Lancer, Trans-gendered or gay?

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Lancer, Trans-gendered or gay?

Unread post by The Artist Formerly »

So I was looking at Lynn Kyle's victory on my poll thread. I'd put him on there because in an ocean of unlikeable characters, he's the worst. But there was never any sign that he was gay, just incestuous. I added him to the poll to be an ass.

Then I got to thinking about Lancer. In his story, he dressed up like a woman to sneak out trouble, then found he was so good at it, he kept up the façade. So he could spy on stuff or something... The first bit seemed a little thin, and the second part seems like out and out BS. If he had wanted a persona to travel around with and gather intel on Invid operations, an attractive woman lip syncing would have been a much more effective plan. She could perform on stage and he could break into offices and the like, using those hard to come by military specialist skills of his.

So why? I figure he's either trans-gendered, pre-op of course, or he's gay and can't admit it to himself. Both of these are sad situations, and I'd ask for honest discussion rather then making fun of people who are different.
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Re: Lancer, Trans-gendered or gay?

Unread post by Nightmask »

Lancer is hardly the first person in fiction or reality who cross-dressed to spy on others or otherwise conceal their true identity (and most crossdressers are heterosexual NOT homosexual let alone transgender), heck Jimmy Olsen did it all the time way back in his pre-Crisis days in his own title where he could be the intrepid reporter and man of action out of Superman's shadow. It just happened to be what he first tried (at if I remember correctly his GF's encouragement) and seeing how successful it was simply rolled with it rather than waste time experimenting with other roles.

So no I don't see why anyone would think he was homosexual simply because his assumed fake identity was female, and since he was definitely shown having interest in females (as when he almost hooked back up with his ex) he's at a minimum heterosexual and at most bisexual not homosexual or transgender.
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Re: Lancer, Trans-gendered or gay?

Unread post by Kagashi »

I never thought Lancer was gay or a trans-gender. But he sure ain't afraid to be different. After all, he fell in love with an alien. But yeah, its a weak story as to why he dressed up. The writers had to have some shock value and some sort of twist and they came up with some weak excuse as to why Lancer was dressed as a woman.

It makes sense the *first time* Lancer was attempting to dodge the Invid and their sympathizers when he was with Carla, but to put himself in a situation where he becomes a public figure and goes on tour is really odd. I mean, if you are trying to avoid being found...why sell tickets for people to come see you? Its as bad as hiding Luke...at Vaders old house...under the name "Skywalker"...
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Re: Lancer, Trans-gendered or gay?

Unread post by Kagashi »

Nightmask wrote:Lancer is hardly the first person in fiction or reality who cross-dressed to spy on others or otherwise conceal their true identity (and most crossdressers are heterosexual NOT homosexual let alone transgender), heck Jimmy Olsen did it all the time way back in his pre-Crisis days in his own title where he could be the intrepid reporter and man of action out of Superman's shadow. It just happened to be what he first tried (at if I remember correctly his GF's encouragement) and seeing how successful it was simply rolled with it rather than waste time experimenting with other roles.

So no I don't see why anyone would think he was homosexual simply because his assumed fake identity was female, and since he was definitely shown having interest in females (as when he almost hooked back up with his ex) he's at a minimum heterosexual and at most bisexual not homosexual or transgender.


Thats true, out of all the Next Gen characters, Lancer go the most play out of anybody. Carla, that chick living with the dude who owned the drones, and Sera.

If there is anybody we should be questioning, it's Lunk. That scene in LLA confirmed for me he was hooking up with Annie, the 14 year old.
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Re: Lancer, Trans-gendered or gay?

Unread post by Nightmask »

Kagashi wrote:I never thought Lancer was gay or a trans-gender. But he sure ain't afraid to be different. After all, he fell in love with an alien. But yeah, its a weak story as to why he dressed up. The writers had to have some shock value and some sort of twist and they came up with some weak excuse as to why Lancer was dressed as a woman.

It makes sense the *first time* Lancer was attempting to dodge the Invid and their sympathizers when he was with Carla, but to put himself in a situation where he becomes a public figure and goes on tour is really odd. I mean, if you are trying to avoid being found...why sell tickets for people to come see you? Its as bad as hiding Luke...at Vaders old house...under the name "Skywalker"...


Fairly standard 'hiding in plain sight' thinking really, since being public as he was no one would think a guy would masquerade as a woman particularly so publicly and because he traveled and generated a popular alter ego it gave him access to places as a woman he'd have never managed as a guy (since as we see in the series community leaders were generally if not always male and clearly heterosexual). So he went with it since it worked once and kept working he saw no need to try something else. I'm sure other spies had more traditional gender roles for their schemes but for Lancer he went with something different and it worked out well for him.
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Re: Lancer, Trans-gendered or gay?

Unread post by Jefffar »

This thread is walking a fine line at best, I'd advise you all to be very wary about what you say.

Lancer/Yellow Dancer is an interpretation of the Onnagata or Oyama of Japanese Kabuki. While there was an eroticism to the role (and Yellow's sultry persona certainly fulfills that) it is not specifically indicative of the sexual orientation of the performer.

As mentioned, Lancer demonstrably had an attraction to women and had liaisons with them. When he was not dressed as Yellow Dancer, he didn't so much as bat an eye at a male character as best as I can recall. In the McKinny novels, there is a definite break between the Yellow Dancer personna and Lancer's own personality.

