Was the Daedalus really a space-ship?

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Tim Wing
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Was the Daedalus really a space-ship?

Unread post by Tim Wing »

Prepare for controversy!

I just finished my Daedalus file, and I posit that the class was originally meant to be space capable. Why? Because we see ships of this class fighting in space in Robotech Episode Three.

Anyway, here is the full write up:

http://www.robotechillustrated.com/un-s ... essel-slv/
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Re: Was the Daedalus really a space-ship?

Unread post by jedi078 »

I think the vessel being seen in space is an animation error, but can be explained that the vessels were used as test beds of some sort, and with the arrival of an alien space fleet were thrown into combat.
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Re: Was the Daedalus really a space-ship?

Unread post by Tim Wing »

That was the going opinion while I was writing for the uRRG.
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Re: Was the Daedalus really a space-ship?

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

given the Daedalus and Prometheus were both quickly employed in space use, it seems likely that they were built with that possibility in mind. (issues of cooling, as well as sealing the living spaces are problematic otherwise.. cooling something off in water is very different from doing it in space, and seals designed to keep water out are very different from ones designed to keep air in against a vacuum.. the ships would have to have been designed to handle vacuum from the start, because modifying them to handle it would require a complete dismantle and rebuild.. something that would take almost as long as building a new ship [years], and which the SDF-1 didn't have time (or facilities) to do.) in the show the ships were up and running pretty much as fast as they could be attached.

to me, it seems possible that the ships were designed with antigravity generators to let them reach orbit.. the Daedalus types could then be used as massive cargo carriers (good for building stations, ARMD's, and such in orbit, as well as delivering complete mecha to said places), and the Prometheus type carriers could be used to launch waves of fighters in the event of an attack on earth.. supplementing the fighters carried by the ARMD's, and allowing attacks to come from unexpected vectors. (since an enemy would see a ARMD in orbit.. but not not catch a wet navy carrier rising up to the edge of space in time) such platforms would presumably have an advantage over the individual booster we see in the show later (IMO, it would probably allow a better warload of missiles..

of course, it is possible humanity had visions of 'space battleship yamato' in their heads when designing them, and plans for the ships to be fitted with fusion drives and such to make a full space warship were on paper but never finished..



and (sadly poor quality) screencap i found online of the ships in orbit
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Re: Was the Daedalus really a space-ship?

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Tim Wing wrote:Prepare for controversy!

I just finished my Daedalus file, and I posit that the class was originally meant to be space capable. Why? Because we see ships of this class fighting in space in Robotech Episode Three.

Anyway, here is the full write up:

http://www.robotechillustrated.com/un-s ... essel-slv/

No, it is not a "spaceship", it was one of the a wet navy Aircraft Carriers that got caught up in the SDF-1 position jump space fold. Originally. It was refurbished/retro-fitted with a vacuum tight hull after it was attached to the SDF-1. The show does not deal with any 'issues' pertaining to the two aircraft carriers except getting them attached to the Macross.

In RT1 the ship was written up as a submersible aircraft carrier, which in some ways shielded the RPer from thinking about how much of a mess a modern wet-navy ship would get with the sudden loss of pressure by making the ship pressure tight does in many ways make the ship vacuum tight.

As per current canon...*shrugs*
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Re: Was the Daedalus really a space-ship?

Unread post by eliakon »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Tim Wing wrote:Prepare for controversy!

I just finished my Daedalus file, and I posit that the class was originally meant to be space capable. Why? Because we see ships of this class fighting in space in Robotech Episode Three.

Anyway, here is the full write up:

http://www.robotechillustrated.com/un-s ... essel-slv/

No, it is not a "spaceship", it was one of the a wet navy Aircraft Carriers that got caught up in the SDF-1 position jump space fold. Originally. It was refurbished/retro-fitted with a vacuum tight hull after it was attached to the SDF-1. The show does not deal with any 'issues' pertaining to the two aircraft carriers except getting them attached to the Macross.

In RT1 the ship was written up as a submersible aircraft carrier, which in some ways shielded the RPer from thinking about how much of a mess a modern wet-navy ship would get with the sudden loss of pressure by making the ship pressure tight does in many ways make the ship vacuum tight.

As per current canon...*shrugs*

Yes, we know it was a wet navy aircraft carrier....but was that ALL it was. As the screen cap shows, there was a physically identical ship in space, and it took a suspiciously short time to 'adapt' to the SDF 1
Leading to the thought that it may have been a spaceship all along.
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Re: Was the Daedalus really a space-ship?

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

actually these appear before the space fold, as the SDF-1 first reaches orbit and before it dives back to to the island to fold.

and watertight =/= vacuumtight.. holding air in against zero outside pressure is a very different design requirement to holding pressured water out. not to tmention the totally different cooling systems required for each enviroment (needed to get rid of waste heat from powerplant, life support, electronics, etc.).. or that something not designed for space use is unlikely to be fitted with artificial gravity on it's decks..
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Re: Was the Daedalus really a space-ship?

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

I would say that the ship in space was as canon as the Orgus Mecha that appears in one of the battle sequences, an easter egg.
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Re: Was the Daedalus really a space-ship?

Unread post by Tim Wing »

Another thing to consider: Both ships has artificial gravity by the time they were attached to the SDF-1... not something you would need on a conventional surface ship. (Though, playing devil's advocate, this could have been a general gravity field created by the SDF-1's anti-gravity pods... the show never addresses how artificial gravity is created.)

Still, the most telling evidence is the fact we see ships of the Daedalus and Prometheus classes operating in space before the space fold.

a) This means that either some ships were "refitted" to operate as spaceships, or
b) They were designed from the outset to operate as spaceships.

All things being equal, I think it is more likely that they were designed as spaceships from the outset. Consider how difficult it would be to turn a conventional sub into a spaceship... same rules would apply.
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Re: Was the Daedalus really a space-ship?

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

i'd say both were designed for use in space.. but maybe not all ships were fitted with anti-grav yet. we don't really see much other examples of human anti-grav use (mostly just big-ass rockets) so i'd imagine copying the anti-gravity pods might have proven tricky and/or too expensive to do in bulk.. at least in the period earth had before the war.

but designing the ability to have the pods installed into both classes would simplify things compared to custom building a sub-class.
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Re: Was the Daedalus really a space-ship?

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Given the speed at which the Dead/Prom. ships are adapted to the SDF-1 in space, they almost certainly have to have been using hardware that was already space rated, not to mention a docking system. Not only do you have to contend with cooling issues and pressure issues of the ship itself as previously mentioned, but all the equipment it uses to. A monumental task to say the least, and it was all done w/n roughly 2weeks on two ships while rebuilding a city (section there of, and possibly even the base).

I'm not sure that they would have had anti-gravity pods, if they had then they should have been able to restore the SDF-1's system properly (recall that a good number tore free in Ep2). Conventional systems would seem to make the most sense based on the SDF-1 displayed use of the technology. At your listed fueled mass (268,000 metric tons dry, plus 32,450 metric tons of fuel), and assuming an Isp of 100,000sec for a fusion system and neglecting payload and assuming the fuel is all Hydrogen in some form (SLMH for density?) you end up with a Delta-V capacity of ~112kilometers per second, more than enough to reach orbit and perform maneuvers and project military force. Now I am omitting the mass of the crew/stores/mecha for simplicity here, but assuming an average dry mass of 30metric tons for each destroid and 1/2 that for the helicopters, and 100kg for each person (which is over weight IINM) you only drop the Delta-V to ~110kps, now I'm still omitting stores for lifesupport (food, water, air) and ordnance but there appears to a lot of wiggle room (unless the drive's ISP is much lower, which seems unlikely). The main question here though is where the ports are for said engines if they are using conventional drives.

