Mecha as Spaceship Weapons - split from Robotech: Spaceships

[glitterboy2098]

to be fair, in the Series and in the RPG, human mecha kick alien rear... and in the RPG the human ships generally carry lots of fighters. which makes up for a lot of their more limited integral weaponry.

[Seto Kaiba]

to be fair, in the Series and in the RPG, human mecha kick alien rear...

Eh... in the series, human mecha aren't actually all that great. It's only the New Generation where they actually have an advantage over their enemy in performance. In the Macross Saga, they're pretty evenly matched, but humanity's at a disadvantage in the numbers game... a disadvantage that doesn't work against them for the simple reason that the Zentradi aren't trying to kill them. In the Masters Saga, the bioroids pretty thoroughly trounce the Earth forces mecha any time they get serious, and the war only lasts as long as it does because the Masters don't get serious until the very end.

and in the RPG the human ships generally carry lots of fighters. which makes up for a lot of their more limited integral weaponry.

Well, that much is true... but the human ships are also armored with crepe paper and wishful thinking, so those ships don't get a lot of opportunity to launch fighters either.

[taalismn]

You pray the enemy doesn't have MORE fighters and better point defense.

[glitterboy2098]

You pray the enemy doesn't have MORE fighters and better point defense.

zent ships in the show don't seem to have much in the way of point defense as we'd define it.. they're better off in the RPG, but mainly because their turrets got oddly downsized in power.

i suspect they use their mecha for point defense normally.


but my point with human mecha is things liek the VF-1 (which can carry big anti-ship missiles, and with super-packs, still carry enough anti-mecha firepower to punch through a zent mecha swarm), the ASC's various fighters (the space ones like the chimera pack fairly heavy munitions loads), and things like the UEEF's Beta and the Condor, both of which can carry the same styles of anti-shipping missiles the VF-1 can. though to be fair, by the time the Beta becomes common enough to be a factor, going by the show, the UEEF ships have synchrocannons, as does the beta.

[Seto Kaiba]

but my point with human mecha is things liek the VF-1 (which can carry big anti-ship missiles, and with super-packs, still carry enough anti-mecha firepower to punch through a zent mecha swarm)

In Robotech, the VF-1 is the single most versatile and high-performance mecha humanity ever built... but even then, the series isn't shy about driving home that the Zentradi can fight the VF-1 to a standstill on foot, never mind with mecha. The only reason they lasted at all is because the Zentradi were fighting with the metaphorical kid gloves on.

(In the Macross universes, the VF-1 is considered to have been something of a mediocre fighter for that exact reason... the mistaken assumptions that constrained its size left it vulnerable because of how lightly armed and armored it was.)

the ASC's various fighters (the space ones like the chimera pack fairly heavy munitions loads),

Compared to what? They've only got a handful of conventional missiles.

and things like the UEEF's Beta and the Condor, both of which can carry the same styles of anti-shipping missiles the VF-1 can.

No they can't.

In the show, the Beta is never actually depicted with pylons... and never mind that "reflex warheads" for fighter use are never seen again after the Macross Saga. We never get a good look at the missiles that the Conbat uses, and the RT.com stats decline to identify them as well. The OSM identifies those as just ordinary air-to-air missiles.

In the RPG, neither the Beta nor the Conbat can take long-range missiles at all. Seriously. They top out with medium-range conventional missiles. Only a few Macross Saga designs can even take LRMs.

though to be fair, by the time the Beta becomes common enough to be a factor, going by the show, the UEEF ships have synchrocannons, as does the beta.

For one offensive... after which it's discovered that the systems are all inherently faulty and, in the RPG, are disabled in place or scrapped outright to prevent them from being used to detonate the ships carrying them. The synchro cannons on the larger starships are depicted as being pretty weak compared to the weapons seen on the Zentradi ships and the SDF-1 as well, and the fighter-carried ones never get used.

[glitterboy2098]

Conbat can carry 1000lbs of ordinance per hardpoint
LRm's are 1000lbs.
ergo, conbats can carry LRM's.
there is no specific per hard point missile #'s given, just the weight or ordinance they can carry.

their art shows them with LRM's too..

[Seto Kaiba]

Conbat can carry 1000lbs of ordinance per hardpoint
LRm's are 1000lbs.
ergo, conbats can carry LRM's.

Wrong. Let's refer to the actual text, please.

The "External Ordinance Hardpoints" entry for the Conbat reads as follows:

2. External Ordnance Hardpoints
Under each wing, inboard from the engine nacelles, are two weapon hardpoints. These can be configured to carry short- and medium-range missiles or light and medium bombs. These hardpoints can also mount multiple launch pods loaded with rockets or mini-missiles. Each hardpoint can mount 1,000 pounds (450kg) of ordnance.

The text is very clear and very concise... the Conbat's pylons can take SRMs, MRMs, light bombs, medium bombs, and MLOPS. No long range missile capability is mentioned. Barring the number of pylons and the condition to eject all ordnance before transformation, the text is identical for the Beta. These craft do not support LRMs. If they did, the text would say so... the way it does for the VF-1, F203, MiM-31, Avenger II, Comanchero, and Heavy Artillery Battlepod, which are incidentally the only craft thus far in the RPG which are able to take LRMs per the text.

EDIT: On further reading, the purpose of the 1,000lb weight limit is obvious... it's guidance for the bomb load the pylons can take. One light bomb is 500lb, and a medium bomb is precisely 1,000lb.

there is no specific per hard point missile #'s given, just the weight or ordinance they can carry.

The text clearly indicates the types of missiles that can be taken on those pylons, and LRMs are NOT an option given in the text. Indeed, it's only those Macross Saga mecha who are stated to be able to take LRMs.

their art shows them with LRM's too..

No, it does not. The art shows them with a missile that is not identified in canon or in the RPG, but under the RPG must be at most a medium-range missile because the text does not indicate the Conbat's pylons can take LRMs.

As far as the OSM can clue us in, those are ordinary air-to-air missiles... nothing more.

[glitterboy2098]

stats trump fluff.. it has the carriage for LRm's, so it can carry LRM's. if was only supposed to carry SRm's and MRM's, it would have a specific missile # per hard point for those in the stats. as seen in many other mecha entries.

SRM's and MRM's may be a common loadout for the invid era, but it is clearly not its only one.

as for the art.. we see it with missiles bigger than a human. roughly the same size as those anti-shipping nukes of the VF-1. so either those are really obese medium missiles (unlikely) or they are LRM's..

[eliakon]

Just a fair note. That BOTH sides here have a point. It does say 1,000 lbs of ordinance, and it says a list of ordinance. In the defense of the "no LRMs" camp the listed ordinance does not include them. In the defense of the "LRMs are fine" camp it also does not say that the list is wholly exhaustive, and thus there is a possibility of other things being mounted with the listed ones being simply the most common.

[Seto Kaiba]

stats trump fluff.. it has the carriage for LRm's, so it can carry LRM's.