I think trying to nail down Lancer as a specific sexual orientation just because his career involved portraying himself as a woman is probably overreaching the available evidence. Then again, I am sure there's plenty of fanfiction out there that has done precisely that and taken some liberties with Scott/Rand/Lunk/Corg etc.
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Re: Lancer, Trans-gendered or gay?

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

actually, there are a few times he uses his 'yellow dancer' voice and mannerism's to tease Lunk and Rand with flirtatious toned comments.. though the intent there seems mostly to make rand/lunk uncomfortable, rather than showing interest in guys.

whatever he is though, he's definitely secure enough in his sexuality to pull off his alternate persona well.
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Re: Lancer, Trans-gendered or gay?

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Trans or gay? Why can't he just be a cross dresser like Eddie Izzard?
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Re: Lancer, Trans-gendered or gay?

Unread post by SRoss »

I seem to recall in the McKinny novels it's mentioned that Lancer studied Kabuki at some point in his life. So playing a girl would not have been all that difficult for him.
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Re: Lancer, Trans-gendered or gay?

Unread post by The Artist Formerly »

Zer0 Kay wrote:Trans or gay? Why can't he just be a cross dresser like Eddie Izzard?

Wouldn't cross dressing just be a position along the access way of transgender?
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Re: Lancer, Trans-gendered or gay?

Unread post by The Artist Formerly »

Jefffar wrote:This thread is walking a fine line at best, I'd advise you all to be very wary about what you say.

Lancer/Yellow Dancer is an interpretation of the Onnagata or Oyama of Japanese Kabuki. While there was an eroticism to the role (and Yellow's sultry persona certainly fulfills that) it is not specifically indicative of the sexual orientation of the performer.

As mentioned, Lancer demonstrably had an attraction to women and had liaisons with them. When he was not dressed as Yellow Dancer, he didn't so much as bat an eye at a male character as best as I can recall. In the McKinny novels, there is a definite break between the Yellow Dancer personna and Lancer's own personality.

I think trying to nail down Lancer as a specific sexual orientation just because his career involved portraying himself as a woman is probably overreaching the available evidence. Then again, I am sure there's plenty of fanfiction out there that has done precisely that and taken some liberties with Scott/Rand/Lunk/Corg etc.


It possible to be transgendered and still interested in women. Though I'd forgotten about Japanese cultural roles of men in theater, which is likely the answer from the outset.

When I think about it, the yellow dancer persona as a tool in the spy's tool box doesn't really work. When Scott and company used Yellow, they were the one's sneaking while Yellow's concert was in swing. That's a great trick. I'll bet just about every gamer on these boards have used the same idea. But he has a very specific skill set, and "Yellow Dancer" just needs to be cute and able to lip sync some 80s power ballads. Sneaking in, by passing guards, knowing what's important to grab and what's noise, that's waaaaaay more important then being able sing and put on a stage show.
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Re: Lancer, Trans-gendered or gay?

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

Lancer's role in the resistance was probably less spying, and more carrying messages between groups. an entertainer has an excuse to travel, and people are less likely to believe that a female singer is also working for the pseudo-military resistance. plus if lancer joins in on an op, and is seen, people are less likely to put two and two together. especially since we see that several of his resistance contacts seem to be entertainment organizers of some sort, who would be able to help cover for 'yellow's' absence in such cases..
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Re: Lancer, Trans-gendered or gay?

Unread post by Nightmask »

The Artist Formerly wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:Trans or gay? Why can't he just be a cross dresser like Eddie Izzard?


Wouldn't cross dressing just be a position along the access way of transgender?


No, since most cross-dressers are heterosexual and not homosexual let alone confused and think that they're really female but 'born wrong'. Just because a transgender person thinks they're really the wrong sex and chooses to dress as the 'right' sex does not mean everyone who cross-dresses is transgender, it doesn't work in both directions.
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Re: Lancer, Trans-gendered or gay?

Unread post by The Artist Formerly »

Nightmask wrote:
The Artist Formerly wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:Trans or gay? Why can't he just be a cross dresser like Eddie Izzard?


Wouldn't cross dressing just be a position along the access way of transgender?


No, since most cross-dressers are heterosexual and not homosexual let alone confused and think that they're really female but 'born wrong'. Just because a transgender person thinks they're really the wrong sex and chooses to dress as the 'right' sex does not mean everyone who cross-dresses is transgender, it doesn't work in both directions.

Transgender doesn't forgo being, in this case, a lesbian or bi-sexual.

Second, I'd point out that sexual identity/gender identity aren't binary choices. Perhaps it's possible he wasn't sure himself?
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Re: Lancer, Trans-gendered or gay?

Unread post by Nightmask »

The Artist Formerly wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
The Artist Formerly wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:Trans or gay? Why can't he just be a cross dresser like Eddie Izzard?


Wouldn't cross dressing just be a position along the access way of transgender?


No, since most cross-dressers are heterosexual and not homosexual let alone confused and think that they're really female but 'born wrong'. Just because a transgender person thinks they're really the wrong sex and chooses to dress as the 'right' sex does not mean everyone who cross-dresses is transgender, it doesn't work in both directions.

Transgender doesn't forgo being, in this case, a lesbian or bi-sexual.

