So, how to add the Tirolean border fleet to robotech?

[mech798]

From the robotech technical files. COMPLETELY non-canon, be it the original material or robotech itself, but I like the look and design. So what would be the best way to import them-- secret designs by the robotech masters*, or ships produced by the REF and not put into general production for some reason.


*while not canon, I think they honestly make sense for the masters, for the simple reason that you have a bunch of paranoid control freaks with a VASTLY larger army of slave-soldiers. It makes sense to keep some qualitatively better ships around that sit between the corvette and mothership in size.

[glitterboy2098]

the UEEF spent a bunch of time working their way to and then fighting their way across the master's empire before encountering the Regent's invid.. at least going by what is suggested in various parts of the RPG's material, and the prelude comics. enough so that the whole war with the regent occured after the master's had been defeated at earth, if i've gotten my timeline cues worked out right.

so whatever ships you give the master's for the defense of their empire, the UEEF and their zent allies had several years of planet hopping around the master's empire to give a chance to fight them.

[Seto Kaiba]

So, how to add the Tirolean border fleet to robotech?

"Very carefully".

Non-helpful answers aside... there are plenty of options. Make 'em a rogue group of Tirolians who were opposed to the old Masters, or a military unit from the old Tirolian military that got cut off from their empire by the Invid and had to fight their way back (and are understandably a little triggerhappy after the fact), or even a literal Zentradi-based "border patrol" for the Tirolian empire.

[taalismn]

*while not canon, I think they honestly make sense for the masters, for the simple reason that you have a bunch of paranoid control freaks with a VASTLY larger army of slave-soldiers. It makes sense to keep some qualitatively better ships around that sit between the corvette and mothership in size.

Remote outposts, small border worlds cut off by the fall of the empire, and the fleet commanders rushing to make do with depleted energy supplies, possible subservient/cooperative/hostile native populations, and leery of anybody who comes into their space afterwards(Alien invaders? Scavengers from other parts of the empire?). The border fleets could be experimenting with conversion to other forms of power/propulsion as well.

You can also have non-Tirolian worlds with ruined border fleet ships on their planets serving as oasises...or the more technologically advanced worlds can be repeating the SDF-1 experience by rebuilding the derelicts into their first starships.

[mech798]

Well the big advantage is that the ships are generally more powerful, using a higher precentatge of high quality mecha. so it's possible taht they're the Zentraedi equivelant of marines or a Republican Guard. Maybe they were origionally intended to explore well beyond the borders of the empire, and as such didn't need the extensive logistics support mainline ships did.

And of course alternately, they could be in the factory sattellite (seriously, as per the earlier thread, that thing is HUGE when you consdier that it's hollow and filled with rooms. Easily equal to a number of worlds in terms of square footage.).

"You found an entire fleet in a BROOM CLOSET?!"

"What can I say, the Zentraedi have some big closets."

[ShadowLogan]

From the robotech technical files. COMPLETELY non-canon, be it the original material or robotech itself, but I like the look and design. So what would be the best way to import them-- secret designs by the robotech masters*, or ships produced by the REF and not put into general production for some reason.


*while not canon, I think they honestly make sense for the masters, for the simple reason that you have a bunch of paranoid control freaks with a VASTLY larger army of slave-soldiers. It makes sense to keep some qualitatively better ships around that sit between the corvette and mothership in size.

Several things have to be considered, but it should be possible as others have stated:
A. Time Frame of Contact. This can put requirements on their supporting hardware they use. To early and they might not be able to utilize bioroids for example to maintain continuity. The easiest solution IF using them then is to avoid giving them standard RM hardware and outfit them with their own unique designs (or unique enough to not be recognizable back on Earth).
B. This sort of ties in with A, but how much communication do you have going on between the REF/UEEF in deep space and the UEDF/ASC back on Earth. And would either party keep secret information about contacts from the other.
C. Per the show they may be something to them though in a roundabout way both from the Masters Saga* and Macross Saga** dialogue, granted here the naming could be different depending on the instance.
D. The specific scenario you consider with using them may have additional things to consider.
E. The overall condition of the boarder fleet itself. PC in the Zent. and Masters fleets are known to be fairly low, so the Boarder Fleet should be in similar position even if they are "elite".
F. What hardware do they use. Do they have any unique hardware or is it just run of the mill standard stuff. As mentioned before with pt-A