That IS stats... it is part of a weapon's stats entry, explicit and irrefutable, which indicates that a Conbat's pylons can take specific categories of ordnance. The only types of ordnance the rules, as written, state a Conbat's pylons are compatible with are SRMs, MRMs, 500lb/light bombs, 1000lb/medium bombs, and the MLOPs with mini-missiles or rockets. Until you can present an explicit statement that the Conbat can use long-range missiles, it cannot take them except via a house rule.

if was only supposed to carry SRm's and MRM's, it would have a specific missile # per hard point for those. as seen in many other mecha entries.

If it was supposed to be able to carry LRMs, it would be mentioned in the weapon's stats the way it is for every fighter and helicopter that actually can... and it is not. This convention is common throughout the entire "2nd Edition" RPG.

as for the art.. we see it with missiles bigger than a human. roughly the same size as those anti-shipping nukes of the VF-1. so either those are really obese medium missiles (unlikely) or they are LRM's..

The physical size of the missile is immaterial as far as the RPG is concerned... and as the Conbat cannot, per RAW, take any missiles other than mini-missiles, SRMs, and MRMs, it must therefore belong to one of those three categories. Even the canon stats on Robotech.com do not identify that as a long-range missile... nor do they support your contention that the Conbat can take LRMs.




The near-total lack of any appreciable anti-ship capability after the Macross Saga is why I'm not all that concerned that we haven't got a spaceships book. Ship-to-ship combat is a boondoggle without a lot of house rules, and nothing the UEEF and UEDF has, per RAW, is much threat to an enemy ship anyway... after the Masters Saga, nothing even has LRM capability.

[glitterboy2098]

Seto.. descriptive text (aka fluff) is not rules.
the rules state that it can carry 1000Lbs of ordinance. so anything 1000lbs or less can be mounted.
LRM's are 1000Lbs, so Rules as Written, it can carry LRM's.

[Seto Kaiba]

Seto.. descriptive text (aka fluff) is not rules.

Fluff, my friend, is flavor text that has no bearing on the game's rules.

The descriptive text included in the weapons and performance statistics is part of the game's actual rules (the "Crunch"). It contains, among other things, information on the weapon's location on the vehicle, and game-relevant details about the weapon's operation and capability. It has always been thus. For pylons, one of the things it tells us is what may be carried on the pylons. This is true for all fighters with pylons. The rules for breaching force fields with the Shadow Fighter's destabilizer are in the description section of the EU-15's rules.

the rules state that it can carry 1000Lbs of ordinance. so anything 1000lbs or less can be mounted.

The Rules As Written clearly state, as quoted previously, that the Conbat may only use its pylons to carry short- or medium-range missiles, light or medium bombs, and ordnance containers for mini-missiles or rockets, and that the weight limit for ordnance per pylon is 1,000lb.

LRM's are 1000Lbs, so Rules as Written, it can carry LRM's.

No, the Phalanx's LRMs are approximately 1,000lbs... no statement is made of weight for the LRMs carried by fighters. You're making a completely unfounded assumption the two are the same.

[eliakon]

Seto.. descriptive text (aka fluff) is not rules.

Fluff, my friend, is flavor text that has no bearing on the game's rules.

The descriptive text included in the weapons and performance statistics is part of the game's actual rules (the "Crunch"). It contains, among other things, information on the weapon's location on the vehicle, and game-relevant details about the weapon's operation and capability. It has always been thus. For pylons, one of the things it tells us is what may be carried on the pylons. This is true for all fighters with pylons.

There is a valid argument to be made though that the description, while important, is subordinate to the actual stats. And the mecha stats don't have the limitation listed. meaning that it has to be inferred what the descriptions information is meant to be, and how it is applied.

the rules state that it can carry 1000Lbs of ordinance. so anything 1000lbs or less can be mounted.

The Rules As Written clearly state, as quoted previously, that the Conbat may only use its pylons to carry short- or medium-range missiles, light or medium bombs, and ordnance containers for mini-missiles or rockets, and that the weight limit for ordnance per pylon is 1,000lb.

Technically the rules do not say that those are the exclusive loads (nor do they say that they are not exclusive) so to be fair there is some support for both views.
And as pointed out, the exclusion text is in the description, not the actual stats. Which is one reason that its not cut and dried.

LRM's are 1000Lbs, so Rules as Written, it can carry LRM's.

No, the Phalanx's LRMs are approximately 1,000lbs... no statement is made of weight for the LRMs carried by fighters. You're making a completely unfounded assumption the two are the same.

And your now making an unfounded assumption that LRMs differ in weight (but not in any other statistic) based on platform....

Guess this is what we call "seeing things through our own personal bias"

[Seto Kaiba]

There is a valid argument to be made though that the description, while important, is subordinate to the actual stats.

Doubtful... the descriptive text often, as in this case, contains ACTUAL RULES and stats including which modes a weapon may be used in, special effects like piercing force fields, what types of missiles pylon mountings can take, and so on. This is practically a universal thing in the RT RPG. The descriptive text is part of the rules... not like "history of this mecha" bit that has no influence on the mechanics.

And your now making an unfounded assumption that LRMs differ in weight (but not in any other statistic) based on platform....

Actually, I am not... we have at least two known weights for long-range missiles in the text through two different platforms. The Phalanx's "approximately 1,000lb" LRM, and the Regult's 3 ton LRM, just off the top of my head. Also, I didn't specify them differing in just weight.

[eliakon]

There is a valid argument to be made though that the description, while important, is subordinate to the actual stats.

Doubtful... the descriptive text often, as in this case, contains ACTUAL RULES and stats including which modes a weapon may be used in, special effects like piercing force fields, what types of missiles pylon mountings can take, and so on. This is practically a universal thing in the RT RPG. The descriptive text is part of the rules... not like "history of this mecha" bit that has no influence on the mechanics.

That is your interpretation of the issue yes, you have made that point repeatedly. You feel that (in this case) the description is a rule and trumps everything else. As I am pointing out though, there is nothing clearly stating that your assumption is indeed the official, canonical stance of the publishers. Furthermore your stance is undermined by your claims in other locations that the descriptions are NOT to be taken as rules, and should be disregarded.

And your now making an unfounded assumption that LRMs differ in weight (but not in any other statistic) based on platform....

Actually, I am not... we have at least two known weights for long-range missiles in the text through two different platforms. The Phalanx's "approximately 1,000lb" LRM, and the Regult's 3 ton LRM, just off the top of my head. Also, I didn't specify them differing in just weight.

Two problems with this from a Robotech perspective (or even trying to use this as a logical defense)
1)Now your trying to say that because the Zentradi Missile and the Human missile have different weights, that the Human missiles must have different weights for different mecha. That's logically specious since they are not even the same RACE.
Now if you have two HUMAN missiles with different weights, you might have a case....although your actually making GBs case with this you realize? Since now your saying that LRMs can weigh different things....so now we don't have to worry about the Phalinx LRM being ~1000lb because you just said that we can use a different weight missile!
2)AND your little bit talks about the idea that the missiles have different stats. Shame that the RPG (you know the thing being discussed here) already says that they have certain stats. Any argument that starts with "the source books we are talking about are wrong, and I am right" is inherently flawed. Now if you have a game citation that says that various LRMs of the same class have different effects you would have a point. But as it is your comment makes about as much sense saying "I didn't say that dropped objects fall"....that doesn't mean that dropped objects DONT fall (Unless your David Hume).