Second, I'd point out that sexual identity/gender identity aren't binary choices. Perhaps it's possible he wasn't sure himself?


There's no reason to think that. We clearly know from his backstory he only dressed as a female in the first place as a disguise his now ex talked him into wearing, saw how successful it was in concealing his identity then decided to continue doing so and use that fake identity to secretly work against the Invid and their human sympathizers. Nothing of what we have on him should lead anyone to think he's anything but a heterosexual male who crossdresses as part of his efforts against the Invid and simply doesn't have concerns about anyone thinking him less a man for doing so. Just as no one outside the superdickery website would try and argue Jimmy Olsen is confused or trans because crossdressing was a not uncommon means of him infiltrating gangs and concealing himself in his intrepid reporter days Pre-Crisis. Both are clearly heterosexual males who just aren't worried about what people might think about them for doing so.
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Re: Lancer, Trans-gendered or gay?

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Cross dressing to hide in plain sight.
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Re: Lancer, Trans-gendered or gay?

Unread post by taalismn »

Lancer's just got an incredibly flexible mind*, and he's serious about both his work (as a soldier) and his art...in fact, if it wasn't for his art requiring so much immersion in character and empathy(with both women and his/her audience), as a soldier he'd be psychotically scary. If he wasn't playing Yellow Dancer on the side as part of the story, I'd suspect him of being a genetically engineered Tirolian assassin-caste.

*(And post-Rain of Death Earth would promote flexibility, the better to meet the needs of a suddenly diminished world in a provenly hostile galaxy)
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Re: Lancer, Trans-gendered or gay?

Unread post by Warmaster40k »

All I know is that the voice actor Cam Grant is fabulous, and would happily wear that dress. He also voices Kratos.
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Re: Lancer, Trans-gendered or gay?

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

The Artist Formerly wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:Trans or gay? Why can't he just be a cross dresser like Eddie Izzard?

Wouldn't cross dressing just be a position along the access way of transgender?


Nope

many straight non gender confused men practice cross dressing as a means of stress displacement. Imagining through partial roleplay as if while they are dressed as a woman they are responsible for less as set by the traditional roles of women. It may be possible therefore to say that these men who do practice this are sexists, because of their lesser view of women.
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Re: Lancer, Trans-gendered or gay?

Unread post by Arnie100 »

In Robotech: Love, Live, Alive, it's revealed at the end that Sera is pregnant with Lancer's baby.
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Re: Lancer, Trans-gendered or gay?

Unread post by taalismn »

...and one amusing pre-Shadow Chronicles fanfiction I read, Lancer and Sera's public wedding has the bride and groom ...well, Lancer wore the dress, Sera wore the tuxedo...(Scott provided the distraction to get the paparazzi off their tails).
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Re: Lancer, Trans-gendered or gay?

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Arnie100 wrote:In Robotech: Love, Live, Alive, it's revealed at the end that Sera is pregnant with Lancer's baby.

Wow so he is a male and can impregnate a female, doesn't prove sexual orientation. Just biological function.
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Re: Lancer, Trans-gendered or gay?

Unread post by taalismn »

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Arnie100 wrote:In Robotech: Love, Live, Alive, it's revealed at the end that Sera is pregnant with Lancer's baby.

Wow so he is a male and can impregnate a female, doesn't prove sexual orientation. Just biological function.


Actually, she got pregnant after they shared a cup of coffee. Exchange of bodily fluids was all it took. :P
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Re: Lancer, Trans-gendered or gay?

Unread post by Chronicler »

You know, just because he had that whole Yellow Dancer persona doesn't mean he wants to be a woman. It's just that the cards of fate was dealt to him and he survived by using that persona no thanks to his ex. It was the ex's idea in the first place to dress as a woman to hide from the Invid. This played out real well too. If I was Lancer I've would have taken that and used it to the advantage he got from it with his network.
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Re: Lancer, Trans-gendered or gay?

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

taalismn wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
Arnie100 wrote:In Robotech: Love, Live, Alive, it's revealed at the end that Sera is pregnant with Lancer's baby.

Wow so he is a male and can impregnate a female, doesn't prove sexual orientation. Just biological function.


Actually, she got pregnant after they shared a cup of coffee. Exchange of bodily fluids was all it took. :P


He didn't just sneeze in her face.
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Re: Lancer, Trans-gendered or gay?

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Chronicler wrote:You know, just because he had that whole Yellow Dancer persona doesn't mean he wants to be a woman. It's just that the cards of fate was dealt to him and he survived by using that persona no thanks to his ex. It was the ex's idea in the first place to dress as a woman to hide from the Invid. This played out real well too. If I was Lancer I've would have taken that and used it to the advantage he got from it with his network.

Yup, already been said pretty much
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Re: Lancer, Trans-gendered or gay?

Unread post by Nightmask »

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Arnie100 wrote:In Robotech: Love, Live, Alive, it's revealed at the end that Sera is pregnant with Lancer's baby.


Wow so he is a male and can impregnate a female, doesn't prove sexual orientation. Just biological function.


Considering they had to have had sex, something generally indicative of sexual orientation, it does prove quite a bit when added to everything else, namely nothing in support of him being anything but heterosexual (because again cross-dressing generally indicates heterosexual orientation) and everything we do have being in support of it.
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Re: Lancer, Trans-gendered or gay?

