What's this symbol?

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Sgt Anjay
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What's this symbol?

Unread post by Sgt Anjay »

Simple enough, this thing shows up on destroids, there anything concrete on what it signifies?
destroid symbol
destroid symbol with some text

Also, there's this symbol on the destroyed destroid (heh) that shows up in episode 31.
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Re: What's this symbol?

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

i would guess some sort of Unit insignia.
like how the real world 11th ACR has the black horse on grey and red as a shoulder patch, and the coat of arms with black horsehead as a distinctive unit logo.
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Re: What's this symbol?

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

Sgt Anjay wrote:Simple enough, this thing shows up on destroids, there anything concrete on what it signifies?

Sure is! As the caption indicates, that particular mark indicates the Destroid in question is one of the units stationed aboard the assault lander Daedalus. It's visible on the drive trains of all four of the major models of Destroid in the original Macross series and DYRL.

EDIT: I believe the reason it never appears on the three Monster destroids aboard the Macross is the three units were canonically assigned to the Macross herself, rather than the Daedalus.
EDIT 2: SPELLING.
Last edited by Seto Kaiba on Sun Nov 23, 2014 5:29 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: What's this symbol?

Unread post by taalismn »

It's the symbol of the Dinochrome Brigade's toddler cousins. :D
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For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
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Re: What's this symbol?

Unread post by Sgt Anjay »

Ah, so it is basically a unit insignia.
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Re: What's this symbol?

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

Sgt Anjay wrote:Ah, so it is basically a unit insignia.

Sort of... it's the service badge for a particular ship, shared by all of the units that serve on that particular ship. You can find equivalent badges for modern ships on their Wikipedia entries, and the SDF-1 Macross's was visible in the show on the floor of Global/Gloval's quarters, among other places. I think it was also in the background during his "we've been exiled from Earth" speech too.

As far as I am aware, Destroid batteries in the original Macross don't seem to have gotten any actual unit insignia the way Valkyrie squadrons did... but the old Macross Model Hobby Handbook had some samples of nose-art style decorations for individual destroids.
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Re: What's this symbol?

Unread post by taalismn »

Seto Kaiba wrote:[... but the old Macross Model Hobby Handbook had some samples of nose-art style decorations for individual destroids.


Cheesecake. Though to be updated, with women serving in combat roles, there'd have to be beefcake art as well.
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

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Re: What's this symbol?

Unread post by Tim Wing »

The third one would most likely be a unit insignia as well, though for a US Army unit (leg of the Tomahawk on which this appears say US Army). Of course, there is no real world Division within the US Army that has a patch similar to this... nor for US Army Regiments, armor or other wise (at least, not that I know of... and I've been in the US Army for fifteen years. #FML.)

I'm going to check Wikipedia for regimental crests....
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Tim Wing
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Re: What's this symbol?

Unread post by Tim Wing »

US Armor Regiments

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coats_of_a ... _Regiments

US Infantry Regiments

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coats_of_a ... _Regiments

US Army Divisional Patches

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_i ... tates_Army

Notably, the pick is a traditional symbol of the Army Corps of Engineers... but no luck here either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coats_of_a ... Battalions

I would hazard the guess that the symbol was for a newly constituted "Destroid Regiment".
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Re: What's this symbol?

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

taalismn wrote:
Seto Kaiba wrote:[... but the old Macross Model Hobby Handbook had some samples of nose-art style decorations for individual destroids.


Cheesecake. Though to be updated, with women serving in combat roles, there'd have to be beefcake art as well.

Cheesecake it most certainly is, though I'm not sure that having women on the battlefield would mean the presence of beefcake... I think the female pilots in Macross are a bit classier than that, but also the one later example we have of it is Canaria's Konig Monster, which has a similar cheesecake selection for its nose art. :-?



Tim Wing wrote:The third one would most likely be a unit insignia as well, though for a US Army unit (leg of the Tomahawk on which this appears say US Army). [...]
I'm going to check Wikipedia for regimental crests....

There's a very good reason you won't find that among US Army (or any army's) regimental crests... that isn't a unit insignia, based on its positioning on the Tomahawk chassis.