[Of The Funk]

LRm's are 1000lbs.

Code: Select all

[citation needed]

I have the Shadow Chronicles core book in front of me right now, open to the list of missile stats on page 131, and don't see a weight listed for any single missile. I can only conclude from the evidence in front of me that when the entry for the Conbat's hardpoints lists what type of missiles it can carry...they meant to provide a list of the missiles it can carry. Not 'a list of missiles it can carry plus some other stuff we didn't bother to write down'.

[glitterboy2098]

missile weights are scattered throughout the mecha entries, not on the missile chart. silly i know but that's palladium for you.

there is actually no entry for LRM's in the RT:tSC-RPG book, but in the macross saga book, it gets 2, in the VF-1 and Phalanx entries. since the SRM and MRM entries are the same across the shadow chronicles, southern cross, and macross books, it stands to reasosn the LRM's would be the same too. (especially since by all evidence, human tech gets more advanced, not less.)

the compiled list:
Standard Earth Missiles: (weights match up over multiple unit entries. missile size lists diameter.)
Mini-missile - 5lbs/2.25kg Missile Size: 60mm, 70mm, 78mm
Short Ranged Missile - 33lbs/15kg Missile Size: 190mm, 178mm
Medium Range Missile - 80lbs/36.6kg Missile Size: 178mm, 377mm, 530mm
Long Range Missile - 1000lbs/450kg Missile Size: 430mm, 800mm, 914.4mm

Standard Earth Bombs:
Mini-Bomb - 100lbs/50kg
Light Bomb - 500lbs/225kg
Medium Bombs - 1000lbs/500kg
Heavy Bombs - 2000lbs/500kg

Non-standard missiles: (Unique missiles with either non-standard weights, or with non-standard capabilities)
60mm rockets (MM) - about 1.3lbs/.4kg (RL-6 rocket launcher RT:SC pg145)*
HARM-80 - 800lbs/360kg (RT:MS pg69, 87)
190mm ATGMS (SRM) - 46.6lbs/21kg (MK-17 AAML. RT:MS, pg135)
178mm SAM (MRM) - 191lbs/86kg (MK-18 AAML. RT:MS, pg135)
377mm MMDS-8 SAM (MRM) - 225lbs/101kg (RT:SC pg149)
800mm HMDS-10 TBM (LRM) - 650lbs/292.5kg (RT:SC pg150)

[Of The Funk]

In that case, it seems...unlikely that the RAW were intended to make players and GMs refer to books that weren't even out yet when Shadow Chronicles came out. As opposed to using the listed guidance on p. 88-89 of that very book. Unless there was a TARDIS included with every copy of the book and I somehow missed out (curse you Amazon!).

[glitterboy2098]

In that case, it seems...unlikely that the RAW were intended to make players and GMs refer to books that weren't even out yet when Shadow Chronicles came out. As opposed to using the listed guidance on p. 88-89 of that very book. Unless there was a TARDIS included with every copy of the book and I somehow missed out (curse you Amazon!).

except when you start argueing about intentions your no longer using rules as written..

rules as written, the stats (not the descriptive text, which has never been considered rules, ever, in PB products) say it can carry up to 1000Lbs. so as long as what you want to load is 1000Lbs or less, it can be carried.

[Of The Funk]

In that case, it seems...unlikely that the RAW were intended to make players and GMs refer to books that weren't even out yet when Shadow Chronicles came out. As opposed to using the listed guidance on p. 88-89 of that very book. Unless there was a TARDIS included with every copy of the book and I somehow missed out (curse you Amazon!).

except when you start argueing about intentions your no longer using rules as written..

rules as written, the stats (not the descriptive text, which has never been considered rules, ever, in PB products) say it can carry up to 1000Lbs. so as long as what you want to load is 1000Lbs or less, it can be carried.

If your interpretation of the RAW requires time travel, I think there's a serious problem with your interpretation.

[glitterboy2098]

no there isn't. the game includes much more than just the main book, and period specific sourcebooks were known to be in the works. (heck, the guy who wrote them had started on macross saga as he was finishing up the main book.)
and there are multiple books in the game. you can't pick and choose which to include when examining the game. any time you have multiple sourcebooks, all of them are valid, not just one. the weight for LRM's could be extroplated from the MRM and SRM entries in the main book, and it still would end up 1000lbs or under. the macross book just codified it.

now if we were having this debate when all we had was the main book, you'd have a point. but we have the main book and 5, soon to be 6, sourcebooks.

Rules as written includes all the books, not just one. and if your argueing 'intentions', you have no solid ground to stand on, because the author's intentions cannot be known to us. it comes down to "i think this, you think that, i choose to beleive i'm better."

RAW is common ground.

[Of The Funk]

The thing is, at the end of the day, it's not RAW. It's inherently RAI. This is the weapon listing for the Conbat's hardpoints:

2. External Ordnance Hardpoints (4): Under each wing, in-board from the engine nacelles, are two weapon hardpoints. These can be configured to carry short- and medium-range missiles or light and medium bombs. The hardpoints can also mount multiple launch pods loaded with rockets or mini-missiles. Each hardpoint can mount 2,000 pounds (450 kg) of ordnance.
Primary Purpose: blah
Secondary Purpose: blah
Weight: blah
Range: blah
Mega-Damage: blah
Rate of Fire: blah
Payload: blah
Note: blah

You choose to write off everything in italics as mere fluff. It's your game, you can make whatever choice you want, but it's still a choice.

Incidentally, how many hardpoints does the Conbat have? Remember that you aren't allowed to refer to 'fluff' and that the Valkyrie is capable of mounting multiple missiles on a single hardpoint.

[glitterboy2098]

thing is.. everything in italics? that's descriptive text. which is never counted under Rules as Written.
all that stuff you listed as 'blah'? those are the freaking rules.

you don't get a choice when it comes to rules. you follow them

[Of The Funk]

thing is.. everything in italics? that's descriptive text. which is never counted under Rules as Written.
all that stuff you listed as 'blah'? those are the freaking rules.

you don't get a choice when it comes to rules. you follow them

I listed them as 'blah' because Palladium's known for being sort of trigger-happy and I didn't want to get modded.

BTW, could you provide a page number for the part of the book where it says what part of the stat block is rules and which part is fluff you can ignore? It's RAW, so that statement should exist, right?

[eliakon]

thing is.. everything in italics? that's descriptive text. which is never counted under Rules as Written.
all that stuff you listed as 'blah'? those are the freaking rules.

you don't get a choice when it comes to rules. you follow them

I listed them as 'blah' because Palladium's known for being sort of trigger-happy and I didn't want to get modded.

