron-S missiles, schedules the test.. and grant recruits Lioue for the Icarus and immediately heads out to the moon to prepare for the last battle of reflex point we see in shadow chronicles. lioue also says that his service with the 15th was "years ago".. which pushes the earliest date into the mid to late 2030's.
    we then get a page with the test of the nuetron-S missile in 2044 right before shadow chronicles starts.. given this is the very test that Hunter ordered only a few pages before, it seems highly unlikely that they waited several years before doing it..

    so it is looking like the whole war with the Regent occured in the late 2030's, and ended pretty close to 2044..


    and if, as you say, the ships were built in the period between 2016 and 2023.. they pretty much have to have been launched and used because they weren't retired until the late 2030's! we know the UEEF can build stuff fast, and it's pretty much impossible that these ships took 20 years to build.

    i mean, they built the SDF-3 in only a couple years. and that was a much more involved and complex design.
    they did a total rebuild in less than 1 year, practically redoing it from the keel up with an even more advanced design.
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    Re: New Sourcebook Suggestions.

    Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

    glitterboy2098 wrote:actually, some of the time cues in issues 4 and 5 suggest the defeat of the regent and edwards occured in the late 2030's early 2040's..

    EDIT: Actually, it's not Dr. Lang who said it... it was the lead-in caption in issue 1. That's what gives a duration for the conflict with the Regent.

    "Decades"... for a war that started in either December 2022 or January 2023.

    Officially, Prelude is 2043-2044... with a one-year timeskip in the middle while shadow technology is adopted.


    glitterboy2098 wrote:and if, as you say, the ships were built in the period between 2016 and 2023.. they pretty much have to have been launched and used because they weren't retired until the late 2030's! we know the UEEF can build stuff fast, and it's pretty much impossible that these ships took 20 years to build.

    All it means, in a logical analysis, is that the UEEF didn't decide to permanently retire the ships until they had a viable replacement.

    It does not prove they were ever launched, let alone actually used for their intended purpose. It doesn't even prove they completed them.
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    Re: New Sourcebook Suggestions.

    Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

    actually issue 1 only says the SDF-3 left in 2022.

    it doesn't say anything about the invid conflict starting then. in fact it only says that they came to an uneasy peace at tirol after decades of struggle.. and that the only remaining threat is the "mysterious invid"

    if the invid are mysterious, it means the UEEF hasn't known them for long.. and that is in the 2040's. and if the invid are the only remaining threat, it is obvious that the peace was not withthem.. so clearly the fighting the UEEF had over those decades was with the remains of the master's empire. not against the invid


    and that still doesn't remove the fact that the ships are described as 'old' (which means "not new'.. if they had just been completed they would be new), and that they've been around for almost 20 years.

    or that HG established in the art of shadow chronicles that they were used in colonization efforts (as in 'building colonies'... just building the ships would not be a colonization effort by any stretch of the term. colonization requires the actual movement of people from place to place.. literally the definition is: " to create a colony in or on (a place) : to take control of (an area) and send people to live there")
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    Re: New Sourcebook Suggestions.

    Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

    glitterboy2098 wrote:or that HG established in the art of shadow chronicles that they were used in colonization efforts (as in 'building colonies'...

    It, in fact, says nothing of the sort... claiming otherwise in blatant defiance of what's written is not a valid argument.

    You still have yet to present a single piece of evidence to support your claim that Harmony Gold is wrong about their own material, and there really ARE colonies. :roll:
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    Re: New Sourcebook Suggestions.

    Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

    actually, we've proven pretty darn well that HG does have colonies in their material.. via several lines of reasoning and tons of evidence direct from HG's canon material.

    on the otherhand you have managed to fail to prove that there are none.

    also, found this
    hostilities broke out AFTER the pioneer mission.. which means that the colonization efforts couldn't have been blocked by warfare.

    and the ark angel was already under construction only a few months before reflex point. since the ark angel is using some of the shadow tech in the shadow chronicles film (like the synchrocannon), that means the design had to be less than a year old. which also reinforces the fact of the Angel class having been in use.. because A) it wouldn't take 20 years to make them, and B) the UEEF isn't going to replace something they never deployed.

    it also shows that the UEEF's dedication to establishing colonies is real, since they're building new colony ships.. if it was something they never meant to actually do, as you claimed earlier, they'd not be bothering.

    so you have active service colony ships, engaged in colonization.. that means your going to have actual colonies.

    something prelude actually confirms..

    when Rheindhart makes his speech about needing to wipe out the invid on earth before the invid decide to take over earth's colony's
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    Re: New Sourcebook Suggestions.

    Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

    glitterboy2098 wrote:actually, we've proven pretty darn well that HG does have colonies in their material.. via several lines of reasoning and tons of evidence direct from HG's canon material.

    You've proven nothing, and presented nothing except quotes out of context and unsubstantiated guesses.

    Bring me actual evidence of a colony. A depiction. A character who explicitly mentions or names a colony outside the solar system. A character FROM a colony.


    glitterboy2098 wrote:lso, found this
    hostilities broke out AFTER the pioneer mission.. which means that the colonization efforts couldn't have been blocked by warfare.

    You missed that this was addressed earlier in the thread... the "original Pioneer mission" was the SDF-3's direct trip to Tirol, per HG.

    The plans to launch the (then-incomplete) Angel-class ships were scrubbed after the SDF-3 got to Tirol and opened hostilities with the occupying force... the Invid Regent's army. The "we blundered into the Regent's occupation" thing has been part of the lore for almost thirty years.



    glitterboy2098 wrote:and the ark angel was already under construction only a few months before reflex point. since the ark angel is using some of the shadow tech in the shadow chronicles film (like the synchrocannon), that means the design had to be less than a year old.

    No... once again, you're ignoring facts.

    The Ark Angel and her sister ships were STILL under construction a few months before Reflex Point, which proves nothing but that the ship's final design included shadow technology (which the whole UEEF fleet was retrofitted to adopt). The only ship that is described as having been built around shadow technology is the SDF-4.



    glitterboy2098 wrote:B) the UEEF isn't going to replace something they never deployed.

    Wrong.

    We are told, point blank, exactly why they're being replaced... because they're too vulnerable to attack to use.



    glitterboy2098 wrote:it also shows that the UEEF's dedication to establishing colonies is real, since they're building new colony ships.. if it was something they never meant to actually do, as you claimed earlier, they'd not be bothering.

    Once again, you are misrepresenting things.

    Yes, the UEEF has demonstrated that they intended to establish colonies... but what we're told is that the initial generation of ships built for the purpose were deemed unfit for use because they were too vulnerable to attack, and that the new ships designed to be more defensible were never completed because Vince Grant destroyed them along with the shipyard they were being built at.

    I didn't say the UEEF had no intention to one day have colonies... I said Harmony Gold never had any intention of having colonies in the setting, because the canon setting currently has no colonies and the Ark Angel was always earmarked to be a warship like the SDF-1, not a colony ship.


    glitterboy2098 wrote:url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/glitterboy2098/robotech/robotech%20colonies_zpssxqa2zgb.png]when Rheindhart makes his speech about needing to wipe out the invid on earth before the invid decide to take over earth's colony's[/url]

    Nope! You're taking remarks out of context again.

    General Reinhardt's statement confirms what we already know... Earth has colonies on the Moon and Mars, and that he thinks they're out to conquer the universe.

    It doesn't establish the presence of colonies anywhere other than the Moon and Mars.
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    Re: New Sourcebook Suggestions.

    Unread post by eliakon »

    On the original topic....I would be interested in seeing more on these 'space pirates' from the Southern Cross era.
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    Re: New Sourcebook Suggestions.

    Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

    eliakon wrote:On the original topic....I would be interested in seeing more on these 'space pirates' from the Southern Cross era.

    Since they're inconsequential to the greater plot, Harmony Gold could even give Palladium a little more latitude to do a write-up on them... it'd be nice to have some original content.

    I wonder if they'd go the Metroid route and have a species that seems to do nothing but space piracy (like a former Robotech Masters subject race) or just less ethical folks from the existing races?
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    Re: New Sourcebook Suggestions.

    Unread post by eliakon »

    Seto Kaiba wrote:
    eliakon wrote:On the original topic....I would be interested in seeing more on these 'space pirates' from the Southern Cross era.

    Since they're inconsequential to the greater plot, Harmony Gold could even give Palladium a little more latitude to do a write-up on them... it'd be nice to have some original content.

    I wonder if they'd go the Metroid route and have a species that seems to do nothing but space piracy (like a former Robotech Masters subject race) or just less ethical folks from the existing races?