*If interested in what I'm thinking of: Space Pirates (less likely as dialogue establishes they don't use Robotechnology) and the mutant micronized Zentreadi that Bioroid pilots are mistaken for per the autopsy presentation.
**Two instances, one concerns the history of the Zentreadi having evolved to their current state, so there could be other evolutionary off shoots (as suggested in TRM saga), the other is in Ep36 when Gloval references "Robotech Forces" in retreat (while he might be referencing Khyron, he might not be). Of course they might also work for the DoZ reference to depending on how you set things up.

[Chris0013]

Along the same lines but on a separate tangent....How many Masters/Zentraedi ships are still out there...we saw Reno's fleet guarding the Factory Satellite....is there a fleet per satellite? Would it be strictly Zentraedi ships? Mixed Zentraedi/Masters in some cases? Strictly Master's ships in other cases? And how many Factory Satellites are out there to be found?

[mech798]

Along the same lines but on a separate tangent....How many Masters/Zentraedi ships are still out there...we saw Reno's fleet guarding the Factory Satellite....is there a fleet per satellite? Would it be strictly Zentraedi ships? Mixed Zentraedi/Masters in some cases? Strictly Master's ships in other cases? And how many Factory Satellites are out there to be found?

That's really unknown-- the implication from HG is that there are no zentreadi left-- and (I believe) unlike the OSM Macross there aren't a lot of factory satellites-- that the one recovered by the UEEF may be one of only a very few. The RPG leaves the possibiilty that there could be thousands of ships still out there.

[taalismn]

"You found an entire fleet in a BROOM CLOSET?!"

"What can I say, the Zentraedi have some big closets."

"And you should see what they left in the fridge...or maybe not. We lost a squad cleaning out the vegetable tray..."

[ShadowLogan]

Along the same lines but on a separate tangent....How many Masters/Zentraedi ships are still out there...we saw Reno's fleet guarding the Factory Satellite....is there a fleet per satellite? Would it be strictly Zentraedi ships? Mixed Zentraedi/Masters in some cases? Strictly Master's ships in other cases? And how many Factory Satellites are out there to be found?

That's really unknown-- the implication from HG is that there are no zentreadi left-- and (I believe) unlike the OSM Macross there aren't a lot of factory satellites-- that the one recovered by the UEEF may be one of only a very few. The RPG leaves the possibiilty that there could be thousands of ships still out there.

I'm not sure that HG's portrayal of no Zentreadi left is necessarily accurate or even in-line w/the show. It might be accurate in the sense of Dolza's Zentreadi. But recall that dialogue exists that opens up the possibility for Zentreadi offshoots that could realistically use completely separate hardware desings to be distinct enough to avoid OSM baggage (however said designs would have to be created).

Ep31 Gloval: "... and so the great Robotech civilization collapsed cought in the cross fire of the fighting giants they had created and those giants evolved into the Zentraedi " (giants are said to have evolved into the Zentreadi, so those giants might have other off-shoots IF we take the statement at face value)

Ep45 (suggests the possibility of additional distinct Zentreadi off shoots)
-Leonard: "Its obvious what's happened here these aliens or at least their clones are nothing less than a barbaric strain of micronized Zentraedi who where scattered throughout the universe only now they have returned to reak havoc on the inhabitants of this planet "
-Dana: "...hey insist that the bioroid pilots are cloned from mutant Zentraedi "

[mech798]

Of coures one interesting thing is Lang's claim that they were building ships that could destroy earth-- even if we allow for some hyperbole on Lang's part, the implication was that the ships being built were different (and more powerful) than anything yet seen, but they were never referred to again.