It's an "affiliation mark" (literally what's written in Japanese).

Like the gold triangle with the D and crossed torch and hammer, that marking identifies the ship or base that particular Destroid is assigned to. In this case, since the Tomahawk in question bears markings for the annihilated US Army, its affiliation markings are probably those of a base that was destroyed during the Zentradi Army's orbital bombardment.

The Destroid's actual unit markings are further up the torso. According to the animation model sheet for the Tomahawk Mk.VI, that "D7" just above the waist and on the upper back identifies that the Tomahawk belongs to D-7 Platoon (presumably D Battery, 7th Platoon). If I had to hazard a guess about the rest of the markings based on Macross's habit of borrowing from US Forces markings and organization, it's looking like the Tomahawk exemplar in the line art is from an unspecified Armored Division, 3rd Armored Regiment, D Battery, 7th Platoon (Unit No.14).


The Δ3Δ on the upper back would be ? Armored Division, 3rd Armored Regiment. The D7 on the front is explicitly identified as its specific unit affiliation (D-7 platoon, probably meaning D Battery, 7th Platoon), and the 14 in a diamond under the face and on the back of the pelvis is probably the individual vehicle's number.
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Re: What's this symbol?

Unread post by Tim Wing »

Like the gold triangle with the D and crossed torch and hammer, that marking identifies the ship or base that particular Destroid is assigned to. In this case, since the Tomahawk in question bears markings for the annihilated US Army, its affiliation markings are probably those of a base that was destroyed during the Zentradi Army's orbital bombardment.


Not exactly. "affiliation mark" would mean "unit affiliation", not a base affiliation. In the US Army, there is no affiliation for a unit by base, unlike the USAF, which will mark airplanes with a two letter code on the tail to signify where the plane is flying out of.

Normally in the US Army, we do not paint our division or regimental crest on our vehicles. Typically, they won't allow us to paint anything on our vehicles. Time change of course... the point is, the symbol on the US Army Destroid could be anything, since it falls outside the norm of current US Army vehicle marking SOP.

The numbers on the US Army Destroid are easier to decipher though.

D23 (on the chest) - This is the "bumper number" for Delta Company, 2nd platoon, vehicle three
511 (on missile pod) - This is the "bumper number" for 5th Battalion, 11th Infantry Regiment (or 5th Squadron, 11th Cavalry Regiment "Black Horse"). FYI, there is no 11th Armor Regiment in the US Army... but then again, there are no Detroids either! lol. It could also be 511th Infantry, Armor or Cavalry Regiment for that mater...

Here's the TM, if you want to get REALLY nerdy!

http://www.dmkf.dk/Filer_manualer/Camo/ ... arking.pdf

As for the US Spacy markings, what each numbers means would be mostly speculation. I will say that there sure are allot of numbers on that mech though!

D7 - a letter usually means the Company, so Delta Company in this case. 7 could be 7th platoon, though there are never that many platoons in an Armor Company... in the US Army at least. UN Spacy, who knows...
Δ3Δ - a triangle stands for "Armored Division" in US Army speak, so 3rd Armor Division?
<14> - no idea
D-21019 - looks like the serial number
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Re: What's this symbol?

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

Tim Wing wrote:Not exactly. "affiliation mark" would mean "unit affiliation", not a base affiliation.

Nope!

As I pointed out in my first reply, that position on the Destroid chassis is used for the base/ship affiliation markings according to the notes on the production line art. The golden triangle with the "D" and crossed hammer and torch denotes Destroid units assigned to the SLV-111 Daedalus. We're told that much explicitly. They even wrote it in something approaching good English (though the Studio Nue staff's grasp of English has always been pretty respectable).


Tim Wing wrote:[...] the point is, the symbol on the US Army Destroid could be anything, since it falls outside the norm of current US Army vehicle marking SOP.

Per the above, the point is that we know EXACTLY what the markings in that location are used for because the people who created this show quite thoughtfully documented it. That insignia is the marking of a base or ship that the Destroid is assigned to.