One role that the Dead/Prom. ships might have been intended to find themselves in at a later date is extra-solar colonization. The SDF-1 arrives (since it is the only known human ship w/Fold Drives), drops off a carrier or two (more if using the Fold Bubble) with colonist load and leaves once things are setup. The base would then have limited planetary projection and protection capacity until the SDF-1 (or another Fold-capable ship) returns with additional support permanent/temporary.
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Re: Was the Daedalus really a space-ship?

Unread post by Tim Wing »

I'm thinking the Delta-V requirement would be significantly less. As long as the anti gravity system is installed, it would be able to get the ship to high altitude, low earth orbit, at which time there would no longer be enough of the Earth's gravitational field for the system to act against (assuming that this is how the system works... big assumption since it is never explained.) Once in low Earth orbit, the conventional rockets would take over and move it into higher orbit/free space. For this, the 112 kps would be MORE than enough. I don't really see a way to get these ships off the planet without anti-grav. It would require the ship to launch in a vertical orientation... difficult to find a gantry for a ship this size. To say nothing of the havoc 4 g's of acceleration would play on the hanger levels...

One role that the Dead/Prom. ships might have been intended to find themselves in at a later date is extra-solar colonization.


This would be a great role for them! Though I imagine surplus Zentraedi ships would have fit the bill even better... maybe that's what happened to them all by the time the Masters arrived. (FYI: In my opinion, the disposition of all those Zentraedi ships when the Robotech Masters arrived was moth balled, in orbit somewhere... maybe the far side of the moon or near Space Station Liberty. First order of business for the Masters would be to destroy them, which perhaps happened "of screen" before the UEDF had a chance to fire them up. Pure conjecture, needless to say. This is just me rambling.)
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Re: Was the Daedalus really a space-ship?

Unread post by Rabid Southern Cross Fan »

Well,

there does seem to be animation that shows the Daedalus might have anti-grav....

Daedalus/Prometheus in space
Daedalus anti-grav?
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Re: Was the Daedalus really a space-ship?

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

@Tim Wing
No the Delta-V requirements are going to be the same. It takes the same amount of Delta-V to lift a 100kg object into orbit as it does a 1,000,000kg object. As far as launching the vessels vertically, they do not need to re-orientate the vessel they could launch it horizontally (either like the SDF-1 launched w/it's backup engines or like a sea plane, the sea plane would be pretty wasteful though). And there is no reason they have to subject themselves to 3-4gs either and could reduce it to manageable levels (they could have artificial gravity control to, it really depends if the ARMD/Orberth had the technology in place).

I don't think the Dead/Prom. class used anti-gravity systems at all because of the use on the SDF-1 went so poorly. If the ships had anti-gravity thrust, then there should have been experience relating to the system in terms of installation and use. Yet we end up with a situation that doesn't appear they restored the system properly or they didn't know how to use it properly. So I don't see how they could have operational ships (multiple) working properly and get the SDF-1 wrong.

There really isn't a need for a launch gantry either. If the vessels are supposed to self-deploy from anywhere in the world they will need to be able to launch independently, which means no gantry. Now they could launch vertically or at an angle if they adjusted their pitch in the water, but that requires them to be in deep enough water to support such a maneuver. Such a feat will likely also add complexity and time to launch related activities than the horizontal launch approach.

I would think that the colonization role would be part of long range plans that pre-date contact with the Zentreadi (so pre-2009). Earth likely will be looking to establish off-world locations with some degree of self-sufficiency even before 2009 to ensure the survival of the human race if Earth should be attacked at least humans would have fall back locations. Now that may be 10 or more years down the road. Post 2009-11 period the influx of Zentreadi ships likely would push for their use instead of whatever remains of the Dead/Prom-class fleets.
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Re: Was the Daedalus really a space-ship?

Unread post by Kagashi »

I could see them being originally designed for seafaring vessels (likely used during the GCW), but later refitted for space use after the discovery of the SDF-1 to provide some sort of space-borne defense before vessels like the ARMD and Oberths could be properly constructed for space combat.

After all, as has been pointed out previously, they are clearly shown in space prior to the space fold, although playing a minor role in the initial attack of the Zentraedi. Likewise, the SDF-1 attached them fairly quickly after the Pluto jump. That seems to indicate that they were already designed for space.

The most likely answer was it was an animation error and the key animator for that sequence was told to put "ships" in that brief scene.
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Re: Was the Daedalus really a space-ship?

Unread post by Tim Wing »

The most likely answer was it was an animation error and the key animator for that sequence was told to put "ships" in that brief scene.


This is my feeling as well... but now we are stuck with the mistake. Thanks B-team. lol.

As for the Daedalus, I'm pretty certain it had anti-grav... we see it floating above the sea right before the SDF-1 folds. No indications what-so-ever of rocket thrusters pushing it aloft.

Still, as for the anti-grav system's effect on delta-v requirements, I'm not so sure. With anti-grav on, you effectively have a ship with zero weight... but not zero mass. So the ship would require only enough delta-v to accelerate that mass. BUT, as we see when the SDF-1 is lifting off under anti-grav, the anti grav pods can impart negative weight on the vessel, making it lighter than air. The SDF-1 was gaining altitude without the help of thrusters. So the question is now how high can the anti-grav pods lift a ship? If the anti-grav pods are negating the effect of Earth's gravity on the ship, then is there still the same velocity requirement to escape Earths gravity well?

For low Earth orbit, the orbital velocity requirement is only 6.9 to 7.8 km/s... well within the listed delta-v capacity. If the anti-gravity pods can lift the ship to over 200 km above the earth, then only 6.9 to 7.8 km/s of delta-v is required...

Is there a physicist in the house? We need adjudication? lol.
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Re: Was the Daedalus really a space-ship?

Unread post by guardiandashi »

Tim Wing wrote:
The most likely answer was it was an animation error and the key animator for that sequence was told to put "ships" in that brief scene.


This is my feeling as well... but now we are stuck with the mistake. Thanks B-team. lol.

As for the Daedalus, I'm pretty certain it had anti-grav... we see it floating above the sea right before the SDF-1 folds. No indications what-so-ever of rocket thrusters pushing it aloft.

Still, as for the anti-grav system's effect on delta-v requirements, I'm not so sure. With anti-grav on, you effectively have a ship with zero weight... but not zero mass. So the ship would require only enough delta-v to accelerate that mass. BUT, as we see when the SDF-1 is lifting off under anti-grav, the anti grav pods can impart negative weight on the vessel, making it lighter than air. The SDF-1 was gaining altitude without the help of thrusters. So the question is now how high can the anti-grav pods lift a ship? If the anti-grav pods are negating the effect of Earth's gravity on the ship, then is there still the same velocity requirement to escape Earths gravity well?

For low Earth orbit, the orbital velocity requirement is only 6.9 to 7.8 km/s... well within the listed delta-v capacity. If the anti-gravity pods can lift the ship to over 200 km above the earth, then only 6.9 to 7.8 km/s of delta-v is required...

Is there a physicist in the house? We need adjudication? lol.

I am not a physicist per say but here's the deal as I understand it. the biggest reason rockets pull the g's they do is that within the limits of our current technology its the most efficient way to generate the velocity change needed for the orbital launch.