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Nightmask wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
Arnie100 wrote:In Robotech: Love, Live, Alive, it's revealed at the end that Sera is pregnant with Lancer's baby.


Wow so he is a male and can impregnate a female, doesn't prove sexual orientation. Just biological function.


Considering they had to have had sex, something generally indicative of sexual orientation, it does prove quite a bit when added to everything else, namely nothing in support of him being anything but heterosexual (because again cross-dressing generally indicates heterosexual orientation) and everything we do have being in support of it.

Still prices nothing. It adds support to a speculation. Many gay men have impregnated women. Until something specifically says it any assumption one way or the other is only going to be speculation.

SO THERE IS NO POINT TO THIS THREAD.

here's one, is Rick, Max, Rand or Scott gay? PROVE IT.
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Re: Lancer, Trans-gendered or gay?

Unread post by taalismn »

Well, I've known Max to be merry, whether he was gay as well(shrug).
Rick? Sue Graham tried just about EVERYTHING to get his attention, to the point where she wondered if Lisa had had him gelded...
And the question regarding Scott is not whether or not he's gay or straight...but, does he own any clothing that ISN'T a uniform?
Last edited by taalismn on Sun Jan 11, 2015 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
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Re: Lancer, Trans-gendered or gay?

Unread post by Nightmask »

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
Arnie100 wrote:In Robotech: Love, Live, Alive, it's revealed at the end that Sera is pregnant with Lancer's baby.


Wow so he is a male and can impregnate a female, doesn't prove sexual orientation. Just biological function.


Considering they had to have had sex, something generally indicative of sexual orientation, it does prove quite a bit when added to everything else, namely nothing in support of him being anything but heterosexual (because again cross-dressing generally indicates heterosexual orientation) and everything we do have being in support of it.


Still prices nothing. It adds support to a speculation. Many gay men have impregnated women. Until something specifically says it any assumption one way or the other is only going to be speculation.

SO THERE IS NO POINT TO THIS THREAD.

here's one, is Rick, Max, Rand or Scott gay? PROVE IT.


No, it really doesn't add any support to your speculation at all. Everything we see of the character is clearly heterosexual and nothing at all supports any other suggestion. His cross-dressing is already clearly explained and it has nothing to do with his sexual preferences so one can't claim it has some hidden meaning because it has none: he did it because his ex talked him into it to save his life and he kept doing it because it proved an effective disguise for his espionage efforts nothing more. He never shows interest in men, only women, and it requires bizarro logic to try and argue that he's anything but a heterosexual male.

From a meta standpoint there's no reason to think they'd have written the character as anything but a heterosexual male and there's nothing to contradict that so one can't go 'no really maybe he is homosexual or transsexual' because there's nothing at all to provide support for such speculation, in fact it requires ignoring all the evidence that says it can't possibly be valid.
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Re: Lancer, Trans-gendered or gay?

Unread post by Arnie100 »

Some of y'all be taking this too seriously.
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Re: Lancer, Trans-gendered or gay?

Unread post by The Artist Formerly »

Arnie100 wrote:Some of y'all be taking this too seriously.

Of course. This is tangential argument about something that doesn't matter at all about a anime character. I'm impressed it's remained this civil so far. I really didn't think this through when I posted it.
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Re: Lancer, Trans-gendered or gay?

Unread post by taalismn »

The Artist Formerly wrote:
Arnie100 wrote:Some of y'all be taking this too seriously.

Of course. This is tangential argument about something that doesn't matter at all about a anime character. I'm impressed it's remained this civil so far. I really didn't think this through when I posted it.


(pinches bridge of nose) Having read too much of the byplay on Ayanami.net, I can tell you some people take their anime characters WAAAAYYYYY too seriously....At that point the people with any commonsense decide to take a time-out and reconnect with the real world for a while, while shaking their heads in disbelief.
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

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Re: Lancer, Trans-gendered or gay?

Unread post by The Artist Formerly »

taalismn wrote:
The Artist Formerly wrote:
Arnie100 wrote:Some of y'all be taking this too seriously.

Of course. This is tangential argument about something that doesn't matter at all about a anime character. I'm impressed it's remained this civil so far. I really didn't think this through when I posted it.


(pinches bridge of nose) Having read too much of the byplay on Ayanami.net, I can tell you some people take their anime characters WAAAAYYYYY too seriously....At that point the people with any commonsense decide to take a time-out and reconnect with the real world for a while, while shaking their heads in disbelief.

That's the thing. There are more articles on this board about details of stuff on screen then their are on game play. We're arguing over if a support character of no real significance is straight, gay or transgendered. We should be discussing alternate pilot character builds, mecha customizations and combat roles for different machines. We are obsessed with a cartoon aimed at ten year olds. Collectively we need help.
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Re: Lancer, Trans-gendered or gay?

Unread post by Nightmask »

The Artist Formerly wrote:
taalismn wrote:
The Artist Formerly wrote:
Arnie100 wrote:Some of y'all be taking this too seriously.

Of course. This is tangential argument about something that doesn't matter at all about a anime character. I'm impressed it's remained this civil so far. I really didn't think this through when I posted it.


(pinches bridge of nose) Having read too much of the byplay on Ayanami.net, I can tell you some people take their anime characters WAAAAYYYYY too seriously....At that point the people with any commonsense decide to take a time-out and reconnect with the real world for a while, while shaking their heads in disbelief.