Tim Wing wrote:D23 (on the chest) - This is the "bumper number" for Delta Company, 2nd platoon, vehicle three

Eh... close, but no cigar my friend. Per the notes in the production line art, that position is used to mark only the Destroid's platoon assignment. That marking would be read "D-23 Platoon", according to what's written in the line art. As the OSM also organizes Destroids into Batteries rather than Companies, that'd identify it as belonging to D Battery, 23rd Platoon.


Tim Wing wrote:511 (on missile pod) - This is the "bumper number" for 5th Battalion, 11th Infantry Regiment (or 5th Squadron, 11th Cavalry Regiment "Black Horse").

Also incorrect. Look at the line art... that's the second half of its six-digit registration number. The first three digits and the leading letter D are printed on the right shoulder, the last three digits are printed on the left shoulder, and the whole sequence is repeated on the left leg just above the ankle. The example unit in the production line art is D-210194... D-210 is on the right, 194 is on the left. This convention is common to all Series 04 and 07 destroids except the Phalanx (for the obvious reason, though it retained the full registration number on the ankle).


Tim Wing wrote:D7 - a letter usually means the Company, so Delta Company in this case. 7 could be 7th platoon, though there are never that many platoons in an Armor Company... in the US Army at least. UN Spacy, who knows...
Δ3Δ - a triangle stands for "Armored Division" in US Army speak, so 3rd Armor Division?
<14> - no idea
D-21019 - looks like the serial number

According to AR 850-5, the there are two different uses of Δ in bumper codes. The elements of a correct bumper code are scattered around the body in separate places instead of in one place, however. The first Δ is Armored Division, the second Δ is Armored Regiment.

So, if we were to try and assemble a correct bumper code for that Destroid from its markings, it ought to be ?Δ3ΔD14... ? Armored Division, 3rd Armored Regiment, D Battery, 14th vehicle.
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Re: What's this symbol?

Unread post by Tim Wing »

As I pointed out in my first reply, that position on the Destroid chassis is used for the base/ship affiliation markings according to the notes on the production line art. The golden triangle with the "D" and crossed hammer and torch denotes Destroid units assigned to the SLV-111 Daedalus. We're told that much explicitly. They even wrote it in something approaching good English (though the Studio Nue staff's grasp of English has always been pretty respectable).


Not disputing that. I'm talking about the symbol on the US Army Destroid.
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Re: What's this symbol?

Unread post by Tim Wing »

Per the above, the point is that we know EXACTLY what the markings in that location are used for because the people who created this show quite thoughtfully documented it. That insignia is the marking of a base or ship that the Destroid is assigned to.


The US Army has ship in the future? Sweet!

But seriously, the mark in that location on a "UN Spacy" Destroid would be for ship affiliation... but not necessarily on a US Army Destroid. Different military organizations, different marking conventions.
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Re: What's this symbol?

Unread post by Tim Wing »

Eh... close, but no cigar my friend. Per the notes in the production line art, that position is used to mark only the Destroid's platoon assignment. That marking would be read "D-23 Platoon", according to what's written in the line art. As the OSM also organizes Destroids into Batteries rather than Companies, that'd identify it as belonging to D Battery, 23rd Platoon.


I thought the line art only addressed the UN Spacy units... Am I wrong here?
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Re: What's this symbol?

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

Tim Wing wrote:But seriously, the mark in that location on a "UN Spacy" Destroid would be for ship affiliation... but not necessarily on a US Army Destroid. Different military organizations, different marking conventions.

*sigh* Ship or base affiliation... the US Army has bases, yes?


Tim Wing wrote:I thought the line art only addressed the UN Spacy units... Am I wrong here?

The line art addresses the MBR-04-Mk.VI Tomahawk Destroid... there is nothing there that I can find that would suggest or indicate that the marking scheme applies only to units operated by the UN Spacy. The wrecked Tomahawk Mk.VI in Ep31 follows all of the standard marking conventions (on the bits that we're able to see, anyway).
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Re: What's this symbol?

Unread post by Tim Wing »

*sigh* Ship or base affiliation... the US Army has bases, yes?


Yep, but we don't have markings on our vehicles to say what base the vehicle is from.