BTW, could you provide a page number for the part of the book where it says what part of the stat block is rules and which part is fluff you can ignore? It's RAW, so that statement should exist, right?

Semantical impossibility. Just like you cant provide a page that says that the description ISNT fluff.

[Of The Funk]

thing is.. everything in italics? that's descriptive text. which is never counted under Rules as Written.
all that stuff you listed as 'blah'? those are the freaking rules.

you don't get a choice when it comes to rules. you follow them

I listed them as 'blah' because Palladium's known for being sort of trigger-happy and I didn't want to get modded.

BTW, could you provide a page number for the part of the book where it says what part of the stat block is rules and which part is fluff you can ignore? It's RAW, so that statement should exist, right?

Semantical impossibility. Just like you cant provide a page that says that the description ISNT fluff.

If it's not written in the rules it isn't Rules-as-Written, then, is it?

[eliakon]

thing is.. everything in italics? that's descriptive text. which is never counted under Rules as Written.
all that stuff you listed as 'blah'? those are the freaking rules.

you don't get a choice when it comes to rules. you follow them

I listed them as 'blah' because Palladium's known for being sort of trigger-happy and I didn't want to get modded.

BTW, could you provide a page number for the part of the book where it says what part of the stat block is rules and which part is fluff you can ignore? It's RAW, so that statement should exist, right?

Semantical impossibility. Just like you cant provide a page that says that the description ISNT fluff.

If it's not written in the rules it isn't Rules-as-Written, then, is it?

Only if your going to play semantics games. Rules as Written means 'what is actually in the book' however, fortunately it does not ONLY mean 'what is in the book' because otherwise gravity is a house rule. The rule book doesn't, in fact say that it is the rule book. So by this argument, then its a house rule that their are rules.....see where this goes? But most people are not playing semantics games (usually known as rules lawyering and grammar nazism) enough to argue stuff like 'but gravity isn't explicitly written in'
This leads us back to my original point. That the rules as written are less than 100% clear on if the list of ordinance or the weight limit trumps the other. There is fully an argument for both (hence this debate).

[Of The Funk]

Only if your going to play semantics games. Rules as Written means 'what is actually in the book' however, fortunately it does not ONLY mean 'what is in the book' because otherwise gravity is a house rule. The rule book doesn't, in fact say that it is the rule book. So by this argument, then its a house rule that their are rules.....see where this goes? But most people are not playing semantics games (usually known as rules lawyering and grammar nazism) enough to argue stuff like 'but gravity isn't explicitly written in'

This is kind of an ironic thing to say because the whole point we're discussing is playing semantic word games to get 'pick from this list' to read as 'pick from this list plus one more thing'. We started crossing the Rubicon a long time ago, I'm just pointing out the water.

This leads us back to my original point. That the rules as written are less than 100% clear on if the list of ordinance or the weight limit trumps the other. There is fully an argument for both (hence this debate).

Well, that's the thing, and that's why I'm going to apologize if my tone has come across as rather sharp. It wasn't initially framed as something up for debate. It was framed as 'here are the rules, obvious to all'. I legitimately have no problem with someone deciding they want to parse the weapon descriptions that way, in their game. It does bug me when someone insists that's the obviously correct way to parse it.

[Zer0 Kay]

but my point with human mecha is things liek the VF-1 (which can carry big anti-ship missiles, and with super-packs, still carry enough anti-mecha firepower to punch through a zent mecha swarm)

In Robotech, the VF-1 is the single most versatile and high-performance mecha humanity ever built... but even then, the series isn't shy about driving home that the Zentradi can fight the VF-1 to a standstill on foot, never mind with mecha. The only reason they lasted at all is because the Zentradi were fighting with the metaphorical kid gloves on.

(In the Macross universes, the VF-1 is considered to have been something of a mediocre fighter for that exact reason... the mistaken assumptions that constrained its size left it vulnerable because of how lightly armed and armored it was.)

the ASC's various fighters (the space ones like the chimera pack fairly heavy munitions loads),

Compared to what? They've only got a handful of conventional missiles.

and things like the UEEF's Beta and the Condor, both of which can carry the same styles of anti-shipping missiles the VF-1 can.

No they can't.

In the show, the Beta is never actually depicted with pylons... and never mind that "reflex warheads" for fighter use are never seen again after the Macross Saga. We never get a good look at the missiles that the Conbat uses, and the RT.com stats decline to identify them as well. The OSM identifies those as just ordinary air-to-air missiles.

In the RPG, neither the Beta nor the Conbat can take long-range missiles at all. Seriously. They top out with medium-range conventional missiles. Only a few Macross Saga designs can even take LRMs.

though to be fair, by the time the Beta becomes common enough to be a factor, going by the show, the UEEF ships have synchrocannons, as does the beta.

For one offensive... after which it's discovered that the systems are all inherently faulty and, in the RPG, are disabled in place or scrapped outright to prevent them from being used to detonate the ships carrying them. The synchro cannons on the larger starships are depicted as being pretty weak compared to the weapons seen on the Zentradi ships and the SDF-1 as well, and the fighter-carried ones never get used.

[ShadowLogan]

e never get a good look at the missiles that the Conbat uses, and the RT.com stats decline to identify them as well

Well the RT.com Infopedia describes the hard points as "4 x fixed hardpoints for various mission-specific heavy ordnance bombs and missiles", so yes it is possible to interpret "heavy ordnance" as applying to missiles, not just bombs. Range is obviously missing, but given the heavier missiles generally come with greater range...

Also please refer to Invasion Comic Series Vol. #1, Yellow leader specifically states "REFLEX MISSILES AWAY!" (~pg11 from the 2038 inner cover page, opposite is a Gundam Battlescared ad from Bandi). So yes by Cannon, Reflex Missiles are in use post TMS.

In the RPG, neither the Beta nor the Conbat can take long-range missiles at all. Seriously. They top out with medium-range conventional missiles. Only a few Macross Saga designs can even take LRMs.

A few points:
A. Taking a megaversal system approach here for the RPG aspect, in the Rifts line they have what are called "Heavy Hitter Missiles" (Rifts Japan pg129, it uses the original missile table in RMB/1E-RT as opposed to the more recent CWC/RUE-revised table that also appears in 2E RT, though I will admit they only use HE-warheads) that mount the next class warhead on a missile for increased stopping power and reduced range. Basically this means that a MRM can be used to carry a LRM-class warhead at reduced range. Unless we view this rule as Rifts specific (and there is no reason we really should), it can be used in RT 1E or RT 2E RPG.
B. There is no reason the UEDF/UEEF could not have developed a Relfex Warhead for "Medium Range" engagements (both inside and outside the RPG) if the long range capacity was under utilized. IE a given missile range class are essentially used to support engagements in the shorter-class ranges, so why not trade LRM capacity for enhanced MRM capacity since the LRM's range in-universe was found to be under utilized and you can generally carry more MRM than LRM.
C. by mass the Conbat can carry LRMs by the rules, but also per the rules it can not use them. Basically this means that the Conbat (and possibly others) is that the Hardpoints are capable of carrying LRM by mass, but are not cleared to use that class ordnance. Example, w/n the RPG we have the HARM-80 that is only cleared to be used on two specific platforms (IINM) and even then restricted to a specific model variant from each even though the missiles by mass can be carried by numerous other platforms across generation lines.
D. I will admit, that while the Conbat and Beta might be able to support objects upto a given mass on a given station, there might not be sufficient volume to fit existing known missiles safely, requiring a custom missile designed to fit on the station. And the RPG has a tendency to assume one-size-fits-all missiles instead of the diversity of shapes the show would support IMHO (just look at the Mini-Missile shapes used on the Cyclone's GR-97, RL-6 and GR-103 launchers)...