Technically if you had a vessel that could generate and maintain the thrust required for long enough. If you had a craft that weighed 50,000 lbs, and generated 50,001 lbs of thrust and could maintain it "indefinitely" it would be able to lift off and eventually make it to orbit. or putting it another way. gravity on earth is ~32ft/s, or 9.8m/s if you have a craft that can generate ~9.9 m/s (or more) of thrust it can take off. the problem is fuel supply, with our current rockets they are going to burn up their fuel supply in a few minutes and just for amusing giggles? http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/sho ... p?t=179145

basically the point is that there was a major push a while back to create a spacecraft that was a system where you had a big aircraft of some kind that took off, and carried the actual spacecraft to some altitude say 25-50k feet, then released the actual spacecraft to head to orbit from there but they ran into a lot of technical issues.
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Re: Was the Daedalus really a space-ship?

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Tim Wing wrote:As for the Daedalus, I'm pretty certain it had anti-grav... we see it floating above the sea right before the SDF-1 folds. No indications what-so-ever of rocket thrusters pushing it aloft.

How is that an indication that anti-gravity is the culprit though? It could just as easily be seen as an AE (even w/n the idea the ship is actually there aspects of its flight may still be subject to AE), or indication they used something like Magnetic Levitation given the difficulty the SDF-1 crew had using the AnG hardware.

I don't recall seeing the SDF-1 having exhaust either during its decent and hold and indications are they are not using the AnG system either given their first use IMHO.

It is possible the exhaust is invisible to the naked eye and/or at the distance involved (and if the exhaust ports are obscured they could also hide the "glow" of an active drive). It is a military vessel after all so they may have taken steps to mask the exhaust plumes in the name of stealth.

Tim Wing wrote:Still, as for the anti-grav system's effect on delta-v requirements, I'm not so sure.

It isn't going to have an effect. All you are really doing is exchanging a propulsion method that releases material for one that doesn't to generate velocity. The orbital parameters for the desired orbit and starting position are what determine the delta-v requirements. You may be able to use the anti-gravity system to maintain a given altitude/position, but without the actual velocity you aren't technically in orbit, but rather sub-orbital.

So yes you could use the AnG system to raise your altitude before firing up the engines to get the required velocity (if AnG system hasn't imparted enough velocity). You could also use the system to maintain a given altitude, but all indications are the craft in question are actually in orbit so they have to have the required velocity.
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Re: Was the Daedalus really a space-ship?

Unread post by Tim Wing »

It could just as easily be seen as an AE (even w/n the idea the ship is actually there aspects of its flight may still be subject to AE)


I'm trying to avoid chalking things up to animator errors where possible... (This, of course is not ALWAYS possible... obviously, Roy's VF-1S didn't suddenly sprout a VF-1A style head... and I'll of course leave the A-12 cargo plane alone...)

or indication they used something like Magnetic Levitation given the difficulty the SDF-1 crew had using the AnG hardware.


Mag Lev is possible, of course. But just because they failed to properly reinforce the anti-grav mounts in the SDF-1 does not mean they made the same design error in the Daed/Prom ships.

It is possible the exhaust is invisible to the naked eye and/or at the distance involved (and if the exhaust ports are obscured they could also hide the "glow" of an active drive). It is a military vessel after all so they may have taken steps to mask the exhaust plumes in the name of stealth.


This is true, but the ship was only about fifty meters above the ocean... it would be throwing up a hell of allot of sea spray if it was using anything like conventional thrusters.
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Re: Was the Daedalus really a space-ship?

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

and we don't see anything like rocket clusters on the ships either. they just float.. and we see several in orbit.

also, your making assumtions about the anti-grav when you say it can't generate thrust..

first, the bioroid hover sleds fly via anti-grav even in space.. and we don't see much in the way of thrusters firing.
second, if all they did was negate gravity, the SDF-1's generators would never have ripped free of their mountings.. that kind of event require the generators to create momentum. just negating the pull of gravity would not do that.

like so many scifi series, in robotech the name 'anti-gravity' seems to get applied to what is basically a reaction-less drive with some sort of limit that prevents it from being used as a main propulsion in deep space.
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Re: Was the Daedalus really a space-ship?

Unread post by Kagashi »

Tim Wing wrote:As for the Daedalus, I'm pretty certain it had anti-grav... we see it floating above the sea right before the SDF-1 folds. No indications what-so-ever of rocket thrusters pushing it aloft.


As a kid, I always assumed the floating was a result of the fold itself. Who knows? Perhaps it was trying to make it to orbit with the SDF-1 independently.
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Re: Was the Daedalus really a space-ship?

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Tim Wing wrote:I'm trying to avoid chalking things up to animator errors where possible... (This, of course is not ALWAYS possible... obviously, Roy's VF-1S didn't suddenly sprout a VF-1A style head... and I'll of course leave the A-12 cargo plane alone...)

I'm not much for chalking things up to AE either since they can provide discussion topics (Sylphid's morphing wing, "Broken Heart"'s mini-Destroids, etc).

Time Wing wrote:Mag Lev is possible, of course. But just because they failed to properly reinforce the anti-grav mounts in the SDF-1 does not mean they made the same design error in the Daed/Prom ships.

Actually it does. The SDF-1's techno-systems are mostly intact, so they would have a very good idea on what the mounts should look like since damage seemed to be confined primarily to the hull (per Ep1 dialogue). Never mind native computer data or other material that should have been recovered, and the alien computer(s) we know was still in use on some levels (Main Gun "booby trap"). Work on the Dead/Prom. should have given them experience in how to mount, experience in use, and allowed them to do modeling/simulations that could have a region confirmed through use prior to restoration work on the SDF-1 or even after it had been done.

Tim Wing wrote:This is true, but the ship was only about fifty meters above the ocean... it would be throwing up a hell of allot of sea spray if it was using anything like conventional thrusters.

Given that the SDF-1 was supposed to be at 2,000ft altitude (~615meters), 50meters seems awfully low. I realize the Fold bubble descended downward indicating the ship is below the SDF-1, but I'm not sure it has to be that low.

When the Fold starts there is a profile view of the SDF-1 and the bubble forming, assuming the floating sky-carriers are those dark specks, they are all at an altitude w/n the cruiser mode height of the SDF-1 of 312m meaning at best the lowest floating ship is likely around (615-312=)303m (~985ft). This then cuts to additional shots of the Fold bubble expanding, but per the profile shot it has reached max so we are seeing the Fold bubble form from different angles IMHO as it forms so it is unlikely the ships/specks descended further.

As for the spray, yes that should be there (the waters though are pretty choppy IIRC, and the Fold made them worse so it could merely be masked and we are over estimating the reach of the exhaust). However given that Gloval (and 2/3 of Bridge Bunnies repeat) calls for full Anti-Gravity thrust w/the SDF-1 in Ep2 it would appear that Anti-Gravity should also create a sea spray from its thrust (force) I would think given Ep7 (Bye Bye Mars) when the reworked gravity control system was used to move the ship since the main engines where disabled, and it threw up a dust storm when the SDF-1 moved from its initial landing zone on to the base (albeit the SDF-1 was much closer to the ground than the floating sky carrier, and it was at ~1/3 Earth Gravity).
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Re: Was the Daedalus really a space-ship?