[glitterboy2098]

exodor's claim actually.. and one has to wonder how he knew what they were doing in the first place, given there would be zero contact between the earth and it. i suspect that statement he made was hyperbole, something intended to get the UEG to go and capture the factory, which they probably would not have been interested in otherwise.

[mech798]

exodor's claim actually.. and one has to wonder how he knew what they were doing in the first place, given there would be zero contact between the earth and it. i suspect that statement he made was hyperbole, something intended to get the UEG to go and capture the factory, which they probably would not have been interested in otherwise.

Yeah. If I wanted to do it as anything more than fluff it might be that he was worried that the robotech masters would allow the inclusion of main guns in more zentraedi ships.

[ShadowLogan]

Then again Exeedore's statement could be the basis of communication intercepts. We aren't sure how the RFS was "spotted".

Dialogue statement doesn't make one thing of adding "Main Guns" to Zentreadi ships.

Exeedore (Ep29): yesterday we finally spotted the Zentreadi automated Robotech Factory Satellite within the Satellite are being constructed space cruisers large enough to destroy the Earth with a single blast (shocked gasps) yes it is a terrible thing

Now we could debate what "destroy the Earth" and "single blast" actually constitute. Is it just render more of the Earth uninhabitable from their limited scope (at this point not to hard to do) from the fleet, or is each ship capable of doing this. Those cruisers' Exeedore mentions could even be N-S missiles that where seen in NG (granted this requires a lot of changes to the currently accepted back story on the weapons), and it isn't like TMS doesn't have something in the animation that might not be thought of as them either.

[mech798]

Yeah-- hius statement could be read as anything from a literal statement that the new designs are some sort of zentraedi death star (which isn't backed up by anything else) to a simple exaggeration to get the point across that "we really don't want to leave this station lying around for a few years, m'kay?"

[Seto Kaiba]

Yeah-- hius statement could be read as anything from a literal statement that the new designs are some sort of zentraedi death star [...]

You rang?

[eliakon]

Yeah-- hius statement could be read as anything from a literal statement that the new designs are some sort of zentraedi death star [...]

You rang?

Cute its a micronized baby death star, just what the world needs

[glitterboy2098]

thankfully it is not canon for robotech, so purely optional if you want to use it.

[Seto Kaiba]

thankfully it is not canon for robotech, so purely optional if you want to use it.

Probably massively OP for Robotech anyway... considering its first appearance in Macross saw Boddole Zer's sink tens of thousands of ships and another mobile fortress of similar size in one shot, before managing to briefly hold off a joint fleet numbering in the millions.

Still, considering the scale of weapons in Robotech, I'd avoid giving any faction in the setting a warship or class of same that could destroy a planet in one shot. Palladium short-sells human ships badly enough without any outside intervention, so throwing them up against something that makes even the canon Zentradi ships look distinctly anemic is probably really bad.

[eliakon]

thankfully it is not canon for robotech, so purely optional if you want to use it.

Probably massively OP for Robotech anyway... considering its first appearance in Macross saw Boddole Zer's sink tens of thousands of ships and another mobile fortress of similar size in one shot, before managing to briefly hold off a joint fleet numbering in the millions.

Still, considering the scale of weapons in Robotech, I'd avoid giving any faction in the setting a warship or class of same that could destroy a planet in one shot. Palladium short-sells human ships badly enough without any outside intervention, so throwing them up against something that makes even the canon Zentradi ships look distinctly anemic is probably really bad.

Considering the energy requirements (and the energy outputs) for a weapon to actually destroy a planet in one shot.....its pretty much a bad idea for most settings....Though Star Wars does at least have the decency to make the weapon the size of a decent sized moon.

[ShadowLogan]

Yeah-- hius statement could be read as anything from a literal statement that the new designs are some sort of zentraedi death star (which isn't backed up by anything else) to a simple exaggeration to get the point across that "we really don't want to leave this station lying around for a few years, m'kay?"

Well RT does have the N-S missiles now that can destroy a planet in a single blast in canon. Sure its a one use only weapon, but they are apparently possible in RT.