It's like this: Both the US Army and the Australian Army have M1 tanks. But the way in which we mark said tanks is different.

http://www.airforce-technology.com/proj ... e-tank.jpg

http://d35brb9zkkbdsd.cloudfront.net/wp ... 703768.jpg
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Re: What's this symbol?

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

Tim Wing wrote:Yep, but we don't have markings on our vehicles to say what base the vehicle is from.

All I can tell you there is that apparently that changed somewhere along the way in the Macross and Robotech setting. The production line art for the MBR-04-Mk.VI Tomahawk clearly indicates that the area in question is used for affiliation markings to show where the destroid is stationed. (This convention could have been forced on them by the new supranational government and its military forces, who took a LOT of organizational pointers from the US military and Japanese self-defense forces... and the JGSDF IS partial to the habit of putting such identifying markings on their tanks... and the US was one of the main founding members of the UN Government.)

EDIT: When I get home, I will hopefully be able to locate the line art for the affiliation mark in question and identify exactly what base it represents.
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Re: What's this symbol?

Unread post by Sgt Anjay »

Or we just ignore a marking system cobbled together by the OSM's animators and targeted to make sense to the Japanese and use one that actually makes sense and is realistic to the U.S. Army when dealing with a vehicle marked "U.S. Army".

Don't see the problem, and I'm the one who asked what the intent of the markings were in the first place.
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Re: What's this symbol?

Unread post by taalismn »

Seto Kaiba wrote:[

Cheesecake it most certainly is, though I'm not sure that having women on the battlefield would mean the presence of beefcake... I think the female pilots in Macross are a bit classier than that, but also the one later example we have of it is Canaria's Konig Monster, which has a similar cheesecake selection for its nose art. :-?


Perhaps because ships of any sort have traditionally been referred to in the feminine?

Still, I can see some female destroid-jockey going into combat with some painting straight out of the costume design design book for 'Miracle Mike' sporting a name like 'Bad Boy', adorning its hull. Though the traditional go-along with that name would probably be a dominatrix bending a riding crop(nightmare fuel for Zentraedi just discovering sex). :P
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

--------Rudyard Kipling
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Re: What's this symbol?

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

Unfortunately, the closest I've been able to come to a definitive identification of the second crest is that it's the badge belonging to a Joint Forces base in Alaska... likely somewhere west of Grand Cannon 1.


Sgt Anjay wrote:Or we just ignore a marking system cobbled together by the OSM's animators and targeted to make sense to the Japanese and use one that actually makes sense and is realistic to the U.S. Army when dealing with a vehicle marked "U.S. Army".

*scratches his head*

Eh? I'm genuinely sorry if I've given you a mistaken impression... the markings may be spread out, but they're almost entirely based on real US Army armored vehicle markings. The only real deviations were the inclusion of the platoon number in the organizational markings and the affiliation badge to identify its base of origin. Combine the markings and you get a mostly-complete, properly-formatted bumper code identifying the Armored Regiment, Battery, and vehicle number. It's not a 100% faithful copy of the US markings, but it's pretty close... much like the squadron and fighter designations that were also largely copied from the US military's practices.

The Robotech timeline may, after all, have branches from ours as early as the mid-1950s... and the US's involvement with the "United Earth Government" may also have had an influence on the markings of robotechnology-based fighting vehicles. (If you're going to be inter-operating with, or even subordinate to, an international military, why not make sure your markings are consistent?)


Sgt Anjay wrote:Don't see the problem, and I'm the one who asked what the intent of the markings were in the first place.

Forgive my asking, but if you did not want an actual, official and accurate answer to your inquiry about the markings... what DID you want?




taalismn wrote:Still, I can see some female destroid-jockey going into combat with some painting straight out of the costume design design book for 'Miracle Mike' sporting a name like 'Bad Boy', adorning its hull. Though the traditional go-along with that name would probably be a dominatrix bending a riding crop(nightmare fuel for Zentraedi just discovering sex). :P

...
...
...
Something to use the Sentinels swimsuit spectacular for? :lol: :nuke: :puke:
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Re: What's this symbol?