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

shadowlogan, anti-gravity would not kick up spray.. anti-gravity is a reaction-less drive. spray is kicked up because of the mass of exhaust in a reaction drive (like a rocket, jet, etc) hitting the water and displacing it.

reaction-less drives like anti-gravity have no exhaust plumes and thus would generate no spray. basically they just create velocity along a vector with no visible means of generation.

as for mars.. the dust storm does not mean much. mar's lower gravity and fine grain dust like sand is kicked up easily.. and while the SDF-1 might have been using anti-grav for lift, it probably would have been using small reaction thrusters for fine maneuvering/lateral propulsion.
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Re: Was the Daedalus really a space-ship?

Unread post by The Artist Formerly »

First, in reality, they only had so much money for animation so they reused.

Now explaining that could be, post war, there were only one or two ship yards capable of building things on such size and scale. First they build the familiar, with new tech, then you start adopting the familiar to bridge to the new. When you need a giant warship in space, you're going to go the guys who build giant warships. On that size and scale, the super carrier guys are going to be the only game in town. So adapting one technology base to the other could be an outgrowth of the other. I guess...

The P and D might have been ported at Macross so the mecha construction facilities could arm the ships with their assigned mecha. Although why they would all be concentrated in a single location is kind of weird...
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Re: Was the Daedalus really a space-ship?

Unread post by taalismn »

The Artist Formerly wrote:First, in reality, they only had so much money for animation so they reused....



Not sure the cited images of the Daedalus in space have any corresponding earlier footage of them in motion on Earth, but I doubt reusing of animation cells.
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Re: Was the Daedalus really a space-ship?

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The Artist Formerly wrote:First they build the familiar, with new tech, then you start adopting the familiar to bridge to the new. When you need a giant warship in space, you're going to go the guys who build giant warships. On that size and scale, the super carrier guys are going to be the only game in town. So adapting one technology base to the other could be an outgrowth of the other. I guess...

The P and D might have been ported at Macross so the mecha construction facilities could arm the ships with their assigned mecha. Although why they would all be concentrated in a single location is kind of weird...


Well, this is rare, but I totally agree with you Taffy. You would start with pre-existing technology being adapted to the new, to learn from it before trying something totally new.
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Re: Was the Daedalus really a space-ship?

Unread post by The Artist Formerly »

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:
The Artist Formerly wrote:First they build the familiar, with new tech, then you start adopting the familiar to bridge to the new. When you need a giant warship in space, you're going to go the guys who build giant warships. On that size and scale, the super carrier guys are going to be the only game in town. So adapting one technology base to the other could be an outgrowth of the other. I guess...

The P and D might have been ported at Macross so the mecha construction facilities could arm the ships with their assigned mecha. Although why they would all be concentrated in a single location is kind of weird...


Well, this is rare, but I totally agree with you Taffy. You would start with pre-existing technology being adapted to the new, to learn from it before trying something totally new.


Plus, a all environmental model would provide a number of cost saving advantages.
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Re: Was the Daedalus really a space-ship?

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The Artist Formerly wrote:First, in reality, they only had so much money for animation so they reused.

True, but that doesn't really seem to fit in this situation. You'll be hard pressed to find a source they could have "reused" for the shots in question IINM, so the "money" aspect doesn't hold up. It really does look deliberately done, either as an in-joke or supposed to be there, since they could have simply drawn in more Orberth's or ARMDs in any of those shots.

The Artist Formerly wrote:Now explaining that could be, post war, there were only one or two ship yards capable of building things on such size and scale. First they build the familiar, with new tech, then you start adopting the familiar to bridge to the new. When you need a giant warship in space, you're going to go the guys who build giant warships. On that size and scale, the super carrier guys are going to be the only game in town. So adapting one technology base to the other could be an outgrowth of the other. I guess...

Except if you are looking for the familiar, in this case you likely would not be using wet-navy ships. The familiar aspect would be building aircraft and spacecraft and rockets, not wet-navy ships.

Its also questionable if you would want to build a ship that large on the surface of Earth and then launch it with established familiar technology (and fusion systems and anti-gravity are not). It is highly doubtful they would build the ship completely on the surface for launch using familiar technologies (while possible, it would not be close to practical), they would actually look at orbital assembly (which FTS graphic novel/comic-series suggests is the case for the ARMD).

The Artist Formerly wrote:Plus, a all environmental model would provide a number of cost saving advantages.

No it wouldn't. You would likely be looking at increased costs for all the capabilities.
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Re: Was the Daedalus really a space-ship?

Unread post by Kagashi »

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:
The Artist Formerly wrote:First they build the familiar, with new tech, then you start adopting the familiar to bridge to the new. When you need a giant warship in space, you're going to go the guys who build giant warships. On that size and scale, the super carrier guys are going to be the only game in town. So adapting one technology base to the other could be an outgrowth of the other. I guess...

The P and D might have been ported at Macross so the mecha construction facilities could arm the ships with their assigned mecha. Although why they would all be concentrated in a single location is kind of weird...


Well, this is rare, but I totally agree with you Taffy. You would start with pre-existing technology being adapted to the new, to learn from it before trying something totally new.


This is pretty much the explanation in the the Robotech Reference Guide.
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Re: Was the Daedalus really a space-ship?

Unread post by The Artist Formerly »

ShadowLogan wrote: True, but that doesn't really seem to fit in this situation. You'll be hard pressed to find a source they could have "reused" for the shots in question IINM, so the "money" aspect doesn't hold up. It really does look deliberately done, either as an in-joke or supposed to be there, since they could have simply drawn in more Orberth's or ARMDs in any of those shots.


Maybe. I don't know, but animation budget seems to be the simplest answer. Of course by my logic, the D exists simply as a giant robot arm so the good guys can punch enemy ships...

Except if you are looking for the familiar, in this case you likely would not be using wet-navy ships. The familiar aspect would be building aircraft and spacecraft and rockets, not wet-navy ships.

Its also questionable if you would want to build a ship that large on the surface of Earth and then launch it with established familiar technology (and fusion systems and anti-gravity are not). It is highly doubtful they would build the ship completely on the surface for launch using familiar technologies (while possible, it would not be close to practical), they would actually look at orbital assembly (which FTS graphic novel/comic-series suggests is the case for the ARMD).


Eh... Building something on that scale just so outstrips what the aero-space industry had in it's reach at the time. Orbital construction at the time solves problems, but it also creates a bunch. Getting that much mass into space is tricky. Before you can build something, you'd need to get a ship yard of some sort up and running. Plus we never see such a thing in the core animation. And I'm not familiar with the comic series so I couldn't comment in any meaningful way.

American super carrier ship yards, however, either the construction docks at Newport News VA or one of the functional dry docks already have all of the logistical supply lines, heavy construction equipment, and number of workers who either have the skill set or have comparable skill sets. Plus global senator (?) Bob who's district has New Port News in it, is going to fight tooth and nail to keep those global bucks rolling in to his home district.

No it wouldn't. You would likely be looking at increased costs for all the capabilities.


Sure it would. If the RDF has a warship that can fight in the air, in space and on/under the water, you have one ship that does it all. One ship that can fight in any theater is much more useful then having to deploy three ships that specialize in each theater. Additionally, the ability to float means that two thirds of the world's surface is useful as a landing zone. That kind of thinking allows for gun boat diplomacy when dealing with rouge states or anti-unification groups.
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Re: Was the Daedalus really a space-ship?

Unread post by jaymz »

You guys realize it is said RIGHT IN THE SHOW that the Daedalus and Prometheus were not designed for space (stated by Gloval in the show, 2 minutes, 15 seconds into episode 4) so modifications had to be made to make them operational and useful to be docked to the SDF-1 right?