And it should be noted that the Zentreadi:
-did go all Death Star on the Planet Pamir in "Blind Game". Admittedly Pamir is at best a Dwarf Planet, and more likely a Minor Planet (Asteroid), so isn't in the same league as Earth in terms of size
-the Grand Fleet is also said to have the destructive force of a small nova, so while not single shotting a planet, if the statement is accurate then given enough time to volley the GF could reduce the planet to literal dust

[Seto Kaiba]

Well RT does have the N-S missiles now that can destroy a planet in a single blast in canon. Sure its a one use only weapon, but they are apparently possible in RT.

Yeah, but that's different... that depends on a warhead packed with neutron star matter, and the warhead not being intercepted, which is a bit more problematic than just going all Death Star on a planet.

-did go all Death Star on the Planet Pamir in "Blind Game". Admittedly Pamir is at best a Dwarf Planet, and more likely a Minor Planet (Asteroid), so isn't in the same league as Earth in terms of size

Considering when it's encountered, it has to be a near-Earth object... probably one of the Earth-crosser asteroids like 4581 Asclepius, meaning it's probably only a few hundred meters across. Even Ceres, the nearest dwarf planet to Earth, is too far away to be a candidate by a least 1AU. Thus, that's probably not a great demonstration of capability.

-the Grand Fleet is also said to have the destructive force of a small nova, so while not single shotting a planet, if the statement is accurate then given enough time to volley the GF could reduce the planet to literal dust

Yeah, but that's the combined efforts of five million ships and more than one barrage... a far cry from one-shotting a world like Earth, the way the ships the factory satellite is allegedly building could, or the Boddole Zer-type mobile fortress could (with a super dimension energy cannon large enough to park Phobos in the barrel).

[ShadowLogan]

Yeah, but that's different... that depends on a warhead packed with neutron star matter, and the warhead not being intercepted, which is a bit more problematic than just going all Death Star on a planet.

Well these are ships, and the warhead (given the size in NG) could have self-defense capabilities to prevent interception. And there is no reason the Zent. version has to be as under protected as the UEEF (who only now seem to realize the value of point-defense built in).

onsidering when it's encountered, it has to be a near-Earth object... probably one of the Earth-crosser asteroids like 4581 Asclepius, meaning it's probably only a few hundred meters across. Even Ceres, the nearest dwarf planet to Earth, is too far away to be a candidate by a least 1AU. Thus, that's probably not a great demonstration of capability.

I agree it is an Asteroid, but dialogue establishes it as a planet. Which technically an asteroid is, given they are can also be known as Minor Planet and with the adjective dropped you get Planet. Much like how Pluto is now a Dwarf Planet, but in dialogue (which when it was written would be accurate) is a Planet. Basically RT did away with the adjective.

It may not be an Earth crosser, the SDF-1 was ordered away from Earth so it could be in the Asteroid Belt by that time depending on certain factors. Size wise it is depicted (and can be inturpretted as) closer in size to Zentreadi ships.

Yeah, but that's the combined efforts of five million ships and more than one barrage... a far cry from one-shotting a world like Earth, the way the ships the factory satellite is allegedly building could, or the Boddole Zer-type mobile fortress could (with a super dimension energy cannon large enough to park Phobos in the barrel).

Agree, but there are a variety of things to consider here:
-is the "single blast" meant as a combined volley from the ships under construction or individual.
-what was meant by the level of destruction, nova/deathstar might not be the implied level since Earth wasn't in the best shape after all, and "First Contact" has the Zentreadi destroy the surface of that world w/the demo of Zent. power. that could certainly qualify to destroy the Earth (not Deathstar/Nova level, but Earth would look like Mercury or the Moon after the event) in a single blast w/o getting into overkill
-we don't even know if the ships are supposed to be re-useable or really nothing more than over-sized missiles (like the N-S missile). We don't even know if the ships are to be crewed or automated.