That's the thing. There are more articles on this board about details of stuff on screen then their are on game play. We're arguing over if a support character of no real significance is straight, gay or transgendered. We should be discussing alternate pilot character builds, mecha customizations and combat roles for different machines. We are obsessed with a cartoon aimed at ten year olds. Collectively we need help.


He was hardly of no significance, he was quite instrumental in helping the group survive and prosper, although there shouldn't be any question about his sexuality as he's clearly heterosexual.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.

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It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
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Re: Lancer, Trans-gendered or gay?

Unread post by Jefffar »

I do think we've probably exhausted this one. So, unless you can find some new evidence about the topic in question - or as to why it actually matters, I'm going to strongly recommend that we move on to more important topics - like where did Lunk get all the spare parts and ammo?
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Re: Lancer, Trans-gendered or gay?

Unread post by Nightmask »

Jefffar wrote:I do think we've probably exhausted this one. So, unless you can find some new evidence about the topic in question - or as to why it actually matters, I'm going to strongly recommend that we move on to more important topics - like where did Lunk get all the spare parts and ammo?


Well thanks to the sellouts betraying the REF forces the Black market likely had salvaged materials from destroyed mecha to sell to interested parties, same with ammo. We see several graveyards of mecha after all during the series including at the start and sadly they likely weren't exceptions so Lunk was simply acquiring it from the grave sites and Black Market.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.

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It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
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Re: Lancer, Trans-gendered or gay?

Unread post by Jefffar »

Great, though that was kind of a hint to start fresh topics on other things rather than continue this one. ;)
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Re: Lancer, Trans-gendered or gay?

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Jefffar wrote:I do think we've probably exhausted this one. So, unless you can find some new evidence about the topic in question - or as to why it actually matters, I'm going to strongly recommend that we move on to more important topics - like where did Lunk get all the spare parts and ammo?

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Re: Lancer, Trans-gendered or gay?

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Nightmask wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
Arnie100 wrote:In Robotech: Love, Live, Alive, it's revealed at the end that Sera is pregnant with Lancer's baby.


Wow so he is a male and can impregnate a female, doesn't prove sexual orientation. Just biological function.


Considering they had to have had sex, something generally indicative of sexual orientation, it does prove quite a bit when added to everything else, namely nothing in support of him being anything but heterosexual (because again cross-dressing generally indicates heterosexual orientation) and everything we do have being in support of it.


Still prices nothing. It adds support to a speculation. Many gay men have impregnated women. Until something specifically says it any assumption one way or the other is only going to be speculation.

SO THERE IS NO POINT TO THIS THREAD.

here's one, is Rick, Max, Rand or Scott gay? PROVE IT.


No, it really doesn't add any support to your speculation at all. Everything we see of the character is clearly heterosexual and nothing at all supports any other suggestion. His cross-dressing is already clearly explained and it has nothing to do with his sexual preferences so one can't claim it has some hidden meaning because it has none: he did it because his ex talked him into it to save his life and he kept doing it because it proved an effective disguise for his espionage efforts nothing more. He never shows interest in men, only women, and it requires bizarro logic to try and argue that he's anything but a heterosexual male.


What speculation? Your the one with a speculation all I've said is that there is NOTHING in the anime that proves any orientation. Everything just leads us to the belief one way or the other and there can be no proof in a fictional work unless the character comes out and says it one way or another. It, sexual orientation, is such a minimal element of life that most authors, unless they're trying to make a point won't bother with specifying with anything other than descriptive actions whose motivations are unknown.

UNLESS A PERSON IS AN ACTIVIST IT SHOULDNT FREAKING MATTER. There is a bigger story going on that has nothing to do with sexuality.
From a meta standpoint there's no reason to think they'd have written the character as anything but a heterosexual male and there's nothing to contradict that so one can't go 'no really maybe he is homosexual or transsexual' because there's nothing at all to provide support for such speculation, in fact it requires ignoring all the evidence that says it can't possibly be valid.
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Re: Lancer, Trans-gendered or gay?

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Jefffar wrote:I do think we've probably exhausted this one. So, unless you can find some new evidence about the topic in question - or as to why it actually matters, I'm going to strongly recommend that we move on to more important topics - like where did Lunk get all the spare parts and ammo?

Wait, are you purposefully derailing the topic? Why not just lock it if your that worried?
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Re: Lancer, Trans-gendered or gay?

Unread post by Nightmask »

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
Nightmask wrote:Considering they had to have had sex, something generally indicative of sexual orientation, it does prove quite a bit when added to everything else, namely nothing in support of him being anything but heterosexual (because again cross-dressing generally indicates heterosexual orientation) and everything we do have being in support of it.


Still prices nothing. It adds support to a speculation. Many gay men have impregnated women. Until something specifically says it any assumption one way or the other is only going to be speculation.

SO THERE IS NO POINT TO THIS THREAD.

here's one, is Rick, Max, Rand or Scott gay? PROVE IT.


No, it really doesn't add any support to your speculation at all. Everything we see of the character is clearly heterosexual and nothing at all supports any other suggestion. His cross-dressing is already clearly explained and it has nothing to do with his sexual preferences so one can't claim it has some hidden meaning because it has none: he did it because his ex talked him into it to save his life and he kept doing it because it proved an effective disguise for his espionage efforts nothing more. He never shows interest in men, only women, and it requires bizarro logic to try and argue that he's anything but a heterosexual male.