I'll take that over animation shots that have long since been called animation errors by the creators.
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Re: Was the Daedalus really a space-ship?

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

The Artist Formerly wrote:Maybe. I don't know, but animation budget seems to be the simplest answer.

It is the simplest answer yes, but it is one that doesn't really work for reasons already mentioned.

The Artist Formerly wrote:Sure it would. If the RDF has a warship that can fight in the air, in space and on/under the water, you have one ship that does it all. One ship that can fight in any theater is much more useful then having to deploy three ships that specialize in each theater. Additionally, the ability to float means that two thirds of the world's surface is useful as a landing zone. That kind of thinking allows for gun boat diplomacy when dealing with rouge states or anti-unification groups.


No it doesn't. Those specialized theater ships will be cheaper to produce and maintain than the multi-role ship. Plus by being multi-role they have to usually sacrifice and balance requirements. Consider this to make it space operable, they will need a more complex thermal management system, a system they don't need for normal operations, so what are you giving up to make room for it? How long do you want the ship to be able to operate in space from a life support perspective (that means they have to have XYZ amounts of water, breathable air, and food), and what are you willing to give up for it. What about space propulsion, how far out do you want the ship to be able to go, and what are you prepared to give up to allow it to carry the necessary propellant?

The Artist Formerly wrote:Eh... Building something on that scale just so outstrips what the aero-space industry had in it's reach at the time. Orbital construction at the time solves problems, but it also creates a bunch. Getting that much mass into space is tricky. Before you can build something, you'd need to get a ship yard of some sort up and running. Plus we never see such a thing in the core animation. And I'm not familiar with the comic series so I couldn't comment in any meaningful way.

American super carrier ship yards, however, either the construction docks at Newport News VA or one of the functional dry docks already have all of the logistical supply lines, heavy construction equipment, and number of workers who either have the skill set or have comparable skill sets. Plus global senator (?) Bob who's district has New Port News in it, is going to fight tooth and nail to keep those global bucks rolling in to his home district.

As far as orbital shipyards go, for orbital assembly we've built two modular space stations without them (four if you want to count the end-of-life expansion module for Salyut 6/7 space stations) and done numerous on-orbit docking (Gemini, Apollo CSM/LM/Skylab, Soyuz/Salyut/Progress variation). There are also plenty of concepts for orbital assembly w/o them to. So it is clearly possible to do the work without some type of hard facility in orbit. Supporting would be an issue early on, but not out of the question if they have to take the time to design the ships (which even the wet-navy shipyards will have to do) allowing them to build up the necessary infrastructure. The reason we don't see anything like it in the animation is because the period in question isn't covered.

This really doesn't outstrip what the aero-space industry is capable of either. They have more applicable practical experience in this regard than the wet-navy shipyards whose only benefit is building things bigger than what they are use to. Outside of that though, the wet-navy shipyards are going to be dependent on the aerospace industry for help, who conversely can probably get by without them since it is not practical to launch objects as large as we are discussing using conventional/familiar technologies. So there is no way an early response would be to modify a wet-navy ship design for space use.

Political forces certainly will be a factor, but in this case it will be a harder sell if they try to get on the space bandwagon since they have limited applicable expertise. Odds are also that the Politicians from Aerospace Industry districts will far out number the shipyard districts.

jaymz wrote:You guys realize it is said RIGHT IN THE SHOW that the Daedalus and Prometheus were not designed for space (stated by Gloval in the show, 2 minutes, 15 seconds into episode 4) so modifications had to be made to make them operational and useful to be docked to the SDF-1 right?

I'm aware of the statement by Gloval, but it doesn't explain the sightings in Ep3 of sister ships to those two (IF we assume these aren't an AE, which is a premise for this topic). Nor does it explain the speed at which they made the conversion. So either those carriers where not "complete" leaving them in the state of being just aircraft carriers but "finishable" or the space mode was not in place (it does not appear that Gloval expected to take Macross Island with him, so the carriers in the harbor would not have reason to convert), or the ship isn't as responsive to needing to switch to space mode as a submarine would be to dive (which is also reasonable) when the pressure dropped.
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Re: Was the Daedalus really a space-ship?

Unread post by jaymz »

Honestly?

I think some of you REALLY overthink things at times. Seeing as the sighting of them in space in question was of poor quality animation to begin with, sometime animation errors are just that. There is zero need for any explanation of their existence beyond that.
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Re: Was the Daedalus really a space-ship?

Unread post by The Artist Formerly »

jaymz wrote:Honestly?

I think some of you REALLY overthink things at times. Seeing as the sighting of them in space in question was of poor quality animation to begin with, sometime animation errors are just that. There is zero need for any explanation of their existence beyond that.


Obviously. But we're working on a no-prize here. Just roll with it have some fun.
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Re: Was the Daedalus really a space-ship?

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Re: Was the Daedalus really a space-ship?

Unread post by The Artist Formerly »

ShadowLogan wrote:No it doesn't. Those specialized theater ships will be cheaper to produce and maintain than the multi-role ship. Plus by being multi-role they have to usually sacrifice and balance requirements. Consider this to make it space operable, they will need a more complex thermal management system, a system they don't need for normal operations, so what are you giving up to make room for it? How long do you want the ship to be able to operate in space from a life support perspective (that means they have to have XYZ amounts of water, breathable air, and food), and what are you willing to give up for it. What about space propulsion, how far out do you want the ship to be able to go, and what are you prepared to give up to allow it to carry the necessary propellant?


Well, if you want to jump into the real concepts of this, how does a veritech not just fall apart? The real world concept of taking something with so many moving parts, and then turning it into giant walking robot is absurd. But we roll with it because transformable giant robots are awesome! We don't need reality, we need plausibility.

Life support is probably some sort of Zor inspired tech ripped off from the SDF-1 wreck that's so efficient we don't need to worry about it. Water is recyclable for the most part, it's not a perfect system, but the losses are likely small enough to be managed. Foods is a trick, but a small hydroponics bay would off set some of that. Or one could note the concept of the ARMD platforms, plus both the bases on Luna and Mars as supply points.

As for propulsion, gravity/antigravity, Mass Effect style. Once you've got that trick, everything else is academic. From launch day, we can see that the RDF knew about anti-gravity systems, and had an expectation of it working, but not sufficient experience with to know the anti grav drives were about to tear free. Probably how they got the ARMDs up in the first place.

As far as orbital shipyards go, for orbital assembly we've built two modular space stations without them (four if you want to count the end-of-life expansion module for Salyut 6/7 space stations) and done numerous on-orbit docking (Gemini, Apollo CSM/LM/Skylab, Soyuz/Salyut/Progress variation). There are also plenty of concepts for orbital assembly w/o them to. So it is clearly possible to do the work without some type of hard facility in orbit. Supporting would be an issue early on, but not out of the question if they have to take the time to design the ships (which even the wet-navy shipyards will have to do) allowing them to build up the necessary infrastructure. The reason we don't see anything like it in the animation is because the period in question isn't covered.

This really doesn't outstrip what the aero-space industry is capable of either. They have more applicable practical experience in this regard than the wet-navy shipyards whose only benefit is building things bigger than what they are use to. Outside of that though, the wet-navy shipyards are going to be dependent on the aerospace industry for help, who conversely can probably get by without them since it is not practical to launch objects as large as we are discussing using conventional/familiar technologies. So there is no way an early response would be to modify a wet-navy ship design for space use.