[Seto Kaiba]

It may not be an Earth crosser, the SDF-1 was ordered away from Earth so it could be in the Asteroid Belt by that time depending on certain factors.

The episode we see it in is shortly before the ship returns to Earth... it's very doubtful it's as far out as Mars or the asteroid belt. That makes it unlikely the object is more than a few hundred meters across.

Agree, but there are a variety of things to consider here:
-is the "single blast" meant as a combined volley from the ships under construction or individual.

Since they said "single blast" rather than "single barrage" or "single bombardment", I would assume they mean one actual shot...

-what was meant by the level of destruction, nova/deathstar might not be the implied level since Earth wasn't in the best shape after all, and "First Contact" has the Zentreadi destroy the surface of that world w/the demo of Zent. power. that could certainly qualify to destroy the Earth (not Deathstar/Nova level, but Earth would look like Mercury or the Moon after the event) in a single blast w/o getting into overkill

If it's one ship doing the damage in one barrage or one shot, it's probably the "it exploded the planet" variety, since a single ship wouldn't be able to hit the entire surface of the Earth at once.

[eliakon]

It may not be an Earth crosser, the SDF-1 was ordered away from Earth so it could be in the Asteroid Belt by that time depending on certain factors.

The episode we see it in is shortly before the ship returns to Earth... it's very doubtful it's as far out as Mars or the asteroid belt. That makes it unlikely the object is more than a few hundred meters across.

Agree, but there are a variety of things to consider here:
-is the "single blast" meant as a combined volley from the ships under construction or individual.

Since they said "single blast" rather than "single barrage" or "single bombardment", I would assume they mean one actual shot...

Or they just are being hyperbolic in their language, or using a figure of speech, or consider a volley to be a blast or.....
*shrugs* lots of ways to look at something as imprecise as this....not that it really matters

-what was meant by the level of destruction, nova/deathstar might not be the implied level since Earth wasn't in the best shape after all, and "First Contact" has the Zentreadi destroy the surface of that world w/the demo of Zent. power. that could certainly qualify to destroy the Earth (not Deathstar/Nova level, but Earth would look like Mercury or the Moon after the event) in a single blast w/o getting into overkill

If it's one ship doing the damage in one barrage or one shot, it's probably the "it exploded the planet" variety, since a single ship wouldn't be able to hit the entire surface of the Earth at once.

Which just calls back into question if it is one ship, and if its just one shot....

*notes that the assumptions are starting to chase themselves in circles here*

[mech798]

I think the big thing, using the cartoon is to note that A. those ships are never used by the REF. 2. The only wepaons that could even come close to destroying a world would have been the Neutron S Missiles. TBH, before shadow Chronicles, I figured those might have been the weapons exadore was speaking of, just held in reserve.

[ShadowLogan]

The episode we see it in is shortly before the ship returns to Earth... it's very doubtful it's as far out as Mars or the asteroid belt. That makes it unlikely the object is more than a few hundred meters across.

The distance the SDF-1 crosses from "Pluto" to Saturn is very fast, and that distance is much larger than the size of the entire inner solar system. So if the SDF-1 wanted to it can move really fast.

Also you are neglecting time dilatation factor involved w/the HSF operation just from those episodes.

Since they said "single blast" rather than "single barrage" or "single bombardment", I would assume they mean one actual shot...

I wouldn't. "single blast" can also indicate an explosion as opposed to an actual shot.

If it's one ship doing the damage in one barrage or one shot, it's probably the "it exploded the planet" variety, since a single ship wouldn't be able to hit the entire surface of the Earth at once.

It doesn't need to hit the entire surface at once though, Earth isn't in the best shape. The Ship doesn't need to hit the entire surface to have a global impact.

[jaymz]

I used them essentially as a true border fleet to keep minor Invid incursions or other presently unknown forces at bay. I also had them suffer the same issues as the main Zentraedi and Tirolian forces with the running out of protoculture.

As for heading to Tirol...I had the REF (screw this UEEF nonsense) find habitable worlds and encounter the odd Tirolian/Zentraedi outpost.