What speculation? Your the one with a speculation all I've said is that there is NOTHING in the anime that proves any orientation. Everything just leads us to the belief one way or the other and there can be no proof in a fictional work unless the character comes out and says it one way or another. It, sexual orientation, is such a minimal element of life that most authors, unless they're trying to make a point won't bother with specifying with anything other than descriptive actions whose motivations are unknown.


I've no idea what anime you've been looking at but in the Robotech anime it should be clear to anyone watching it that Lancer's a heterosexual male. He's shown having had a GF in the past and showing interest in females during the run of the anime and nothing else so logically no one should think he's anything but a heterosexual male. I have no idea how you could possibly think the anime provides no proof of his sexual orientation when it's all right there in the anime. I also have no idea how you could think that sexual orientation is such a trivial aspect of a person's life when it so clearly is far more important than that (if it was so trivial we wouldn't have all the polarizing discussions and conflict over the issue in RL).
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.

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It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
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Re: Lancer, Trans-gendered or gay?

Unread post by taalismn »

Storywise, Lancer may be a less important supporting character, but I'd argue that he's as professional and skilled as Scott; he's the special forces type as opposed to Bernard's general overall heavy firepower type. And Lancer comes across as even more 'old hand', at least with regards to knowing toe situation on Earth, than Scott. Scott might not have survived his first few days on Earth without Rand, but Lancer winds up as Scott's 2nd-in-command, taking a lot of the strain of whipping Rook and Rand into fighting shape from Scott, and letting Lunk focus on keeping the equipment shipshape.
But Scott's the CATALYST, the big screamin-in snowflake that gets the avalanche going. Lancer's network may have gone on without a Scott Bernard, but with Scott(and other soldiers) making a beeline for Reflex Point, it gives the Resistance impetus...or, at the very least, breathing space as the Invid focus on the obvious human soldiers and not the more hidden combatants.

As for the parts issue? I agree, the symps probably are charged with gathering up military equipment and disposing of it, but given Invid lack of familiarity with human technology, some of the symps(or Resistance enscrounged among them) might pull a fast one on the invid by shorting the inventories of confiscated equipment and displays of hardware slated for destruction under the Invids' eyes. Obvious destruction of big guns, missiles, and mecha might conceal the fact that a lot of the equipment is sitting on a pile of rubbish, the mecha hulls are stripped of critical internal parts, and the guns are obsolete gear, while the REAL stuff is hidden out back for the neosymps' secret use or sale later, or where the Resistance can dig the stuff up later.
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

--------Rudyard Kipling
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Re: Lancer, Trans-gendered or gay?

Unread post by Nightmask »

taalismn wrote:Storywise, Lancer may be a less important supporting character, but I'd argue that he's as professional and skilled as Scott; he's the special forces type as opposed to Bernard's general overall heavy firepower type. And Lancer comes across as even more 'old hand', at least with regards to knowing toe situation on Earth, than Scott. Scott might not have survived his first few days on Earth without Rand, but Lancer winds up as Scott's 2nd-in-command, taking a lot of the strain of whipping Rook and Rand into fighting shape from Scott, and letting Lunk focus on keeping the equipment shipshape.
But Scott's the CATALYST, the big screamin-in snowflake that gets the avalanche going. Lancer's network may have gone on without a Scott Bernard, but with Scott(and other soldiers) making a beeline for Reflex Point, it gives the Resistance impetus...or, at the very least, breathing space as the Invid focus on the obvious human soldiers and not the more hidden combatants.


Standard requirement for any story of course, SOMEONE has to be the catalyst (sometimes even the villain, he does one villainous deed too many for example) and often it's the lead character who arrives from outside and shocks everyone out of their routine resulting in them crystallizing around him and his leadership or drive. But the leaders just aren't effective without those they lead making them successful, for the whole is greater than the sum of the parts if done correctly. Lancer fills the role of the local who knows all the critical information needed to help them move about and prosper, Rand the rescuer who saves the catalyst while he's still dangerously ignorant of his surroundings (such as being too idealistic to realize he was being lead into a trap right from the start), and Lunk the maintainer who keeps their equipment in combat readiness and ensures the rest can fight back when its required.

taalismn wrote:As for the parts issue? I agree, the symps probably are charged with gathering up military equipment and disposing of it, but given Invid lack of familiarity with human technology, some of the symps(or Resistance enscrounged among them) might pull a fast one on the invid by shorting the inventories of confiscated equipment and displays of hardware slated for destruction under the Invids' eyes. Obvious destruction of big guns, missiles, and mecha might conceal the fact that a lot of the equipment is sitting on a pile of rubbish, the mecha hulls are stripped of critical internal parts, and the guns are obsolete gear, while the REAL stuff is hidden out back for the neosymps' secret use or sale later, or where the Resistance can dig the stuff up later.


It is sad though when you think about how many had to die beforehand to make those parts available, often betrayed by people they trusted who sold them out either because they were active sympathizers or simply 'hey I'm too afraid of being freed from the Invid and the chaos of that so rather see you dead than fight back' sellouts.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.

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It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
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Re: Lancer, Trans-gendered or gay?