[jedi078]

Eh... in the series, human mecha aren't actually all that great. It's only the New Generation where they actually have an advantage over their enemy in performance. In the Macross Saga, they're pretty evenly matched, but humanity's at a disadvantage in the numbers game... a disadvantage that doesn't work against them for the simple reason that the Zentradi aren't trying to kill them. In the Masters Saga, the bioroids pretty thoroughly trounce the Earth forces mecha any time they get serious, and the war only lasts as long as it does because the Masters don't get serious until the very end.

For once I agree with you......any alien race that has been traveling the galaxy for centuries would have more advanced tech then us.

I'm sure someone will argue that "oh the tech level is the same because mankind had the SDF-1". But lets face the facts, the anti-gravity system failed on it's first try and no one know enough about space folding to realize you don't do in within a planetary atmosphere.

About the only ingenuity mankind had with Robotechnology was the veritechs, and I bet quite a few test pilots were killed.....

[Nightmask]

Eh... in the series, human mecha aren't actually all that great. It's only the New Generation where they actually have an advantage over their enemy in performance. In the Macross Saga, they're pretty evenly matched, but humanity's at a disadvantage in the numbers game... a disadvantage that doesn't work against them for the simple reason that the Zentradi aren't trying to kill them. In the Masters Saga, the bioroids pretty thoroughly trounce the Earth forces mecha any time they get serious, and the war only lasts as long as it does because the Masters don't get serious until the very end.

For once I agree with you......any alien race that has been traveling the galaxy for centuries would have more advanced tech then us.

I'm sure someone will argue that "oh the tech level is the same because mankind had the SDF-1". But lets face the facts, the anti-gravity system failed on it's first try and no one know enough about space folding to realize you don't do in within a planetary atmosphere.

About the only ingenuity mankind had with Robotechnology was the veritechs, and I bet quite a few test pilots were killed.....

Eh, there's no reason to think that just because some alien race got into space first or has been there for centuries that it must be more technologically advanced, it could just as easily stagnate for various reasons.

Also as seen in the anime the anti-gravity system didn't so much fail as the generators weren't properly anchored to the ship and simply ripped themselves free. The system itself worked fine it was a failure of the humans in refurbishing it to ensure they were anchored properly that was the problem. It's also just as likely that the originators of the fold system ended up learning the hard way just like humans did you don't fold in a gravity well, since again just because they originated it doesn't mean that they had some kind of superior insight and somehow knew that from the start instead of learning about it from bitter experience.

[jedi078]

Eh, there's no reason to think that just because some alien race got into space first or has been there for centuries that it must be more technologically advanced, it could just as easily stagnate for various reasons.

Going to have to disagree with you there......we don't even have the technology to leave our solar system yet. Any alien race that can cross the galaxy would be so far advanced then us that if they showed up in orbit and wanted to take out mankind there would be absolutely NOTHING we (mankind) would be able to do about it.

Also as seen in the anime the anti-gravity system didn't so much fail as the generators weren't properly anchored to the ship and simply ripped themselves free. The system itself worked fine it was a failure of the humans in refurbishing it to ensure they were anchored properly that was the problem. It's also just as likely that the originators of the fold system ended up learning the hard way just like humans did you don't fold in a gravity well, since again just because they originated it doesn't mean that they had some kind of superior insight and somehow knew that from the start instead of learning about it from bitter experience.

Both are failures that had mankind been a spacefaring race they'd be non-issues.

[Nightmask]

Eh, there's no reason to think that just because some alien race got into space first or has been there for centuries that it must be more technologically advanced, it could just as easily stagnate for various reasons.

Going to have to disagree with you there......we don't even have the technology to leave our solar system yet. Any alien race that can cross the galaxy would be so far advanced then us that if they showed up in orbit and wanted to take out mankind there would be absolutely NOTHING we (mankind) would be able to do about it.

The one has little to nothing to do with the other, many sci-fi stories feature aliens that while they discovered FTL travel didn't have what it takes to be superior to humanity in warfare for one reason or another (such as one setting where FTL travel once discovered leads to total technological stagnation and it's so laughably easy to find that humanity's issues in not discovering it for some reason had them with fighter jets and nuclear weapons being attacked by aliens using little more than muskets).

So no, just because someone could get from Alpha Centauri to here with alacrity does not mean they're going to be unstoppably more powerful than us or that we'd be less than ants in comparison to them.

Also as seen in the anime the anti-gravity system didn't so much fail as the generators weren't properly anchored to the ship and simply ripped themselves free. The system itself worked fine it was a failure of the humans in refurbishing it to ensure they were anchored properly that was the problem. It's also just as likely that the originators of the fold system ended up learning the hard way just like humans did you don't fold in a gravity well, since again just because they originated it doesn't mean that they had some kind of superior insight and somehow knew that from the start instead of learning about it from bitter experience.

Both are failures that had mankind been a spacefaring race they'd be non-issues.

You don't think very highly of humanity it sounds like, that and apparently have some odd notion that somehow once you're 'spacefaring' you somehow become perfect and incapable of fault. Neither of those failures have anything at all to do with humanity not being a space-faring race and the idea that somehow those issues never could have happened with those 'superior' aliens simply unrealistic in the extreme. There is no reason to believe that they just somehow knew while developing fold technology that you don't fold in a gravity well, the aliens in question aren't inherently smarter than humans they just had longer to experiment and work things out and they certainly aren't infallible. The same goes with the engineering failure with the anti-gravity lift systems, they happen and such failures have likely happened with the aliens as well since again they aren't perfect and being space-faring doesn't make anyone perfect or immune to error.

So no, being a space-faring race would not make either of those things non-issues, it does not make you infallible and it does not make you perfect.

[jedi078]

Eh, there's no reason to think that just because some alien race got into space first or has been there for centuries that it must be more technologically advanced, it could just as easily stagnate for various reasons.

Going to have to disagree with you there......we don't even have the technology to leave our solar system yet. Any alien race that can cross the galaxy would be so far advanced then us that if they showed up in orbit and wanted to take out mankind there would be absolutely NOTHING we (mankind) would be able to do about it.