Unread post by taalismn »

Seto Kaiba wrote:[
Something to use the Sentinels swimsuit spectacular for? :lol: :nuke: :puke:


Wouldn't start worrying(or puking) until you see a mecha with a depiction of Exedore in a Speedo on it.
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

--------Rudyard Kipling
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Re: What's this symbol?

Unread post by SRoss »

taalismn wrote:
Seto Kaiba wrote:[
Something to use the Sentinels swimsuit spectacular for? :lol: :nuke: :puke:


Wouldn't start worrying(or puking) until you see a mecha with a depiction of Exedore in a Speedo on it.


Two thongs don't make a right. :nh:
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Re: What's this symbol?

Unread post by Sgt Anjay »

Seto Kaiba wrote:Eh? I'm genuinely sorry if I've given you a mistaken impression
You haven't given me an impression, I am in fact intimately familiar with U.S. Army vehicle markings, and the system from the OSM doesn't jibe with me any more than Tim Wing. It is odd-to-downright bizarre having U.S. Army vehicles with a "base patch". The way the unit is scattered about the vehicle isn't especially egregious, but hearing 7th Platoon...let alone 23? Is that right? I can't even look at that without it taking me right out of suspension of disbelief.

A 23rd platoon in the U.S. Army. Its like the punchline to some bad joke, and has about as much verisimilitude as Eleventy-thriveth.

It is also very odd hearing "battery" and "armored" paired together the way it is in the OSM. Delta Battery, 3rd Armored Regiment? It's interesting in itself, certainly worth exploring, particularly as indicative of a brand new force. But as part of the U.S. Army? It just sounds garbled, like they got it wrong, instead of whatever they were going for.

Also, the U.S. Army has its regiments split into battalions, so it's missing a battalion designation (e.g. "Delta Battery, 1st Battalion, 5th Field Artillery Regiment", or "D Bat, 1-5 FA").


Seto Kaiba wrote: (If you're going to be inter-operating with, or even subordinate to, an international military, why not make sure your markings are consistent?)
Militaries have been inter-operating for a very long time now without needing identical vehicle marking systems, thank you very much.


Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sgt Anjay wrote:Don't see the problem, and I'm the one who asked what the intent of the markings were in the first place.

Why did you ask the question if you don't want an actual, official and definitive answer?
I did want the answer from the OSM. Now I have it, and can justly critique it. It would be interesting to examine on its own merits, frankly, and especially in the context of a U.N. Spacy or even the U.E.D.F. But I don't see the problem with positing that the U.S. Army would do things like the U.S. Army, instead of the system the Japanese animators came up with.
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Re: What's this symbol?

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

Sgt Anjay wrote:The way the unit is scattered about the vehicle isn't especially egregious, but hearing 7th Platoon...let alone 23? Is that right?

If you consider the other organizational details, it actually does work out numerically... but, like the giant fighting robots themselves, it's not the sort of thing you'd find in the modern US Army. Is it honestly that unreasonable that the military might make some organizational concessions for a completely new type of weapon? (Especially one designed to fight 10m tall infantry...)


Sgt Anjay wrote:It is also very odd hearing "battery" and "armored" paired together the way it is in the OSM. Delta Battery, 3rd Armored Regiment? It's interesting in itself, certainly worth exploring, particularly as indicative of a brand new force.

Please note that those specific markings used in the example are on a UN Spacy destroid attached to the Daedalus. All we can see on the destroyed Tomahawk in the series is 1/2 of the registration number and its platoon markings. Most of the identifying markings are on the back, which we can't see while it's got its back to that building.


Sgt Anjay wrote:Also, the U.S. Army has its regiments split into battalions, so it's missing a battalion designation (e.g. "Delta Battery, 1st Battalion, 5th Field Artillery Regiment", or "D Bat, 1-5 FA").

Common practice, yes... but it doesn't seem to actually be mandatory for marking purposes (at least, in the documents I've been referencing, which are rather old... but then so are a lot of the other practices which appear in a show drafted in '81).


Sgt Anjay wrote:Militaries have been inter-operating for a very long time now without needing identical vehicle marking systems, thank you very much.

True enough... but the giant fighting robots in question are a breed quite apart from what the US military is used to slapping identifying markings on, and since their development and production were undertaken under the auspices of the [UN Government/UE Government], in which the United States was a significant power and founding member, it makes a certain amount of sense that a common marking system heavily influenced by the US would emerge.