Unread post by taalismn »

Nightmask wrote:[

Standard requirement for any story of course, SOMEONE has to be the catalyst (sometimes even the villain, he does one villainous deed too many for example) and often it's the lead character who arrives from outside and shocks everyone out of their routine resulting in them crystallizing around him and his leadership or drive. But the leaders just aren't effective without those they lead making them successful, for the whole is greater than the sum of the parts if done correctly. Lancer fills the role of the local who knows all the critical information needed to help them move about and prosper, Rand the rescuer who saves the catalyst while he's still dangerously ignorant of his surroundings (such as being too idealistic to realize he was being lead into a trap right from the start), and Lunk the maintainer who keeps their equipment in combat readiness and ensures the rest can fight back when its required.


Rook's the tainted paladin, tough guy/girl hiding a gooey center and personal issues that could, at some point, jeopardize the catalyst's progress.
And of course Annie, for comedy relief(or the young innocent in danger...at least until Ariel shows up).
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

--------Rudyard Kipling
------------
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Re: Lancer, Trans-gendered or gay?

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Nightmask wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
Nightmask wrote:Considering they had to have had sex, something generally indicative of sexual orientation, it does prove quite a bit when added to everything else, namely nothing in support of him being anything but heterosexual (because again cross-dressing generally indicates heterosexual orientation) and everything we do have being in support of it.


Still prices nothing. It adds support to a speculation. Many gay men have impregnated women. Until something specifically says it any assumption one way or the other is only going to be speculation.

SO THERE IS NO POINT TO THIS THREAD.

here's one, is Rick, Max, Rand or Scott gay? PROVE IT.


No, it really doesn't add any support to your speculation at all. Everything we see of the character is clearly heterosexual and nothing at all supports any other suggestion. His cross-dressing is already clearly explained and it has nothing to do with his sexual preferences so one can't claim it has some hidden meaning because it has none: he did it because his ex talked him into it to save his life and he kept doing it because it proved an effective disguise for his espionage efforts nothing more. He never shows interest in men, only women, and it requires bizarro logic to try and argue that he's anything but a heterosexual male.


What speculation? Your the one with a speculation all I've said is that there is NOTHING in the anime that proves any orientation. Everything just leads us to the belief one way or the other and there can be no proof in a fictional work unless the character comes out and says it one way or another. It, sexual orientation, is such a minimal element of life that most authors, unless they're trying to make a point won't bother with specifying with anything other than descriptive actions whose motivations are unknown.


I've no idea what anime you've been looking at but in the Robotech anime it should be clear to anyone watching it that Lancer's a heterosexual male. He's shown having had a GF in the past and showing interest in females during the run of the anime and nothing else so logically no one should think he's anything but a heterosexual male. I have no idea how you could possibly think the anime provides no proof of his sexual orientation when it's all right there in the anime. I also have no idea how you could think that sexual orientation is such a trivial aspect of a person's life when it so clearly is far more important than that (if it was so trivial we wouldn't have all the polarizing discussions and conflict over the issue in RL).

Geez why are you getting so defensive over Lancers sexuality? All I am saying is none of it is proof. We see this limited portion of all of the characters lives for all we know, because what we see could just be an act on the part of any character. All the women In Lancers life or Ricks or Rand or any guy could just be beards and the guys in the ladies cases could be... what is the closet lesbians version of a beard? For all we TRUELY know Lancer could be interested in playing for both teams but is afraid of the stigma that comes with one so over compensates. We can only surmise from what we see and that is indeed that he is a hetro, but that IS NOT PROOF.
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Re: Lancer, Trans-gendered or gay?

Unread post by Nightmask »

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:Still prices nothing. It adds support to a speculation. Many gay men have impregnated women. Until something specifically says it any assumption one way or the other is only going to be speculation.

SO THERE IS NO POINT TO THIS THREAD.

here's one, is Rick, Max, Rand or Scott gay? PROVE IT.


No, it really doesn't add any support to your speculation at all. Everything we see of the character is clearly heterosexual and nothing at all supports any other suggestion. His cross-dressing is already clearly explained and it has nothing to do with his sexual preferences so one can't claim it has some hidden meaning because it has none: he did it because his ex talked him into it to save his life and he kept doing it because it proved an effective disguise for his espionage efforts nothing more. He never shows interest in men, only women, and it requires bizarro logic to try and argue that he's anything but a heterosexual male.


What speculation? Your the one with a speculation all I've said is that there is NOTHING in the anime that proves any orientation. Everything just leads us to the belief one way or the other and there can be no proof in a fictional work unless the character comes out and says it one way or another. It, sexual orientation, is such a minimal element of life that most authors, unless they're trying to make a point won't bother with specifying with anything other than descriptive actions whose motivations are unknown.


I've no idea what anime you've been looking at but in the Robotech anime it should be clear to anyone watching it that Lancer's a heterosexual male. He's shown having had a GF in the past and showing interest in females during the run of the anime and nothing else so logically no one should think he's anything but a heterosexual male. I have no idea how you could possibly think the anime provides no proof of his sexual orientation when it's all right there in the anime. I also have no idea how you could think that sexual orientation is such a trivial aspect of a person's life when it so clearly is far more important than that (if it was so trivial we wouldn't have all the polarizing discussions and conflict over the issue in RL).