    I suspect more likely would be things like Rouge Zentradi who didn't join up with Kyhron because they had some sort of space capability still. Possibly linked up with various renegades and deserters from earth forces.

    The big question of course is what they are raiding. Pirates sort of, by definition raid shipping....so there needs to be shipping for them to raid....
    A second big question is where they are based, and why the AotSC didn't wipe them out with their fleet.
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    Re: New Sourcebook Suggestions.

    Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

    that's the thing though.. the pirates may not have a role in HG's grand plot for robotech

    but in an RPG, the point of a supplement book, or even a main book, isn't to advance a specific metaplot, but rather to create and enrich a setting with places, people, items, and experiences for the Gamemaster's and players to build their own plots around.

    HG may never do a show about fighting zentreadi pirates preying on shipping between human colony worlds.. but a game master and their players might want to make a campaign out of doing that. and for all that it doesn't substantially impact the main storyline of the robotech show so far.. it certainly can feel just as deep, epic, and emotional to those playing in it.

    this is why we have the genesis pits book, honestly.. all those pits and IMU's matter little to the plot of the robotech TV show, but they give GM's and players locations to visit, mecha to pilot or fight, and story ideas for their own campaigns.


    in regards to the pirates...
    i definitely think renegade zentreadi are a likely part. with dissident humans too, certainly. odds are they prey on cargo's moving between human worlds.. the colony worlds are likely to have unique resources that are handy elsewhere (unique alien plants and animal products for example) which would create a thriving luxuries market. and since colony worlds are likely to be less industrialized, there would likely be shipments of valuable manufactured goods moving from earth (and the UEEF's factory sats) to the colony worlds.. and likely valuable goods moving from the colony worlds to earth (like for example, shipments of wood, which would be harder to get on the damaged earth.) and certainly military shipments of mecha, weapons, munitions, and SLMH for the colony's defense forces would be a desired, if tough, cargo to hit.

    most likely the pirates use patchwork/salvaged/stolen mecha of huamn and zentreadi origins.. and their ships show similar origins. smaller fold capable vessels like the Quel-Quallie Theatre Scout (which is shown to have it's own fold drive in both the show and the comics) would likely be a common platform (the scout ship can easily carry several mecha, and has some decent weapons of its own), but i would not be surprised if some pirate crews operate captured UEDF/ASC warships (of smaller sizes any way) or uparmed human cargoships.. and a larger zent warship, even if damaged, could easily end up as a deep space 'tortuga'..
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    Re: New Sourcebook Suggestions.

    Unread post by ShadowLogan »

    Seto wrote:There may be real space pirates somewhere out there, and the UEDF just used them as an excuse to cover up other losses related to potential alien invasion the way the Anti-Unification League became the convenient blame figure for the first offensive behind the Zentradi invasion.

    I'm still not sure that works. That would have been very early in the extra-solar exploration, and its possible the Masters did not destroy the fleet in question but merely came across them given we don't see the actual battle here, and dialogue doesn't credit the destruction of the fleet to them. Actually dialogue would seem to indicate that it isn't Terran, or Terran civilization was once much greater.

    Seto wrote:Additional clarification offered by Harmony Gold on the "original Pioneer expedition" comment in Prelude points to Angel-class construction having taken place between 2016 and 2022, and was suspended when the SDF-3 arrived a Tirol sometime in either December 2022 or January 2023. From the description, it sounds as though construction of the Angel-class was suspended at a point where the spaceframe, engines, and other core systems were in place but before the all-important habitat modules were either built or delivered.

    Are we sure that the UEEF arrived at Tirol in that period though. AotSC's timeline on pg8-9, has 2022 as the launch, but it also maintains that they still had to find the world (and pretty much duplicated in Prelude). RT.com's timeline is silent on the issue, and I looked at the Sentinels Timeline segment (it's hidden and pretty sparse: http://www.robotech.com/infopedia/timel ... series=SEN). And the Bioroid Interceptor background text in the 2E RPG has it developed post Tirol, which is also a post VFB-9 development. Prelude doesn't state when they arrived at Tirol either and suggests it was much later "After decades of struggle, this Pioneer Expedition....would reach an uneasy peace at the Robotech Masters' homeworld of Tirol, leaving only the threat of the mysterious Invid race." It actually sounds like it took decades or years to reach Tirol not months.

    That pretty much widens the period the Angel-class can be in service.