Again. Eh.... I can't discount the possibility, especially if we factored the above anti-gravity idea, and but a space shipyard is such an unforgiving place. One little **** up, and weeks worth of work could be ruined. hard vacuum is extremely hard on parts, and number of composites componets won't form properly under low gravity which means they have to be built in the lab and then moved outside. Labor is going to troublesome, any EVA work or even just inspections have very hard time limits in the form of portable air. You have a whole other level of extra training to go through, safety issues, and very few ways to test in place. I'm not sure that the advantages of Zero G construction off set those disadvantages. But, I don't see it. Seems like they'd build on earth and then move the parts to space, or build the whole thing on earth and then send the finished ship up. Which parallels what we saw with the SDF-1.

And the scale of such a build is certainly a factor. Aero-space just isn't geared for that. The space stations we've built are tiny, tiny, tiny things compared to a supercarrier. Even today Boeing doesn't build the 787, all of the construction is subcontracted out and then for final assembly. Air bus in basically in the same boat with their A380, just with more political infighting between England, France and Germany. And both of those are tiny compared to a supercarrier. Building in space just has so many limitations and problems to solve during the SDF-1 reconstruction era, for something we don't ever see in animation, feels implausible to me. Once the RDF had the factory, that's a different thing then.

Political forces certainly will be a factor, but in this case it will be a harder sell if they try to get on the space bandwagon since they have limited applicable expertise. Odds are also that the Politicians from Aerospace Industry districts will far out number the shipyard districts.


I think you missed my point. Boeing would want contracts for Georgia and Washington states, with subcontracts for Japan, Texas and Spain. Airbus wants contracts for England, Germany and France. That's where your consitutencies live. No one lives in space during this time period, they just work there. A Elton John said, Mars isn't a place to raise your kids. Plus Northrop Grumman owns the New Port News ship yard. That's significant, because the F-14 (which the VF were modeled after) were built by Grumman aero-space, who merged with Northrop to form Northrop-Grumman. They or their game world equivalent, would be on the very bleeding edge of this. Wiki them if you want to see all the crap they build for the defense industry.
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Re: Was the Daedalus really a space-ship?

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Re: Was the Daedalus really a space-ship?

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The Artist Formerly wrote:Life support is probably some sort of Zor inspired tech ripped off from the SDF-1 wreck that's so efficient we don't need to worry about it. Water is recyclable for the most part, it's not a perfect system, but the losses are likely small enough to be managed. Foods is a trick, but a small hydroponics bay would off set some of that. Or one could note the concept of the ARMD platforms, plus both the bases on Luna and Mars as supply points.

You still have to make allowances for the necessary hardware, hardware which the other mission roles won't require so you degrade capability from somewhere. And resupply is always an option, but not something they should rely on. Putting in the hydroponics bay would help, but it also means you have to give up something to get the capacity.

The Artist Formerly wrote:As for propulsion, gravity/antigravity, Mass Effect style. Once you've got that trick, everything else is academic. From launch day, we can see that the RDF knew about anti-gravity systems, and had an expectation of it working, but not sufficient experience with to know the anti grav drives were about to tear free. Probably how they got the ARMDs up in the first place.

The SDF-1 in my opinion shows that while they are familiar with gravity control/anti-gravity, they had no real experience with the technology else the system would not have torn free. How do they get the D&P-sister ships correct on their own, but royally screw up on the SDF-1 which likely had proper examples of the hardware intact (dialogue establishes this should be the case since most of the techno-systems are intact, and they even managed to raise it onto support pylons somehow).

Per the canon comics, the ARMDs are built in space. Those ships also likely have access to the more advanced propulsion systems the SDF-1 has, otherwise they (ARMD and Orbeth's) would require impractical levels of propellant for "familiar" drive technologies. The only way to reliably launch an ARMD/Orberth would be with something like fusion systems (or gravity control), not chemical rockets or even fission based rockets they are just to inefficient.

The Artist Formerly wrote:Seems like they'd build on earth and then move the parts to space, or build the whole thing on earth and then send the finished ship up. Which parallels what we saw with the SDF-1.

Oh I agree they would build sections on Earth and them move them to into space rather than try and do all the construction in space. But they are still doing the final assembly in space. It's just more practical.

The SDF-1 though would be a special case for the UEDF fleet at the time since the ship was already on the ground, not stranded in orbit. Disassembling it would be an option, but one that isn't needed given the technology on the ship. The later UEDF:ASC era had ships launch whole sale from the surface, but they would also have access to the more advanced technology that the UEDF would not be "familiar" with in the 2000s, though even they go for the reaction based engines instead of gravity control.

The Artist Formerly wrote:I think you missed my point. Boeing would want contracts for Georgia and Washington states, with subcontracts for Japan, Texas and Spain. Airbus wants contracts for England, Germany and France. That's where your consitutencies live. No one lives in space during this time period, they just work there. A Elton John said, Mars isn't a place to raise your kids. Plus Northrop Grumman owns the New Port News ship yard. That's significant, because the F-14 (which the VF were modeled after) were built by Grumman aero-space, who merged with Northrop to form Northrop-Grumman. They or their game world equivalent, would be on the very bleeding edge of this. Wiki them if you want to see all the crap they build for the defense industry.

That they would want contracts I don't dispute, but it seems highly unlikely they are going to go the space route w/o some pretty good facts, facts which the govt will check to determine who to give contracts to. It seems more likely that they would push for defense work that those sites can handle w/o completely reinventing them and sites that have no real experience building spacecraft of any kind. It just makes more sense to go to the experienced builders of spacecraft/rockets than wet-navy ships if you are looking to build a fleet of spacecraft.
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Re: Was the Daedalus really a space-ship?

Unread post by jaymz »

The Artist Formerly wrote:The real world concept of taking something with so many moving parts, and then turning it into giant walking robot is absurd.


And yet we are very close to making this (at least the walking combat capable robot if not a transformable one) into reality with the "conventional" we have.....not as absurd as you may think.
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Re: Was the Daedalus really a space-ship?

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ShadowLogan wrote:You still have to make allowances for the necessary hardware, hardware which the other mission roles won't require so you degrade capability from somewhere. And resupply is always an option, but not something they should rely on. Putting in the hydroponics bay would help, but it also means you have to give up something to get the capacity.


Absolutely. But we're guessing at support tech we don't ever see and trying to extrapolate from fragments. I would argue, but not very hard, that post global civil war, the RDF was approaching moving to the stars with a fleet mentality. Using Earth, Luna and Mars as star bases, and maybe one of Jupiter's moons. That lets the RDF fleet defend the core of Sol, and conduct counter giant alien fleet operations.

The SDF-1 in my opinion shows that while they are familiar with gravity control/anti-gravity, they had no real experience with the technology else the system would not have torn free. How do they get the D&P-sister ships correct on their own, but royally screw up on the SDF-1 which likely had proper examples of the hardware intact (dialogue establishes this should be the case since most of the techno-systems are intact, and they even managed to raise it onto support pylons somehow).


I disagree. Earth had working anti-grav systems, they had used them before, things worked fine. It wasn't an everyday technology, but this wasn't their first time at bat either. It was just that the SDF-1 was the largest mass they'd ever tried to move and weren't familiar enough with what they were doing to prevent it.