The one has little to nothing to do with the other, many sci-fi stories feature aliens that while they discovered FTL travel didn't have what it takes to be superior to humanity in warfare for one reason or another (such as one setting where FTL travel once discovered leads to total technological stagnation and it's so laughably easy to find that humanity's issues in not discovering it for some reason had them with fighter jets and nuclear weapons being attacked by aliens using little more than muskets).

So no, just because someone could get from Alpha Centauri to here with alacrity does not mean they're going to be unstoppably more powerful than us or that we'd be less than ants in comparison to them.

Also as seen in the anime the anti-gravity system didn't so much fail as the generators weren't properly anchored to the ship and simply ripped themselves free. The system itself worked fine it was a failure of the humans in refurbishing it to ensure they were anchored properly that was the problem. It's also just as likely that the originators of the fold system ended up learning the hard way just like humans did you don't fold in a gravity well, since again just because they originated it doesn't mean that they had some kind of superior insight and somehow knew that from the start instead of learning about it from bitter experience.

Both are failures that had mankind been a spacefaring race they'd be non-issues.

You don't think very highly of humanity it sounds like, that and apparently have some odd notion that somehow once you're 'spacefaring' you somehow become perfect and incapable of fault. Neither of those failures have anything at all to do with humanity not being a space-faring race and the idea that somehow those issues never could have happened with those 'superior' aliens simply unrealistic in the extreme. There is no reason to believe that they just somehow knew while developing fold technology that you don't fold in a gravity well, the aliens in question aren't inherently smarter than humans they just had longer to experiment and work things out and they certainly aren't infallible. The same goes with the engineering failure with the anti-gravity lift systems, they happen and such failures have likely happened with the aliens as well since again they aren't perfect and being space-faring doesn't make anyone perfect or immune to error.

So no, being a space-faring race would not make either of those things non-issues, it does not make you infallible and it does not make you perfect.

I guess I have a better grasp of reality then you do....

Warning: Insulting another poster.

[eliakon]

Advanced tech does not mean 'god like'
Please take a look at what the canon tech level needed for interstellar travel in the Robotech universe.
THAT is the baseline for a 'star faring civilization'
And as far as I can tell the threshold is "has an FTL drive" Of course a race that develops that drive on its own is going to know more about the proper use of it than someone who gets it second hand....but that doesn't mean that they are per-se smarter, just wiser (more experienced).

[Nightmask]

Eh, there's no reason to think that just because some alien race got into space first or has been there for centuries that it must be more technologically advanced, it could just as easily stagnate for various reasons.

Going to have to disagree with you there......we don't even have the technology to leave our solar system yet. Any alien race that can cross the galaxy would be so far advanced then us that if they showed up in orbit and wanted to take out mankind there would be absolutely NOTHING we (mankind) would be able to do about it.

The one has little to nothing to do with the other, many sci-fi stories feature aliens that while they discovered FTL travel didn't have what it takes to be superior to humanity in warfare for one reason or another (such as one setting where FTL travel once discovered leads to total technological stagnation and it's so laughably easy to find that humanity's issues in not discovering it for some reason had them with fighter jets and nuclear weapons being attacked by aliens using little more than muskets).

So no, just because someone could get from Alpha Centauri to here with alacrity does not mean they're going to be unstoppably more powerful than us or that we'd be less than ants in comparison to them.

Also as seen in the anime the anti-gravity system didn't so much fail as the generators weren't properly anchored to the ship and simply ripped themselves free. The system itself worked fine it was a failure of the humans in refurbishing it to ensure they were anchored properly that was the problem. It's also just as likely that the originators of the fold system ended up learning the hard way just like humans did you don't fold in a gravity well, since again just because they originated it doesn't mean that they had some kind of superior insight and somehow knew that from the start instead of learning about it from bitter experience.

Both are failures that had mankind been a spacefaring race they'd be non-issues.

You don't think very highly of humanity it sounds like, that and apparently have some odd notion that somehow once you're 'spacefaring' you somehow become perfect and incapable of fault. Neither of those failures have anything at all to do with humanity not being a space-faring race and the idea that somehow those issues never could have happened with those 'superior' aliens simply unrealistic in the extreme. There is no reason to believe that they just somehow knew while developing fold technology that you don't fold in a gravity well, the aliens in question aren't inherently smarter than humans they just had longer to experiment and work things out and they certainly aren't infallible. The same goes with the engineering failure with the anti-gravity lift systems, they happen and such failures have likely happened with the aliens as well since again they aren't perfect and being space-faring doesn't make anyone perfect or immune to error.

So no, being a space-faring race would not make either of those things non-issues, it does not make you infallible and it does not make you perfect.

I guess I have a better grasp of reality then you do....

My grasp of reality is just fine thanks, that's why I know space-faring does not equal unbeatable or infallible.

[Nightmask]

Advanced tech does not mean 'god like'
Please take a look at what the canon tech level needed for interstellar travel in the Robotech universe.
THAT is the baseline for a 'star faring civilization'
And as far as I can tell the threshold is "has an FTL drive" Of course a race that develops that drive on its own is going to know more about the proper use of it than someone who gets it second hand....but that doesn't mean that they are per-se smarter, just wiser (more experienced).

Exactly, and at least some of that wisdom came the same way it comes to us, through trial and error and fluke discoveries. If we happened across a workable space drive and got it working in the next decade it wouldn't magically cause our technology to just *poof* advance centuries or make us suddenly unbeatable to another alien race because we were able reach that level first that requires advancement in a range of other fields that isn't a given. We'd try an idea out and realize from the disaster after that it wasn't a good idea after all (such as some excellent airplane designs that crashed and burned initially because no human being can keep up with the corrective actions required, until the development of technology to automatically handle the adjustments).

Anyone developing the fold drives since they likely developed them on a planet's surface likely had a lab accident at that critical moment to learn from and finished developing them in space. Same with the anti-gravity system that rips out of the SDF-1, anyone can miscalculate and end up where the humans did in that event.

[Tim Wing]

Jumping in kinda late here... and, full disclosure, I did not read EVERY single post in this argument.... Also, my comments are from a strictly "show" point of view and include no references to the RPG.

From what we see in Robotech: the Macross saga, earth forces have only one advantage against the Zentraedi (to quote Exedore and Breetai):

"We know they have..."

"Reflex weaponry!"

"Preciesly, and that make them VERY dangerous."

This mirrors the original Macross series, in that the Zentraedi had lost their "reaction" weaponry satellite, and no longer had such weapons. (Reaction Weapons were a euphemism for nuclear weapons. In Japan, it was taboo to mention nuclear weapons, so the creators of Macross called them reaction weapons instead. In effect, they were the same thing, or at least were of similar destructive power... or at least so I understand.)

In Robotech, reflex was substituted for reaction. I think its a fair assumption that reflex missiles were nuclear missiles of some type... or at least of similar destructive power. So, anti-spaceship reflex missiles were the earths primary defense against the Zentraedi.