Geez why are you getting so defensive over Lancers sexuality? All I am saying is none of it is proof. We see this limited portion of all of the characters lives for all we know, because what we see could just be an act on the part of any character. All the women In Lancers life or Ricks or Rand or any guy could just be beards and the guys in the ladies cases could be... what is the closet lesbians version of a beard? For all we TRUELY know Lancer could be interested in playing for both teams but is afraid of the stigma that comes with one so over compensates. We can only surmise from what we see and that is indeed that he is a hetro, but that IS NOT PROOF.


I'm not getting defensive (so don't be trying some kind of snipe making such comments, implying I somehow have some kind of personal investment by trying to twist my post by ascribing such reasons for it) but really like Jeffar said let it drop. If you think the guy having a GF, her being why he crossdresses in the first place and being told he does it to make him an effective spy AND showing interest in females and NOT males during the series doesn't constitute proof he's heterosexual but instead bizarrely means the opposite through some really fallacious arguments that's your problem not mine. Basic logic though says he's heterosexual and there's nothing to contradict that or make one question the evidence that he is.
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Zer0 Kay
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Re: Lancer, Trans-gendered or gay?

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Nightmask wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
Nightmask wrote:


No, it really doesn't add any support to your speculation at all. Everything we see of the character is clearly heterosexual and nothing at all supports any other suggestion. His cross-dressing is already clearly explained and it has nothing to do with his sexual preferences so one can't claim it has some hidden meaning because it has none: he did it because his ex talked him into it to save his life and he kept doing it because it proved an effective disguise for his espionage efforts nothing more. He never shows interest in men, only women, and it requires bizarro logic to try and argue that he's anything but a heterosexual male.


What speculation? Your the one with a speculation all I've said is that there is NOTHING in the anime that proves any orientation. Everything just leads us to the belief one way or the other and there can be no proof in a fictional work unless the character comes out and says it one way or another. It, sexual orientation, is such a minimal element of life that most authors, unless they're trying to make a point won't bother with specifying with anything other than descriptive actions whose motivations are unknown.


I've no idea what anime you've been looking at but in the Robotech anime it should be clear to anyone watching it that Lancer's a heterosexual male. He's shown having had a GF in the past and showing interest in females during the run of the anime and nothing else so logically no one should think he's anything but a heterosexual male. I have no idea how you could possibly think the anime provides no proof of his sexual orientation when it's all right there in the anime. I also have no idea how you could think that sexual orientation is such a trivial aspect of a person's life when it so clearly is far more important than that (if it was so trivial we wouldn't have all the polarizing discussions and conflict over the issue in RL).


Geez why are you getting so defensive over Lancers sexuality? All I am saying is none of it is proof. We see this limited portion of all of the characters lives for all we know, because what we see could just be an act on the part of any character. All the women In Lancers life or Ricks or Rand or any guy could just be beards and the guys in the ladies cases could be... what is the closet lesbians version of a beard? For all we TRUELY know Lancer could be interested in playing for both teams but is afraid of the stigma that comes with one so over compensates. We can only surmise from what we see and that is indeed that he is a hetro, but that IS NOT PROOF.


I'm not getting defensive (so don't be trying some kind of snipe making such comments, implying I somehow have some kind of personal investment by trying to twist my post by ascribing such reasons for it) but really like Jeffar said let it drop. If you think the guy having a GF, her being why he crossdresses in the first place and being told he does it to make him an effective spy AND showing interest in females and NOT males during the series doesn't constitute proof he's heterosexual but instead bizarrely means the opposite through some really fallacious arguments that's your problem not mine. Basic logic though says he's heterosexual and there's nothing to contradict that or make one question the evidence that he is.


Wow...
1. Your acting like I kicked your (insert pet species here).
2. Defensive like I've insulted your favorite fictional character and since said fictional character is fictional then said fictional character can't defend its fictional self, so your doing it for it, that. Kind of defensive, I intended to suggest nothing more, of course you'll read into that because you read into the next point.
3. All I am saying is there is no way to prove that a fictional character leans one way or another we aren't privy to their psychology and only see a fragment if their life. THERE IS NO PROOF only evidence which we, the viewers, can collect, collate and draw conclusions from conclusion with such limited life data would get us into trouble in the real world, like asking the fat lady when she is due or a metro guy what his boyfriend thinks about gay marriage. We, the viewers again, are however expected to make these leaps to fill in character information in order to develop the character in our own minds and grow attached to them.
4. I never said he was gay or bi. "I said we can't be 100% sure" and "this thread is pointless" because it doesn't matter." You are the one adamant that we can be 100% sure and the passion with which you fight this, no one else, leads me to the conclusion that you are being defensive or you'd just let it drop. Or are you the, I've gotta get the last word kind of person? Either way my opinion of your defensiveness is as valid as all of our opinions on Lancer being straight. Meaning it is opinion based on what is seen no proof one way or another.
5. In my OPINION Lancer is straight. I am after all the one who brought up the psychology fact that most x-dressers are straight and using it as a stress coping mechanism, while at the same time making statements of their traditional views and possibly sexist remarks.
6. If your not the type of person that needs to get in the last word then don't bother posting and let this pointless thread drift away as it should or go ahead and post because I'm not going to bother any more.
7. Have a good life and remember fictional characters aren't worth an aneurism.
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Re: Lancer, Trans-gendered or gay?

Unread post by Arnie100 »

This thread should be locked. :nh:

Agreed - J.
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