    Seto wrote:Thousands? Unlikely... the comics suggest they might've. at one point, had about a dozen working ones left when they used them to bury New Macross City, but the RPG suggests surviving Zentradi ships were broken up for parts to build new UEEF and UEDF ships.

    I think it is important to consider that their could be more relatively intact ships left over after the RoD. The main issue though is the available PC supply on those ships. The UEDF/UEEF may have come to the conclusion that energizing more than a handful in the near term was all they could support.

    Seto wrote:Since they're inconsequential to the greater plot, Harmony Gold could even give Palladium a little more latitude to do a write-up on them... it'd be nice to have some original content.

    Actually there is a lot of latitude they can give Palladium if the Space Pirates term is used as a catch all instead of a unified faction. That means Palladium can do their own band(s) of Pirates, or something akin to build rules for pirates (here though equipment needs to be considered to, since it can get boring if these pirates all use "surplus" RT mecha we know), and HG can just go that they are just X example out of many such bands and not revisit them if they don't want to.

    glitterboy2098 wrote:the invid are mysterious, it means the UEEF hasn't known them for long.. and that is in the 2040's. and if the invid are the only remaining threat, it is obvious that the peace was not withthem.. so clearly the fighting the UEEF had over those decades was with the remains of the master's empire. not against the invid

    Not necessarily. All it really shows is how much about the Invid the UEEF has been able to learn. In the Invasion comic #4 (2038-9):
    -pg1 "After the Invid race overran the Earth nearly eight years ago. ve have managed to gather precious leetle intelligence about our new alien adversaries."
    -pg1 "The first Invid specimens that ve captured years ago vere little more than protoplasmic energy creatures in an embryonic state. But more recent statge-two Invid that ve have captured have been evolving toward a humanoid form."

    So in 8 years in canon the UEEF has learned very little about the Invid. It also appears that 2030-1 is the period that the Invid really came on to the scene for the UEEF, not 2022/23. So in 8 years they have evolved rapidly, even if we use 2022/2023 as the initial contact period, that is still very rapid evoloution.

    eliakon wrote:I suspect more likely would be things like Rouge Zentradi who didn't join up with Kyhron because they had some sort of space capability still. Possibly linked up with various renegades and deserters from earth forces.

    There is no need for this approach. We know from the RFS capture mission, that not all the Zentreadi are at Earth for the RoD with the Grand Fleet vs Imperial Fleet (4.8million + 1million), so there could be more out there and no need to link them to anyone on Earth in this way. There is no reason to connect the "space pirates" to Earth either, not saying they can't have spawned some groups.

    eliakon wrote:The big question of course is what they are raiding. Pirates sort of, by definition raid shipping....so there needs to be shipping for them to raid....
    A second big question is where they are based, and why the AotSC didn't wipe them out with their fleet.

    1st Pirates don't have to raid shipping exclusively, that is what people think of when it comes to Pirates, but that is not the extent to which they target (they also target shore). They could be targeting food, parts, fuel, etc. Maybe even slaves (though I would think if this is the case "Slavers" would be a more apt term).
    2nd, It would be harder for the UEEF to wipe them out if we are talking about multiple groups (and new groups forming), and groups that operate in/from foreign sovereign territory that the UEEF can not enter w/o provoking a potential war with. Or even groups with a lot of muscle so to speak, to much given more pressing matters (like the Invid).
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    Re: New Sourcebook Suggestions.

    Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

    you don't even need them hiding in foreign territory.. space is huge, and trying to patrol all of it is going to be pretty darn tough. generally the main focus is likely to be on the main worlds of the colony's.. (the colony worlds themselves, and any in system outposts, industry, etc they have), with coverage of the wider system a bit less complete and coverage of uninhabited systems being more hole than net..

    it would be easy enough for a group of pirates in a salvaged fold ship to just vanish into a less well scrutinized place.

    to quote Mal Reynolds from firefly..

    "Tell you, Zoe, we get a mechanic, get her up and runnin' again, hire a good pilot, maybe a cook. Live like real people. Small crew, them as feel the need to be free, take jobs as they come. Ain't never have to be under the heel of nobody ever again. No matter how long the arm of the Alliance might get, we'll just get ourselves a little further."


    (and the be honest.. i suspect a lot of what the 'space pirates' do is similar to what the crew of firefly does.. smuggling. illegal salvage. theft, petty or otherwise. misdirection of official goods, etc.)
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    Re: New Sourcebook Suggestions.

    Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

    glitterboy2098 wrote:but in an RPG, the point of a supplement book, or even a main book, isn't to advance a specific metaplot, but rather to create and enrich a setting with places, people, items, and experiences for the Gamemaster's and players to build their own plots around.

    [...]

    this is why we have the genesis pits book, honestly.. all those pits and IMU's matter little to the plot of the robotech TV show, but they give GM's and players locations to visit, mecha to pilot or fight, and story ideas for their own campaigns.

    This is mostly true... but it's also worth noting that the point of a licensed RPG like the Robotech RPG is to enable GMs and the players to create their own stories within a close approximation of the show's official setting. That's why Harmony Gold made a big to-do out of keeping 2nd Edition on a short leash, after disowning 1st Edition for deviating so much and so often.

    Material like the IMUs or the Genesis Pits book get approved by Harmony Gold because, despite seeming a little "out there" and not focusing on the story of the series, those concepts DO have official precedent through subplots in the Robotech series or OSM sources. (Yes, even IMUs.)



    ShadowLogan wrote:Are we sure that the UEEF arrived at Tirol in that period though. AotSC's timeline on pg8-9, has 2022 as the launch, but it also maintains that they still had to find the world (and pretty much duplicated in Prelude).

    Which is, I'm sure you'll agree, a very odd thing to maintain given that every version of the Sentinels except the novels had it that the SDF-3 arrived at Tirol almost right away and simply got stranded there. The Genesis Pits book follows that tack instead, in stating that the UEEF had already reached Tirol and fought the Regent's forces there and on several other worlds before the Regess ever occupied Earth.


    ShadowLogan wrote:And the Bioroid Interceptor background text in the 2E RPG has it developed post Tirol, which is also a post VFB-9 development. Prelude doesn't state when they arrived at Tirol either and suggests it was much later "After decades of struggle, this Pioneer Expedition....would reach an uneasy peace at the Robotech Masters' homeworld of Tirol, leaving only the threat of the mysterious Invid race." It actually sounds like it took decades or years to reach Tirol not months.

    As noted many times before, the RPG is not the most reliable or consistent source of information at the best of times... which is one of many reasons it's not canon. The canon writeup for the Bioroid Interceptor is pathetically short, and gives no hint to the timing of its development. It would obviously have to have been developed on Tirol, but there's a conflict of timing between books where the liberation of Tirol is involved... the core book asserts the Zentradi were using Betas in the liberation of Tirol, which is impossible, if Tirol and multiple other worlds were liberated before the Invid invasion of Earth.



    ShadowLogan wrote:Not necessarily. All it really shows is how much about the Invid the UEEF has been able to learn. In the Invasion comic #4 (2038-9):
    -pg1 "After the Invid race overran the Earth nearly eight years ago. ve have managed to gather precious leetle intelligence about our new alien adversaries."

    Which is a very odd thing to say unless there's something drastically different about the Regess's forces... because in the materials Prelude is based on, and even in the RPG, it's asserted that they had been fighting the Regent's forces on multiple fronts for YEARS before the Earth was ever occupied. The only way I can think this would work would be if they'd ONLY fought inorganics until the 2030s.
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    Re: New Sourcebook Suggestions.

    Unread post by ShadowLogan »

    glitterboy2098 wrote:you don't even need them hiding in foreign territory.. space is huge, and trying to patrol all of it is going to be pretty darn tough.

    There is that. But if we are talking about Pirates staging from bases or other ports of call and we are looking to have them attacked. That likely means two factors will play heavily, inhabited systems and being "centrally located" in said system (until you get to the Ort Cloud, most bodies in the Solar System orbit w/n a narrow swath). Economics in terms of using the goods and propulsion would favor both. That still leaves a large swath of territory to cover, but not nearly as much as you suggest unless the pirates are more nomadic so the economics of trade/propulsion aren't factors.

    Something that might dilute the argument is if there is something in the "Galactic Code" Exedore mentions that is the equivalent of Territorial Waters and International Waters that would allow it.

    Seto wrote:Which is, I'm sure you'll agree, a very odd thing to maintain given that every version of the Sentinels except the novels had it that the SDF-3 arrived at Tirol almost right away and simply got stranded there.