Now, we don't see any such thing in the Southern Cross. But this could be because the Master's force fields and point defense systems provided effective defense against anti-ship missiles. Either by destroying the missiles before they could detonate, or by being able to absorb the damage that the reflex/nuclear explosion could inflict. I the UEDF/Southern Cross figured this out (perhaps after the an early engagement, which we conveniently don't see, or from intelligence analysis of the Master's ships) they would not bother mounting any on any of their fighters.

At this point, we can skip any argument that only long range missiles can carry a nuclear warhead. You can easily mount a nuclear warhead on pretty much anything. See the link below for a perfect, real world example... from the fifties.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davy_Crock ... _device%29

So, the Logan for example, as per Harmony Gold, can carry medium range missiles: "2 x 1 hardpoints (1 rail per forearm/wing root) each capable of mounting (must be expended/ejected before transforming): 1 x 275mm medium range missile." They do not disclose what kind of warhead the missile carries. It could be HEAT, expanding rod, nuclear, who knows. Now, we never SEE any nuclear medium rnage missiles used in the series... but that just means they never fired them. For reasons discussed above.

Point is, IMHO, the UEDF was still relying on nukes for their anti-spaceship capabilities. But nukes didn't do the job against the Masters. So the Southern Cross didn't bother using them. And they were, there-fore, up **** creek.

Now, what about the REF/UEEF?

According to Harmony Gold, the Conbat chad: "4 x fixed hardpoints for various mission-specific heavy ordnance bombs and missiles." and the Beta had, in addition to lots of short range missiles: "1 x bomb bay capable of holding 4 metric tons of ordnance, the size limited by the bay doors. 3 x hardpoints on each wing capable of carrying long-range missiles or multiple ejection launchers. However, all of the ordnance must be ejected before the Beta can go to Battloid mode."

Once again, no mention of warhead type.

And, once again, we don't see nukes used. But there is no good reason why they wouldn't. Sure, Invid ships were not that great of a threat, and could likely be dispatched with the main cannons on the early Garfish-class, never mind the even bigger guns on the ships that followed... But why wouldn't you use nukes against the swarms of Invid mecha? It would be the perfect weapon against such an attack! But we don't see it happening.

This would mean that either:

a) Nukes were not used by the UEEF (unlikely)
b) The UEEF still used nukes, but had run out of them (still pretty unlikely I think)
c) The UEEF maintained nukes as their primary anti-spaceship weapon, but because of the small size of the Invid ships, they stopped loading them on fighters. The fighters were tasked instead with anti-mecha duty. But the UEEF was unprepared for the shear numbers of Invid mecha over Earth, otherwise they would have put them on their fighters! (Somewhat likely... but it only works for the first reclamation mission... all other missions afterwards would know what to expect.)
d) ...um... I've got nothing.

So, yeah, the point here is that I have no good answer.

[ShadowLogan]

In Robotech, reflex was substituted for reaction. I think its a fair assumption that reflex missiles were nuclear missiles of some type... or at least of similar destructive power. So, anti-spaceship reflex missiles were the earths primary defense against the Zentraedi.

Actually given that Protoculture is supposed to have higher energy density than conventional nuclear sources it stands to reason that Reflex Warheads could be potentially more destructive than nuclear, at least at a 1:1 fuel mass comparison.

Now, we don't see any such thing in the Southern Cross. But this could be because the Master's force fields and point defense systems provided effective defense against anti-ship missiles. Either by destroying the missiles before they could detonate, or by being able to absorb the damage that the reflex/nuclear explosion could inflict. I the UEDF/Southern Cross figured this out (perhaps after the an early engagement, which we conveniently don't see, or from intelligence analysis of the Master's ships) they would not bother mounting any on any of their fighters.

No, ASC is able to strike at the ships early on with missiles. Kommodo's unauthorized launch did have at least one missile get through their point defenses and there was no shield (ASC reported "heavy damage", but nothing visible is shown) in "False Start". Even the ASC's Sylphid missile strikes in "Southern Cross" managed to impact, but do no apparent damage. It wasn't until late in the series though that we are shown missiles impacting the hull of the Cityship and doing considerable damage. Theoretically the missiles should have been capable of evading the force fields and point defense cannons (if a lumbering slow shuttle can do it to air-drop the 15th in, then a missile should also, then you have "Volunteers" with its shuttle, and Emerson rammed the flagship with his Tri-star).

At this point, we can skip any argument that only long range missiles can carry a nuclear warhead. You can easily mount a nuclear warhead on pretty much anything. See the link below for a perfect, real world example... from the fifties.

I agree with this sentiment. However while you may be able to make it smaller, but you also potentially can lose yield in doing so limiting the effectiveness of the "smaller" munition.

Point is, IMHO, the UEDF was still relying on nukes for their anti-spaceship capabilities. But nukes didn't do the job against the Masters. So the Southern Cross didn't bother using them. And they were, there-fore, up **** creek.

You are correct that the ASC isn't reported to use Reflex Weapons, but they are said to use Hyper-Cobalt Rockets, though just what they are supposed to be is highly debatable since real life cobalt bombs are nuclear weapons with enhanced radiation effects (something that I think the UEDF/UEEF would want to avoid). And Bernard's group did have Cobalt Grenades (IIRC, I know they where a type of cobalt explosive device) and again Radiation doesn't seem to be a factor, so whatever RT's version of Cobalt Explosives are they are seen in at least two drastically dissimilar sized roles (missile vs grenade).

This would mean that either:

a) Nukes were not used by the UEEF (unlikely)
b) The UEEF still used nukes, but had run out of them (still pretty unlikely I think)
c) The UEEF maintained nukes as their primary anti-spaceship weapon, but because of the small size of the Invid ships, they stopped loading them on fighters. The fighters were tasked instead with anti-mecha duty. But the UEEF was unprepared for the shear numbers of Invid mecha over Earth, otherwise they would have put them on their fighters! (Somewhat likely... but it only works for the first reclamation mission... all other missions afterwards would know what to expect.)
d) ...um... I've got nothing.

At least in canon, the Conbat did fire off Reflex Missiles in the canon Invasion Comic w/the 10th MD (Lancer's group). I know its not the show, but it is part of Yune's canon version of RT. So if we treat Reflex as covering "nukes" A is out. B is possible, but I don't see why they would loose the ability to produce more what with the Factory Satellites the UEEF is supposed to have captured. C, appears unlikely given the Invasion Comic series. PC shortage for the UEEF is possible, but there is no indication in the show of such a situation for the UEEF until Yune's TSC. The really leaves something like these IMHO:
E. Cost effectiveness for the UEEF may also play a hand here in dealing with Invid Swarm tactics. Even the UEDF in TMS saga didn't use Reflex Warheads on the VF-1 to soften up the Zentreadi mecha hordes (even the SDF-1 main gun wasn't used for this primarily, getting it from secondary bonus from blasts directed at ships IIRC). So clearly we have to consider if such an attack on mecha hordes is as effective overall (considering other aspects not just "yeah we took out a bunch of XYZ-ers") as it sounds.
F. Invid adaptability may also have played a role here. How long before the Invid adapt to the tactic and develop a counter to the tactic to make it less effective? Per Invasion Comic the Invid are known to have been rapidly evolving from first contact with the UEEF.