Per the canon comics, the ARMDs are built in space. Those ships also likely have access to the more advanced propulsion systems the SDF-1 has, otherwise they (ARMD and Orbeth's) would require impractical levels of propellant for "familiar" drive technologies. The only way to reliably launch an ARMD/Orberth would be with something like fusion systems (or gravity control), not chemical rockets or even fission based rockets they are just to inefficient.


That's my hang up though, building in space is just so complex. There are so many things that can go wrong. And you've got to move everything you need to do the work and everything to support those tools and everyone you need to do the work and everyone you need support those people, and of the gear to support people... Eh.

Oh I agree they would build sections on Earth and them move them to into space rather than try and do all the construction in space. But they are still doing the final assembly in space. It's just more practical.

The SDF-1 though would be a special case for the UEDF fleet at the time since the ship was already on the ground, not stranded in orbit. Disassembling it would be an option, but one that isn't needed given the technology on the ship. The later UEDF:ASC era had ships launch whole sale from the surface, but they would also have access to the more advanced technology that the UEDF would not be "familiar" with in the 2000s, though even they go for the reaction based engines instead of gravity control.


I suppose, still tough as hell to build up there. And we do see artificial gravity in use onboard the SDF-1 through out the series. I would argue, grav/anti-grav tech would be the biggest prize of the SDF-1's tech. That's the one that would draw the most study, and it would allow the most advancement of human science.

The Artist Formerly wrote:That they would want contracts I don't dispute, but it seems highly unlikely they are going to go the space route w/o some pretty good facts, facts which the govt will check to determine who to give contracts to. It seems more likely that they would push for defense work that those sites can handle w/o completely reinventing them and sites that have no real experience building spacecraft of any kind. It just makes more sense to go to the experienced builders of spacecraft/rockets than wet-navy ships if you are looking to build a fleet of spacecraft.


But no one in the aero-space industry has those kinds of building chops. Aero-space doesn't build anything on that kind of scale. It's easier to build them on earth, then float them up on anti-grav. It would dramatically cut costs and provide a larger margin of error. All of heavy ship construction gear is already at Newport News. All of those specialized tools are there. All of the guys who have experience working on something of that size and scale are there. Bring the work to them rather then them to the work.

The politicians win that way to, because shipyard workers who vote get to live at home, with their families, some of whom might vote. Working in space would be like working on an oil rig. It's isolated, and the company would have to pay more just to get people to work up there.
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Re: Was the Daedalus really a space-ship?

Unread post by The Artist Formerly »

jaymz wrote:
The Artist Formerly wrote:The real world concept of taking something with so many moving parts, and then turning it into giant walking robot is absurd.


And yet we are very close to making this (at least the walking combat capable robot if not a transformable one) into reality with the "conventional" we have.....not as absurd as you may think.

Built into a jet fight that transforms from one to another? The idea is silly in practicality. Just awesome in imagination.

Robotic vehicles is one thing. Such things can be done, though I'm not sure what the practical applications are vs existing vehicles. There was that video from Japan with that madcat looking robot.
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Re: Was the Daedalus really a space-ship?

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The Artist Formerly wrote:
jaymz wrote:
The Artist Formerly wrote:The real world concept of taking something with so many moving parts, and then turning it into giant walking robot is absurd.


And yet we are very close to making this (at least the walking combat capable robot if not a transformable one) into reality with the "conventional" we have.....not as absurd as you may think.

Built into a jet fight that transforms from one to another? The idea is silly in practicality. Just awesome in imagination.

Robotic vehicles is one thing. Such things can be done, though I'm not sure what the practical applications are vs existing vehicles. There was that video from Japan with that madcat looking robot.


in one of john ringo's sci-fi series they addressed the fleet model issue as well, granted its a kind of silly series because they use a converted nuclear sub as the basis for their first starship. In that series the reason the Navy won out over the air force as the "core" force for the space military was that the navy had a better "fit" for most of the mission roles.

it was expressed as "the navy has a lot more experience building and running ships for long duration mission roles. IE you load up a ship and typically it goes and does its thing for up to months or more before heading back to port. (granted there are exceptions like carriers that get resupplied on a regular basis in order to do their jobs but.... )

on the other hand the air force is more built around quick in and out missions operating from fixed bases. (at least that was the statement by the author)

with that said there is a huge difference between the modern aerospace industry, and the navy/space military we see in robotech. Granted the space military in macross is in its infancy but I see in a lot of ways a NAVAL focus adapted for the needs of the space environment makes a lot of sense to me...
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Re: Was the Daedalus really a space-ship?

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The Artist Formerly wrote:Absolutely. But we're guessing at support tech we don't ever see and trying to extrapolate from fragments. I would argue, but not very hard, that post global civil war, the RDF was approaching moving to the stars with a fleet mentality. Using Earth, Luna and Mars as star bases, and maybe one of Jupiter's moons. That lets the RDF fleet defend the core of Sol, and conduct counter giant alien fleet operations.

While the actual hardware size can be shrunk down, the actual air, water, and food are limited in what you can do. Each person will require ~5kg of food/water/air per day (~0.8kg of air, ~0.6kg of food, ~3.5kg of water). That is for non-military spaceflight to, so the values might actually go up if they need to burn more calories. Water use will also be higher form other activities to IIRC since that doesn't include things like hygine. For the approx. ~4,000 people on the Deadelus, you need to be able to provide ~20,000kg of consumables each day. Recycling systems are far from 100% efficient so you will have losses, and you have to figure the system may be down for repairs, both of which will push for some type of margin to be in place. Given the critical nature of these systems redundancy is also going to be included.

The Artist Formerly wrote:I disagree. Earth had working anti-grav systems, they had used them before, things worked fine. It wasn't an everyday technology, but this wasn't their first time at bat either. It was just that the SDF-1 was the largest mass they'd ever tried to move and weren't familiar enough with what they were doing to prevent it.

I don't think Earth did have any real working experience with an anti-grav system or the SDF-1 would not have had issues, nor would they have installed engines designed on Earth to lift the ship off!

The Artist Formerly wrote:That's my hang up though, building in space is just so complex. There are so many things that can go wrong. And you've got to move everything you need to do the work and everything to support those tools and everyone you need to do the work and everyone you need support those people, and of the gear to support people... Eh.

Is it complex? Yes. Is it a show stopper? No. Long term the UEDF is going to want to get experience working in space, so it would make sense that they would do everything they can to get as experienced as they can in operating in space as fast as they can, which would include being able to do repair/damage control (which assembly should give them some practical experience with).

The Artist Formerly wrote:But no one in the aero-space industry has those kinds of building chops. Aero-space doesn't build anything on that kind of scale. It's easier to build them on earth, then float them up on anti-grav. It would dramatically cut costs and provide a larger margin of error. All of heavy ship construction gear is already at Newport News. All of those specialized tools are there. All of the guys who have experience working on something of that size and scale are there. Bring the work to them rather then them to the work.

The politicians win that way to, because shipyard workers who vote get to live at home, with their families, some of whom might vote. Working in space would be like working on an oil rig. It's isolated, and the company would have to pay more just to get people to work up there.

The thing is they don't have to build a single thing that big on the surface or at at one location. They can produce sections in various parts of the world and then move them to an assembly area. The basic approach is used in a variety of manufacturing applications. And off hand the Rigid Airships of the 30s where built fairly large (not quite the size of an Orberth, but certainly shows they can build large ships with a significant % of its size, the USS Macon was ~239m long by ~41/45m wide/tall and the Hindenburg was bigger, the modern B-2 bomber has a wingspan greater than the diameter of either vessel). And rocket assembly certainly shows that they can assembly large pieces together into a working vehicle on the ground.