    However Sentinels is in that quasi-state where it happened, just maybe not what one would expect technically. The fact they still have to search for Tirol, suggests they don't know where they are going. Even the Zentreadi did not know the location to give to Gloval (Ep36) as he told Lisa they had to find the home world of the Masters. Everything seems to point to them still needing to search for Tirol, there is no reason after all that the UEEF could not have engaged the Invid/Regent elsewhere for 1st Contact unless we are trying to stick to hard to the original Sentinels time-line.

    Really the Sen timeline is being drawn out much more than it was intended for in past works (Novels ((& 1E RPG)) original time-line had it all finish up around 2030, and NG events was finished in early 2030s, vs current view NG went into the mid 2040s). Supposedly they are making changes to it, not just in duration but specifics, so short of a specific date for Tirol's discovery it is still open when they found it.

    Seto wrote:Which is a very odd thing to say unless there's something drastically different about the Regess's forces... because in the materials Prelude is based on, and even in the RPG, it's asserted that they had been fighting the Regent's forces on multiple fronts for YEARS before the Earth was ever occupied. The only way I can think this would work would be if they'd ONLY fought inorganics until the 2030s.


    I'm not sure that's the case though about the Regent. Inorganics are essentially drones, so where did the specimens mentioned come from if they are only dealing with Inorganics. Even the Invid Brains don't really meet that description IMHO. And as Sentinels OVA (how much applies here is debatable) and even Prelude (could be argued only applies to the 2040s if we ignore other versions of Sentinels) illustrate, the Regent did use piloted mecha among his forces. So it doesn't work that the UEEF only dealt with Inorganics.

    I would also add that it is impossible for the UEEF to have fought the Regent's Invid for years before Eath was occupied by the Regis given Leonard is completely oblivious to the Invid. At least at face value for just the 85ep and not later works or other behind the scenes thinking/rationalization.
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    Re: New Sourcebook Suggestions.

    Unread post by thorr-kan »

    eliakon wrote:On the original topic....I would be interested in seeing more on these 'space pirates' from the Southern Cross era.

    Robotech: The Sentinels
    Robotech: The Sentinels: Independent Threats.
    Robotech: The Sentinels: Zentraedi Remnants.
    Robotech: The Sentinels: The Masters' Imperium.

    Robotech: Outer Limits: Solar Colonies and Bases of the UEG.

    Robotech: Ships of the Line: The long awaited spaceship book.
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    Re: New Sourcebook Suggestions.

    Unread post by SRoss »

    Maybe a source book that could cover the Reconstruction era and the Southern Cross...

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    Re: New Sourcebook Suggestions.

    Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

    ShadowLogan wrote:I would also add that it is impossible for the UEEF to have fought the Regent's Invid for years before Eath was occupied by the Regis given Leonard is completely oblivious to the Invid. At least at face value for just the 85ep and not later works or other behind the scenes thinking/rationalization.

    That's Robotech for ya... every attempt to fix one contradiction creates two more.

    The best anyone could offer for an explanation to that is that the UEEF may not have bothered telling Leonard things that were not considered relevant to his specific area of responsibility (the defense of Earth and nothing else).

    It's a bloody mess... colony ships that were built when there are no colonists to use them, claims that the liberation of Tirol occurred years before 2031 and yet after the Beta's widespread adoption in circa 2040, decades of struggle in deep space to liberate the many Invid-occupied planets yet the UEEF acts as though they're a recent discovery.



    thorr-kan wrote:Robotech: The Sentinels
    Robotech: The Sentinels: Independent Threats.
    Robotech: The Sentinels: Zentraedi Remnants.
    Robotech: The Sentinels: The Masters' Imperium.

    Unlikely. Per Harmony Gold's statements on Sentinels, they're done with Sentinels and are not going to develop any new Sentinels material.

    HOWEVER... based on the material that's been teased for the Marines sourcebook(s), it looks like those will be integrating some of the concepts that used to belong to the abandoned Sentinels story arc. I wouldn't count on anything Zentradi-centric, as they seem to be quite determined to avoid any uses of Macross-related topics except for those strictly built on their presentation in the animation.


    thorr-kan wrote:Robotech: Outer Limits: Solar Colonies and Bases of the UEG.

    Robotech: Ships of the Line: The long awaited spaceship book.

    We're unlikely to see either of these too.

    At the present time, no extrasolar colonies or colonists have been depicted in official Robotech sources (and it's debatable if they're even a thing), so it's unlikely Harmony Gold would let them do a book that could narratively paint them into a corner. IIRC, the ships book has been dead and canceled for a long time now.
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