Sgt Anjay wrote:I did want the answer from the OSM.

'kay then! I'm sorry I wasn't able to find you a more specific answer to the identity of that second crest... but even the production materials are mute on the subject, beyond that the Destroids in the episode were from a base near what became Trad City in the former northwestern United States.


Sgt Anjay wrote:But I don't see the problem with positing that the U.S. Army would do things like the U.S. Army, instead of the system the Japanese animators came up with.

As a founding power of a supranational government and military, I think they might bend a little... especially since the US Army was likely demoted to the status of a national guard before nations were all reduced to so much irradiated ash.
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Re: What's this symbol?

Unread post by Sgt Anjay »

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sgt Anjay wrote:The way the unit is scattered about the vehicle isn't especially egregious, but hearing 7th Platoon...let alone 23? Is that right?

If you consider the other organizational details, it actually does work out numerically... but, like the giant fighting robots themselves, it's not the sort of thing you'd find in the modern US Army. Is it honestly that unreasonable that the military might make some organizational concessions for a completely new type of weapon? (Especially one designed to fight 10m tall infantry...)
It is not unreasonable that destroid units would require new thinking and force structures. In fact, it is a given, just like helicopters, and tanks, and mechanized infantry, and fixed-wing aircraft, and machine guns, and repeating rifles, and all the many other changes that progress has wrought upon the art of warfare. But that's rather the thing. We can see how militaries have shifted and changed and adapted; that sort of thing is far from unprecedented.

And that's where my disconnect lies. 23 platoons in a company? 7 is weird but not preposterous. 23? In light of the way the U.S. Army has adapted in the past, and given first-hand experience with the Army, trying to draw point A from the modern Army to one with a 23-platoon Battery in an Armored Regiment would result in, at best, confused disbelief rather than make it seem more real, which at the end of the day is the only point to coming up with that sort of in-depth examination of giant robot fiction.


Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sgt Anjay wrote:It is also very odd hearing "battery" and "armored" paired together the way it is in the OSM. Delta Battery, 3rd Armored Regiment? It's interesting in itself, certainly worth exploring, particularly as indicative of a brand new force.

Please note that those specific markings used in the example are on a UN Spacy destroid attached to the Daedalus. All we can see on the destroyed Tomahawk in the series is 1/2 of the registration number and its platoon markings. Most of the identifying markings are on the back, which we can't see while it's got its back to that building.
Well like I said the U.N. Spacy destroid I don't have the same issue with. A "base patch", rather than a unit patch in the U.S. Army? Ehhhh...


Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sgt Anjay wrote:Also, the U.S. Army has its regiments split into battalions, so it's missing a battalion designation (e.g. "Delta Battery, 1st Battalion, 5th Field Artillery Regiment", or "D Bat, 1-5 FA").

Common practice, yes... but it doesn't seem to actually be mandatory for marking purposes (at least, in the documents I've been referencing, which are rather old... but then so are a lot of the other practices which appear in a show drafted in '81).
Well, I'm going off of first-hand experience. What battalion something/someone belongs to is no less important than what company or regiment, and typically rather more important than platoon.


Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sgt Anjay wrote:Militaries have been inter-operating for a very long time now without needing identical vehicle marking systems, thank you very much.

True enough... but the giant fighting robots in question are a breed quite apart from what the US military is used to slapping identifying markings on
Yes, clearly if you use U.S. Army methodology for giant robots they won't work right.

Seto Kaiba wrote: and since their development and production were undertaken under the auspices of the [UN Government/UE Government], in which the United States was a significant power and founding member, it makes a certain amount of sense that a common marking system heavily influenced by the US would emerge.
I wont speak to the OSM, but how big the U.S. was overall in Robotech is debatable. Regardless, when NATO was founded the U.S. was the sole nuclear power on Earth...and lo, oh these many years later, NATO countries still have their own marking systems. Likewise the Warsaw Pact. The E.U. hasn't seemed to have felt the driving need for vehicle marking homogenization.


Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sgt Anjay wrote:I did want the answer from the OSM.