I would also add that the comics strongly imply that at the assembly stage (in orbit for the ARMD at least) the work was being done by military personnel, not civilian contractors which would pull the rug out from your argument about the civilian workers on the surface needing to choose between travel into space regularly or going without work.
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Re: Was the Daedalus really a space-ship?

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ShadowLogan wrote:While the actual hardware size can be shrunk down, the actual air, water, and food are limited in what you can do. Each person will require ~5kg of food/water/air per day (~0.8kg of air, ~0.6kg of food, ~3.5kg of water). That is for non-military spaceflight to, so the values might actually go up if they need to burn more calories. Water use will also be higher form other activities to IIRC since that doesn't include things like hygine. For the approx. ~4,000 people on the Deadelus, you need to be able to provide ~20,000kg of consumables each day. Recycling systems are far from 100% efficient so you will have losses, and you have to figure the system may be down for repairs, both of which will push for some type of margin to be in place. Given the critical nature of these systems redundancy is also going to be included.


Agreed. But that technology is one form or another was present in Zentraedi craft, and would have had to have been present on the SDF-1 when Zor built it. It could have been some sort of hybridized form. If Zor more or less solved these problems, it fits what we saw in the series.

I don't think Earth did have any real working experience with an anti-grav system or the SDF-1 would not have had issues, nor would they have installed engines designed on Earth to lift the ship off!


If they had no experience with it at all, they wouldn't have fired them off at all and used whatever they did to get the SDF-1 off the ground as their first effort. All of humanities greatest engineering disasters have happened when we had enough data to feel comfortable with what we were doing and didn't see the danger. Gloval had and expectation that the system would work. Desperate or no, he wouldn't have used them. Not if he's got another working system.

Is it complex? Yes. Is it a show stopper? No. Long term the UEDF is going to want to get experience working in space, so it would make sense that they would do everything they can to get as experienced as they can in operating in space as fast as they can, which would include being able to do repair/damage control (which assembly should give them some practical experience with).


Absolutely. Just not yet. Besides, even with all of the positions both of us are arguing, it would still be easier to bring a ship to planet side dry-dock then a space born one.

The thing is they don't have to build a single thing that big on the surface or at at one location. They can produce sections in various parts of the world and then move them to an assembly area. The basic approach is used in a variety of manufacturing applications. And off hand the Rigid Airships of the 30s where built fairly large (not quite the size of an Orberth, but certainly shows they can build large ships with a significant % of its size, the USS Macon was ~239m long by ~41/45m wide/tall and the Hindenburg was bigger, the modern B-2 bomber has a wingspan greater than the diameter of either vessel). And rocket assembly certainly shows that they can assembly large pieces together into a working vehicle on the ground.

I would also add that the comics strongly imply that at the assembly stage (in orbit for the ARMD at least) the work was being done by military personnel, not civilian contractors which would pull the rug out from your argument about the civilian workers on the surface needing to choose between travel into space regularly or going without work.


Our side of communist states, militaries don't build stuff. You'd want to bring in the companies, which are the specialist in these efforts. A group like the Army corp of engineers might be brought in, end of the day it's corporate interests that do these things. So we can toss that right out the gate.

I think an easier way to cut to the chase on this, if they were building in space, getting that kind of mass up there, chemically, would be incredibly expensive and time consuming. Anti-gravity solves that problem. And if we have anti-gravity, why not build on earth? Then you don't have to put people in space. And instead of adding anti-gravity to transports, why not add them to the warships, then one ship does everything, decreasing logistical demands.
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Re: Was the Daedalus really a space-ship?

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The Artist Formerly wrote:Agreed. But that technology is one form or another was present in Zentraedi craft, and would have had to have been present on the SDF-1 when Zor built it. It could have been some sort of hybridized form. If Zor more or less solved these problems, it fits what we saw in the series.

Not really, at least for the non-SDF-1 UEDF ships. They would have had to been able to reproduce the technology for ships other than the SDF-1, which they may or may not have been able to do at that time. While Air and Water recycling will help immensely (you'll still want some margins due to losses from combat damage, inefficiencies, etc), there isn't much you can do with the food requirements short of something like Star Trek's replicator, and I don't think we see any indication that such a system is present (and even if we assume one is present you'll still want physical stocks for emergencies or when the system is down).

The Artist Formerly wrote:If they had no experience with it at all, they wouldn't have fired them off at all and used whatever they did to get the SDF-1 off the ground as their first effort. All of humanities greatest engineering disasters have happened when we had enough data to feel comfortable with what we were doing and didn't see the danger. Gloval had and expectation that the system would work. Desperate or no, he wouldn't have used them. Not if he's got another working system.

Not necessarily. Gloval used the Space Fold system and per dialogue "we're not even sure how the system works" in Ep3 by Claudia. Gloval also states they don't understand even 1/2 the ships systems yet in Ep2, and he also had reservations about taking the SDF-1 up (it was untested, and they aren't even sure if it will fly). So clearly the UEDF/Gloval was willing to gamble with the untested technologies on the ship.

The boosters weren't even fueled at that point Moran ordered Gloval up (Claudia reports the boosters being fueled in a later scene), so the Anti-gravity pods would be the fastest way to launch the ship at that point since they had to launch in short order.

The Artist Formerly wrote:Absolutely. Just not yet. Besides, even with all of the positions both of us are arguing, it would still be easier to bring a ship to planet side dry-dock then a space born one.

No now would be the time. The UEDF doesn't have an idea of when the Zentreadi or some other aliens will show up.

And no, it would not be easier to bring ships of this size planet side for construction and launch with the mature/familiar technology they had available from Earth. And mature propulsion technology for them would be chemical rocket engines. Even if we assume as a derivative in the time line involved them using NERVA style rockets as mature, it wouldn't be easy. The requirements for propellant (and thus tanks) are going to be huge if you try to lift something that big at once using either propulsion technology. So they have to wait for the alien derived technology to filtrate in to even consider building a ship on the ground and launching it.

The Artist Formerly wrote:Our side of communist states, militaries don't build stuff. You'd want to bring in the companies, which are the specialist in these efforts. A group like the Army corp of engineers might be brought in, end of the day it's corporate interests that do these things. So we can toss that right out the gate.

I think an easier way to cut to the chase on this, if they were building in space, getting that kind of mass up there, chemically, would be incredibly expensive and time consuming. Anti-gravity solves that problem. And if we have anti-gravity, why not build on earth? Then you don't have to put people in space. And instead of adding anti-gravity to transports, why not add them to the warships, then one ship does everything, decreasing logistical demands.

Except indications are that the military is the one building the stuff in RT. There is no real indication that private companies are doing any of the work in this sector in RT.

It will certainly be expensive to use chemical rockets to build the ship up there on several fronts, not just the cost in fuel but in terms of the hardware itself (if it is non-reusable). However, mass production can be used to lower those costs. Anti-gravity may not even be more cost effective when you consider the cost of energy production to power the unit, and if you have to use conventional systems to acquire the necessary velocity to achieve orbit.
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Re: Was the Daedalus really a space-ship?

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I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. We're arguing opinions based on seconds of anime and trying to inject fragments of real world concepts to justify our opinions. I don't see enough merit to your argument to change my mind.
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Re: Was the Daedalus really a space-ship?

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Yes, we'll have to agree to disagree.
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