[Zer0 Kay]

but my point with human mecha is things liek the VF-1 (which can carry big anti-ship missiles, and with super-packs, still carry enough anti-mecha firepower to punch through a zent mecha swarm)

In Robotech, the VF-1 is the single most versatile and high-performance mecha humanity ever built... but even then, the series isn't shy about driving home that the Zentradi can fight the VF-1 to a standstill on foot, never mind with mecha. The only reason they lasted at all is because the Zentradi were fighting with the metaphorical kid gloves on.

(In the Macross universes, the VF-1 is considered to have been something of a mediocre fighter for that exact reason... the mistaken assumptions that constrained its size left it vulnerable because of how lightly armed and armored it was.)

the ASC's various fighters (the space ones like the chimera pack fairly heavy munitions loads),

Compared to what? They've only got a handful of conventional missiles.

and things like the UEEF's Beta and the Condor, both of which can carry the same styles of anti-shipping missiles the VF-1 can.

No they can't.

In the show, the Beta is never actually depicted with pylons... and never mind that "reflex warheads" for fighter use are never seen again after the Macross Saga. We never get a good look at the missiles that the Conbat uses, and the RT.com stats decline to identify them as well. The OSM identifies those as just ordinary air-to-air missiles.

In the RPG, neither the Beta nor the Conbat can take long-range missiles at all. Seriously. They top out with medium-range conventional missiles. Only a few Macross Saga designs can even take LRMs.

though to be fair, by the time the Beta becomes common enough to be a factor, going by the show, the UEEF ships have synchrocannons, as does the beta.

For one offensive... after which it's discovered that the systems are all inherently faulty and, in the RPG, are disabled in place or scrapped outright to prevent them from being used to detonate the ships carrying them. The synchro cannons on the larger starships are depicted as being pretty weak compared to the weapons seen on the Zentradi ships and the SDF-1 as well, and the fighter-carried ones never get used.

Edit (this was mixed in with the post): Maybe he is thinking of RT1E where they misidentified the thruster link for the Alpha to the Beta as LRMs.

[Arnie100]

They have used destroids as point-defense weapons on the SDF-1, IIRC.

[eliakon]

Can LRMs be carried in the various Bomb Bays and dropped (like real world cruise missiles?)

[ShadowLogan]

Can LRMs be carried in the various Bomb Bays and dropped (like real world cruise missiles?)

I would have to say: it depends.
1st if the bomb bay can support objects of said mass. This is pretty easily to answer by the RPG descriptions as they usually include some idea of the maximum load (and the generic C&P approach to weights of the bomb/missile).
2nd we have to consider the available volume. And this is where you can run into a headache. We really don't know. Now they could have custom missiles built for the specific platform/location.
3rd issue, even if the #1&2 allow for the bomb bay to carry the weapon by mass and volume, but it is still possible they may not be able to use it properly because they lack software/hardware related to proper use.

[Zer0 Kay]

Can LRMs be carried in the various Bomb Bays and dropped (like real world cruise missiles?)

I would have to say: it depends.
1st if the bomb bay can support objects of said mass. This is pretty easily to answer by the RPG descriptions as they usually include some idea of the maximum load (and the generic C&P approach to weights of the bomb/missile).
2nd we have to consider the available volume. And this is where you can run into a headache. We really don't know. Now they could have custom missiles built for the specific platform/location.
3rd issue, even if the #1&2 allow for the bomb bay to carry the weapon by mass and volume, but it is still possible they may not be able to use it properly because they lack software/hardware related to proper use.

3: A cruise missiles target isn't normally programmed by the aircrew.

[ShadowLogan]

Can LRMs be carried in the various Bomb Bays and dropped (like real world cruise missiles?)

I would have to say: it depends.
1st if the bomb bay can support objects of said mass. This is pretty easily to answer by the RPG descriptions as they usually include some idea of the maximum load (and the generic C&P approach to weights of the bomb/missile).
2nd we have to consider the available volume. And this is where you can run into a headache. We really don't know. Now they could have custom missiles built for the specific platform/location.
3rd issue, even if the #1&2 allow for the bomb bay to carry the weapon by mass and volume, but it is still possible they may not be able to use it properly because they lack software/hardware related to proper use.

3: A cruise missiles target isn't normally programmed by the aircrew.

True, but in real life not all aircraft are cleared to use or even capable of using all weapons either due to software or hardware.

[Zer0 Kay]

Can LRMs be carried in the various Bomb Bays and dropped (like real world cruise missiles?)

I would have to say: it depends.
1st if the bomb bay can support objects of said mass. This is pretty easily to answer by the RPG descriptions as they usually include some idea of the maximum load (and the generic C&P approach to weights of the bomb/missile).
2nd we have to consider the available volume. And this is where you can run into a headache. We really don't know. Now they could have custom missiles built for the specific platform/location.
3rd issue, even if the #1&2 allow for the bomb bay to carry the weapon by mass and volume, but it is still possible they may not be able to use it properly because they lack software/hardware related to proper use.

3: A cruise missiles target isn't normally programmed by the aircrew.

True, but in real life not all aircraft are cleared to use or even capable of using all weapons either due to software or hardware.

cruise missiles only... I should specify. OUR current cruise missiles only require hardware which is apparently easily retrofited into airframes. They've installed rotary racks in B-52 to support their launch. To me that was far scarrier when they were nuke capable instead of a few nuke bombs. Scared for foe not us.

[ShadowLogan]

Well yes you can retrofit a platform to carry new types of weapons, and you should be able to do the same thing with mecha. The point though is that said update has yet to take place canonically speaking in RT.

[eliakon]

Well yes you can retrofit a platform to carry new types of weapons, and you should be able to do the same thing with mecha. The point though is that said update has yet to take place canonically speaking in RT.

THAT is my question though. Is it an update?
Most of the bomb bays say something along the lines of "any sort of ordinances up to X weight". So...is that "an sort of ordinance as long as its bombs." or "Any sort of ordinance, including missiles, drones, launch packs, space mines and the like"

[ShadowLogan]

Well yes you can retrofit a platform to carry new types of weapons, and you should be able to do the same thing with mecha. The point though is that said update has yet to take place canonically speaking in RT.

THAT is my question though. Is it an update?
Most of the bomb bays say something along the lines of "any sort of ordinances up to X weight". So...is that "an sort of ordinance as long as its bombs." or "Any sort of ordinance, including missiles, drones, launch packs, space mines and the like"

I would lump bombs and space mines together. But by RAW, it does appear to only reference bombs. That doesn't mean a GM can't allow other materials to be transported (using it as a cargo/passenger bay instead of bomb bay, as the VBF-9 Beta is shown to do in Ep83), but they can't be used unless they also allow for additional hardware/software updates to have occurred that are outside of RAW.