'kay then! I'm sorry I wasn't able to find you a more specific answer to the identity of that second crest... but even the production materials are mute on the subject, beyond that the Destroids in the episode were from a base near what became Trad City in the former northwestern United States.
Your answer was very informative, in a number of ways. Thanks.


Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sgt Anjay wrote:But I don't see the problem with positing that the U.S. Army would do things like the U.S. Army, instead of the system the Japanese animators came up with.

As a founding power of a supranational government and military, I think they might bend a little... especially since the US Army was likely demoted to the status of a national guard before nations were all reduced to so much irradiated ash.
The possible status of the U.S. Army is a separate issue, since I agree the U.S. Army would adapt. As it has and continues to do. That doesn't mean what Japanese animators came up with actually fits the U.S. Army in ways that ring true. And that's really what I'm saying; that system lacks verisimilitude to someone with a level of personal experience on the topic.
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Re: What's this symbol?

Unread post by guardiandashi »

one thing a lot of people seem to forget is in some ways destroid and veritech organization seems to me to be reverting to more of an infantry rather than armored vehicle model, and in that case large numbers of squads/platoons might make more sense.
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Re: What's this symbol?

Unread post by Jefffar »

Armoured formations have the same number of platoons as infantry. Infantry forces have more units below the platoon level though.
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Re: What's this symbol?

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

Sgt Anjay wrote:And that's where my disconnect lies. 23 platoons in a company? 7 is weird but not preposterous. 23?

Oh, I agree it's beyond strange... to the extent that I think it's probably the result of some animator over at Tatsunoko not reading the model sheets properly. On the line art, we never see a Destroid that has a platoon number higher than 7. Based on dialog and the org charts, the largest unit with a size that gets explicitly mentioned should only have had eight platoons (小隊)... though that was actually a VF unit that had been glutted with new recruits.* Eight is, IIRC, the arbitrary maximum number of platoons that you are supposed to have in a Company-sized formation.

(Indeed, because of this line of discussion, I'm starting to suspect the Macross Compendium's translation of the Tomahawk formation chart has errors... )



[size=75]* Robotech (mis)translated this term to mean "Squadron", because it actually refers to a level of organization that doesn't formally exist in western fighter squadrons... a subdivision of a Flight consisting of 2-4 aircraft. Sort of an in-the-field mentoring practice and formalized group of wingmen... you'd be most familiar with Vermilion Platoon from the series, which was one such team operating in the organization of Skull Squadron. Yes, the term written and spoken in Japanese IS "Platoon" (小隊) rather than an infantry squad (分隊) or fireteam (班).
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Re: What's this symbol?

Unread post by Tim Wing »

So (leaving the markings on the US Army Tomahawk alone... we'll have to agree to disagree on that one) I'm trying to construct an order of battle for the Destroids on the Daedalus...

As best as I can tell, the animation sheets are a little vague on what number stands for what...

We can all pretty much agree that the triangular torch symbol stands for the ship affiliation... or possibly just the unit specifically assigned to that ship. Functionally the same thing though. If the "1st UN Spacy Marine Expeditionary Corps" is the only unit assigned to the Daedalus, always has been and always will be (sic) then it make little difference...

Lets look at what numbers we have on each Destroid:

Tomahawk
D7
^3^
diamond 14
upside down triangle
D210194

Defender
G3
^5^
triangle 05
Vee
D108231

Spartan
O2
^7^
triangle 18
nothing
D330517

Phalanx
S7
^10^
triangle 22
Vee and Triangle
Big "M"
D229194

Monster
02

Now, assuming we have a more or less traditional force structure:

Individual mecha
Squad, Team or section
Platoon
Company
Battalion
Regiment or Brigade
Division or ship affiliation

How do we make these fit?
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Re: What's this symbol?

Unread post by slade the sniper »

taalismn wrote:It's the symbol of the Dinochrome Brigade's toddler cousins. :D

Awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Re: What's this symbol?

Unread post by Tim Wing »

Okay, force structure for the Destroids on the Daedalus explained... as best as I can.

http://www.robotechillustrated.com/un-s ... -regiment/
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